Heinz 57 Lab/retriever type puppy - where to get one?

DBB

Just to clear one thing up op. There are a fair few people in Ireland who are significantly more qualified in animal behaviour than most vets are (some vets have formally studied the area post grad, some haven't but have boned up on it, often having learned what they know through working with behaviourists!). I cannot emphasise enough to you... The veterinary science degree does not qualify the vet as an animal behaviourist in any way. No more than a medical degree qualifies a doctor to be a psychiatrist. I have a science degree, but that doesn't make me a physicist... I didn't do physics. Similarly, vet students don't do behaviour unless they volunteer to go to the non-compulsory lectures. And we're only talking a handful of lectures here.

Also, I will add a caveat, because people are posting that their older dogs are great with younger dogs etc. When your dogs like other dogs, and are used to other dogs joining the group (as are all of the above examples, they all have multi-dog households), it is an entirely different scenario to yours, where you have a dog who has lived as an only dog all her life (save for brief visits from the terrier) and she has shown she's not that mad about other dogs.
So, I'm just saying to be careful because you're not comparing like with like.
Now, I'm not saying it won't work, not at all. I'm just trying to encourage you to go in with eyes wide open

DBB

BenEadir wrote: »

That's an interesting point. Are you suggesting the results he (at least appears) to achieve are somehow related to the fact there is a camera crew present? Did the TV show not get offered to him because of what he was already doing?

I'll just leave these here, links to articles and sites by people who, unlike Milan, have actually studied dog behaviour properly.
The first link is to a site that was created especially to educate people about the dangers of using Milan's ideology, which is hocus-pocus.
I'm leaving it there now. Have a read of the below, I hope it helps you to understand where you're going wrong.

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/caninedominance

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

Toulouse

BenEadir wrote: »

Hi FlowerGarden,

Apologies if my replies are coming across to you as sarcastic, that is not my intention.

I challenged the following statement from ShaShaBear "No offence OP but I would not be listening to a vets advice on this matter, they are not usually known for their expertise in behavioural quarters.

There are many more qualified people who post on this forum who will be able to advise."

I thought totally dismissing the input of a vet was a strange attitude to have but was interested to engage with the "many more qualified" people on here. I'm more than happy to take input from people with experience as many of the posters who have been kind enough to share their own experience have but "more qualified" than a vet is a different matter and so far, unless I'm missing something, I haven't seen any input whatsoever from anyone more qualified than a vet.

It's easy for people to dismiss someone who actually has a high level of relevant qualifications but to do so in favour of many more qualified people who don't seem to even exist in Ireland (if there's no such training here) needs to questioned and that's what I was doing.

I don't want to derail the thread with this but I find it really annoying when people make uninformed claims they can't stand over.

I'll think you'll find that was my post that you've incorrectly attributed to ShaShaBear.

I also think you'll find that on the behavioural front DBB is more qualified than the vast majority of vets so I was not making an uninformed claim and apologies if you were annoyed

That coupled with your outdated references to pack hierarchy inclined me to point out that your vet and indeed your opinion based on your own research might not be leading you to make the best decision for your own dog. Despite your vets age you have already been told the the behaviour segment of the veterinary course is non-examinable or are you just choosing to ignore that?

I also told you where you would find a pup should you choose to go ahead with it but really I wanted you to consider your own dogs welfare first before you jump in!

BenEadir

DBB wrote: »

So, I'm just saying to be careful because you're not comparing like with like.
Now, I'm not saying it won't work, not at all. I'm just trying to encourage you to go in with eyes wide open

Thanks DBB, I really appreciate your input.

Many years ago I had two Yorkies (a brother and sister) and they were a psychological nightmare. They thought they were a hunting pack. I couldn't walk them together as they'd attack anything and everything, the bigger the better. Ended up having to walk them separately. People thought I was great for taking "the dog" for a one hour walk before work. I rarely had the heart to tell them I was actually walking two dog's one after the other. I lost a lot of weight at that time so there's always an upside

BenEadir

DBB wrote: »

I'll just leave these here, links to articles and sites by people who, unlike Milan, have actually studied dog behaviour properly.
The first link is to a site that was created especially to educate people about the dangers of using Milan's ideology, which is hocus-pocus.
I'm leaving it there now, as I too am getting a bit of a sarky tone from your replies to other posters. Have a read of the below, I hope it helps you to understand where you're going wrong.

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/caninedominance

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

I can understand the professional ridicule for yer man Milan, he's self taught/has a 'natural' talent and gets huge popular media kudos without having earned any official credentials but from the small number of times I've seen him in action (which I assume is edited highlights) he does seem to produce results owners and their dog's are happy with. I don't know if it's all smoke and mirrors or if the results last but what he does seems to work even if the methodology employed is outdated or unorthodox.

Thanks for the links. I'll read up on the info over the weekend.

borderlinemeath

BenEadir wrote: »

That's an interesting point. Are you suggesting the results he (at least appears) to achieve are somehow related to the fact there is a camera crew present? Did the TV show not get offered to him because of what he was already doing?

The results he gets are by force. He will bully, hit, kick and "alpha roll" the dogs into a position where they're so fearful they just shut down and give in. This gives the impression that he's won the battle, but all he's actually done is scare the bejesus out of the dog. The dog doesn't forget the behaviour that Milan is trying to modify and eventually if the forceful methods and tones are continually used, the dog can snap and do real damage. Look closely at Milan, he's covered in dog bites. Properly qualified behaviourists use what's called a "hands off" approach, there's no force used, and the contact is usually when a treat is handed over or a reassuring ear rub.

Don't forget the shows are heavily edited, and throughout all the shows the message flashes up on screen "Don't try this at home" because it's so dangerous.

Here's another link that might explain it better than I can.

http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance

BenEadir

Toulouse wrote: »

I'll think you'll find that was my post that you've incorrectly attributed to ShaShaBear.

Apologies ShaShaBear

Toulouse wrote: »

I also think you'll find that on the behavioural front DBB is more qualified than the vast majority of vets so I was not making an uninformed claim and apologies if you were annoyed

DBB certainly projects authority on the matter and I'm delighted with the steer he's given me. His input is thought provoking and will help me make the most informed decision I can.

I'm not annoyed with you any more, all is forgiven

borderlinemeath

BenEadir wrote: »

Thanks DBB, I really appreciate your input.

Many years ago I had two Yorkies (a brother and sister) and they were a psychological nightmare. They thought they were a hunting pack. I couldn't walk them together as they'd attack anything and everything, the bigger the better. Ended up having to walk them separately. People thought I was great for taking "the dog" for a one hour walk before work. I rarely had the heart to tell them I was actually walking two dog's one after the other. I lost a lot of weight at that time so there's always an upside

That would be littermate syndrome at it's finest. Another bit of weekend reading for you!

http://thehappypuppysite.com/puppy-search-13-one-puppy-or-two/

DBB

BenEadir wrote: »

I can understand the professional ridicule for yer man Milan, he's self taught/has a 'natural' talent and gets huge popular media kudos without having earned any official credentials but from the small number of times I've seen him in action (which I assume is edited highlights) he does seem to produce results owners and their dog's are happy with. I don't know if it's all smoke and mirrors or if the results last but what he does seems to work even if the methodology employed is outdated or unorthodox.

Thanks for the links. I'll read up on the info over the weekend.

I'm sorry, I'm not going to say any more than this as it's been done time and again here. Suffice to say you have answered your own questions with talk of editing, smoke and mirrors, and "appears to work". The cases that make it to tv are just that... The cases that appeared to work. I can 100% assure you that whatever about the owners, the dogs are most certainly not happy. Funny how he never does follow-up shows.
He has been called out on it many, many times. You tube has plenty of videos showing the off-camera abuse.
Luckily, many owners are getting wise to him now that the science has caught up with his jiggery pokery

DBB

BenEadir wrote: »

Apologies ShaShaBear

DBB certainly projects authority on the matter and I'm delighted with the steer he's given me. His input is thought provoking and will help me make the most informed decision I can.

I'm not annoyed with you any more, all is forgiven

*she

BenEadir

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Properly qualified behaviourists use what's called a "hands off" approach, there's no force used, and the contact is usually when a treat is handed over or a reassuring ear rub.

I have to say I too don't believe there is any role for the "stick" to play when it comes to training my own dogs over the years. Slowly encouraging and rewarding good behaviour with treats and physical attention (rubbing the ears, patting the ribs or playing fetch with their favourite ball/toy) in my opinion produces the right attitude in the dog and they then behave well because they want to. If you force any animal (or person for that matter) to behave in a particular way out of fear of being hit/abused if they don't behave as required it will eventually backfire on you.

BenEadir

DBB wrote: »

*she

Even more now.

BenEadir

borderlinemeath wrote: »

That would be littermate syndrome at it's finest. Another bit of weekend reading for you!

http://thehappypuppysite.com/puppy-search-13-one-puppy-or-two/

Why oh why wasn't I on Boards back in 2000? That article is like a short bio of exactly what I went through. My wife went to collect a Yorkie X pup from a litter the owners wanted rid of (I've always had and always will have rescued/unwanted dogs, it's just my preference) and ended up bringing home the last two. Little did she know how it would turn out!!

peasant

I think that between vets and behaviourists we have a few crossed wires here

If an older dog and a pup have to be brought together (to live together ever after) it is advantageous if the pup is as young as possible (2-4 months).

At that age young dogs are most susceptible to being "educated" by other dogs. They will be submissive, open to directions and will pick up the house rules in no time at all. They are hard-wired for doing so at that age.
An older pup (or even worse a "teenager") might already have pre-formed ideas on how things are supposed to work and might clash more or less violently with the established dog.
So in the ideal situation you either introduce a very young pup that can easily be moulded by the established dog or an adult dog that has been tried and tested to get along with the established dog.
A rowdy (and potentially badly socialised) pup of 6 - 18 months (depending on breed) would be the worst choice.

As for the age of the established dog ...as long as the dog isn't infirm, in pain or otherwise handicapped, age really doesn't matter. The younger the established dog the higher the chances that it will revert to near puppy behaviour for some time or at least be playful with the new arrival. The older the established dog the higher the likelihood of just quiet tolerance without much play.
An old dog might still surprise you by getting a new lease of life and becoming all young and playful again or a younger adult dog by all of a sudden wanting a quiet life ...but that's down to the individual personality of the dogs and hard to predict beforehand.


But in no case do you introduce a young pup to an established dog that has "issues" and is difficult to handle and control ...because by adding a pup you will instantly have two difficult dogs and four times the trouble

BenEadir

peasant wrote: »

I think that between vets and behaviourists we have a few crossed wires here

If an older dog and a pup have to be brought together (to live together ever after) it is advantageous if the pup is as young as possible (2-4 months).

At that age young dogs are most susceptible to being "educated" by other dogs. They will be submissive, open to directions and will pick up the house rules in no time at all. They are hard-wired for doing so at that age.
An older pup (or even worse a "teenager") might already have pre-formed ideas on how things are supposed to work and might clash more or less violently with the established dog.
So in the ideal situation you either introduce a very young pup that can easily be moulded by the established dog or an adult dog that has been tried and tested to get along with the established dog.
A rowdy (and potentially badly socialised) pup of 6 - 18 months (depending on breed) would be the worst choice.

As for the age of the established dog ...as long as the dog isn't infirm, in pain or otherwise handicapped, age really doesn't matter. The younger the established dog the higher the chances that it will revert to near puppy behaviour for some time or at least be playful with the new arrival. The older the established dog the higher the likelihood of just quiet tolerance without much play.
An old dog might still surprise you by getting a new lease of life and becoming all young and playful again or a younger adult dog by all of a sudden wanting a quiet life ...but that's down to the individual personality of the dogs and hard to predict beforehand.


But in no case do you introduce a young pup to an established dog that has "issues" and is difficult to handle and control ...because by adding a pup you will instantly have two difficult dogs and four times the trouble

^^^^ This is EXACTLY the outcome I'm hoping for. Introduce a very young (8-10 week) old pup to my 10 year old very well behaved dog who isn't a pushover and will assert itself if it has to but has never attacked or bitten any other dog including adult dogs brought into the house which could have been seen as threatening her territory.

cjf

As mentioned loads here if unsure how your existing dog will feel about a new pup please foster first to make sure. While a rescue will take back a dog or pup that does not work out in a new home for an unforeseen reason this sometimes encourages people to just 'give it a try' as they know if it doesn't work they can give the dog back. This scenario is so unfair on the adopted dog as having already ending up in rescue they have to undergo another huge change going to a new home only to have to go through all that change again when being returned. This boomerang trend with rescue dogs is so upsetting to see and really can have a negative effect on the dog.

BenEadir

cjf wrote: »

As mentioned loads here if unsure how your existing dog will feel about a new pup please foster first to make sure. While a rescue will take back a dog or pup that does not work out in a new home for an unforeseen reason this sometimes encourages people to just 'give it a try' as they know if it doesn't work they can give the dog back. This scenario is so unfair on the adopted dog as having already ending up in rescue they have to undergo another huge change going to a new home only to have to go through all that change again when being returned. This boomerang trend with rescue dogs is so upsetting to see and really can have a negative effect on the dog.

I actually agree with you and I'm considering going the fostering route but if you work through the logic of my situation it really doesn't matter whether I formally "Foster" and give the pup back if it doesn't work out or "Adopt" and then give it back if it doesn't work out does it? Same end result of the pup having to return to the rescue centre after a few days/weeks of settling in to what could/should be it's new home.

Believe me, handing back the pup (whether I've initially fostered it or formally adopted it) is the last thing I'd like to do, it would be bad for the pup, bad for my dog and bad for my family.

Toulouse

BenEadir wrote: »

I actually agree with you and I'm considering going the fostering route but if you work through the logic of my situation it really doesn't matter whether I formally "Foster" and give the pup back if it doesn't work out or "Adopt" and then give it back if it doesn't work out does it? Same end result of the pup having to return to the rescue centre after a few days/weeks of settling in to what could/should be it's new home.

Believe me, handing back the pup (whether I've initially fostered it or formally adopted it) is the last thing I'd like to do, it would be bad for the pup, bad for my dog and bad for my family.

Actually, it kinda does!

If you foster then the pup continues to be advertised as needing a home with the rescue and potential homes can be vetted.

If you adopt then the pup is marked as rehomed. If you then return that pup you may not think it but when potential adopters see a pup being returned, for whatever reason, it can make it much harder to rehome that pup.

In your situation, where you have to take your existing dogs welfare into account, fostering is a much better avenue, it saves you messing the rescue around and the pup missing out on a potential home when you are really trying to suck it and see.

BenEadir

Toulouse wrote: »

Actually, it kinda does!

If you foster then the pup continues to be advertised as needing a home with the rescue and potential homes can be vetted.

If you adopt then the pup is marked as rehomed. If you then return that pup you may not think it but when potential adopters see a pup being returned, for whatever reason, it can make it much harder to rehome that pup.

In your situation, where you have to take your existing dogs welfare into account, fostering is a much better avenue, it saves you messing the rescue around and the pup missing out on a potential home when you are really trying to suck it and see.

Thanks Toulouse, I hadn't thought through that level of detail. I was thinking that the pup wouldn't be able to tell the difference!

cjf

If you do decide to foster and then end up adopting the pup it's one less move for the pup which is great for puppy -Most fosterers will take in another dog when their foster finds what they are hoping is their forever home and they may not be available to take the puppy back which could mean another strange foster home until a new family can be found. Great you are considering the foster route as your own girl might essentially be the one who decides if a puppy going to work! I have fostered young puppies and found that my two adult dogs are much happier with pups 5/6 months + . I wouldn't have known that without fostering :-)

sillysmiles

Question: The OP has said that they hope that their existing dog would rub off on the new dog (paraphrasing) but does that happen and in what format? Is it a training thing in that recall etc is improved with an existing older dog to show them the ropes? It can't be personality as to me, that makes no sense. Anyone?

tk123

I think it'd depend on the pup and how receptive and biddable/defiant they are? Lucy learned LOADS from Bailey - she can do commands that I never thought her but saw him doing it and getting praise/treats so copied him I did one or two short sessions on lead work with her before she was allowed out for walks and once she was allowed out she either walked beside him or at his back legs so walks really well on the lead. There's other stuff that never rubbed off on her though lol She certainly didn't take to toilet training as quick as he did!