Ireland vs England, Sunday 1st March 3pm; RTE/BBC

aimee1

Heroditas wrote: »

Do you mean as in scoring a try? Didn't Gavin Duffy score one after that or was he with Quins at the time?
Quite an amazing length of time though.

Duffy scored a try at murrayfield in about 10 years ago but he was at quins at the time

davegrohl48

We're the best side in the air and are now going with it strongly as our plan A. If we have an ambition of winning the RWC (and this team would) then it's the most effective tactics.
- we don't have outrageous speed in the backs
- we don't have too many ball carriers
That leaves us with this tactic which is very hard to counter. Bowe/Zebo/Kearney/Henshaw all very good in the air. So we're doing much better than average on restarts/box kicks/kicks to corner.
It's something that can't be developed to a Kearney/Henshaw level after your teenage years. The reading of the flight of a ball and last millisecond adjustment of hands mid air is not trainable into adult players to that level.
So it likely goes to a whole new level of execution the more competitive games we play like this.
BTW agree with poster, don't know why Kearney is not taking some of our right sided penalties to touch. Has a huge boot n could easily get 10 metres more every time than Sexton/Madigan.

Heroditas

hadoken13 wrote: »

Very true. Especially considering that most rugby clubs practice high fielding now.

To be fair, fielding was always a massive part of rugby when I took it up in the early 80s. Endless Garryowens were regularly a feature of Irish games as well with Mick Kiernan and Paul Dean putting snow on the ball for 80 minutes.
For some reason it seemed to ebb a bit later on but is most definitely a key part of the game again.

phog

yosser hughes wrote: »

He was badly exposed for pace by Vunipola of all people at one stage.

Public lashing for him in Stephen's Green today.

.ak

I thought all our players were immense. I can't say enough about henshaw. After first 20 I thought he was motm but he just kept impressing.

The only players that I thought were off the boil was Bowe and Payne. The latter for me just can't seem to offer any distribution or fix defenders, as a 13 he needs to be straightening, not running arcs into defenders.

As for all the comments about us playing negative rugby... I think you're being unfair to the English, I'm not sure why people think we can just open up teams like these at will? We ran some great moves out there, but the English defence was really good. We had a great high view of the game and every time we got smashed behind the game line we actually commented on how good the English defence was. England and France are good teams, England for me are just as good as us, I think it's ridiculous people expect us to somehow gut these teams open.

For a club game comparison I always think of the leinster v clermont semi, I said this game would play out the same - two teams capable of high tempo running rugby, but when two teams on great form meet each other it generally cancels that out. I felt even when we took the lead that England were still good enough to get back into the game. A great example was a millisecond lapse of concentration from Murray in their 22 resulted in a nearly try against us. That's the margins we're talking about. You don't cut teams like that apart with ball in hand. Having said that we certainly gave it a go.

Sexton, Murray and Henshaw were all sublime in attack. We need more from our back three though. I think we're missing Trimble the most, bowe's form has been iffy, coming in off blind and knocking on quite a few times and Zebo is having very little impact apart from his kick chase. Kearney was a monster in defence (how often do we say that?) but was a little wanting in his counters.

I know I bang this drum but someone like fitz or earls would make a massive difference with how we play off attacking ball. Both of them have made a career on that inside ball we seem to love.

wittycynic

Imperious performance by Ireland, especially in the third quarter where we were doing what they are renowned for, using the pack to blow opposition of the park.

I knew our backs would be solid and go well generally, but to do that to a fancied English group of forwards is a big scalp indeed.

Wales will find it tough to deal with us, especially as we are a major bogey team for them in Cardiff.

thomond2006

England

phog wrote: »

Public lashing for him in Stephen's Green today.

Vunipola made a meal of it by kicking the ball away. His support had a run-in on the wing.

Buer

As good as Henshaw was, I'd have undoubtedly given MOTM to Best. He has taken some flak (and deservedly) after the last game but he was superb yesterday. After 70 minutes there were 4 forwards for us who had played the entire game. POM and Murphy were gassed and their legs were gone. POC and Best though showed true class and phenomenal fitness. Best edges it for me for his breakdown work where he was flinging himself into the rucks for his full showing and also had a fine day in the set piece.

spiralism

Swiwi. wrote: »

Ireland's gameplan (unless there is a Plan B...which there may well be...) would be in trouble if chasing a lead, especially towards the end of a game. You cannot box-kick your way to catch-up a deficit.
Had England crossed the chalk with 10 minutes left, would have been an extremely nervy end to the game.

Ireland have declared their hand very early in the season, despite knowing full-well what Ireland's tactics would be, England were quite inept early on at dealing with them. It will be interesting to see if Wales have learnt anything.

As for the Earls/Fitz vs other people debate, neither are known for their kick chase, not helped by being relatively short players. In 2011 NZ deliberately chose Kahui & Jane over Rococoko & Sivivatu because the former two players were much better aerially. Schmidt seems to have made a similar choice, and IMO Zebo has looked better than Bowe at this style of game. Zebo is not going anywhere, so people leaving him out of their RWC 23s might want to think again. Where Trimble fits into all of this will be interesting.

Wales will play as they always play, we're gonna see classic Warrenball, same as ever. Given that Schmidt tends to alter his game plan depending on the opposition, i think (and certainly hope) that we won't kick the ball anywhere near as much against the Welsh. Kicking down the throat of Halfpenny and North is suicide.

vienne86

England

degsie wrote: »

Wonder why there were so many empty seats in the stadium.

I had a long hard look during just after the anthems - could not see one single solitary empty seat. Where did you see them?

But back to the match. God I slept well last night! It was fab. However, I am still puzzled by Jones' inclusion on the bench instead of Earls/Fitz. It took some re-jigging of the back line when he had to come on.

.ak

Buer wrote: »

As good as Henshaw was, I'd have undoubtedly given MOTM to Best. He has taken some flak (and deservedly) after the last game but he was superb yesterday. After 70 minutes there were 4 forwards for us who had played the entire game. POM and Murphy were gassed and their legs were gone. POC and Best though showed true class and phenomenal fitness. Best edges it for me for his breakdown work where he was flinging himself into the rucks for his full showing and also had a fine day in the set piece.

He was good, he had a fantastic game, but you couldn't not give motm to a man that saved our bacon in terms of shutting down players who had broken loose, or a man that had no fear in tackling backrowers with a few stone on him, or for taking that ball mid air, repositioning it in the air, and getting it on the deck with one hand, or for picking up what looked to be a game ending injury in the 30th minute and then finishing out the game.

Tv commentators dream of performances like that to make the motm selections so easy.

.ak

There wasn't an empty seat in the house, place was heaving. Up there atmosphere wise with the Toulouse semi, but just behind the NZ game.

Dravokivich

duckysauce wrote: »

see him at the end of the match -- non stop moaner :rolleyes: like the rest of the team

It's the environment they are bred in. A lot of post match interviews I saw involving Premiership Clubs is all mainly comments about moaning. There's very little in it really. It's just what they do. I'm a bit annoyed that Conor O'Shea tends to get in on it when he has his 'quins hat on.

.ak

Gits_bone wrote: »

World Cup is what counts and every team will be looking at us. Where was the versatility everyone spoke about pre game? Maul - kick chase. That is Ireland. Our tactics were found out at the last world cup.

And anyone talking about France as anything to shout about should really look at their record. They have only won 7 of their last 18 in the championship.

We actually varied our game quite a lot. The reason people are talking so much more about the kicking is because it yielded us field position and points, but when it comes to set pieces we actually used ball off the top or disconnected so we ran an awful lot of ball.

Regarding the last World Cup we completely changed our setup and tactics going into the quarter. If anything that was our undoing.

Also regarding what Swiwi was saying about chasing the lead with the current tactics... Well, you just do it the same way as you build a lead. We're becoming experts at building pressure, whether it be on kick chasing, multiple phases or garnering set pieces in danger zones. These all yield points, just because you're behind doesn't make the points any different. You just keep applying that pressure.

accidentprone1

I am absolutely delighted at the lineout showing yesterday. It's so much nicer watching a match where you don't have to worry at every single throw.

accidentprone1

accidentprone1 wrote: »

I am absolutely delighted at the lineout showing yesterday. It's so much nicer watching a match where you don't have to worry at every single throw.

Stealing their line out near the start of the match when they chose to go to the corner instead of going for the points.... :D:D:D

awec

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Stealing their line out near the start of the match when they chose to go to the corner instead of going for the points.... :D:D:D

Yea. Chris Robshaw is a terrible captain IMO. No leadership in that England side to keep things ticking over.

crisco10

Deleted User wrote: »

Stealing their line out near the start of the match when they chose to go to the corner instead of going for the points.... :D:D:D

Competing on the oppositions throw from 5m is becoming a rare sight. Teams have become very conservative in that regard, preferring to be more sure of stopping the drive than trying to disrupt the ball.

Was lovely to see Ireland get Toner and POC up on a few of Hartley's throws. Hard to know, but probably one of the smaller tactical decisions pre-game to challenge hard on England ball.

.ak

awec wrote: »

Yea. Chris Robshaw is a terrible captain IMO. No leadership in that England side to keep things ticking over.

I really felt they were good for a try there. Also didn't they just miss a kick from that range? Anyway the nerves were definitely shared; when dev stole the line out the whole crowd erupted onto their feet, it was like we scored a try. I loved how calm Murray was too.

.ak

crisco10 wrote: »

Competing on the oppositions throw from 5m is becoming a rare sight. Teams have become very conservative in that regard, preferring to be more sure of stopping the drive than trying to disrupt the ball.

Was lovely to see Ireland get Toner and POC up on a few of Hartley's throws. Hard to know, but probably one of the smaller tactical decisions pre-game to challenge hard on England ball.

That particular steal looked too accurate to be a decent read. Someone did their homework. Was a joy to watch.

walshb

.ak wrote: »

As for all the comments about us playing negative rugby... I think you're being unfair to the English, I'm not sure why people think we can just open up teams like these at will? We ran some great moves out there, but the English defence was really good. We had a great high view of the game and every time we got smashed behind the game line we actually commented on how good the English defence was. England and France are good teams, England for me are just as good as us, I think it's ridiculous people expect us to somehow gut these teams open.

Absolutely. Where does this sense of entitlement come from, that we should be able to turn up and win, no questions? England with 15 big and powerful men trying their best to beat us. That game yesterday could just as easily went their way with one or two lucky bounces or Irish mistakes. 14 points on the board in no time. We played a super 80 minute game and came out on top. As I said, a couple of bad minutes or plays could have seen us lose. Too many people are looking for this "perfect" game. It does not exist. And it never will.

awec

awec wrote: »

Yea. Chris Robshaw is a terrible captain IMO. No leadership in that England side to keep things ticking over.

I didn't understand them taking 3 points at 13 points down.

crisco10

.ak wrote: »

That particular steal looked too accurate to be a decent read. Someone did their homework. Was a joy to watch.

True, Toner had two lifters and was right on the money position-wise.

English Lurker

.ak wrote: »

Just on the weight thing.. The problem is toner and Ross skew our weight considerably. Our back row are quite small.

And the Vunipolas skew our weight considerably as well. Does it matter where the weight is situated?

Insofar as weight matters to rugby, and its clearly but one of a multitude of factor, I don't think it does. Or, rather, what you get is a set of swings and roundabouts that end up equal. You have some giant lumps that very difficult to shift in mauls and around the fringes. We have bigger men to send in midfield. You have a better target to hit in midfield (George Ford's got the guts of an angry honey badger but he's a modern ROG for effectiveness). You have bigger men out wide.

If there is one regularly expressed opinion on this forum that drives me mad, it is the belief that the Irish are physically smaller than their opponents and that England are huge. The stats, dubious as they may be at times, are out there. You're not small. This current incarnation of the team is a little small in the back row granted, but your tight five aren't and your backline is a regular 6'+ 90kg+, which even in this day and age is not the norm. Not to mention that, really, size is so very far from everything and the rest of the 6N would do foul and unforgivable things to have access to power athletes like Healy, SOB and Henderson, even if there are some bigger men trotting out in their positions elsewhere. Yes, I know that Schmidt reckoned the Irish players could be a bit bigger, and I think he may be onto something there, but I don't think you're actually small or anything.

Plus, well, we're not huge. We've a couple of big players, some a bit above average, quite a few average and a fair old few comfortably below average. And a first choice England team is probably even smaller than this.

Honestly, it almost drives me madder than England's performance levels

ionadnapokot

Deleted User wrote: »

Stealing their line out near the start of the match when they chose to go to the corner instead of going for the points.... :D:D:D

One of those moments to remember! And Henshaw's volley down the pitch!And Sexton's tackle on Ford. And....:D

BoardsMember

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't understand them taking 3 points at 13 points down.

A bit like his decision against South Africa that he got pilloried for. Hard to understand that one, though there was a good bit more time on the clock.

One of the things to work on for me is how to close the game out. It seemed very like pick & drive approach against New Zealand at the end, we were pinged by the ref, and suddenly having been in their half with the ball, we were lucky not to concede a try.

I know the temptation is to keep it tight, but refs (particularly southern hemisphere ones) are just looking to ping teams who are trying to do nothing with the ball. I know another factor is that the lads are wrecked, a lot of the England resurgence seemed to be a drop off on the chasing of the kicks, but perhaps some poorer kicks too.

Baggy Trousers

One pivotal moment for me was Vunipola's kick ahead which crept over the try line but always looked like it would go into touch around 5m line. We were under a lot of pressure at that point with 20 mins or so to go.

.ak

Also the other big moments of the match for me was sexton turning Burrell into a tin can and breaking him in half. Or Sexton's trying to kill poor young ford. Unfortunately he missed the resulting penalty, but it was a tough one (or maybe he bottled it? :rolleyes: )

What about that touch line conversion though? Jesus!

thomond2006

England

.ak wrote: »

I really felt they were good for a try there. Also didn't they just miss a kick from that range? Anyway the nerves were definitely shared; when dev stole the line out the whole crowd erupted onto their feet, it was like we scored a try. I loved how calm Murray was too.

I don't agree. In a tight match like that you have to take your points. It was a crucial mistake. If the roles were reversed I'm certain POC/Sexton would point at the sticks.On Emmet's post I couldn't understand the call to take 3 points at 19-6 down. That had to go to corner. Perhaps the lost lineout in the first half spooked Robshaw?

IMO it's either Grand Slam or bust for Ireland. Ireland have a 15 point advantage over England but given England's fixtures I'd back them to catch us. You'd fear for France and Scotland at Twickenham.

aimee1

crisco10 wrote: »

Competing on the oppositions throw from 5m is becoming a rare sight. Teams have become very conservative in that regard, preferring to be more sure of stopping the drive than trying to disrupt the ball.

Was lovely to see Ireland get Toner and POC up on a few of Hartley's throws. Hard to know, but probably one of the smaller tactical decisions pre-game to challenge hard on England ball.

There is a great pic on irish times website of that steal. POM and Toner in the air.

Buer

awec wrote: »

Yea. Chris Robshaw is a terrible captain IMO. No leadership in that England side to keep things ticking over.

Ah, come on. That's hyperbole. He's a very good captain generally speaking. Completely leads by example and is a smart bloke. He got that one wrong, undoubtedly, but you can go back to so many incidents like that for every captain.

Was BOD a terrible captain because Ireland went to the corner against Wales in the RWC?

Robshaw has captained England through something of a revival and has been central to that.

.ak

English Lurker wrote: »

And the Vunipolas skew our weight considerably as well. Does it matter where the weight is situated?

Insofar as weight matters to rugby, and its clearly but one of a multitude of factor, I don't think it does. Or, rather, what you get is a set of swings and roundabouts that end up equal. You have some giant lumps that very difficult to shift in mauls and around the fringes. We have bigger men to send in midfield. You have a better target to hit in midfield (George Ford's got the guts of an angry honey badger but he's a modern ROG for effectiveness). You have bigger men out wide.

If there is one regularly expressed opinion on this forum that drives me mad, it is the belief that the Irish are physically smaller than their opponents and that England are huge. The stats, dubious as they may be at times, are out there. You're not small. This current incarnation of the team is a little small in the back row granted, but your tight five aren't and your backline is a regular 6'+ 90kg+, which even in this day and age is not the norm. Not to mention that, really, size is so very far from everything and the rest of the 6N would do foul and unforgivable things to have access to power athletes like Healy, SOB and Henderson, even if there are some bigger men trotting out in their positions elsewhere. Yes, I know that Schmidt reckoned the Irish players could be a bit bigger, and I think he may be onto something there, but I don't think you're actually small or anything.

Plus, well, we're not huge. We've a couple of big players, some a bit above average, quite a few average and a fair old few comfortably below average. And a first choice England team is probably even smaller than this.

Honestly, it almost drives me madder than England's performance levels

Yeah that's a fair point, however it does matter where that weight is situated. Toner and Ross aren't very good carriers. We use our openside and 8 as primary, so really when you play a game with Murphy and TOD in those roles you're at a disadvantage. As a side note I thought they were incredible yesterday, considering what was asked of them, but to put in context on tod's first carry we got gobbled up. Guys like vinny, Haskell, dousatoir, picamoles are all big units and carry the weight where it's needed most. Out of our first choice backrow only sob has the weight and dynamism to break the gain line. We have some monster front rows but we don't produce big flankers like other countries do.

thomond2006

England

Haskell's line speed in defence was very impressive yesterday. He was marginally offside at times but didn't get pinged, therefore good job by him! When Haskell played a few years back I thought he had a tendancy to go missing in the trenches but he's a completely different player now.

On line speed yesterday though, nothing was better than Sexton smashing Burrell on the England 22 to win a penalty!

.ak

I thought Haskell had a great first half.

aimee1

thomond2006 wrote: »

I don't agree. In a tight match like that you have to take your points. It was a crucial mistake. If the roles were reversed I'm certain POC/Sexton would point at the sticks.On Emmet's post I couldn't understand the call to take 3 points at 19-6 down. That had to go to corner. Perhaps the lost lineout in the first half spooked Robshaw?

IMO it's either Grand Slam or bust for Ireland. Ireland have a 15 point advantage over England but given England's fixtures I'd back them to catch us. You'd fear for France and Scotland at Twickenham.

Backlash from scotland after saturday. They are decent in defence out wide too. France will produce one performance and if italy beat them it could be twickers.

I do think our best bet is a slam tho.

Buer

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

One pivotal moment for me was Vunipola's kick ahead which crept over the try line but always looked like it would go into touch around 5m line. We were under a lot of pressure at that point with 20 mins or so to go.

It was probably the wrong decision but I don't think it was a terrible kick, more a little unfortunate. If that held up a couple of more yards England were looking at a 5m scrum of line out and people would be hailing it as a match changing moment.

aimee1

.ak wrote: »

I thought Haskell had a great first half.

He has a tendency to give away a dumb penalty or two early in games and he did yesterday which got us moving.

thomond2006

England

aimee1 wrote: »

Backlash from scotland after saturday. They are decent in defence out wide too. France will produce one performance and if italy beat them it could be twickers.

I do think our best bet is a slam tho.

I really don't think they will. Maybe records mean nothing but France's recent record against England is awful, home or away. The best we can hope for is they keep the score down.

awec

Buer wrote: »

Ah, come on. That's hyperbole. He's a very good captain generally speaking. Completely leads by example and is a smart bloke. He got that one wrong, undoubtedly, but you can go back to so many incidents like that for every captain.

Was BOD a terrible captain because Ireland went to the corner against Wales in the RWC?

Robshaw has captained England through something of a revival and has been central to that.

I'm not basing it just on that!

During the Wales game I remember him running after the ref and whining constantly. It's just not smart. The wrong ref and he would have been yellow carded.

I just don't think he's that good at it.

Tox56

English Lurker wrote: »

And the Vunipolas skew our weight considerably as well. Does it matter where the weight is situated?

Insofar as weight matters to rugby, and its clearly but one of a multitude of factor, I don't think it does. Or, rather, what you get is a set of swings and roundabouts that end up equal. You have some giant lumps that very difficult to shift in mauls and around the fringes. We have bigger men to send in midfield. You have a better target to hit in midfield (George Ford's got the guts of an angry honey badger but he's a modern ROG for effectiveness). You have bigger men out wide.

If there is one regularly expressed opinion on this forum that drives me mad, it is the belief that the Irish are physically smaller than their opponents and that England are huge. The stats, dubious as they may be at times, are out there. You're not small. This current incarnation of the team is a little small in the back row granted, but your tight five aren't and your backline is a regular 6'+ 90kg+, which even in this day and age is not the norm. Not to mention that, really, size is so very far from everything and the rest of the 6N would do foul and unforgivable things to have access to power athletes like Healy, SOB and Henderson, even if there are some bigger men trotting out in their positions elsewhere. Yes, I know that Schmidt reckoned the Irish players could be a bit bigger, and I think he may be onto something there, but I don't think you're actually small or anything.

Plus, well, we're not huge. We've a couple of big players, some a bit above average, quite a few average and a fair old few comfortably below average. And a first choice England team is probably even smaller than this.

Honestly, it almost drives me madder than England's performance levels

Weight doesn't lie and that's fair enough but Ross and toner aren't on the same level as someone like Vunipola in terms of carrying power despite comparable weight, thats where the concern always is against England. The backrow that played most of the game for us, POM, TOD and Murphy seems pretty lightweight for this level, especially against beasts like Haskell and Vunipola. It wasn't an issue thankfully but if that backrow lined out again I'd be worried, even SOB isn't the biggest

cson

.ak wrote: »

Yeah that's a fair point, however it does matter where that weight is situated. Toner and Ross aren't very good carriers. We use our openside and 8 as primary, so really when you play a game with Murphy and TOD in those roles you're at a disadvantage. As a side note I thought they were incredible yesterday, considering what was asked of them, but to put in context on tod's first carry we got gobbled up. Guys like vinny, Haskell, dousatoir, picamoles are all big units and carry the weight where it's needed most. Out of our first choice backrow only sob has the weight and dynamism to break the gain line. We have some monster front rows but we don't produce big flankers like other countries do.

Dusautoir is pretty light for a modern day flanker; he gives up at least a stone to all of those mentioned in the same sentence. Phenomenal athlete though.

Thought the experience told in the end; think a stat was knocking about that the Irish starting XV had more caps than the entire English squad combined. You could tell that from the way Ireland just did the right things 99% of the time - experience.

The drop off when Madigan came on was noticeable though; thought he was desperate. Difficult game to come into but you simply have to be better/we need to start getting a solid #2 10 in place because teams will target Sexton.

aimee1

thomond2006 wrote: »

I really don't think they will. Maybe records mean nothing but France's recent record against England is awful, home or away. The best we can hope for is they keep the score down.

JS will make sure they do

leakyboots

Was at this, great game, wonderful atmosphere.

Standout performers were Sexton, Best (needed a good performance), Henshaw. Thought Zebo (especially in the first half), TOD, Murphy (hold my hands up on him, was worried before the game), Toner were excellent too. POC and Murray to their usual high standards. Quick shoutout for Mike Ross too, he's been brilliant in the scrum.

I thought Rob Kearney wasn't great, his counter-running is gone very stale these days. Payne is solid but offers no spark and Tommy Bowe was quiet for the third match in a row, but once again, very little commentary on his form - Zebo has comfortably outperformed him in every match. On Bowe - I had very good seats down the front and was able to see him up close for the first half - his kick chase is very poor I thought, unlike say Kearney or Zebo who throw themselves into the air for it. He seems reluctant to go for it. Great work for the Vunipola break though has to be said, excellent positioning.

I'm going to echo Thomond and a few others here - I still think we'll be in trouble when Plan A doesn't work. We were going backward at a rate of knots in the second half when England ramped up the defensive pressure and never looked like breaking them.

Also, Felix at 23 - what happens if Payne goes off injured in the 1st minute v Wales - an entire game with Felix on the wing, Bowe in the centre? Fitz and particularly Earls are in electric form, there simply has to be a place for one of them in the 23, or ideally in the 15.

This probably reads as being negative but consider them caveats with future matches in mind, we were clinical and composed. We're just looking for the cherry on top now.

.ak

cson wrote: »

Dusautoir is pretty light for a modern day flanker; he gives up at least a stone to all of those mentioned in the same sentence. Phenomenal athlete though.

Thought the experience told in the end; think a stat was knocking about that the Irish starting XV had more caps than the entire English squad combined. You could tell that from the way Ireland just did the right things 99% of the time - experience.

The drop off when Madigan came on was noticeable though; thought he was desperate. Difficult game to come into but you simply have to be better/we need to start getting a solid #2 10 in place because teams will target Sexton.

Madigan's kicking from hand was, and always has been, terrible. But I felt with ball in hand he was very good. He tried to play too much like johnny and not enough like himself.

English Lurker

.ak wrote: »

Yeah that's a fair point, however it does matter where that weight is situated. Toner and Ross aren't very good carriers. We use our openside and 8 as primary, so really when you play a game with Murphy and TOD in those roles you're at a disadvantage. As a side note I thought they were incredible yesterday, considering what was asked of them, but to put in context on tod's first carry we got gobbled up. Guys like vinny, Haskell, dousatoir, picamoles are all big units and carry the weight where it's needed most. Out of our first choice backrow only sob has the weight and dynamism to break the gain line. We have some monster front rows but we don't produce big flankers like other countries do.

And we can't get our carrying game going that well if we struggle to break down the opposition's fringe defence and get an edge on up front, which didn't happen, in no small part due to Toner (a smaller man wouldn't have stolen that 5m lineout), Ross, Best (heavier, more compact man than Hartley) and friends. We also suffered from being outmuscled outside 12 more than once.

I don't want to write off the effects of having TOD and Murphy instead of SOB and Heaslip for you - it clearly will have an impact, particularly on your attack where you suddenly become short of icebreakers - but I don't think it makes you a smaller team.

And you've got a monster sized flanker, if Schmidt cares to use him. One wouldn't question his reasons for doing so when everything's going so well, but Henderson at 6 is a (un)natural(y big) answer to Ireland's ball-carrying problems when short of SOB and its entirely Schmidt's choice to omit him. Seen various suggestions on here that his pre-match attention to detail leaves something to be desired - if I was Schmidt, I'd fit him with one of those electro-shock collars if that's what it took to break him of it.

Buer

Madigan didn't have a great game when he came on but didn't lack for effort. He tackled well and, when he took contact, fought for a couple of yards he shouldn't have made. But his general play just isn't up to scratch. The kick on the full missed by a good bit and his line kicking was very conservative. You got the impression that he was very nervous about missing touch again.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I didn't understand them taking 3 points at 13 points down.

There was plenty of time left, was a good call imo.

MeheeHohee

.ak wrote: »

Yeah that's a fair point, however it does matter where that weight is situated. Toner and Ross aren't very good carriers. We use our openside and 8 as primary, so really when you play a game with Murphy and TOD in those roles you're at a disadvantage. As a side note I thought they were incredible yesterday, considering what was asked of them, but to put in context on tod's first carry we got gobbled up. Guys like vinny, Haskell, dousatoir, picamoles are all big units and carry the weight where it's needed most. Out of our first choice backrow only sob has the weight and dynamism to break the gain line. We have some monster front rows but we don't produce big flankers like other countries do.

TOD and Jordi Murphy are both heavier than Dusautoir? Also would see Tommy as a better ball carrier than him at the moment IMHO.

bilston

.ak wrote: »

The only players that I thought were off the boil was Bowe and Payne. The latter for me just can't seem to offer any distribution or fix defenders, as a 13 he needs to be straightening, not running arcs into defenders.

I thought Payne was very good myself. His defence was rock solid amd he made yarfs in every contact situation. Bowe worked hard for the team but has had better days. I was disappointed by Madigan though, although it's unfair to compare him to Sexton who is miles ahead of him.

awec

English Lurker wrote: »

And you've got a monster sized flanker, if Schmidt cares to use him. One wouldn't question his reasons for doing so when everything's going so well, but Henderson at 6 is a (un)natural(y big) answer to Ireland's ball-carrying problems when short of SOB and its entirely Schmidt's choice to omit him. Seen various suggestions on here that his pre-match attention to detail leaves something to be desired - if I was Schmidt, I'd fit him with one of those electro-shock collars if that's what it took to break him of it.

Damn right lurker. Ulster fans have said all along he is a far better player at 6 than lock where his ball carrying skills are wasted.

IMO it will be a massive shame if Henderson is pigeon holed into the second row, especially because he is Ulsters best 6 by a distance. A bigger travesty than Payne at 13 if it becomes a long term thing.