60 Days to Break 6 for the Mile

Letyourselfgo

30 Minutes around TBB's loop
Got soaked but enjoyed it, tried out my new puma faas runners, I like them.
3 Laps in total with a 200m stride on each one.
Over the last few months I've been doing small bits but not much, but after tonight's run I'm happy with my starting point.

Berlin half was knocked on the head, heart wasn't in it, plus finances had been diverted elsewhere.
Very excited about the new challenge, it'll be close.

RayCun

do you have a target race?

Letyourselfgo

RayCun wrote: »

do you have a target race?

Yep, Greystones at the end of April, they'll have a mile race on the track.

Letyourselfgo

The plan was 4x200m but the entrance to Ballyboden St Enda's GAA club is on my course and the traffic was bad, so I went with 5x150m instead.
My aim was 32/33 secs for each

1st one was too fast 28.1
Slowed it down and 2/3/4 were all 31. Walking back up for the last and I noticed there were no cars in my way so went for the 200, aim was 43/44, ran 40.

Not bad pace-wise, can do better I felt I could have ran them much quicker but the plan was goal mile pace.

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/711320258

Netwerk_Errer

What's the plan going forward? How many workouts and miles a week are you going to do?

20 questions here but what will those workouts consist of in intensity? This weeks and next weeks workouts would be a perfect example.

Letyourselfgo

Netwerk_Errer wrote: »

What's the plan going forward? How many workouts and miles a week are you going to do?

20 questions here but what will those workouts consist of in intensity? This weeks and next weeks workouts would be a perfect example.

2 sessions a week but they won't be monsters. Both will be about hitting goal mile pace, build up to 400s and last session is 2x800m at goal pace.
2 easy runs of 25/30 mins and they'll stay around that duration.
1 longer run of 45 mins and building up to 60, this will be a bit of a fartlek as well, some hills and steady miles.

There's a mile race in raheny on the 25/3 which I may do, give me an idea how realistic sub 6 is.

Netwerk_Errer

Letyourselfgo wrote: »

2 sessions a week but they won't be monsters. Both will be about hitting goal mile pace, build up to 400s and last session is 2x800m at goal pace.
2 easy runs of 25/30 mins and they'll stay around that duration.
1 longer run of 45 mins and building up to 60, this will be a bit of a fartlek as well, some hills and steady miles.

There's a mile race in raheny on the 25/3 which I may do, give me an idea how realistic sub 6 is.

I hope you don't mind me saying but I feel you might sell yourself short with those workouts. Over distance repeats would be of huge benefit to a miler. Of course, there's a place for mile specific pace but multi-paced sessions would help enormously.

Things like 8-10x400m @ mile pace w/2 minutes recovery

2x2400m @ 5k pace w/4minute rec

10x100m hill sprints

4x400m @ mile pace w/2 min rec, 4x200 @ 800m pace w/1minute rec, 4x100m sprints w/30s recovery. In one workout.

They would all be very good early season mile workouts and are all doable. Over distance repeats with a good recovery give you the advantage of running at goal pace for a longer period of time. There are loads of these types of workouts for milers. I'd also recommend compound sets as well. I think if you want to get the best bang for your buck, over distance is the way to go.

Letyourselfgo

Appreciate the feedback.

I suppose I'm coming from a low enough fitness base and I have a tendency to over do it when I'm getting back into the swing of things.
I really don't know where I'm at, maybe I should go out and blast a mile out tomorrow and find out? Feel like it!

The sub 6 is only a short term goal that will hopefully establish the habit again.

I agree with you regarding the over distance and I'll use my longer run for some of this. That longer run isn't going to be at easy pace and it will be run over a hilly course and include some steady efforts.
I actually want to keep my mileage lower and work a bit more on getting quick. Tonights session, if you can call it that, did feel easy but it was session no.1

Netwerk_Errer

Alright, I was throwing some ideas out there.

If you're ever looking for advice on the mid-d stuff. There's a Middle distance training thread on the main forum. The lads will be able to give you some solid advice.

Letyourselfgo

Netwerk_Errer wrote: »

Alright, I was throwing some ideas out there.

If you're ever looking for advice on the mid-d stuff. There's a Middle distance training thread on the main forum. The lads will be able to give you some solid advice.

I've gone to read that a few times, just the size of it is frightening at this stage
Cheers for the input and nothing set in stone, so things could change.
I do want to give the race pace stuff a go though.
Just had a quick look at your log there 20x200, I've a fair way to go

Chivito550

Letyourselfgo wrote: »

2 sessions a week but they won't be monsters. Both will be about hitting goal mile pace, build up to 400s and last session is 2x800m at goal pace

Not sure what that session would achieve, What sort of recovery are you looking at? Lets say I did 2x400m with a few minutes recovery. Right now I could easily run the 2 of them in say 60-62 seconds, but no way on earth would I be able to run 2:00 to 2:04 for 800m. If you are going to do 2 x 800 with a recovery, then you are going to have to make them faster than race pace.

Letyourselfgo

Chivito550 wrote: »

Not sure what that session would achieve, What sort of recovery are you looking at? Lets say I did 2x400m with a few minutes recovery. Right now I could easily run the 2 of them in say 60-62 seconds, but no way on earth would I be able to run 2:00 to 2:04 for 800m. If you are going to do 2 x 800 with a recovery, then you are going to have to make them faster than race pace.

Make the 2s and 4s faster than race pace?

Chivito550

Letyourselfgo wrote: »

Make the 2s and 4s faster than race pace?

I would reckon you'd want to be doing some faster than race pace work for sure, as well as the over distance stuff as explained above.

If you are doing 2 x 800 then why not do them at 2:45 each? Doing them at 3 minutes will be simple if you are targeting sub 6.

Letyourselfgo

Chivito550 wrote: »

I would reckon you'd want to be doing some faster than race pace work for sure, as well as the over distance stuff as explained above.

If you are doing 2 x 800 then why not do them at 2:45 each? Doing them at 3 minutes will be simple if you are targeting sub 6.

The idea was to try and hone in on race pace, not faster or slower and it would be a short recovery.
The progression throughout my sessions is that recovery times will be the changing factor not pace, always getting shorter.
Today was a 2 minute walk recovery back to the start and it was too long.

I had a chat with another coach in the club and the race pace, shorter recoveries was his suggestion.

ECOLII

Best of luck with it D,

FWIW I can see the merit of the approach regarding getting your body prepped for lactic tolerance, you have the base speed to do it so it's the other components which need to be worked on.

With the second session I would probably aim to do 800-400-800 though just to really spike lactic before going into the second 800, I think it would yield huge benefits but that's just a thought.

As for motivation (not lack of but rather distribution) don't look at it as personal development see it as a marketing tool as I think doing that will provide a huge motivation on those days when you start to wain.

Letyourselfgo

Thursday
Drills and a 2 mile run with the kids.

Catherina McKiernan came to the club Tuesday night to give a talk about running form. A few of the things I liked was the slight tilt forward when running, which I know I naturally don't do. Secondly was when going uphill to have your fists move from a hip to under chin motion and finally to have most of your stride behind you and not in front.

Friday
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/712646639
I put some of the talk into practice and finished with 200m at race pace.

Sunday
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/714371708
800m time trial, ran 2'55. I started way too quick, there was a strong breeze for the first 150m and I think I over compensated so as not to lose time. I felt my form was all over the place and tried to pick it up from 500m to 600m but couldn't and then tried to kick for the last 200m but had nothing.
It's a long way from my PB but it's a start and it's pretty much where I thought I'd be.
My daughter (11) recently ran 2'56 indoors after a 39 first lap (too quick) and finished like a train after 2 mediocre middle laps, so I think it's safe to say she'd kick my ass if we both raced right now. On the plus side, I have a pace maker

Thanks for all the input above as I'm going to change things up as a result, obviously starting with the TT today.
I'll put up next weeks later and feel free to scrutinise.

Chivito550

Letyourselfgo wrote: »

Sunday
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/714371708
800m time trial, ran 2'55. I started way too quick, there was a strong breeze for the first 150m and I think I over compensated so as not to lose time. I felt my form was all over the place and tried to pick it up from 500m to 600m but couldn't and then tried to kick for the last 200m but had nothing.
It's a long way from my PB but it's a start and it's pretty much where I thought I'd be.
My daughter (11) recently ran 2'56 indoors after a 39 first lap (too quick) and finished like a train after 2 mediocre middle laps, so I think it's safe to say she'd kick my ass if we both raced right now. On the plus side, I have a pace maker

Firstly, good stuff that you went out and did the time trial. Now you have a measure of where you are starting off, and how much work needs to be done. Also, it's fair to say, that you'd go maybe 5 seconds faster if you ran in a race, maybe more, as solo time trialing isn't the easiest business.

You are obviously capable of running much much quicker than that though. To go sub 6, you'd probably want to be running sub 2:40 for 800m.

Let the part in bold above be used as serious motivation.

Letyourselfgo

Thanks. Felt terrible straight after, my throat was sore as well but now feeling really happy that I did it and excited.

Plan
Mon - 40 mins easy
Tue - 4x400m at ? pace
Wed - 40 mins easy
Thu - 2x1 mile tempo
Fri -
Sat - 40 mins easy
Sun - 60 mins of whatever I feel like

I think I was selling myself short last week but this looks maybe a little more like it. Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the pace for 400s above and % heart rate for the tempos (maybe 85-90%)?

Golfing Friday so that's why session is on Thursday. Also I may take Wednesday off as 5 days could be enough.

pconn062

My opinions would be to do the 400's and tempo at a certain effort, rather than pace. So do the 4x400m at mile effort )and be truthful with what the correct effort level is!). Same for the tempo, do 2x1 mile at 10k-10 mile effort, or you do 3x1 mile @ 10mile-1/2 marathon effort. I think at this stage of the plan getting used to the effort of your mile pace is important, I wouldn't be overly concerned with pace as there are too many variables, weather etc. I would only be looking at exact splits in the last few weeks before the race.

Letyourselfgo

pconn062 wrote: »

My opinions would be to do the 400's and tempo at a certain effort, rather than pace. So do the 4x400m at mile effort )and be truthful with what the correct effort level is!). Same for the tempo, do 2x1 mile at 10k-10 mile effort, or you do 3x1 mile @ 10mile-1/2 marathon effort. I think at this stage of the plan getting used to the effort of your mile pace is important, I wouldn't be overly concerned with pace as there are too many variables, weather etc. I would only be looking at exact splits in the last few weeks before the race.

Thanks pconn, so are you suggesting 400s at current mile pace? I definitely need to get used to the fast pace and the mental side, wanted to stop after 200m today
I haven't raced a 10k, 10mhalf in 3 years, wouldn't have a clue where I'm at which is why I was thinking HR?

ECOLII

Just looking at the 2 mile worth of tempo.

Personally I feel like you won't get your HR high enough for long enough to get the benefits from this

If you were looking for a bit of strength while still remaining fairly low in mileage I think something along the lines of an alteration might suit you better

16 x (100m @ 800 -1500 pace / 100m easy)
or if not using a track or a set loop
8 x (200m @ 3k - 5k / 200 easy)

Larry Brent

Good to see you back at it, stick at it now

The 2 x 800 as your key session is on the right track. Remember how tergat used to get to that point in 2 different ways (you could use either way or do both together):

1) Progress from 10-14 x 200 to 6-8 x 400, 4 x 600, 3 x 800 all at mile pace

2) every 10 days - Progress from 6 x 1000 @ 85-88% 1m pace, 3mins recover to 5 x 1000 @ 88-90% pace, 4 mins rec; 4 x 1000 @ 92-95%, 5mins rec; 3 x 1000 @ 96-98%, 6mins rec and finally 2 x 1000 @ 100% 8mins rec.

Of course there are other things to consider, but just reminding you of those sessions. 2 or 3 x 800 @ 1 mile pace is a tough session, I don't think it would be possible to do it much faster than true 1 mile pace.

Best of luck with it!

Netwerk_Errer

ECOLII wrote: »

Just looking at the 2 mile worth of tempo.

Personally I feel like you won't get your HR high enough for long enough to get the benefits from this

If you were looking for a bit of strength while still remaining fairly low in mileage I think something along the lines of an alteration might suit you better

16 x (100m @ 800 -1500 pace / 100m easy)
or if not using a track or a set loop
8 x (200m @ 3k - 5k / 200 easy)

Just wondering what your thought process is behind these kind of sessions. My interpretation of a good mile training plan would be running high reps at mile pace with long recovery. Like 3000m of mile pace total for the workout early in training and cut down on quantity and raise intensity when you get closer to raceday. Basically, getting in as much distance at mile pace early in training.

I'm struggling to grasp why you are recommending 16x100m at mile pace with 100m recovery and where the benefit is in sessions like that opposed to taking an over distance approach like I mentioned earlier.

You seem to be looking at a buildup approach while I would be looking at a cut down approach. Just interested on your thoughts.

dna_leri

Letyourselfgo wrote: »

Thanks. Felt terrible straight after, my throat was sore as well but now feeling really happy that I did it and excited.

Plan
Mon - 40 mins easy
Tue - 4x400m at ? pace
Wed - 40 mins easy
Thu - 2x1 mile tempo
Fri -
Sat - 40 mins easy
Sun - 60 mins of whatever I feel like

I think I was selling myself short last week but this looks maybe a little more like it. Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the pace for 400s above and % heart rate for the tempos (maybe 85-90%)?

Golfing Friday so that's why session is on Thursday. Also I may take Wednesday off as 5 days could be enough.

Welcome back.

Regarding the pace for those 400s, I think Larry is spot on about working back from your target race and fitting in the progression of key sessions from there. However I guess the problem is that you do not know from where you are starting fitness-wise and you need to gain a bit of confidence in your ability.

If you are set on doing 4x400m this week, I would suggest start out at mile +10% pace (1:38), next mile +5% (1:34), then mile pace (1:29.5 - don't make the mistake of thinking it's 1:30, those extra 9m count too), finishing with faster than mile pace (1:28?). Of course the whole nature of session changes depending on the recovery time. Don't fool yourself by going over 90s.

However once you have done that, sit down and make out a plan that works back from your target race. I would advocate alternating cut-downs and build-ups each week.

Letyourselfgo

Really appreciate the feedback and DNA I'll try that with the 400s off maybe 90 recovery or do you think that's too long, happy to try shorter. You're also correct with confidence, I don't have any.

dna_leri

Letyourselfgo wrote: »

Really appreciate the feedback and DNA I'll try that with the 400s off maybe 90 recovery or do you think that's too long, happy to try shorter. You're also correct with confidence, I don't have any.

Maybe 60,75,90s for the recoveries but adjust based on how you feel?
If you are sucking air after the 1st one, or you go a bit fast on the 2nd, give yourself the extra 15s recovery. 1:38 should be easy-ish, 1:28 not easy.

ECOLII

Netwerk_Errer wrote: »

Just wondering what your thought process is behind these kind of sessions. My interpretation of a good mile training plan would be running high reps at mile pace with long recovery. Like 3000m of mile pace total for the workout early in training and cut down on quantity and raise intensity when you get closer to raceday. Basically, getting in as much distance at mile pace early in training.

I'm struggling to grasp why you are recommending 16x100m at mile pace with 100m recovery and where the benefit is in sessions like that opposed to taking an over distance approach like I mentioned earlier.

You seem to be looking at a buildup approach while I would be looking at a cut down approach. Just interested on your thoughts.

Reason I recommended this was as a more specific tempo than the 2x1 mile he had planned originally planned. Looking at the low mileage approach that LYG seems to be going for I would tend to advocate as close to race paces as possible at all time.

Overdistance would be my usual go to but knowing LYG and the time frame I think that some of these sessions will be either to hard physically or mentally and I think this style of tempo will yield better results.

By keeping the duration low, intensity higher and recovery low your body ends up working at more appropriate levels for an 800/1500 tempo than a 2x1 mile where you are only getting the HR high enough coming near the end of the first mile only to have it drop again on the recovery

In terms of pace though I would be leaning closer to 800 than 1500 to be honest.

There is also the element of neuromuscular development got from running these paces which in feel in the shorter time frame need to be combined to a point rather than working closer to the target race

Letyourselfgo

Monday
Cadence run
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/715585806
32 minutes at 80% HR
Felt good.

Letyourselfgo

Tuesday
4x400m
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/716112392

About 1500m to warm up and a couple of drills, I was fairly warmed up after an active morning.
Lovely warm day for it
Plan was
1st 98 recovery 60
2nd 94 recovery 75
3rd 90 recovery 90
4th 88

Actual
96.2, 97.9, 89.7, 88.7

Didn't quite get the pace right for the first 2, on the first rep I went through halfway at 42 which was too quick. 1500 to cool down.
Really enjoyed it.

Letyourselfgo

Wednesday
Close to 40 mins
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/717212108

Letyourselfgo

Thursday
Close to 30 mins
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/717972974

Not golfing tomorrow, so easy run with the kids.
2x1 mile tomorrow.