Buying a LOI club?

rightyabe

Basically just wondering could a sugar daddy buy a league of Ireland club? What sort of money would we be talking to run a club and keep them running and competing in Europe?

Would any advances in the Europa cup make much money for the club etc..

I'd like to see some financial figures of a Irish club that had a good run in Europe.

Zebra3

rightyabe wrote: »

Basically just wondering could a sugar daddy buy a league of Ireland club? What sort of money would we be talking to run a club and keep them running and competing in Europe?

Would any advances in the Europa cup make much money for the club etc..

I'd like to see some financial figures of a Irish club that had a good run in Europe.

Shels lost something like 1.4M euro in 2004, the season we almost made the CL and I think the club made a record that year for a LoI club with regards income.

(Just don't go looking for any accounts...).

dreamers75

Pats have a sugar daddy, partial accounts are on CRO website but costs about 1.5m to run.

artanevilla

Who are you looking to buy?

Ulysses Gaze

rightyabe wrote: »

Basically just wondering could a sugar daddy buy a league of Ireland club? What sort of money would we be talking to run a club and keep them running and competing in Europe?

Would any advances in the Europa cup make much money for the club etc..

I'd like to see some financial figures of a Irish club that had a good run in Europe.

You'd need to see if you could access Rover's accounts for the year that they played in the Europa League groups stage.

COYVB

dreamers75 wrote: »

Pats have a sugar daddy, partial accounts are on CRO website but costs about 1.5m to run.

What are their losses? Or is that the 1.5m? Because if you were buying a club your main concern would be their annual losses since that's what you'd be looking at covering. Obviously not including putting money in for new players etc.

I reckon anyone with a few million they had "spare" could turn a team into a completely dominant domestic force and have a decent crack at regular European football beyond qualifying stages

jayo26

Mick Wallace be the man to ask he is an expert on keeping a company afloat and running a top league of Ireland side on a large budget

Richard Hillman

Thanks to this ludicrous Financial "Fair Play" it would probably be impossible. A newly retired bachelor in his 50s-60s that has supported a team all his life can win 100m on the Euromillions, decide he wants to spend his money on his local football team and then get told by UEFA that aint fair that he invests his own money into his local club.

UEFA want to move away from generous benefactors and go to a system where whoever has the most Facebook likes can spend the most money.

CSF

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Thanks to this ludicrous Financial "Fair Play" it would probably be impossible. A newly retired bachelor in his 50s-60s that has supported a team all his life can win 100m on the Euromillions, decide he wants to spend his money on his local football team and then get told by UEFA that aint fair that he invests his own money into his local club.

UEFA want to move away from generous benefactors and go to a system where whoever has the most Facebook likes can spend the most money.

And its not necessarily a bad thing. If that newly retired bachelor suddenly decides he no longer wants to invest his own money in his local club, that could be the end of the club. With multi-year contracts etc. it isn't just a case of going back to where you were before financially if your benefactor leaves.

Paz-CCFC

COYVB wrote: »

What are their losses? Or is that the 1.5m? Because if you were buying a club your main concern would be their annual losses since that's what you'd be looking at covering. Obviously not including putting money in for new players etc.

I reckon anyone with a few million they had "spare" could turn a team into a completely dominant domestic force and have a decent crack at regular European football beyond qualifying stages

A few wealthy businessmen/businesses have been involved in the last decade or two and no one club has managed to emerge as a dominant force.

Brian Lennox was involved with Cork City, covering a lot of our losses. We won a league and a couples of cups under him, but it was stretching his personal finances too much. He passed it onto mega rich (now bust) company Arkaga, who spent loads on the club's behalf and when it didn't immediately pay off, jumped ship leaving an insolvent company. The fans took over following a shyster in the interim and, while the club is spending much more moderately, we've never been in a better shape.

Bohs didn't have a single sugar daddy in charge, but they were expecting a windfall the equivalent of a couple of CL group campaigns. They spent it before they got it. It took them a couple of years to reach the top, but they were knocked off that by fans-owned Shamrock Rovers before they even started to cut their cloth. They've been in much worse shape since, compared to how they were before the "windfall".

Pats had big investments by Kelleher, but initially to little avail. It wasn't until they introduced a much more sustainable model that they actually got to the top in 2013.

Limerick have a local millionaire in charge. Even with the millions, it took them a couple of seasons to get promoted and two seasons in the Premier, they failed to get above mid-table. His spare cash now seems to be depleted and he's cutting back to a more sustainable model. He did put in some structures like an extensive youth time and a large property for training facilities. These will do Limerick much more good than any first team player brought in on big wages ever would.

There are plenty of other examples, then - Fingal, Drogheda, Shels, Rovers a few times etc.

A spare few million seems great at first, but when you throw money at players, it's not long until that's eaten into and gets completely depleted. If you wanted to make it last, you'd be much better off at putting it into building the infrastructure to allow the club develop - stadium, training facilities, youth teams etc. It takes much longer to reap the rewards, though, and it's no guarantee that you'll be the single dominant force. But chances are you'll get a lot more mileage than throwing it at the first team in the form of overinflated wages and transfer fees.

AllGunsBlazing

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Thanks to this ludicrous Financial "Fair Play" it would probably be impossible. A newly retired bachelor in his 50s-60s that has supported a team all his life can win 100m on the Euromillions, decide he wants to spend his money on his local football team and then get told by UEFA that aint fair that he invests his own money into his local club.

UEFA want to move away from generous benefactors and go to a system where whoever has the most Facebook likes can spend the most money.

Nothing to stop him from investing in the infrastructure of a club. Crumbling stadiums are the biggest problem in the LOI. Sadly, our league could be used as a case in study in spending big on players in the short term only to end up reaping the whirlwind afterwards.

rightyabe

Thanks for your in out folks. Me and a friend were talking what would we do if we won euro millions, like 120 million or something. I said I'd buy Finn harps and get them into Europe. It just got me thinking what money is required etc..like how much would there weekly total salary equate to? At a guess if say 6-10 grand at the moment (absolute stab in the dark) so up to 500,000 a year..like if I won 120m the interest would nearly cover that maybe😀 I know there is loads more the club spend on every week and match days but I'm sure with the right structures and management you could make it some what sustainable??

Zebra3

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Thanks to this ludicrous Financial "Fair Play" it would probably be impossible. A newly retired bachelor in his 50s-60s that has supported a team all his life can win 100m on the Euromillions, decide he wants to spend his money on his local football team and then get told by UEFA that aint fair that he invests his own money into his local club.

UEFA want to move away from generous benefactors and go to a system where whoever has the most Facebook likes can spend the most money.

You should read up on what happened at Gretna.

Big Ears

Zebra3 wrote: »

You should read up on what happened at Gretna.

While obviously the club technically doesn't exist, in reality they were a club in Northern League division one in England (tier 8) before the money, and the new club plays in the Lowland football league in Scotland (tier 5). So not really much difference there.
In between they Won Scottish League 1,2 and 3, reached a Scottish Cup final and got to play in Europe.
So they mightn't be so regretful of their experience.

With that said most LOI sides have a lot more of an established history and resources to lose, than a club that started as far down as Gretna.

NIMAN

Zebra3 wrote: »

You should read up on what happened at Gretna.

Their problems all started when we took them to the cleaners in Motherwell on that memorable day !!;):D

rightyabe

Would it be fair to say that keeping control of player wages would give you a chance of limiting your losses? But also at the same time continuing to win the league and qualify for Europe and the Europa League group stage?

Is there any figures of the winning money for the league, cups and euro competitions etc?

Zebra3

Big Ears wrote: »

While obviously the club technically doesn't exist, in reality they were a club in Northern League division one in England (tier 8) before the money, and the new club plays in the Lowland football league in Scotland (tier 5). So not really much difference there.
In between they Won Scottish League 1,2 and 3, reached a Scottish Cup final and got to play in Europe.
So they mightn't be so regretful of their experience.

With that said most LOI sides have a lot more of an established history and resources to lose, than a club that started as far down as Gretna.

It's not just a case of them enjoying or regretting their experience.

Each club has a responsibility to their rivals, the league and indeed their employees and creditors with regard to their ability to fulfill fixtures, and pay wages and bills.

Gretna, like many clubs in the LoI, in the way they were run has not been good for the long term benefit of the clubs themselves or their league.

There is nothing wrong with people putting money into clubs but it has to be done in a responsible manner. And that did not happen at Gretna. One bloke got sick and the club was screwed.

rightyabe

look at Rosenborg in Norway for example, with a bit of money in the 90's they won the league year after year (12 in a row I think) and qualified for the champions league every year which made them the richest club in Norway by a long way.

Why cant this happen in Ireland? Shels had a go..Cork tried..Rovers nearly done it. If Shels made the group stages in 2004 would they have gone on to dominate Ireland like Rosenborg did in Norway?

dfx-

rightyabe wrote: »

Basically just wondering could a sugar daddy buy a league of Ireland club? What sort of money would we be talking to run a club and keep them running and competing in Europe?

Would any advances in the Europa cup make much money for the club etc..

I'd like to see some financial figures of a Irish club that had a good run in Europe.

To keep them reliably at the top and therefore a stable squad who don't constantly move around, you'd be looking to replicate Bohs of 2008 or Drogheda in 2007 who both walked the league. Considering they suffered from it financially, I'd guess about €2-3m a season for a few seasons...

NIMAN

rightyabe wrote: »

look at Rosenborg in Norway for example, with a bit of money in the 90's they won the league year after year (12 in a row I think) and qualified for the champions league every year which made them the richest club in Norway by a long way.

Why cant this happen in Ireland? Shels had a go..Cork tried..Rovers nearly done it. If Shels made the group stages in 2004 would they have gone on to dominate Ireland like Rosenborg did in Norway?

So how come it wasn't continually self perpetuating?
What happened to them in recent years?

CSF

NIMAN wrote: »

So how come it wasn't continually self perpetuating?
What happened to them in recent years?

Molde and Stromsgodset struck gold with great youth systems and managers who would eventually get drafted into bigger leagues.

Rosenborg made less good decisions. They'll be back though. Too big not to.

anncoates

If i had a windfall that allowed me to invest heavily in my LOI club I wouldn't spunk money into player wages. I'd fund stuff like a extensive Youth Academy, B team, training facilities, members bar advertising etc. All stuff that has the potential to build the club long term

eagle eye

anncoates wrote: »

If i had a windfall that allowed me to invest heavily in my LOI club I wouldn't spunk money into player wages. I'd fund stuff like a Youth Academy, B team, training facilities, members bar advertising etc. All stuff that has the potential to build the club long term

And the big English clubs would thank you very much for that as they rob all your good young players.

SantryRed

If I had money to spend on the LOI, I'd pocket it and wouldn't bother. The league is doomed and is just one big money pit. This coming from a fan of it.

rightyabe

anncoates wrote: »

If i had a windfall that allowed me to invest heavily in my LOI club I wouldn't spunk money into player wages. I'd fund stuff like a extensive Youth Academy, B team, training facilities, members bar advertising etc. All stuff that has the potential to build the club long term

Of course that would help for generations and benefit the whole club but people would also like to see good players play. Maybe allow a marquee signing every season like in MLS and Australia's A League.

Paz-CCFC

eagle eye wrote: »

And the big English clubs would thank you very much for that as they rob all your good young players.

At higher prices than currently. If LoI teams had players from 12/13 years old, you're talking about two or three times as much compensation. If we could get them on 52 week, multi-year contracts, we'd be in an even better bargaining position. If every year a club were to produce on first-teamer who went off to England for six figures and one who's good enough to stay on, that'd be a massive success.

Our desperate national side would also massively reap the benefits, instead of having to rely on the now disinterested English system to develop young Irish players.

To Elland Back

jayo26 wrote: »

Mick Wallace be the man to ask he is an expert on keeping a company afloat and running a top league of Ireland side on a large budget

In fairness to Mick, he founded and built a club from scratch. There wasn't even a gate on Ferrycarrig Park when he started.

Gavin "shels"

rightyabe wrote: »

look at Rosenborg in Norway for example, with a bit of money in the 90's they won the league year after year (12 in a row I think) and qualified for the champions league every year which made them the richest club in Norway by a long way.

Why cant this happen in Ireland? Shels had a go..Cork tried..Rovers nearly done it. If Shels made the group stages in 2004 would they have gone on to dominate Ireland like Rosenborg did in Norway?

Your answer - the Irish football fan. Norway has a big EPL following but they still flock to see the local side. It's as simple as that.

inforfun

Rosenborg also benefited from a generation of really good Norwegian players.

Will never happen here in Ireland as any Irish kid that can kick a ball 3 meters straight forward ends up in the UK at whatever level.

artanevilla

Attendances in Norway also reach averages of 10,000. Hasn't been like that in Ireland in a number of years.

Without attendances, Champions League football wouldn't be sustainable.

jayo26

To Elland Back wrote: »

In fairness to Mick, he founded and built a club from scratch. There wasn't even a gate on Ferrycarrig Park when he started.

In fairness to mick he founded and built a club but couldn't pay his company's debts and bank loans. As much as I love to see investment in Irish sport that clown spent money that should of been invested in his construction business and loans on a football club. I know he has done loads for football in Wexford over the years but Wexford youths was not done properly.

rightyabe

Surely tv revenue from the champions league and sponsorships that come with would make it worth while? And no doubt home games in the CL could be moved to the aviva?

Francie Barrett

rightyabe wrote: »

Basically just wondering could a sugar daddy buy a league of Ireland club? What sort of money would we be talking to run a club and keep them running and competing in Europe?

Would any advances in the Europa cup make much money for the club etc..

I'd like to see some financial figures of a Irish club that had a good run in Europe.

Most of the clubs in Ireland would be run on a budget of about €400-500k a year. A few clubs would be less (Longford, Bray) a few clubs would be a bit more (Cork, Pats). Shamrock Rovers would have the biggest budget (surely they wouldn't be far off a million at this stage?). To buy the league, you'd need €1M at a minimum, €2M would probably guarantee it, assuming you had some kind of base to start from.

Richard Hillman

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

Nothing to stop him from investing in the infrastructure of a club. Crumbling stadiums are the biggest problem in the LOI. Sadly, our league could be used as a case in study in spending big on players in the short term only to end up reaping the whirlwind afterwards.

There is no used having a great ground and training facilities if you are still only getting 1,000-2000 people through the gates. Even if you decided to sponsor the club , it will still be restricted to near the market value.

ArmaniJeanss

rightyabe wrote: »

Surely tv revenue from the champions league and sponsorships that come with would make it worth while? And no doubt home games in the CL could be moved to the aviva?

TV revenue might be surprisingly small, like how much extra do you reckon RTE or TV3 is going to put into the pot for an Irish team. (Arguably they'd prefer an Irish team didn't qualify at all so they could continue to cherrypick the best EPL team in each slot). The amount of base TV money you receive is directly related to the amount generated by your market.
In order to get into portions of europewide tv money and other revenue that is set aside for prizemoney you'd actually have to be winning or at least drawing games in the group stages.

Local sponsorship, I'm not sure how much Three or Vodafone or Guinness would be willing to pay, others might have a better idea.

Games in the Aviva - genuinely not sure the market is there for 45K sellouts when its up against MUFC v Bayern televised at the same time. The game against the No1 seed would be a likely sellout I guess. Could be wrong but I don't think Rovers sold out Tallaght completely for their Europa games, or if they did I think tickets were available late in the day.

rightyabe

Found this on uefa site from 2012..

"Each of the 32 sides involved in the group stage will collect a base fee of €8.6m. Performance bonuses will also see €1m paid for a win and €500,000 for a draw in the group phase."

ArmaniJeanss

rightyabe wrote: »

Found this on uefa site from 2012..

"Each of the 32 sides involved in the group stage will collect a base fee of €8.6m. Performance bonuses will also see €1m paid for a win and €500,000 for a draw in the group phase."

Cheers, the base fee is a good bit more than I thought it was, and is a decent starting point alright.
They would still however miss out on the 'market pool' payouts which is where the Italian, German, English clubs rake it in. e.g., the 4 qualifying English clubs will be looking at around €50M each next season under the new BT deal.

*****
2012 money.
http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=1858497.html
The net amount available to the participating clubs will be split – €500.7m in fixed payments and €409.6m in variable amounts (market pool). This will be distributed according to the proportional value of each television market represented by the clubs taking part in the UEFA Champions League (group stage onwards), and will be split among those sides competing from a given association.

anncoates

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Most of the clubs in Ireland would be run on a budget of about €400-500k a year. A few clubs would be less (Longford, Bray) a few clubs would be a bit more (Cork, Pats). Shamrock Rovers would have the biggest budget (surely they wouldn't be far off a million at this stage?). To buy the league, you'd need €1M at a minimum, €2M would probably guarantee it, assuming you had some kind of base to start from.

I'd assume Dundalk and definitely Pats would have a higher playing budget than us now. Cork must be up there now too I'd say.

rightyabe

So how much are top players at the top clubs getting a week in ireland now??

To Elland Back

jayo26 wrote: »

In fairness to mick he founded and built a club but couldn't pay his company's debts and bank loans. As much as I love to see investment in Irish sport that clown spent money that should of been invested in his construction business and loans on a football club. I know he has done loads for football in Wexford over the years but Wexford youths was not done properly.

He built it between 2004 and 2007 when his balance sheet said he had money. Nobody is trying to condone what he did when the bust came, least of all me.

dreamers75

anncoates wrote: »

I'd assume Dundalk and definitely Pats would have a higher playing budget than us now. Cork must be up there now too I'd say.

I would have agreed with that in Jan but you have made some decent non youth signings since.

To pull a rosenborg you dont need to get into the groups you need 3 rounds in Europe (not china) and the money from would comfortably pay a clubs wages for a season. Or 1 decent CL tie for Dundalk this year.

600k divided by 40 weeks is 15k a week. That wouldnt be far off Pats,Rovers,Dundalks budgets.


Hard to find this but in 11/12 Uefa Paid Ireland €910k for qualifiying rounds.

http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Download/uefaorg/Finance/01/84/05/90/1840590_DOWNLOAD.pdf

We played 3 games Iceland, Kazakstan, Ukraine
Sligo 1 Ukraine
Bohs 1 somewhere
Rovers 2? before groups

Think we got 450k (little or no TV money) for our troubles and it has been increased since, it would be 600k in todays terms for the same progression.

AllGunsBlazing

Richard Hillman wrote: »

There is no used having a great ground and training facilities if you are still only getting 1,000-2000 people through the gates. Even if you decided to sponsor the club , it will still be restricted to near the market value.

How many will you get through the gates of a dump? Forget playing at home in Europe as well,

Gavin "shels"

inforfun wrote: »

Rosenborg also benefited from a generation of really good Norwegian players.

Will never happen here in Ireland as any Irish kid that can kick a ball 3 meters straight forward ends up in the UK at whatever level.

On the whole player thing. I was at the Shels Fans' Forum, and it was brought up by someone asking if we got any money off Ipswich for Adam McDonnell or Dylan Connolly. Basically English clubs do want they want, there's UEFA rules in place but they don't really abide by them, made a lot of sense at how clubs over here get screwed over.

dfx-

dreamers75 wrote: »

Rovers 2? before groups

Estonia, Denmark, Serbia

Oat23

Francie Barrett wrote: »

To buy the league, you'd need €1M at a minimum, €2M would probably guarantee it, assuming you had some kind of base to start from.

No way €1m is buying the league. It cost over €1.5m to run Sligo Rovers in 2013.

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

How many will you get through the gates of a dump? Forget playing at home in Europe as well,

Are you two still talking about Finn Harps?

Their new stadium should be ready next season I think? So no longer playing in a dump.

inforfun

Gavin shels wrote: »

On the whole player thing. I was at the Shels Fans' Forum, and it was brought up by someone asking if we got any money off Ipswich for Adam McDonnell or Dylan Connolly. Basically English clubs do want they want, there's UEFA rules in place but they don't really abide by them, made a lot of sense at how clubs over here get screwed over.

I feel your pain..

Bruma, Rekik, Ake, Ebicilio are just 4 i can name from my head who were robbed from the Feyenoord youth academy before they were 16 and Feyenoord never got a cent for them. First 3 played there from age 7 and yet the English teams can consider Rekik and Ake "homegrown.

Now if that crap happens to a club from Holland with a little bit of status, you can only imagine what happens to a team in a small league like Ireland by English teams.

And whether it is wise to go abroad at such a young age is debatable as well.
De Vrij and Martins Indi were wanted also at age 15, stayed at Feyenoord and have now a 3rd place in a World cup and contracts and first team football at Lazio and Porto. bruma is now at PSV, Ebicilio warming the bench in Twente and rekik/Ake playing U21 on wet monday nights.

Think i went a bit off topic.....

Sorry.

Lovely Bloke

How do you become a Millionaire?

Be a Billionaire and buy a football club.

anncoates

eagle eye wrote: »

And the big English clubs would thank you very much for that as they rob all your good young players.

They go anyway. Why not try and offer a structured path with good facilities to senior level, try and get a season of two out of them here and get transfer fees for them?

rightyabe wrote: »

Of course that would help for generations and benefit the whole club but people would also like to see good players play.

Even if the league was in better shape, you're still only going to get marquee players here at the end of their career. Most people would rather see good young players here at the start of their career before heading aboard.

Plus we need to get away from thinking that 'growing' (read: big name players and Europeans success as a be-all-end-all to attract barstoolers to the league for a few glory years) the league is preferable to creating a league that can become self-sufficient, with proper structures/ facilities and producing decent young players.

patmac

Sad to say the will isn't there look at Limerick Football Club 3rd largest city in Ireland and they can't support one club.

rightyabe

anncoates wrote: »

They go anyway. Why not try and offer a structured path with good facilities to senior level, try and get a season of two out of them here and get transfer fees for them?



Even if the league was in better shape, you're still only going to get marquee players here at the end of their career. Most people would rather see good young players here at the start of their career before heading aboard.

Plus we need to get away from thinking that 'growing' (read: big name players and Europeans success as a be-all-end-all to attract barstoolers to the league for a few glory years) the league is preferable to creating a league that can become self-sufficient, with proper structures/ facilities and producing decent young players.

I'd have to disagree that people rather watch good young players. Finn harps team is filled with the best local talent available and still attendances are poor. When Finn harps are winning and challenging for a title, attendances can be up near 3000 not to mention big derbys against derry City can have Finn park stuffed.

Marquee players are only ever going to be at the end of their career. Look at the MLS, it's whole reputation in Europe is based on the fact it's stuffed with marquee players. Australia is the same, Del Piero went to Sydney, david villa at melbourne City and now at New York, Duff at Melbourne as well. Any league trying to build their reputation are happy to get these kind of signings as it sells papers and ultimately gets bums on seats. It's a win win situation for both parties and definitely something irish clubs should embrace considering our proximity to England and scotland.

atilladehun

I think I'd go a different route than buy a club. I think the model of trying to sugar daddy a club to success has be tried , here and abroad, and is eventually likely to fail and cause a fair bit of heartache. It's your lotto dream though , go for it.

I'd rather a clairefontaine style national academy For players and coaches. Get a boarding school set up for the top 50 players a year. Send coaches off to study in all the top academies in Europe and USA. Get the teams to play against them too. Properly prepare the players for the real world too, as professional careers would still be a low %.

The LOI come into it with an adapted us draft system. Players get released to the club's for a small loan age 16, longer age 17 and partial owner ship age 18. Different club's each year. The academy would fully own the 16&17 year old and the 18 would be academy owner with loan compensation built into contract if sold. After 18 the scary would get development fees.

This would improve the LOI as well as national teams. #lottothoughts