new hires getting paid more

LegacyUser

Hi,

I'm in my current roles over 3 years... there's 5 in our team ( IT team )

The boss is longest here and I would be second longest here with one other lad.

We hired a new guy a year ago and we trained him in.

We have 2 open head counts which we are interview for at the moment.

By chance I seen what salary the guy we hired a year ago was on and it's 16% more then me.. and i've been training this guy... and do a lot more above my role.

I moved in house to the IT team.. and when I moved I got a small wage increase and was happy at the time..

But after seeing the new guy was getting 16% more I'm well pissed off.

Not only that but we have 2 open head counts and i'm 95% sure they will also be getting paid more..

I've talked to my boss.. and he has talked to his boss and they said there's nothing they can do.. This happens in IT they said.. where new people come in and get paid more.. I said I couldn't work like this and said I was looking for a new job.. they said they couldn't do anything and would support what I did.

Could I go to HR and try re-negotiate my contact ?

I've help build this team from nothing as when i joined it was just my boss.

The new people joining the team are expected to know a certain amount of HTML / CSS / JS and we teach them how to use the tools etc we us.

Knowing the new guy is on 16% more and the new hires will more then likely be on more is effect my work / and my head.. I can't sleep thinking about it.. Knowing the people i'm training / helping on there projects day in day out are getting paid more. Knowing the people i'm interviewing will be getting paid more.. and then I will have to train them.

We are finding it hard to fill this roles.. and if I was my exp and applied for the job i'm sure I would ask for 20-25% more than i'm on now and get it... but I can't apply for a role I currently work in

We have tons of work and as I said we have 2 open head counts... If I was to leave they would only have 1 person here that knew the roles and the boss.. the current new guy although here a year still not sure about the tools and processes so he wouldn't be able to train people.... so me leaving wouldn't be ideal for them.. but when i said it they didn't seem to care..

Any advice would be great.

I like working here.. and they are a good company.. but this is wrecking my head to much.

Thanks.

TheBlock

You may have played your cards too early with this line.

"I said I couldn't work like this and said I was looking for a new job.. they said they couldn't do anything and would support what I did."

Looks like you'll have to follow up on your assertion and find a new Job, your employer may offer you improved terms but you'll have to decide if you want to remain there.

Have you discussed career progression with your boss/HR? Is there scope for a more senior role rather than just a pay rise? Should there be another management role now your company is expanding?

BizzyC

To be honest, you've given them an ultimatum and they haven't flinched.
Either they're prepared to stick to their guns or they're calling your bluff.

If you're serious about getting more money, your best option is to look elsewhere.
I'd start moving as soon as you can, while there are still open spots on the team.
Sometimes it takes someone walking out the door to snap an employer into action.

Once new guys are in place your move will be less threatening to them.

Irish_Elect_Eng

I agree with the other posters, you acted rashly and have limited your options.

Many companies have HR policies that make ad-hoc salary increases very difficult to award. Increasing salary under direct threat of departure from an employee is a rarity also, like counter offers, it rarely works as a retention strategy.

But "I can't apply for a role I currently work in" I do not fully agree with this, if the new roles have the same title, but different contract details like salary, then you should put them on the spot and formally apply.

You say that you were promoted internally, do you have the equivalent qualifications to the new candidates? If not could you negotiate around-upskilling.

DoYouEvenLift

No choice but to actually look for a new job and leave asap now after rushing to let them know you're thinking of leaving. If you stay after that without receiving a substantial increase, which seems likely according to how you said they reacted, then it'll only get worse for you from there on. You really should keep your emotions in check in professional environments so you don't act irrationally so stuff like this doesn't happen. Just try to keep relations with them good until you leave because you need their references.

LegacyUser

Is providing training to your colleagues in your contract?

You might pull back on that. I'd also hate to train in someone that was getting paid more than me.

New hires can get paid more than people already working at the same level. It happened to me before and I had to train them up.

I agree with the above posters, you've shown your hand. And, understandably, an employer COULD NOT give in to such demands or everyone would be trying the same thing. These things get out.

If it is as you say there's a good chance that if you get offered a job in another company and you say you're only leaving because of your particular circumstances then I'd say you would get a salary increase. A dangerous game to play and relies on the company thinking you're as valuable as you think you are.

Good luck.

davo10

As others have posted, a threat to leave if an increase in wage is not received triggers an automatic negative response, agreeing to it sets a precedent for the employee and others in the future to use this tactic.

beauf

I think a better tactic would have been to looked for another job, know if you can get something better, before giving notice.Then you have options, if they offer something better then consider it, or just move. I don't see that company changing their policies in the future so you'd be back to this again at some point.

For all the talk about there being an IT shortage. Money talks. If they don't make any offers to entice people not to leave, and are happy to leave positions empty. Then it is an issue of money.

skallywag

I work in engineering myself, so not IT, but I must say I find this situation quite amazing and have not heard the likes of it before. How on earth does such a company possibly hope to retain employees with such a policy?

seamus

skallywag wrote: »

I work in engineering myself, so not IT, but I must say I find this situation quite amazing and have not heard the likes of it before. How on earth does such a company possibly hope to retain employees with such a policy?

It's pretty typical in many companies that salary reviews are carried out at set times of the year, and so ad-hoc increases are practically never provided outside of these fixed review periods.

Someone can kick and scream all they like about their salary and threatening to leave, but if it's outside of set policies they may just have to let them go.

OP, Look on the positives:

We are finding it hard to fill this roles.. and if I was my exp and applied for the job i'm sure I would ask for 20-25% more than i'm on now and get it

That means that your skillset is in demand, and if you go looking elsewhere you may indeed land that extra 20-25%.

You feel undervalued by your current employer and they can't offer you any more. So why stay there?

justback83

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

I agree with the other posters, you acted rashly and have limited your options.

Many companies have HR policies that make ad-hoc salary increases very difficult to award. Increasing salary under direct threat of departure from an employee is a rarity also, like counter offers, it rarely works as a retention strategy.

But "I can't apply for a role I currently work in" I do not fully agree with this, if the new roles have the same title, but different contract details like salary, then you should put them on the spot and formally apply.

You say that you were promoted internally, do you have the equivalent qualifications to the new candidates? If not could you negotiate around-upskilling.

Erm....not too sure if this is accurate!

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/boss-offer-counter-1968669-Mar2015/

Mrs OBumble

skallywag wrote: »

I work in engineering myself, so not IT, but I must say I find this situation quite amazing and have not heard the likes of it before. How on earth does such a company possibly hope to retain employees with such a policy?

It's pretty normal that new hires get paid more than existing staff, at a time when salaries on going up overall.

Many people don't have to be paid more in order to be willing to stay in an existing job at an existing salary. HR know this, and will typically only pay more to existing employees if some of them actually start leaving - rather than just threatening to.

Irish employment law around probation (you can be fired for no reason in the first 12 months) and redundancy (your position can be made redundant with no compensation in the first 24 months) adds to this intertia.

JaMarcusHustle

BizzyC wrote: »

To be honest, you've given them an ultimatum and they haven't flinched.
Either they're prepared to stick to their guns or they're calling your bluff.

If you're serious about getting more money, your best option is to look elsewhere.
I'd start moving as soon as you can, while there are still open spots on the team.
Sometimes it takes someone walking out the door to snap an employer into action.

Once new guys are in place your move will be less threatening to them.

Pretty much this. You've given an ultimatum - if you stick around now you will lose a lot of credibility in future negotiations (unless you already have an offer).

I got a promotion at an old job, but the new salary was not what I was expecting. I told management how I felt and how that similar positions in other companies were on X amount more than I was and that this was what I wanted. They made a new offer which was meeting me halfway, and stressed this was the absolute maximum they could offer me. I accepted it but still wasn't too happy. When I came back 2 months later with an offer from another company that was substantially higher than what I had originally asked for, all of a sudden they found it within their budget to actually offer more than the rival offer I had gotten.

Don't for one second think that any decisions at your workplace are motivated by anything other than money. If they can get in someone to do your job just as well as you for a fraction less of the cost, you'll be out the door before you know it. You really, really have to fight for what you believe you're worth because there's no one in Payroll/HR looking at salaries thinking "Oh gosh, this guy really deserves more than he's on, we should surprise him with a pay rise".

DoYouEvenLift

I've often heard people advising those in IT to regularly change jobs, every 3-4 years, and I understand why when I hear stories like this. I understand it's difficult to up and leave though for people who love their current jobs and colleagues like another poster recently on here who was also underpaid.

skallywag

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It's pretty normal that new hires get paid more than existing staff, at a time when salaries on going up overall

I would imagine though this assumes that the new staff are able to hit the ground running and contribute more or less from the off?

E.g. if the fresh hire is not going to be able to contribute anything worthwhile for say 3 years, and not giving the max contribution until 10+ then I would assume that different ground rules must apply? I had assumed from the OP's post that the people they are hiring are a lot less experience than himself/herself.

beauf

skallywag wrote: »

I would imagine though this assumes that the new staff are able to hit the ground running and contribute more or less from the off?...

I would say its more that they can't attract new people without offering more.

There may be a case where new people would be better qualified than existing staff. But that would very obvious if it occurred.

Irish_Elect_Eng

justback83 wrote: »

Erm....not too sure if this is accurate!

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/boss-offer-counter-1968669-Mar2015/

Believe me it is very true.

It is true that as a manager I would use a counter-offer to keep a key employee...if there is a short term need... and it will take too long to replace the departing employee. But that counter offer will originate with me, it will not be in response to a demand.

I like the quote

"The take home point is that leaving your job is like holding a grenade. If you pull the pin, then you have to throw it or it will probably blow up in your face. Of course, there’s the chance it’s a dud, but who wants to hold onto it long enough to find out?"

If you do a wider search you will find that a very high percentage of people leave their job in the 12 months after accepting a counter offer. There are many reasons for this most of them fall into two categories.

(1) Money was not the original problem, the original problem returns and money is a short term motivator.
(2) Once you declare your willingness to leave, long term opportunities dry up as the company will not invest in a person that could leave in the short term.

Counter- Offer\

Counter Offer

But! This is highly dependent on the job, industry, personal candidate history, etc..

My advice for professionals would be to be very wary of counter offers and that the best path is usually forward to a new opportunity,rather than back to a strained relationship and 30 pieces of Silver.

mitresize5

Leave and dont look back

If your new hires are on 16% more than you that is the market rate for someone you have to train. Therefore you are underpaid in your role. I would be looking for a 25% increase at your next position.

You work in IT, its an employees market. Use it to your advantage. Your career and benefits are in your gift and up to you maximise. Your a cost centre for every single employer you will ever have and if it suited them to off shore your role to India for instance your role would be gone in the morning.

Sheldons Brain

If the newcomer is a different gender, race, nationality, religion, sexual orientation or the like, then take a discrimination case.

Tobyglen

Same thing happened me, I was in my previous job for 2 1/2 years and the graduates I was training in were earning more than me. I asked and got a minimal increase so decided to move. Almost doubled my salary, your better off starting to interview and see what's out there, employees market so make hay while you can and don't be afraid of asking for more money.

Packattack

It’s not that they undervalue you, you have been there for a few yrs and built the company up as your boss’s trusted right hand man; and now the business is growing and expanding. When they looked around for new hires with similar experience, they’ve had to pay more now than what they had to pay you when you started plus your annual increments combined. So the reason why they pay these newbies more than you is nothing personal against you, it’s just what the current market dictates (a question of demand and supply). You must learn to overcome that bitter pill to swallow in future jobs by keeping the gob shut but look around and see what other companies will offer you. Easy for me to say this now of course. This job is gone sour in you now, time to shop around, I’m sure you’ll be fine.

Fully agree with Mitresize5 - there's no room for sentiment or friends in the workplace, you're in there to bring in the bacon for yourself and nothing more, it's a dog eat dog world.

Tar.Aldarion

Pretty much need to look for a new job now. "We can't do it" is "we won't do it" really. When I asked for a raise last year they said they never do that usually...but that they would and it's something they would think about for the future, changing policy. This year I didn't have to ask (nor was I expecting anything anyway). That is what a company should be like. I imagine you are needed, that it would cost more to replace you and that they should have acknowledged that and made some effort. They didn't. This thing of keeping staff on the same wage makes people leave, you lose valuable time and money finding somebody else and training them. My company realises this but it seems they are few and far between and you'll need to move.