Home Automation

Gadgetman496

A buddy of mine is at the early stages of planning the build of his first house and is looking at including some home automation. He was asking my opinion so I looked into it a bit and am a little surprised as to the lack of choice on offer from most of the trade electrical outlets I’ve spoken with. Many don’t carry anything worth talking about but some will get components for you if you want them to.

We were looking at the remote control of lighting, power & heating with the option to have remote access via mobile phone App included and were focusing on two options, wired & wireless. I was looking at a mesh system using protocols called Zigbee & Z-Wave which are supposed to give better coverage than wireless using RF.

Anyway I thought I’d throw out a few questions here to see what response & thoughts we might get on the whole idea of practical home automation.

1. Anyone here using any sort of home automation?

2. If yes what systems are you using?

3. Is home automation really practical or is it more of a gadget syndrome over a convenience?

4. Cost is important obviously but the fact this is a new build, would it make it easier to implement over trying to do it as a retrofit project further down the line?

5. Are there any retrofit solutions out there worth looking at?

6. Is Ireland even ready for home automation?

17larsson

I've been looking at Loxone systems for the last few weeks with the view to installing them in the future.
It can control lights, heating, AV, security etc. from one app.

I would definitely recommend wiring for a smart home even if you don't plan on getting a smart home straight away. You have a great chance now to run your cat6's and the few other cables you need before you slab

Gadgetman496

17larsson wrote: »

I've been looking at Loxone systems for the last few weeks with the view to installing them in the future.
It can control lights, heating, AV, security etc. from one app.

I would definitely recommend wiring for a smart home even if you don't plan on getting a smart home straight away. You have a great chance now to run your cat6's and the few other cables you need before you slab

Just looking through their site and I see they recommend Cat7

There's a lot to go through on their fairly detailed site too

17larsson

gadgetman496 wrote: »

Just looking through their site and I see they recommend Cat7

There's a lot to go through on their fairly detailed site too

Yeah they explain everything very well. Cat7 is probably overkill but I suppose your house will be ready for any future devices that might need it.
Good luck with the wiring

LeBash

If its a new build KNX would do all of what youre looking for. There are lots of programmers out there and there are many practical energy saving elements to the system.

Check out knx.org to get a list of partners in youre area.

086lavey

Wiring my own new build at the moment , is this something I could wire for , and second fix later , what is involved with it cable wise , any info to resurch ?

murphaph

I'm reading a bit about all this stuff as well at the moment as we're building later this year.

The choice is somewhat bewildering to be honest.

With respect to KNX...

From reading some blogs (in German) it seems one variant is to more or less allow your electrician to do a "normal" install BUT to ensure the mounting boxes for all your sockets, light switches etc. are deep enough to accommodate the later insertion of a decentralised KNX sensor/actor.

You then simply need to ensure that at all your mounting boxes you run the KNX data bus past and then if you ever need to convert a socket to be programmable, you slot in an actor module into the mounting box and you can switch the socket from then on.

For a light, you may find it is not easy to fit the KNX sensor AND the KNX actor module inside the mounting box, so make sure you run the KNX bus in the ceiling through the mounting boxes for the light fittings as well. That way you can install the sensor in the switch housing and the actor in the ceiling at the light fitting itself.

To be honest the guy recommended that you just install the lighting as a KNX system from the beginning as the lights are the most likely thing you'll want to remotely activate and the multi-sensor7actor modules are like €400 (can switch 12 circuits) whereas with the decentralised option you're looking at €100 a pop for each circuit. he basically suggests this middle ground, which i find interesting and am investigating.

I intend pulling the CAT7 (may as well, it's not much more expensive than CAT6) through myself...at least 2 network points in each room on opposite sides. I also intend pulling a CAT5 cable around to act as the bus for a future 1-wire sensor network (cheap way to get a multitude of sensor data and a single bus, if laid properly around the house can handle 256 sensors).

It would be possible to implement a lot of the features of the KNX system with a home brew 1-wire set up (there are all sorts of wonderful ideas on the net), but the modules have to be made at home and carry no CE markings etc. obviously and if anything ever went wrong and a fire ensued, the insurance company could walk away if they found out you'd been switching mains with home made actors...not a risk I'm willing to take to be honest.

freddyuk

Have you considered a wireless based system? No cabling to worry about.

17larsson

freddyuk wrote: »

Have you considered a wireless based system? No cabling to worry about.

What would the best/cheapest wireless option be?

Surely though it would sense to wire if the house is at first fix stage?

henryporter

That crowd that was already mentioned do a wireless system: http://shop.loxone.com/enen/miniserver-go.html

manufan16

I self built 3 years ago with KNX now managing my heating , lighting and security and I can now access everything through an app at home or remotely.

All your lighting and socket circuits that you want to control should be brought back to the board individually.

Then you bring the green KNX cable from each wall switch or ceiling sensor point to the next back to the board, it's a different cable to cat5/6.

If you are only building now do it this way from the start, retrofit should not even be considered. In my opinion KNX is an expensive system but by far the best option. It all depends on your budget !

17larsson

henryporter wrote: »

That crowd that was already mentioned do a wireless system: http://shop.loxone.com/enen/miniserver-go.html

Yeah but the wired version of Loxone has so much more potential than the wireless. The wireless is a nice retrofit option but if at first fix stage I can't imagine any wireless option would be better than wired.

Loxone seems to be cheaper than knx but with all the same functions

Gadgetman496

What options\companies are out there for a retrofit situation?

murphaph

manufan16 wrote: »

All your lighting and socket circuits that you want to control should be brought back to the board individually.

I think the difficulty with this is that you need to know now, what sockets you might want to remotely control in 20 years and it would be a huge amount of wiring if you ran every single socket back to the board, just in case.

The "compromise" solution I mentioned above allows you in 20 years to say "you know what, I want to control that socket in the corner after all", because the KNX bus runs through the housing, so it's a matter of slotting in an actor into that one socket, tapping into the bus and setting up your control.

KNX does seem like the "proper" way to do this stuff in a new build but as you say, it's bloody expensive to do it 100% from the beginning and possibly very wasteful as you may only ever remotely control a handful of the sockets in the end.

I do believe that all the lights should be centrally switched via KNX from the beginning as these are very likely to be remotely switched at some stage (as part of an alarm system you'd want all your lights to come on, for example).

manufan16

murphaph wrote: »

I think the difficulty with this is that you need to know now, what sockets you might want to remotely control in 20 years and it would be a huge amount of wiring if you ran every single socket back to the board, just in case.

The "compromise" solution I mentioned above allows you in 20 years to say "you know what, I want to control that socket in the corner after all", because the KNX bus runs through the housing, so it's a matter of slotting in an actor into that one socket, tapping into the bus and setting up your control.

KNX does seem like the "proper" way to do this stuff in a new build but as you say, it's bloody expensive to do it 100% from the beginning and possibly very wasteful as you may only ever remotely control a handful of the sockets in the end.

I do believe that all the lights should be centrally switched via KNX from the beginning as these are very likely to be remotely switched at some stage (as part of an alarm system you'd want all your lights to come on, for example).

It is rare that you want to control just one socket in the corner of a room - controlling the sockets can be done by room circuit and is more something you do going to bed at night or leaving the house - set your system to away or night mode and it kills all the power to sockets in a particular room saving energy. Maybe in the kitchen or A/V room you can have a few more specific circuits you want to individually control.

you could compare the price of the number of extra rolls of 2.5 and 1.5 T&E you need to go directly back to board to the retrofit actuators price

LeBash

gadgetman496 wrote: »

What options\companies are out there for a retrofit situation?

EnOcean. Tons of manufacturers out there. Most of them offer flush devices for control. Ive heard of something here called Wimo or something similar but never seen it and no idea how reliable it is but some people here have talked it up.

murphaph

manufan16 wrote: »

It is rare that you want to control just one socket in the corner of a room - controlling the sockets can be done by room circuit and is more something you do going to bed at night or leaving the house - set your system to away or night mode and it kills all the power to sockets in a particular room saving energy. Maybe in the kitchen or A/V room you can have a few more specific circuits you want to individually control.

you could compare the price of the number of extra rolls of 2.5 and 1.5 T&E you need to go directly back to board to the retrofit actuators price

Ah I see you have a fairly fundamentally different use case that I have in mind. I was thinking I would have my iRobot unit charge at a certain time in the mid afternoon when my photovoltaic is generating the most units or things like that.

I think I just like the idea of a very high level of configurability but the up front cost of doing that the traditional way is very high (all sockets fed individually from board).

I think it's also likely that I may want to switch on a table lamp in one corner this year and move it to another corner next year. I can just remove the actor from the socket and relocate it, tapping into the KNX bus in the new location. I see that being a real use case for us.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I also looked at Loxone but any solution I choose must be able to communicate with openHab, which I see as a fantastic "one for all" control system. The 1-wire sensor bus I mentioned, for example has a binding, as does KNX, so it should be fairly trivial to use the 1-wire (cheap!) bus to hang window contacts on to which when triggered, cause the KNX system to switch on all the lights, or perhaps flash them on and off to disorient an intruder. Loxone unfortunately has no binding in the openHab project, so it eliminated it for me.

manufan16

Yeah different strokes for different folks!

I have a few 5amp sockets in each room but in most cases each group of 5a is on the one circuit/actuator so lamps can get moved around if needs be. To be honest half of them aren't even used.

My alarm system does similar to the one wire bus you mention, it sends messages when we open front door contact at night , the light comes on inside or outside depending if coming or going or say a window contact has been opened in bedroom and causes temperature to drop the heating won't instantly kick for set amount of time. Good luck whatever way u build!

murphaph

How does your alarm interface with the KNX system?

Mylow

LeBash wrote: »

EnOcean. Tons of manufacturers out there. Most of them offer flush devices for control. Ive heard of something here called Wimo or something similar but never seen it and no idea how reliable it is but some people here have talked it up.

Belkin "Wemo"

Mylow

murphaph wrote: »

How does your alarm interface with the KNX system?

Which Alarm?
Fire?
Burglar?

The problem is in Ireland you need to be register to install burglar alarms. The guys who will do KNX install more than likely wont be registered. As far as I am concerned the whole burglar alarm regulation is a complete joke. An integrated Home Automation system will far outweigh any standalone burglar alarm system.

Back to the original question. I would personally wire the sockets in a radial, then you can add actuators at a later date. If your electrician is smart he would wire a radial, then make the ring by connecting sockets that were on either side of the wall, this would make it much easier for you to retrofit the KNX Actuators, you would only have to remove the interconnect between the sockets.

Phisboro Electrical carry a great range on KNX gear. They also sell enocean switches, you can buy an enocean to knx gateway.

IDAS (Peter or Niall) in Dundrum also carry Gira KNX equipment, and their prices are seriously competitive. I am based in Netherlands and I can tell you the margins in Ireland are a lot lower than here. I am also KNX certified.

If you want fancy automated KNX window motors talk to "Window and Door" (Gareth) accessories in Coolock.

I used to work in automation in Ireland, there is no money to be made installing in Ireland, hence reason for working in Netherlands.

I am not connected in any financial or family way to the companies mentioned above. they are companies I used to deal with and found them to be excellent.

Take a look at the Gira Homeserver, serious piece of kit.
I would also recommend ABB and Siemens KNX devices.

As a foot note, burglar alarms in normal private residence are practically unheard of in Netherlands apart from the super wealthy the vast majority of people do not install burglar alarms, no requirement for them.

Mylow

LeBash wrote: »

If its a new build KNX would do all of what youre looking for. There are lots of programmers out there and there are many practical energy saving elements to the system.

Check out knx.org to get a list of partners in youre area.

When looking at KNX.org, just look at number of people registered in Ireland compared to UK, almost identical numbers. FAS in their wisdom "trained" a whole load of guys. I would say you would be lucky if 1% of them have any practical experience.

There was one company who used to do a lot of KNX installs in Ireland, they have got out of it and moved into IP telephony.

murphaph

I'm in Germany so it's interesting to hear that stuff may be cheaper in Ireland, or are the margins just tighter but the consumer price is the same?

Unfortunately burglar alarms are no longer not required round here.

LeBash

murphaph wrote: »

I'm in Germany so it's interesting to hear that stuff may be cheaper in Ireland, or are the margins just tighter but the consumer price is the same?

Unfortunately burglar alarms are no longer not required round here.

Its margins. I see German list prices and the discounts and if it was similar cost the wholesalers would be making good money. Here it is single figure margins on product.

LeBash

Mylow wrote: »

Belkin "Wemo"

Ever use this? It has a good rep on boards but i get the impression that is because it may be simple to install and look stylish rather than be as adaptable to what is being used in the industry. Looks very brown goods type product.

manufan16

murphaph wrote: »

How does your alarm interface with the KNX system?

It has a knx interface that imports all your group addresses to the software so it can do lots that my home server can do.

Mylow

LeBash wrote: »

Ever use this? It has a good rep on boards but i get the impression that is because it may be simple to install and look stylish rather than be as adaptable to what is being used in the industry. Looks very brown goods type product.

Yes, and integrate using www.ifttt.com Very cheap and very effective. Also take a look at Netatmo, also can be integrated via IFTTT

Mylow

manufan16 wrote: »

It has a knx interface that imports all your group addresses to the software so it can do lots that my home server can do.

Comfort System?

Mylow

murphaph wrote: »

I'm in Germany so it's interesting to hear that stuff may be cheaper in Ireland, or are the margins just tighter but the consumer price is the same?

Unfortunately burglar alarms are no longer not required round here.

Being in Germany you could avail of free KNX training (courses ran in English and German) offered by Gira. They are located between Dusseldorf and Cologne.

Mylow

LeBash wrote: »

Its margins. I see German list prices and the discounts and if it was similar cost the wholesalers would be making good money. Here it is single figure margins on product.

I honestly don't know how most wholesalers keep going in Ireland, margins are shot to bits and every consumer thinks they are being fleeced. I get sick of reading about rip-off Ireland from people who barely step outside the country.

FionnanBurke

I've been using Zwave for the last while and I think it's really good. The only problem I've encountered in the lighting which wouldn't be a problem in a new build, just make sure you get all light switches wired for neutral.
I have it set up for security at the moment. I have motion sensors, and door / windows sensors. When the alarm is "armed" and a sensor is tripped I get notified on my phone and a siren goes off in the house.
I'll be moving on to heating control and lighting, when I get the electrics sorted.

There are loads of apps available to control it and I've recently started looking at the openremote project to build my own control panel.

Homebots.ie have a good range of stuff and he's about the same price as amazon etc. He'll help you out if you're stuck also.