Wales vs Ireland buildup [MOD WARNING POST #8]

Mahatma Geansai

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

The aim - as I stated in the post you quoted - is about developing a more complete team. We're extremely difficult to break down at present and our kicking game has been brilliant, but we pose very little threat ball-in-hand. The stats I mentioned, display this fact extremely clearly. If we want to move to the next level as a team, we need to add another dimension to our game; improving our attack is an achievable means of doing so.

While the kick-chase gameplan suits many of the strengths of our player base. As long as the two most talented, established international class, outside backs in the country can't get a sniff, I don't believe that we are playing wholly to our strengths/potential.

I'd argue that your interpretation of what stats 'matter' are colouring your viewpoint significantly.

phog

Big Nelly wrote: »

So you are going to replace a new centre partnership with a newer centre partnership and expect them to be able to just know how to play with each other?

Payne and Henshaw need game time together and as every good manager will say, get your defense right first and build from there.

There is no sense to this argument about putting Earls in, he is not even the form centre outside the current starting players, Fitzgerald is.

The constant moaning about Zebo not been in the team seems to be swapped now with constant moaning about Earls not been in the team......

If Earls gets into the team who is next?

Has there really been moaning?

A few posters have said that Earls and/or Fitz should be inlcuded but I haven't seen any real moaning.

This is a discussion board and posters are allowed post their opinion on team selcetions.

wittycynic

To be fair, most posters have argued that Fitz or Earls should be included at the expense of Jones, not Payne.

rrpc

Closed

wittycynic wrote: »

To be fair, most posters have argued that Fitz or Earls should be included at the expense of Jones, not Payne.

This definitely the most prevailing opinion on here.

The Jones thing reminds me a lot of Dave Kearney last year. Many were calling for other player(s) to replace him, but he held onto the position and was a revelation. Unfortunately Jones being on the bench has meant we've seen very little of him, so the issue won't go away.

He clearly has to be doing something right, beyond the simple fact of being right footed.

jacothelad

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

The aim - as I stated in the post you quoted - is about developing a more complete team. We're extremely difficult to break down at present and our kicking game has been brilliant, but we pose very little threat ball-in-hand. The stats I mentioned, display this fact extremely clearly. If we want to move to the next level as a team, we need to add another dimension to our game; improving our attack is an achievable means of doing so.

While the kick-chase gameplan suits many of the strengths of our player base. As long as the two most talented, established international class, outside backs in the country can't get a sniff, I don't believe that we are playing wholly to our strengths/potential.

That's very nice of you supporting Gilroy and Trimble........:D

ssaye2

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-wales-defence-ireland-six-nations-2015-1987469-Mar2015/

Swan Curry

Has the Thorndog made any predictions about changes to the team?

Thank god Gilroy doesn't play for another province. We wouldn't hear the end of it considering his try scoring recently.

Sinbad_NI

Deleted User wrote: »

Thank god Gilroy doesn't play for another province. We wouldn't hear the end of it considering his try scoring recently.

Not just the record but the footwork on some of them has been amazing to watch.

dub_skav

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

but I feel that we need to add another arrow to our quiver.

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I reckon we'll see a lot more strings to the bow when we get the the French game in the pools

Joe is going to sign this guy as assistant attack coach:

bilston

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Thank god Gilroy doesn't play for another province. We wouldn't hear the end of it considering his try scoring recently.

He has been in brillant form, but I don't think he conforms to Joe's style of play. Hopefully that will come as Trimble and Bowe won't go on forever.

ssaye2

The Pheasant2

Closed

Heaslip in at 8 and Jordi to the bench. Jones keeps his place.

Podge_irl

Well that was boring.

Otacon

RK
TB
JP
RH
SZ
JS
CM
JH
SOB
POM
POC
DT
MR
RB
JMcG

SC
CH
MM
IH
JM
ER
IM
FJ

Swan Curry

no curveballs #schmidtout

Mahatma Geansai

Team as expected.

According to Joe, provincial form has little relevance to the international side due to the difference in the standard of rugby at both levels.

Peregrine

Swan Curry wrote: »

no curveballs #schmidtout

That's the curveball

bilston

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Team as expected.

According to Joe, provincial form has little relevance to the international side due to the difference in the standard of rugby at both levels.

I'm not watching the press conference but presumably that means the provincial form of one player in comparison to international form of another is of "little relevance". I'd have thought that was common sense.

Neil3030

Good on you Jonny, none of this twitter sh*te.

wittycynic

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Team as expected.

According to Joe, provincial form has little relevance to the international side due to the difference in the standard of rugby at both levels.

In other words, if you are not already playing in the national team, you have no chance of getting into the team as how you play for your club is irrelevant. I'm sure that will be heartening for the likes of Fitzgerald, Earls, and Gilroy to hear.

.ak

Noopti wrote: »

Great stuff. Thanks for posting. I am hoping as the campaign continues, the myth about Payne not doing much will continue to be obliterated.

Don't get me wrong, brilliant player and doing exactly what is asked of him, but those stats don't mean much in terms of his abilities at 13.

S12b

wittycynic wrote: »

In other words, if you are not already playing in the national team, you have no chance of getting into the team as how you play for your club is irrelevant. I'm sure that will be heartening for the likes of Fitzgerald, Earls, and Gilroy to hear.

In fairness, these players aren't stupid....they know a great showing versus Zebre/Dragons etc hardly compares with a solid showing in a 6 Nations match against England.

bilston

.ak wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, brilliant player and doing exactly what is asked of him, but those stats don't mean much in terms of his abilities at 13.

But he is following a gameplan. Presumably Fitzgerald, Earls or Cave would be asked to fulfil the same role. Would they do anything different? I suppose we would only know if they were selected.

I have a funny feeling we might see a bit more from Payne (and Ireland in general) this weekend.

wittycynic

wittycynic wrote: »

In other words, if you are not already playing in the national team, you have no chance of getting into the team as how you play for your club is irrelevant. I'm sure that will be heartening for the likes of Fitzgerald, Earls, and Gilroy to hear.

Or

In other words, Joe picks a plan to beat a team - then pick the team to implement the plan.

It's actually not conservative. Being conservative just means picking all our best players all the time.

What Joe is doing is picking the players to do the job, generally speaking the ones that have had the benefit of the most time in camp are the ones most equipped to do the job.

Hence - provincial form is important, but international performance and time in camp is more important.

I would say it's incredibly heartening to know that if you learn your role and follow the plan you go into the selection window regardless of whether or not your the best player.

bilston

wittycynic wrote: »

In other words, if you are not already playing in the national team, you have no chance of getting into the team as how you play for your club is irrelevant. I'm sure that will be heartening for the likes of Fitzgerald, Earls, and Gilroy to hear.

I disagree , if those three players carry on their good form into the Champions Cup/Pro 12 run in/Play Offs then they will be in contention.

Mahatma Geansai

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Team as expected.

According to Joe, provincial form has little relevance to the international side due to the difference in the standard of rugby at both levels.

Are you disagreeing with that?

Podge_irl

Schmidt's logic is sound insofar as you can't compare performing well against the Dragons to performing well against England. This does not mean it's impossible to break into the team. If one of the players in the squad does not perform up to the required level then an opening will develop that provincial form can propel you into.

Put simply, if Fitz/Earls hadn't done enough to break into the squad before the start of the 6N, playing well against a weakened Dragons or Zebre team is hardly going to make their case.

ssaye2

Non twitter crap pic

Swiwi.

A giant marquee with Warren G's face on it will be erected

S12b wrote: »

In fairness, these players aren't stupid....they know a great showing versus Zebre/Dragons etc hardly compares with a solid showing in a 6 Nations match against England.

After last weekend...

Zebre/Dragons/your pick of the Irish provinces

sydthebeat

Cave, earls, Fitzgerald and Gilroy were all part of the extended training squad before the competition....


they obviously didnt do enough then in training to warrant a place.

You CANNOT say they havent been given a chance.

shuffol

bilston wrote: »

I'm not watching the press conference but presumably that means the provincial form of one player in comparison to international form of another is of "little relevance". I'd have thought that was common sense.

Except with regards to Jones there's not really much to be said about his international form as he's only played a handful of minutes.

I'm not too concerned with Jones being on the bench when we're entering the final stages of games seeing out a lead, it's if we're losing and the camera pans to him warming up that it'll hit home how limited a player he is compared to Fitz and Earls.

rudiger2.0

Can anybody tell me who's playing at out-half? I can't make it out without the twitter name.

rudiger2.0

rudiger2.0 wrote: »

Can anybody tell me who's playing at out-half? I can't make it out without the twitter name.

No probs - it's Ian Keatley, he doesn't have a twitter account so that's why the picture and name looks like Sexton.

aimee1

S12b wrote: »

In fairness, these players aren't stupid....they know a great showing versus Zebre/Dragons etc hardly compares with a solid showing in a 6 Nations match against England.

spot on. Its like the raving about Zebo against Sale cementing his place in the irish team for Italy when it bore no relevance to selection.

wittycynic

Podge_irl wrote: »

Schmidt's logic is sound insofar as you can't compare performing well against the Dragons to performing well against England. This does not mean it's impossible to break into the team. If one of the players in the squad does not perform up to the required level then an opening will develop that provincial form can propel you into.

Put simply, if Fitz/Earls hadn't done enough to break into the squad before the start of the 6N, playing well against a weakened Dragons or Zebre team is hardly going to make their case.

It seems to be pretty impossible to break into the team.

From the outset Joe's preferred 15 was:

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Toner
5. O'Connell
6. O'Mahony
7. O'Brien
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Trimble
12. D'arcy
13. O'Driscoll
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

The only instance of a change based on form is D'arcy being dropped for Henshaw. O'Driscoll retired, Trimble is injured, and Healy isn't match fit. Other than that he has dropped everyone for his preferred starting 15 at the first available opportunity and there seems to be little question that club form doesn't matter much to Joe.

Neil3030

Imagine the conversation:-

"Hello"

"SEXTOOOO, it's Rurrrrry from IRFU online mooooorkeshing. Loike we've got a abso fab idea for the teamsheet, royt, loike instead of players names, because you're all such a bunch of ledge-hammers, we'll totes put in your twitter account names, what's yours?"

"My name is Jonathan Sexton"

<click>

accidentprone1

wittycynic wrote: »

It seems to be pretty impossible to break into the team.

From the outset Joe's preferred 15 was:

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Toner
5. O'Connell
6. O'Mahony
7. O'Brien
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Trimble
12. D'arcy
13. O'Driscoll
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

The only instance of a change based on form is D'arcy being dropped for Henshaw. O'Driscoll retired, Trimble is injured, and Healy isn't match fit. Other than that he has dropped everyone for his preferred starting 15 at the first available opportunity and there seems to be little question that club form doesn't matter much to Joe.

Have any of the remaining players played badly enough to be dropped?

aimee1

wittycynic wrote: »

It seems to be pretty impossible to break into the team.

From the outset Joe's preferred 15 was:

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Toner
5. O'Connell
6. O'Mahony
7. O'Brien
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Trimble
12. D'arcy
13. O'Driscoll
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

The only instance of a change based on form is D'arcy being dropped for Henshaw. O'Driscoll retired, Trimble is injured, and Healy isn't match fit. Other than that he has dropped everyone for his preferred starting 15 at the first available opportunity and there seems to be little question that club form doesn't matter much to Joe.

or it could be thats the best 15 available to begin the game to execute his gameplan.

Podge_irl

wittycynic wrote: »

The only instance of a change based on form is D'arcy being dropped for Henshaw. O'Driscoll retired, Trimble is injured, and Healy isn't match fit. Other than that he has dropped everyone for his preferred starting 15 at the first available opportunity and there seems to be little question that club form doesn't matter much to Joe.

What other change to his preferred starting team do you think form merited?

.ak

bilston wrote: »

But he is following a gameplan. Presumably Fitzgerald, Earls or Cave would be asked to fulfil the same role. Would they do anything different? I suppose we would only know if they were selected.

I have a funny feeling we might see a bit more from Payne (and Ireland in general) this weekend.

Yes, I think Payne has a massive ceiling. I'm just hoping we can see what he's capable of in terms of movement and distribution sooner than later.

MJohnston

Someone has already said it best - Ireland've won 10 games on the trot - and all but two of the 16 or so played under Schmidt's leadership. Of those two, the game against England I recall being one where they actually played very well, and the loss was simply to a very good team. Apparently Ireland also played New Zealand, but I can't find any reference to that one anywhere. So, of course we're not seeing much in the way of changes to the XV, or the 23 - and indeed, it's probably why we've not seen a huge variation in tactics either. I suspect the August friendlies will be an opportunity, like the Wolfhounds, for a bit of experimentation, but who knows, the more a consistent, winning team plays together, the better imo.

Peregrine

MJohnston wrote: »

Someone has already said it best - Ireland've won 10 games on the trot - and all but two of the 16 or so played under Schmidt's leadership. Of those two, the game against England I recall being one where they actually played very well, and the loss was simply to a very good team. Apparently Ireland also played New Zealand, but I can't find any reference to that one anywhere.

Australia in 2013 too.

MJohnston

Nim wrote: »

Australia in 2013 too.

You're right. I'd tend to write that Samoa tour off tbh, for the obvious reasons.

Celly Smunt

Damn! i thought Joe would have put out a team that would have us scoring 10 tries per game! Such a negative team there must be only 10 or so world class players in that team sheet.

Nah but in all seriousness,very strong team without many if any defensive weak links. Sean O'Brien and Heaslip back up forward also is a huge welcome.

ssaye2

Roof OPEN, @IrishRugby team news and views of Rob Howley. All happening on our live blog >> http://bit.ly/1b3Rbiz

ssaye2

A reminder in case you missed it earlier of Rob Howley's quotes on the roof...
“It will be open,” he said.
“We have taken the decision it will be open. We wanted to know sooner rather than later.
“The weather forecast is pretty good for the weekend and something we will look forward to.
“I am not sure when it was the last time but this is the first time in our coaching regime since 2008 we have decided to have it open.”

Korat

I feel sorry for Tommy O'Donnell, he's been excellent when he's played this year, but that's the best team we can put out. Should be a cracking game.

I'd love to see what the team would be like in the alternate universe where Fitzgerald has been playing injury free since the last six nations and playing to his best.

Celly Smunt

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd love to see what the team would be like in the alternate universe where Fitzgerald has been playing injury free since the last six nations and playing to his best.

it would probably look something like this