Wales vs Ireland buildup [MOD WARNING POST #8]

I don't want to open this can of worms but... I'd imagine it would be Zebo-free given he got his chance due to Fitz and Kearney being injured.

I'm strictly talking about a theoretical situation where Zebo never got a chance under Schmidt and Fitzgerald is back to his best (think starter for the Lions with more experience) under Schmidt's coaching. Zebo more than deserves his spot right now.

Uno my Uno.

Apparently Rob Howley is very disappointed that "respected former player and journalist" (snigger) Franno would Make "personal" remarks about Gatland, and he thinks Franno has gone to far.

So thats a member of the Welsh Coaching team complaining about someone making controversial but essentially pointless comments about the opposition before a game. Presumably they don't teach irony in Wales and they don't have any kettles or pots to call black.

Sanjuro

Is there anything the Welsh coaching ticket and media don't complain about?

irishbucsfan

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

Apparently Rob Howley is very disappointed that "respected former player and journalist" (snigger) Franno would Make "personal" remarks about Gatland, and he thinks Franno has gone to far.

So thats a member of the Welsh Coaching team complaining about someone making controversial but essentially pointless comments about the opposition before a game. Presumably they don't teach irony in Wales and they don't have any kettles or pots to call black.

Eh, Did you see what Franno said?

"Personally, I think he has the intellectual properties of a tub of Flora"

I don't recall anything like that from that group?

To be fair, he actually said it back when the tournament began. No one noticed until now because those on the correct side of the Irish Sea are aware of Francis and know not to bother reading or listening to anything spewing out of his gob or through his keyboard. It's still embarrassing enough everytime someone overseas notices something of his and we have to admit that he actually gets paid for this stuff.

thomond2006

Neil Francis is a ligind.

.ak

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd love to see what the team would be like in the alternate universe where Fitzgerald has been playing injury free since the last six nations and playing to his best.

As celly smunt pointed out... he pretty much has. Fitz is playing some of his best rugby lately, against good sides too. But the glove doesn't fit... right now anyway.

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Eh, Did you see what Franno said?

"Personally, I think he has the intellectual properties of a tub of Flora"

I don't recall anything like that from that group?

To be fair, he actually said it back when the tournament began. No one noticed until now because those on the correct side of the Irish Sea are aware of Francis and know not to bother reading or listening to anything spewing out of his gob or through his keyboard. It's still embarrassing enough everytime someone overseas notices something of his and we have to admit that he actually gets paid for this stuff.

Franno is one of the few I wish the public could have an injunction raised against him printing his thoughts to the media.

flutered

Korat wrote: »

I feel sorry for Tommy O'Donnell, he's been excellent when he's played this year, but that's the best team we can put out. Should be a cracking game.

as do i, but rugby is now a 23 -30 man team, tod got the breaks and took them, with perhaps a change of opposition or a different game plan he will get another chance

Uno my Uno.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Eh, Did you see what Franno said?

"Personally, I think he has the intellectual properties of a tub of Flora"

I don't recall anything like that from that group?

To be fair, he actually said it back when the tournament began. No one noticed until now because those on the correct side of the Irish Sea are aware of Francis and know not to bother reading or listening to anything spewing out of his gob or through his keyboard. It's still embarrassing enough everytime someone overseas notices something of his and we have to admit that he actually gets paid for this stuff.

I did and just like everyone else I though "Franno, what burk." and went on with my life.:D:D:D

I know Gatland and Co stop short of actually personally insulting people but they have come out with plenty of tripe aimed at causing ructions so it gave me a wry smile to see how upset they were about it when the shoe was on the other foot. And of course Gatland is the Welsh coach, it is not his job to go around lobbing hand grenades about the place, whereas that is Franno's Job. Lord knows what else he's good for.

total former

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

I did and just like everyone else I though "Franno, what burk." and went on with my life.:D:D:D

I know Gatland and Co stop short of actually personally insulting people but they have come out with plenty of tripe aimed at causing ructions so it gave me a wry smile to see how upset they were about it when the shoe was on the other foot. And of course Gatland is the Welsh coach, it is not his job to go around lobbing hand grenades about the place, whereas that is Franno's Job. Lord knows what else he's good for.

Nah, that's not fair at all. People got all bent out of shape about Shaun Edwards criticising the choke tackle a couple of weeks ago, but he was criticising the technique, the refereeing of it and the detraction from the game that it creates. You might not agree with it but there was nothing personal aimed at anybody within the Irish set up. Is it mind games? Maybe, but it's not remotely comparable to personal insults against the coach.

.ak

.ak wrote: »

As celly smunt pointed out... he pretty much has. Fitz is playing some of his best rugby lately, against good sides too. But the glove doesn't fit... right now anyway.

Fitzgerald was supposed to start in the first game last year but dropped out at the last minute. The glove was firmly on.

Uno my Uno.

total former wrote: »

Nah, that's not fair at all. People got all bent out of shape about Shaun Edwards criticising the choke tackle a couple of weeks ago, but he was criticising the technique, the refereeing of it and the detraction from the game that it creates. You might not agree with it but there was nothing personal aimed at anybody within the Irish set up. Is it mind games? Maybe, but it's not remotely comparable to personal insults against the coach.

If it was someone from the Irish Camp I'd agree with you totally but seeing as its a pundit (and a crap one) I think its a crock. They love stirring it and have done for years, thats all they are trying to do now, Franno's comments are water off a ducks Ar$e to Gatland.

thebaz

the only change I would make is Healy for McGrath - McGrath has been brilliant , but Cian Healy is Cian Healy - then who am i to question Joe S ?

Swiwi.

A giant marquee with Warren G's face on it will be erected

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

If it was someone from the Irish Camp I'd agree with you totally but seeing as its a pundit (and a crap one) I think its a crock. They love stirring it and have done for years, thats all they are trying to do now, Franno's comments are water off a ducks Ar$e to Gatland.

:eek:

Water off a duck's back, no? Just think about it...

irishbucsfan

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

If it was someone from the Irish Camp I'd agree with you totally but seeing as its a pundit (and a crap one) I think its a crock. They love stirring it and have done for years, thats all they are trying to do now, Franno's comments are water off a ducks Ar$e to Gatland.

There was absolutely nothing inflammatory whatsoever about what Howley said:

“The wonderful thing about rugby is everyone is entitled to their opinion about how the game should be played and about personalities within the game.

“When it becomes personal it becomes very disappointing and the game is bigger than that.

“It’s a players game and for someone to have an individual criticism and a personal snipe on someone who has won a Lions series and been involved with Grand Slams and Six Nations Championships is very disappointing to happen within our game.

“Everyone, whether you are on the Ireland or Wales side, we just want the best game for the players and coaches on the weekend.

“We don’t need comments on that which I regard as a personal attack and totally unfair.”

I have no idea how someone could have a problem with that. Especially given it was in response to a question.

If Howley was intending to rile up the Irish players or management then he's done an even worse job of that than he did of coaching the Lions attack...

Bridge93

Closed

Roof open. Suck it Wales

Magico Gonzalez

Francis is a tabloid journalist, as such he has to run his mouth off and spout shyte to sell papers. He's pretty good at it.

Wang King

thomond2006 wrote: »

Neil Francis is a ligind.

Bell.... Ah never mind

Uno my Uno.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There was absolutely nothing inflammatory whatsoever about what Howley said:


I have no idea how someone could have a problem with that. Especially given it was in response to a question.

If Howley was intending to rile up the Irish players or management then he's done an even worse job of that than he did of coaching the Lions attack...

I just think its a whole load of guff over nothing really. In the same way that the Irish camp don't get upset about the crap written about them I wouldn't have thought that the Welsh players or coaches are two concerned about the Irish tabloids, or even been very aware of them.

I still think its ironic that the Welsh are expressing disappointment over controversial remarks considering their Coach's preference for making silly comments. I don't think its a particularity big deal either way, after all it was mostly reported in Wales Online.

SaveOurLyric

whatawaster wrote: »

Imo Fitzgerald for Payne is the only contestable position at the minute

WTF ?
Not only is this not a contestible. Its a ball that wont even be kicked.

SaveOurLyric

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I'd have Earls in for Payne and Fitz on the bench.

We have the least clean-breaks and offloads of any of the nations by a significant distance, and our meters gained with the ball are dwarfed by England, France, and Scotland. All of the above is a symptom of our no-risk, kick-chase based gameplan, but I feel that we need to add another arrow to our quiver. If we add some incision to our backline, we should become a very complete side with real aspirations in the RWC.

You say this like its a bad thing. It the very strategy we are going for. Its a fantastic achievement. Its why we a competitive.
Offloads are so passé. Over a championship they are too high risk. When you can stack a backline with kick chasers you dont have to take silly gambles like those. They are for bad teams.
Earls and Fitz might be better at the clean breaks and offloads (well Fitz on the offloads anyway) - but they arent as good at the game we want to play, so they are no more than useful backup.

SaveOurLyric

Teferi wrote: »

France have 2 tries in the tournament. We have 3. Scotland are bottom of the table and have 4. They can gain all the metres they want if they're going to play like drains.

England gained a load of metres against us but done nothing with it.

Well said.
All those types off stats have been rendered obsolete. If they ever had any relevance anyway.

SaveOurLyric

Tox56 wrote: »

Yeah but it's not really comparable to Kidney until we start losing. If we start losing and Schmidt refuses to mix things up I'll definitely be pissed off. I've not been particularly happy with some selections (OK, I'm talking about Jones here) but we're constantly winning and whatever he's doing is working, there isn't that much complaining you can do. Although some will try of course

Dunno. 'mixing things up', or chop-and-change coaching is the sign of a sham coach. He is rolling the dice on different players hoping someone produces the goods because, he, the coach, has no idea how to make the team produce the goods. The good coach, one who is really delivery a gameplan and team performance greater than the sum of the part in his team, improves how he wants the team to play, and will tend greatly to continuity. Changes are made due to injuries, players fading out with age, or some young blood talent coming along who can be educated into the system.

SaveOurLyric

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

All of the above is a symptom of our no-risk, kick-chase based gameplan, but I feel that we need to add another arrow to our quiver. If we add some incision to our backline, we should become a very complete side with real aspirations in the RWC.

Why? Whats the benefit of more arrows ?
If you have the Winchester you just keep firing it.
Variety is a superfluous indulgence, if those varieties are less effective than your plan A. If plan A is the winner. Stick to it.

.ak

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

You say this like its a bad thing. It the very strategy we are going for. Its a fantastic achievement. Its why we a competitive.
Offloads are so passé. Over a championship they are too high risk. When you can stack a backline with kick chasers you dont have to take silly gambles like those. They are for bad teams.
Earls and Fitz might be better at the clean breaks and offloads (well Fitz on the offloads anyway) - but they arent as good at the game we want to play, so they are no more than useful backup.

I presume you're being tongue in cheek but just incase... we're very much trying to break the gain line and put the ball through the hands. Schmidt said himself the guys are encouraged to offload as long as they feel it's on. Henshaw and Murray were very much looking for the offload against England.

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

I presume you're being tongue in cheek but just incase... we're very much trying to break the gain line and put the ball through the hands. Schmidt said himself the guys are encouraged to offload as long as they feel it's on. Henshaw and Murray were very much looking for the offload against England.

That also ignores the fact Earls and Ftizgerald are both very effective at the game we want to play.

SaveOurLyric

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Team as expected.

According to Joe, provincial form has little relevance to the international side due to the difference in the standard of rugby at both levels.

Id also think the rubbish being played by the provinces is a big factor, but Joe is too nice a guy, and too diplomatic to mention it.
You cannot judge players 'form' for their provinces when their coaches are either trying to play a different game or dont even know what type of game they are trying to play.

What he wants to say (sorry Joe for putting the words in your mouth) is 'I know what game I want to play, and I know the best players to do that. I will pick them and show them what I want them to do. What they are doing or not doing week in week out with their provinces is irrelevant to me'.

SaveOurLyric

Deleted User wrote: »

Or

In other words, Joe picks a plan to beat a team - then pick the team to implement the plan.

It's actually not conservative. Being conservative just means picking all our best players all the time.

What Joe is doing is picking the players to do the job, generally speaking the ones that have had the benefit of the most time in camp are the ones most equipped to do the job.

Hence - provincial form is important, but international performance and time in camp is more important.

I would say it's incredibly heartening to know that if you learn your role and follow the plan you go into the selection window regardless of whether or not your the best player.

Exactly.

The Zeebmeister is a very interesting case on this point. 'Overlooked' people might have argued in the past, and offered more x-factor than DK or even Trimbers people would have argues. But he wasnt playing method Joe at the time, while clearly a talented and athletic plater. Worked on implementing method Joe, with Joes help, then gets his chance due to injuries, and implements method Joe. Holds his place. Fully merited.

That is the encouragement to players outside the squad. But there are only so many places. He is not going to drop someone who is doing the business. That loyalty is both good man management (not only of the player in question, but for the whole greater squad ethos), and a pragmatic winning policy.

CatFromHue

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Exactly.

The Zeebmeister is a very interesting case on this point. 'Overlooked' people might have argued in the past, and offered more x-factor than DK or even Trimbers people would have argues. But he wasnt playing method Joe at the time, while clearly a talented and athletic plater. Worked on implementing method Joe, with Joes help, then gets his chance due to injuries, and implements method Joe. Holds his place. Fully merited.

That is the encouragement to players outside the squad. But there are only so many places. He is not going to drop someone who is doing the business. That loyalty is both good man management (not only of the player in question, but for the whole greater squad ethos), and a pragmatic winning policy.

Zebo had very very little game time before last years 6N so like Earls this season he has to wait it out as the incumbents are doing so well.

SaveOurLyric

.ak wrote: »

I presume you're being tongue in cheek but just incase... we're very much trying to break the gain line and put the ball through the hands. Schmidt said himself the guys are encouraged to offload as long as they feel it's on. Henshaw and Murray were very much looking for the offload against England.

W......ell, maybe a little. But only a little in truth.

'On' is a judgement thing, and it is clear that they are looking for very safe offloads. And you offload only in the opposition half where the downside risk of turning it over is minimised.
And line breaks are something they try to engineer from a long way out through mutliple phases to create that line break opportunity that is almost a done deal as it is taken. i.e. a serious of a variety of coodinated ruck-ruck, kick-chase, and box kicks to pull the opposition around the field, out of shape, force mis-matches, leave a few bodies on the ground or struggling to keep up with the play. Then yes you pick your moment to go for a gap or try the offload. But if the above strategy is not creating those very strong opportinities, you dont offload. Which can be for long periods of a game, or against good teams, be few and far between.

.ak

Match thread here.