Junior cert dispute between Unions and Dept of Education

Farmer Pudsey

Is the present dispute a step too far by teachers. In reality they seem to be disputing the right of society to make changes to the Education system. Should the government just implement there policy objectives and if teaching staff refuse deal with it down the line as breach of contract.

Is this tantamount to the PS refusing to implement government policy. Would it be allowable for ordinary Guards to refuse to implement say traffic enforcment policy, or health staff to refuse to say collect charges imposed by government or revenue to collect maybe a new tax. IMO they have crossed the rubicon and government should now just implement the new education policy.

I wonder if they did how much support the TUI and ASTI would get and even if they did who would blink first. I also thisnk it is a very bad advertisment for Unions where they now consider that they have the final say on education policy.

BoJack Horseman

Its always been ever thus.

Reform can't happen without vested interest sign-off, at which point its no longer reform.

TheBody

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Is the present dispute a step too far by teachers. In reality they seem to be disputing the right of society to make changes to the Education system. Should the government just implement there policy objectives and if teaching staff refuse deal with it down the line as breach of contract.

Is this tantamount to the PS refusing to implement government policy. Would it be allowable for ordinary Guards to refuse to implement say traffic enforcment policy, or health staff to refuse to say collect charges imposed by government or revenue to collect maybe a new tax. IMO they have crossed the rubicon and government should now just implement the new education policy.

I wonder if they did how much support the TUI and ASTI would get and even if they did who would blink first. I also thisnk it is a very bad advertisment for Unions where they now consider that they have the final say on education policy.

Do you understand the reasons for the dispute?

The teachers don't want to grade their own students. Teachers will be persuced with Mammy and Daddy complaining about results given to their little darling. It would be a disaster.

In this instance, I support the unions.

Rightwing

I'm not sure what this has to do with Ir economy.

I think I would side with the Govt on this one. Saves money if little else.

Paulzx

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

IMO they have crossed the rubicon and government should now just implement the new education policy.

Ehhh.........there's a fairly obvious problem with doing that. The people they expect to carry out the actual reforms won't do it.

Jan O Sullivan can talk tough (to me she's made a huge strategic mistake) all she wants but there is no actual physical way of forcing this through without cooperation......unless she's going to somehow sit in and teach in thousands of classrooms herself.

andrew

TheBody wrote: »

The teachers don't want to grade their own students. Teachers will be persuced with Mammy and Daddy complaining about results given to their little darling. It would be a disaster.

Do they have to do that? Are they allowed to do a swap with a local school, or even another teacher who teaches the same subject?

In any case, isn't telling intrusive parents to feck off not part of a teacher's job?

Icepick

TheBody wrote: »

The teachers don't want to grade their own students. Teachers will be persuced with Mammy and Daddy complaining about results given to their little darling. It would be a disaster.

If they can't stand over their work, they are in the wrong job.

TheBody

Icepick wrote: »

If they can't stand over their work, they are in the wrong job.

That's not what I am saying.

Some parents have blinkered notions of their childs ability. So when a teacher may correctly award say "C" for some subject, the parent goes bananas and blames the teacher for grading too hard rather than looking at their child.

It'll be a disaster if it goes ahead.

hfallada

TheBody wrote: »

That's not what I am saying.

Some parents have blinkered notions of their childs ability. So when a teacher may correctly award say "C" for some subject, the parent goes bananas and blames the teacher for grading too hard rather than looking at their child.

It'll be a disaster if it goes ahead.

The leaving cert in Germany is actually graded within in the school by the teachers of the students. They also used to get yearly exams to map progress of students. Also corrected by guess who? The teachers of the students. But no one complained about it

I dont get your point at all. When a child goes to third level, their papers will be corrected by the lecturer. I doubt the lecturers of UCD and DIT are getting calls from parents over their son not getting a 2.1 in their summer exams.

Unions dont give a **** about the students and rightly so. The unions job is to protect the interest of their members. But at some stage unions are going to have to stand up and say what they really want for their members. Which I imagine is more money

RGS

andrew wrote: »

Do they have to do that? Are they allowed to do a swap with a local school, or even another teacher who teaches the same subject?

No they cant swap with another school, the department want teachers to assess their own pupils for state exam certification. This is not an appropriate way to run a state examination.

yellowlabrador

maybe it's time to cancel that particular state examination? It's after all a left over from the days when children didn't stay in school till 18. We had a similar certificate in Belgium where I went to school. I was a bit of a rebel and signed mine with purple ink. my headmistress went bananas and said I'd never get a job and I was ruined for life. Can you guess how often I've needed to present it at an interview? Yearly exams, corrected by the teachers make more sense.I'd even get the teachers to compose the questions.

robp

hfallada wrote: »

The leaving cert in Germany is actually graded within in the school by the teachers of the students. They also used to get yearly exams to map progress of students. Also corrected by guess who? The teachers of the students. But no one complained about it

Do you have any evidence at all this approach matches objectivity in the Irish system? Its not just about parents complaining. A lot of bias is subconscious. A troublesome pupil might earn a lower mark then deserves.

hfallada wrote: »

I dont get your point at all. When a child goes to third level, their papers will be corrected by the lecturer. I doubt the lecturers of UCD and DIT are getting calls from parents over their son not getting a 2.1 in their summer exams.

Marking in third level is far less transparent and there is no reason to assume it is as fair as second level. When I went through the university system I experienced lecturers who told me they had never failed a student. That goes to show in some departments it is not an exemplary system.

There is a major effort in making the marking blind but I think there are many situations where full objectivity is absent. Yet generally speaking third level is too specialized to have the approach used in second level.

BoJack Horseman

I'm pretty sure my JC was also marked in house....(late 90's)
The world kept turning somehow.

Farmer Pudsey

The junior cert is an exam of little importance now. it is mainly used for streaming of students for the Leaving Certificate. The sate wants to move away from a completely one finalexam based system to mixture of project/assessments and exam system. Most schools hold exams through out the year so this is just formalising this structure.

It would be impossible to completely outside mark under this structure. Yes you will have parents that disagree with marks however buffers could be put in place to prevent such issue. An appeals process, independant cross checking would also be taking place to verify structure and system equality.

The reality is that if you work in any well paid job nowadays you will have people that challange you so this excuse is invalid. The real issue however is the complete challenge to a policy change by a vested interest. As I posted in my opening post would it be acceptable for guards to refuse to implement traffic law or the revenue to collect a new tax.

The other issue is that in other countries this is practiced and even if it was not there is nothing wrong with being first. However I think the real reason is some teachers are looking at this as a leaver to look at pay issue's. It is also unfair on those students that need to sit exams this summers that there study will be interrupted by teacher's action's.

Icepick

TheBody wrote: »

That's not what I am saying.

Some parents have blinkered notions of their childs ability. So when a teacher may correctly award say "C" for some subject, the parent goes bananas and blames the teacher for grading too hard rather than looking at their child.

It'll be a disaster if it goes ahead.

Back to my previous point then - look for a different job if you can't do this one.

Should the guards not go after criminals because they go bananas and blame them for arresting them?

yellowlabrador

Can we do a straw poll and find out how many people have had to present their junior cert at any occasion?

andrew

yellowlabrador wrote: »

Can we do a straw poll and find out how many people have had to present their junior cert at any occasion?

Just because the results of the JC aren’t used by employers doesn’t mean the exam isn’t useful. If exams in general were only useful to the extent that their result is used by employers, then the only useful exam anyone does is the Leaving Cert, and College exams.

The JC is a dry run of the LC. It gives students a good idea of what it’s like to have to study for a few weeks/months in advance of an exam and what it’s like to have to know by heart a lot of information. It gives them an experience of a formal exam situation, exam technique, and the kind of pressure and stress you face during a week or two of long exams. The results are a useful benchmark for how you’re doing, whether your study habits are OK, what you need to work on, which subjects you’re particularly good at, etc. etc.

That said, I recall being asked for my JC results while applying for a job (probably in a bank) a few years ago.

The Rape of Lucretia

TheBody wrote: »

Do you understand the reasons for the dispute?

The teachers don't want to grade their own students. Teachers will be persuced with Mammy and Daddy complaining about results given to their little darling. It would be a disaster.

In this instance, I support the unions.

But its the teachers job to teach. Not to administrate the education system. They should just get on with their jobs as their employer decide they should do it best.
The usual cant when they are simply resisting change or want to engineer a pay or condition improvement for themselves is to say how they are only striking out of concern for the standards of education and their student. Really ? Pull the other one.
Just get on with yisser jobs.

gaiscioch

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

But its the teachers job to teach. Not to administrate the education system.

Precisely, which is why they shouldn't be engaged in administrative tasks outside of teaching, like marking state exams or, for that matter, sitting around in rooms for 33 hours extra per year talking nonsense under the guise of "Croke Park hours" and the Haddington Road Agreement. There is absolutely nothing to do with the passionate, inspirational vocation of teaching in that stultifying administrative nonsense. This is all being driven by cost saving, and the Department of Education is simply attempting to replicate the yellow pack, bureaucracy-suffocated English education system in Ireland. That culture is alien to the deeply-rewarding profession of teaching where opening worlds of knowledge and new thinking to kids is at the very centre of a teacher's profession.

andrew

gaiscioch wrote: »

Precisely, which is why they shouldn't be engaged in administrative tasks outside of teaching, like marking state exams

Isn't it teachers who currently mark state exams? Isn't marking exams a fundamental part of a teacher's job, in the same way that exams are a fundamental part of a person's education (for better or for worse).

gaiscioch

andrew wrote: »

Isn't it teachers who currently mark state exams? Isn't marking exams a fundamental part of a teacher's job, in the same way that exams are a fundamental part of a person's education (for better or for worse).

Yes, *some* teachers volunteer (for payment) to mark the state exams but not to mark their own students in the state exams. Correcting their students is, as you say, a part of a teacher's job. The purpose of this is to help students improve their ideas and understanding via critical engagement with the ideas from classes. As such the feedback of such assessments are an important part of teaching. However, the correction of terminal exams like the JC serves no such role. Indeed, such terminal exams as the existing JC, for all its faults, serve to act as an impartial assessment of not only the student but of the teacher. As such, for the sake of quality of learning and statewide consistency it is in the interests of society to ensure such a distinct separation between the teaching process and the terminal assessment of that process continues.

byhookorbycrook

The other big issue is that project work for certification purposes will mean parents doing the work or paying a grind tutor to do it.

What about part time teachers or those in fee paying schools?They will be under pressure to provide "results", even when the result is not a proper one. Friends of mine taught in the Middle East and they weren't long about being told by the schools that Sheik X's son ALWAYS gets an A.

Paulzx

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The other big issue is that project work for certification purposes will mean parents doing the work or paying a grind tutor to do it.

.

Exactly. Project work isn't new. Many moons ago when I did Engineering for my leaving cert we had to submit projects which we had the year to manufacture. The were marked independantly by outside examiners. However, it was quite apparent which projects were made by "professionals" rather than the students yet they were still accepted as projects to be graded

nice_guy80

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The other big issue is that project work for certification purposes will mean parents doing the work or paying a grind tutor to do it.
.

parents have done that for years

evolving_doors

andrew wrote: »

Isn't it teachers who currently mark state exams? Isn't marking exams a fundamental part of a teacher's job, in the same way that exams are a fundamental part of a person's education (for better or for worse).

Consider this though... when I go to pick up 500 scripts this summer (about €7 per script before tax etc). They are all anonymous. Generally the supervising examiner knows the stats and how it should conform to 'the curve'..

Can you apply this same curve to 15 students!
No.. therefore no standardisation.

Is it the intention to have moderators for every teacher/subject? (sounds expensive!).

Is it the intention of this govt to publish school results? Yes (hello ghettoisation)

Is the intention of this govt. (or people of influence within the dept.) to pay by results?
Yes.

Is it the intention to save money? Yes (this has been shown in confidential govt. documentation.

Compare the 'phasing in' of the new english JC course with the extensive phasing in of project maths... ask any english teacher who went to the 1 day inservice and came away more confused.

Why are we following the failed system that the UK are turning away from.

The teaching profession is almost dead as it is. 40% of teacher's in ETB's on part time hours. Pension changed to career average (not much good if ten years is part time crumbs). Time for planning in school's is gone (Im starting my planning for the next few lessons tonight at 8 ... then its study for a course Im undertaking myself).

Cry me a river you say... but ask the question when is all this extra work meant to be done? School time! you must be kidding. Sure , nobody owes me a living but in terms of future teachers, theyd want to be crazy to consider it. 50% of teachers in the UK leave after the first ten years, despite reasonably good pay and security of tenure. The way things are now I know quite a few maths classes who are on their 3rd teacher this year.. how is that good? And this is only going to get worse with JCSA

But leave it to the all mighty pundits like Ed' Walshe and Eddie Hobbes who are the experts in... rabble rousing.

The all new JSCA is only part of a very bigger picture. Its aping the UK system, pure and simple. This is the way myself and the majority of my colleagues see it.

Eugene Norman

The teachers are right on this one. It's not broken don't fix it.

evolving_doors

Eugene Norman wrote: »

The teachers are right on this one. It's not broken don't fix it.

I agree, don't get me wrong either, I'm not against continuous assessment either (which is the line being thrown out). All teachers I know continuously assess their students class after class in whatever form works best for the students. It is a process of refining and borrowing ideas from fellow teachers to engage with students, but foisting stuff borrowed from theoretical studies of other countries on all teachers is wrong.

But continuous assessment for state certification then it can only end badly. Namely a box ticking exercise.

Rote learning has its place to a certain extent too btw.

The Rape of Lucretia

Someone, whose job it is to decide such things, has decided that it is OK for teachers to grade their own students. I dont know whether they are correct in that conclusion or not. But they are the ones charged with analysing and reaching a decision. Teachers unions are not. Their view on the matter is no more relevant than mine. If they had any professional integrity they would get on with implementing the education policy, and not be getting involved in decions that are not theirs to make.

FreudianSlippers

If teachers aren't intelligent and strong enough not to be bullied/biased into giving their students better marks then I already think we have a doomed generation.

It seems to work everywhere else in the world? What's wrong with our snivelling teachers? Or maybe this is just all rehearsal for the political aspirations that all teachers seem to have :rolleyes:

Eugene Norman

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

If teachers aren't intelligent and strong enough not to be bullied/biased into giving their students better marks then I already think we have a doomed generation.

It seems to work everywhere else in the world? What's wrong with our snivelling teachers? Or maybe this is just all rehearsal for the political aspirations that all teachers seem to have :rolleyes:

Most successful countries have exams as far as I can see.

evolving_doors

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

If teachers aren't intelligent and strong enough not to be bullied/biased into giving their students better marks then I already think we have a doomed generation.

It seems to work everywhere else in the world? What's wrong with our snivelling teachers? Or maybe this is just all rehearsal for the political aspirations that all teachers seem to have :rolleyes:

You're 'argument' position must be fairly weak if you have to resort to pathetic generalisations.
'snivelling teachers'!

'All teachers seem to have political aspirations!' ..
I think you may be referring to a few politicians who were a wet weekend in a school back in the 1970's.

Its also telling that you rolleyes at your own statement.

So thats that then?

FreudianSlippers

Gebgbegb wrote: »

You're 'argument' position must be fairly weak if you have to resort to pathetic generalisations.
'snivelling teachers'!

I have yet to hear a coherent argument from the teachers vis-a-vis the continual assessment model and the concessions put to them thereafter. The complaint seems to boil down to snivelling over not wanting to do it - like petulant children. Every single teacher I have heard on the radio, when presented with valid points resorts to snivelling rather than earnest rebuttals.

That's my view, but I don't have a horse in the game. :pac:

evolving_doors

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Someone, whose job it is to decide such things, has decided that it is OK for teachers to grade their own students. I dont know whether they are correct in that conclusion or not. But they are the ones charged with analysing and reaching a decision. Teachers unions are not. Their view on the matter is no more relevant than mine. If they had any professional integrity they would get on with implementing the education policy, and not be getting involved in decions that are not theirs to make.

True, it is someones job to decide (although I think you may be interested to note that the people who did decide (NCCA) were duly ignored by RQ... instead he went with his own scatty plan. ). We know the implication by RQ was rammed without consideration through because of the pathetic/minimal/confusing inservice given to the english teachers.

I would consider most of my english teacher colleagues to be fairly reserved and measured but when they returned from those inservices they were appalled at the inability of the instructors to answer basic questions. I aldo heard this from a member of university reps who were invited to the courses. The main reply was usually 'we dont know yet' and this was for a course due to start the following term!
Now compare that to the time and effort put into project maths... as much as I disagree with parts of it, everything was planned out, piloted for a few years and gradually phased in with continuous inservices. Whereas the english and presumably the new dumbed down science syllabus... nothing.

Just in relation to unions having an interest.. it has ALWAYS been a recognised core principal that teachers dont certify for state examinations... ALWAYS. (even the Travers doc. recognises this). For someone to suddenly decide that 'no I dont think I like that' and try and ram it through without any discussion was a challenge to say the least. Accepting this would be puttingg the profession in further mud.

Ask any uk teacher about grading and influence by management to 'adjust' or else there might be issues with their bonus (yes that old dirty word again dressed up as 'pay related performance').. ive spoken to quite a few.

Would you trust a politician to have control over the awarding of state contracts? No. there is a procurement and tendering process which removes the accusation of bias... (to an extent). '... but surely they are intelligent professionals too no?

Eugene Norman

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I have yet to hear a coherent argument from the teachers vis-a-vis the continual assessment model and the concessions put to them thereafter. The complaint seems to boil down to snivelling over not wanting to do it - like petulant children. Every single teacher I have heard on the radio, when presented with valid points resorts to snivelling rather than earnest rebuttals.

That's my view, but I don't have a horse in the game. :pac:

I am not a teacher and here is my view.

It works. Don't fix it.

Ireland is doing well in the PISA tests which specifically target 15 year olds. There doesn't seem to be much wrong.

Eugene Norman

One of the very few successful things the Irish State has done better than others is the unbiased education system. It was built to remove any hint of impropriety. Exams marked somewhere else. Names not on exams. Two IDs ( the leaving cert and CAO).

All designed to stop the system being gamed. This will re-introduce a gaming of the system.

FreudianSlippers

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I am not a teacher and here is my view.

It works. Don't fix it.

Ireland is doing well in the PISA tests which specifically target 15 year olds. There doesn't seem to be much wrong.

1) Wrote learning is not the correct type of learning for that age group;
2) It doesn't at all benefit children that will never go further than LC education in any way.

Of course there should be a "final examination" but rejecting continuous assessment out of hand seems ridiculous.

jank

A continual assessment which is part of the senior cycle exam and is marked by your own teacher is used here in Australia in conjunction of a state level exam marked independently. Of all the things I have heard teachers complain about over the past 5 years of living here, this is not one of them.

Don't they have similar in the best educational systems in the world, Finland South Korea?

Eugene Norman

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

1) Wrote learning is not the correct type of learning for that age group;
2) It doesn't at all benefit children that will never go further than LC education in any way.

Of course there should be a "final examination" but rejecting continuous assessment out of hand seems ridiculous.

I don't agree that is rote. Although rote is useful for some degrees like Law, which is a system of memorising, the leaving and junior cert at least in my day did ask for analysis, or maths or science. In any case the PISA tests are not tests of knowledge.

FreudianSlippers

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I don't agree that is rote. Although rote is useful for some degrees like Law, which is a system of memorising, the leaving and junior cert at least in my day did ask for analysis, or maths or science. In any case the PISA tests are not tests of knowledge.

I don't agree that law is rote (which my phone is finally figuring out I'm trying to write instead of "wrote " lol ) but I guess I'm at a disadvantage since I didn't do JC here as I was living abroad at the time

freedominacup

yellowlabrador wrote: »

maybe it's time to cancel that particular state examination? It's after all a left over from the days when children didn't stay in school till 18. We had a similar certificate in Belgium where I went to school. I was a bit of a rebel and signed mine with purple ink. my headmistress went bananas and said I'd never get a job and I was ruined for life. Can you guess how often I've needed to present it at an interview? Yearly exams, corrected by the teachers make more sense.I'd even get the teachers to compose the questions.

My eldest is in first year. At the moment he will be in the Algarve around the time the junior cert exam starts in 2017. We will have the various exams and assessments he does in the meantime to guage how he is doing. Pointless exam with no impact whatsoever on any part of a child's life other than the stress it induces in the run up to the exam. Voting with their feet by parents would see this cash cow for teachers and grind schools consigned to the dustbin of history where it surely belongs.

Paulzx

freedominacup wrote: »

My eldest is in first year. At the moment he will be in the Algarve around the time the junior cert exam starts in 2017. We will have the various exams and assessments he does in the meantime to guage how he is doing. Pointless exam with no impact whatsoever on any part of a child's life other than the stress it induces in the run up to the exam. Voting with their feet by parents would see this cash cow for teachers and grind schools consigned to the dustbin of history where it surely belongs.

Are you saying you are deliberatley planning to ensure your child misses a state examination in two years time because you consider it a pointless exam and it's more important to go on holiday in the Algarve?

Maybe I've picked you up wrong but that's what it's reading like to me

freedominacup

Paulzx wrote: »

Are you saying you are deliberatley planning to ensure your child misses a state examination in two years time because you consider it a pointless exam and it's more important to go on holiday in the Algarve?

Maybe I've picked you up wrong but that's what it's reading like to me

You got it in one. Tbh after our experience of primary school and the huge changes since we attended we were appalled to find more or less the same curriculum being taught in more or less the same manner in secondary school as it was thirty years ago. Every other area of life/work has changed out of all recognition in the interim but secondary school teachers who weren't even born when I started first year are still ploughing the same furrow as their long retired predecessors were three decades ago. How can this be regarded as being even remotely relevant to current needs? And therefore pointless.

Paulzx

freedominacup wrote: »

. How can this be regarded as being even remotely relevant to current needs? And therefore pointless.

As distinct from the usefullness of a month in the Algarve.

So what happens when your child goes to college and decides a given assignment is using your words "pointless." Using the example you've taught them they just don't bother doing it.

What happens when they enter the workforce and a project allocated to them by a manager is "pointless." Do they head to the Algarve to do something more usefull?

Whilst understanding your frustration with a syllabus that you don't like I hardly think you're doing your kids any favours by basically telling them that you don't have to bother doing anything that you don't agree with.

If only life was so simple

Iused2likebusts

freedominacup wrote: »

My eldest is in first year. At the moment he will be in the Algarve around the time the junior cert exam starts in 2017. We will have the various exams and assessments he does in the meantime to guage how he is doing. Pointless exam with no impact whatsoever on any part of a child's life other than the stress it induces in the run up to the exam. Voting with their feet by parents would see this cash cow for teachers and grind schools consigned to the dustbin of history where it surely belongs.

This type of attitude is why there is a lack of respect for teachers from students compared to when I went to school. This all feeds into discipline problems in school as we have a generation of parents that will defend their kids to the hilt and stop teenagers taking responsibility for their actions.

freedominacup

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

This type of attitude is why there is a lack of respect for teachers from students compared to when I went to school. This all feeds into discipline problems in school as we have a generation of parents that will defend their kids to the hilt and stop teenagers taking responsibility for their actions.

No it's not. None of my children have been in any trouble of any kind. All ptm a pleasure to attend. Children here well used to taking responsibility for their actions and can be trusted to do as instructed whether at home in the yard or in school. I'm well aware of their limitations but the general comments from other parents and teachers is that they are well mannered and polite. I've never found myself having to defend them tbh.

This kind of attitude is a reasoned response to unreasonable behaviour and attitudes from teachers and their unions. While it might display a lack of respect for teachers their current actions aren't deserving of much respect atm. Their only aim seems to be to impose their will on all other stakeholders regardless of how wrongheaded and outdated these aims are.

freedominacup

Paulzx wrote: »

As distinct from the usefullness of a month in the Algarve.

So what happens when your child goes to college and decides a given assignment is using your words "pointless." Using the example you've taught them they just don't bother doing it.

What happens when they enter the workforce and a project allocated to them by a manager is "pointless." Do they head to the Algarve to do something more usefull?

Whilst understanding your frustration with a syllabus that you don't like I hardly think you're doing your kids any favours by basically telling them that you don't have to bother doing anything that you don't agree with.

If only life was so simple

Who said anything about a month?

The difference between your putative college assignment and the junior cert is that there is no need to waste time on the junior cert whereas a college assignment esp with course credit involved has to be done regardless of their opinion. The junior cert counts for nothing the assignment could be the difference between a pass or merit.

With regards to the manager and the pointless project I'd hope that the work ethic we have tried to instill in them from a young age (they've all had chores from junior infants on, the older ones work with me from time to time) would kick in and they would just crack on and get the project finished in a timely and effective manner.

They are made on a daily basis to do things they don't agree with. At the moment unless the law says otherwise they don't have to do things I consider pointless.

robp

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

1) Wrote learning is not the correct type of learning for that age group;
2) It doesn't at all benefit children that will never go further than LC education in any way.

Of course there should be a "final examination" but rejecting continuous assessment out of hand seems ridiculous.

Rote learning is a specific issue and it is distinct from whether or not there should be an externally marked exam. If rote learning is a major issue it could be dealt within a externally marked terminal exam system.

Eugene Norman

freedominacup wrote: »

Who said anything about a month?

The difference between your putative college assignment and the junior cert is that there is no need to waste time on the junior cert whereas a college assignment esp with course credit involved has to be done regardless of their opinion. The junior cert counts for nothing the assignment could be the difference between a pass or merit.

With regards to the manager and the pointless project I'd hope that the work ethic we have tried to instill in them from a young age (they've all had chores from junior infants on, the older ones work with me from time to time) would kick in and they would just crack on and get the project finished in a timely and effective manner.

They are made on a daily basis to do things they don't agree with. At the moment unless the law says otherwise they don't have to do things I consider pointless.

Until it's abolished the JC has to be taken, I would have thought.

freedominacup

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Until it's abolished the JC has to be taken, I would have thought.

Or what?

evolving_doors

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

1) Wrote learning is not the correct type of learning for that age group;

Could you provide a source for that research!

Sure, an over reliance on rote learning is a bad thing (that's why it's called too much), and I'd agree that there is a lot on the plate of a 14/15 year old for the junior cert (10 odd subjects!)... but don;t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Any teacher who's come out of teacher training in the last 10 years will know that understanding is the aim of the game.

Just to quote from a letter to the Irish times RE: Rote Learning. Esp. as it's become the new 'dirty word' thrown out by politicians. (Skip to the underlined bit if you wish).

Sir, – I wasn’t surprised to see the usual criticism of the Leaving Cert as being too dependent on rote learning. This criticism is usually trotted out without any substantiation. Having taught for 20 years I don’t know any student who learns things without understanding them and then applying this knowledge in a variety of ways. It acts as a platform for expansion. As Daisy Christodoulou puts it her book Seven Myths about Education: “Saying all these negative things about rote learning [versus understanding] is very unhelpful. The two things are not in opposition. It’s not that we should spend time on conceptual understanding instead of spending it on learning times tables. It’s by spending time on times tables that you’ll develop the conceptual understanding.”
Christodoulou goes onto critique other favorites of our of our academic elite – projects and “active learning”. This she does with a mixture of common sense and extensive research which contradicts much of what the elite proposes. I would recommend that your readers to pick up a copy of her book before we throw out a relatively well-performing system and replace it with the latest fad. We need more minority voices – the consensus is often wrong – quite wrong. Yours, etc,
BARRY HAZEL,
Giltspur Wood,
Killarney Road,
Bray,
Co Wicklow

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

2) It doesn't at all benefit children that will never go further than LC education in any way.

Yes and I'd agree with you that the established Junior Cert. system is definitely not suitable for a certain cohort of students (and there are programs available for this cohort too!),,, does that mean you should change it to suit them?

How do the proposed changes suit those who don;t go on to further education anyway?

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Of course there should be a "final examination" but rejecting continuous assessment out of hand seems ridiculous.

I dont think ANY teacher who has ever walked this earth has rejected the concept of continuous assessment (a very basic example of continuous assessmnet is changing a seating plan!!, calling the role.. then at a higher level might be project work... these forms of continuous assessment take place every day). To be spinning out the line of 'rote learning' is preventing 'continuous assessment' is disingenuous to the work that teachers undertake every day..

Quite simply... It's continuous assessment for certification that is at the core of the issue. If continuous assessment becomes a box ticking exercise that every teacher has to do in a certain restrictive/moderated way then good-bye education, hello edutainment.

Here is a quote from the Guardian on the pushing of edutainment to 'get the kids attention' (Full article HERE)

"...planning exciting lessons is a time-consuming activity. Vast swathes of a teacher's time in an over-regulated education system is spent proving they are doing the job, rather than actually doing it. If Gilbert wants more exciting lessons, perhaps the focus should be less on top-down diktats, and more on reducing teacher workload, so that we have the time to engage, to excite and, yes, even to entertain."

I'd like to draw your attention to the underlined part. In the last 2 years this is what is coming from 'on high' through the Inspectorate/JMB/through to school managers. Every single meeting that we have now is essentially about paperwork and justifying everything we are doing. (It's Ironic the Croke Park times have been transferred to buzword meetings rather than extra teaching/planning time!!).

Time after time I hear the line ".. you know folks this is nothing new for you teachers, we've [sic!] been doing it all along anyway, it's just a way of formalising and reflecting on our work!". If we've been doing it all along then just leave us the hell alone to do it, or maybe give us time to do more of it.

Vast swathes of a teacher's time in an over-regulated education system is spent proving they are doing the job, rather than actually doing it.

This is what the new JC is leading too..

It's the UK system, pure and simple.

Eugene Norman

freedominacup wrote: »

Or what?

Or no leaving cert. but your kids will inherit the farm so no need of book learning.