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Passive vs regular house 2015

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  • 03-03-2015 11:49pm
    #1
    john price 31
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭


    Is building a passive house cost effective compared to a regular house in 2015 bearing in mind it cost 10-20% extra to build.


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    #2
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,467 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    20% is too high but its out there because builders dont want to do it.
    The answer IMO is yes, at 10 or 12%,, especially when energy gets to 300 usd a barrel in 2030 or so

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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    #3
    Handsandtools
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Handsandtools


    In long term it's worth, but if for sale as a development than maybe not.
    Passive building is the same building just more upgraded.


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    #4
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    john price 31 wrote: »
    Is building a passive house cost effective compared to a regular house in 2015 bearing in mind it cost 10-20% extra to build.

    Imho, no its not worth it.

    Take a 200k house built to cost 500 a year in heating. Even at 10% premium - 20k - if passive reduced your heating to zero it would take 40 years to recoup. In reality it will only reduce it by a much smaller % so the payback goes way out to. .....???

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #5
    Handsandtools
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Handsandtools


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Imho, no its not worth it.

    Take a 200k house built to cost 500 a year in heating. Even at 10% premium - 20k - if passive reduced your heating to zero it would take 40 years to recoup. In reality it will only reduce it by a much smaller % so the payback goes way out to. .....???
    It's not just about heating it's about all energy cost and comfort.


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    #6
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Handsandtools wrote: »
    It's not just about heating it's about all energy cost and comfort.

    I know that - I allowed energy cost to be zero - can't go lower. Lighting and plug ins would be equal.

    Comfort I take as equal - You'll want your ambient to be the same irrespective.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #7
    MicktheMan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,837 ✭✭✭MicktheMan


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Comfort I take as equal - You'll want your ambient to be the same irrespective.

    Equal comfort - I don't think so.

    2015 house airtightness at 7 m3/hr/m2
    Passive house at 0.6 ach

    This is not equal, not even close.


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    #8
    john price 31
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭john price 31


    It seems that until passive construction gets cheaper the savings in heat does not justify the 10% extra cost to build.


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    #9
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,467 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    john price 31 wrote: »
    It seems that until passive construction gets cheaper the savings in heat does not justify the 10% extra cost to build.
    As MtM has said
    It not just about the heat.
    its about comfort
    its about much higher quality of air in the house i.e. much reduced dust, VOC's and other particulates
    its about paying up front for the energy saving and knowing that when energy prices go up and your income goes down say on retirement knowing that you don't need 200 for a gas bill.

    When I was in the UK in the '70s with inflation at 22% there where many evenings where I just did not have the money for the elec heating meter in a dingy flat.
    This experience informed me re the psychology of being broke.

    In fact with interest rates as low as they are, now is the best time to do it.

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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    #10
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    As MtM has said
    It not just about the heat.
    its about comfort
    its about much higher quality of air in the house i.e. much reduced dust, VOC's and other particulates
    its about paying up front for the energy saving and knowing that when energy prices go up and your income goes down say on retirement knowing that you don't need 200 for a gas bill.

    When I was in the UK in the '70s with inflation at 22% there where many evenings where I just did not have the money for the elec heating meter in a dingy flat.
    This experience informed me re the psychology of being broke.

    In fact with interest rates as low as they are, now is the best time to do it.

    Lower fuel costs and better internal environment are the reward for building better.

    But no one can say FOR SURE if the investment will pay off or not.

    Fuel costs can only rise in the future ( over the mortgage life) but the recesion will end and with it it earned incomes will rise. So the affordability of fuel into the future can't be seen with accuracy.

    So what of the up front cost today for the extra over to get to passive. For arguments sake let's say 200k to build to regs 20k more to get to passiv. What about the affordablity of the extra 20k when (not if ) interest rates rise ?

    One can only ever take a stab at all of this and those with excell / financial skills ( not me ) can run "what if" models but that is all they can do.

    The future is always unknown.

    .


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    #11
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    MicktheMan wrote: »
    Equal comfort - I don't think so.

    2015 house airtightness at 7 m3/hr/m2
    Passive house at 0.6 ach

    This is not equal, not even close.

    We'll agree to disagree on that - You can build a house with 1.0 - 1.5m3/hr/m2 for that 20% under passive cost, and I would challenge anyone to be able to tell the difference between that and a passive house by walking in and living in it, comfort-wise.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #12
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    As MtM has said
    It not just about the heat.
    its about comfort
    its about much higher quality of air in the house i.e. much reduced dust, VOC's and other particulates
    its about paying up front for the energy saving and knowing that when energy prices go up and your income goes down say on retirement knowing that you don't need 200 for a gas bill.

    When I was in the UK in the '70s with inflation at 22% there where many evenings where I just did not have the money for the elec heating meter in a dingy flat.
    This experience informed me re the psychology of being broke.

    In fact with interest rates as low as they are, now is the best time to do it.

    You can address those concerns without incurring 20% extra in costs.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #13
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Can't we have a more global vision about the consequences of burning oil for heating our houses ?

    Few questions here :

    - What about the air pollution ? Asthma, breathing problems, etc... What is the cost of it now, and in the future ?
    - How many liters of oil needs to be burn to bring one litre of oil in my heating tank ? ( prospection - extraction - treatment - transport ...)
    - Not sure, but there is wars about oil , no ??? How many deads around the world ?
    - What about the cost of bringing oil in Ireland in the future in public money ? (for projects as the new Galway Harbour ? )
    - Never heard about climate change ? Consequences ? and their cost ?

    IMHO, the price of filling up a kerosene tank is a bit higher than the money you give to the delivery man, if you think of it...


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    #14
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Can't we have a more global vision about the consequences of burning oil for heating our houses ?

    Few questions here :

    - What about the air pollution ? Asthma, breathing problems, etc... What is the cost of it now, and in the future ?
    - How many liters of oil needs to be burn to bring one litre of oil in my heating tank ? ( prospection - extraction - treatment - transport ...)
    - Not sure, but there is wars about oil , no ??? How many deads around the world ?
    - What about the cost of bringing oil in Ireland in the future in public money ? (for projects as the new Galway Harbour ? )
    - Never heard about climate change ? Consequences ? and their cost ?

    IMHO, the price of filling up a kerosene tank is a bit higher than the money you give to the delivery man, if you think of it...
    I'm an advocate of the energy hierarchy, and dealing with building fabric first, followed by reducing energy consumption, followed by introducing renewables.

    I see the passive standard as a good thing and following the spirit of the building Regs instead of the minimum.
    Your bang on with the lack of discussion as regards climate change on this forum. The solution imho, as I write here on C&P forum, is to drive home the benifets of low carbon materials, solar orientated design, suitable planning considerations/ good design, avoiding structural issues, providing comfort and seeking the lowest energy consumption, and debating renewable solutions - is the way to go, in my humble opinion.

    But... We digress from the query put to us. What is the cost of 'reduced co2 in use', below building reg minimum design


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    #15
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Can't we have a more global vision about the consequences of burning oil for heating our houses ?

    Few questions here :

    - What about the air pollution ? Asthma, breathing problems, etc... What is the cost of it now, and in the future ?
    - How many liters of oil needs to be burn to bring one litre of oil in my heating tank ? ( prospection - extraction - treatment - transport ...)
    - Not sure, but there is wars about oil , no ??? How many deads around the world ?
    - What about the cost of bringing oil in Ireland in the future in public money ? (for projects as the new Galway Harbour ? )
    - Never heard about climate change ? Consequences ? and their cost ?

    IMHO, the price of filling up a kerosene tank is a bit higher than the money you give to the delivery man, if you think of it...

    We can, and all your latter points are valid.

    But with regard to the first one, you need to bear the biggest elephant in the room in mind: cost. A modern, well insulated, highly airtight house, even if fitted with an oil burner, will actually burn a tiny amount. In which case you need to assess the actual 'cost' of the little oil you may burn, along with the 'actual' cost of the alternatives; none are free, and most cost a premium. A premium in terms of cost of materials, cost of extraction, cost of delivery etc - all the same as the 'chain' of oil supply - but the oil has an advantage of a legacy low-cost delivery compared to many others.

    I'm not advocating oil mind - I'm advocating a proper apples vs apple comparison.

    And in the CO2 debate you do have to bear in mind our (Ireland's) miniscule influence in the light of other nations complete disregard for it.

    Naturally, the best solution is a building which needs little or none in the first place.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #16
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Can't we have a more global vision about the consequences of burning oil for heating our houses ?

    What about (great start to any post that) the fact that approx 1 in 5 Irish houses have no attic insulation. At all. why not dwell on resolving that for our society for who do you expect suffers this - high/middle income dwellers or low income dwellers. Or is this just a debate for those who can afford the luxury of a self build?


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    #17
    homewardbound11
    Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭homewardbound11


    I think the return shortens with larger house. Take a typical 3000 sq ft home. From thr late 90's. The heating costs can be as high as 4,000 per annum. My experience and I don't have a passive house but do comply with current regs( air tightness. Recovery . Solar) have heating bills of 500 per annum. Leaving out the fossil fuel time bomb and inflation , I would recover my cost in 20 years. With inflation of consumer prices and oil at 5percent. I would have a payback of 12 years
    I'd take that any day
    My house is 3000sq ft. Building costs 300k.


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    #18
    braftery
    Registered Users Posts: 242 ✭✭braftery


    I didnt realise houses only came in two flavours, regular or passive ;)


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    #19
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 9,003 ✭✭✭893bet


    braftery wrote: »
    I didnt realise houses only came in two flavours, regular or passive ;)

    They do these days. Building regs are very close to passive. So you either meet the regs or push on the extra to get passive. Not a lot in between.


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    #20
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    893bet wrote: »
    They do these days. Building regs are very close to passive. So you either meet the regs or push on the extra to get passive. Not a lot in between.

    Not a lot in between..........except the cost of the PH certification. I'd go as far as reasonably practical/possible, but short of the PH cert - the return isn't there given current regs.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #21
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Not a lot in between..........except the cost of the PH certification. I'd go as far as reasonably practical/possible, but short of the PH cert - the return isn't there given current regs.

    However - if one builds in the all too typical "it'll do / sure that's too dear" approach to compliance with regs then one is not making a valid comparison - which I am sure you agrree with.

    To clarify I do agree your point that a house built diligently to regs probably offers a better ROI than a Certied PH as one avoids duplication of certifications.


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    #22
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 9,003 ✭✭✭893bet


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Not a lot in between..........except the cost of the PH certification. I'd go as far as reasonably practical/possible, but short of the PH cert - the return isn't there given current regs.

    Current regs is a3 and passive is a1? Or is that too simplistic a view?


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    #23
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    893bet wrote: »
    Current regs is a3 and passive is a1? Or is that too simplistic a view?


    PH looks at energy consumption caused by fabric losses, solar gains & ventilation and sets a max energy consumption threshold

    TGD Part L & the associated BER set min standards of fabric, consider energy of heating, ventilation, but to get an 'A1' they rate renewables a little too highly ahead of reducing thermal bridging/ heat loss/air-leakage...


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    #24
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,650 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    893bet wrote: »
    Current regs is a3 and passive is a1? Or is that too simplistic a view?

    very simplistic, some builds can be passive and not even break into the A band.

    theres a whole ideological shift between what we consider building regulations and passive builds.

    Building regulations (DEAP) still awards larger buildings, bolt on technologies and makes many many assumptions, some very illogical.... in order for it to be a 'comparison tool'.

    Passive deals with the micro... it deals in specific and awards simplicity and economical use of space, less technologies, more attention to detail.

    i think the best way to compare the two would be to compare them in passive terms where a passive house must have an energy demand of 15 kw/m2/yr whereasa typical standard building reg 20111 compliant dwelling could be in the region of 40-60


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    #25
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    http://www.greenbuildingstore.co.uk/news--passivhaus-code-for-sustainable-homes.html

    A little out of date ( see link at the end of the page to SaP v phpp (sap is what BER is based on) - but the points made are still relevant


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    #26
    MOTM
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭MOTM


    [quote="sydthebeat;

    i think the best way to compare the two would be to compare them in passive terms where a passive house must have an energy demand of 15 kw/m2/yr whereasa typical standard building reg 20111 compliant dwelling could be in the region of 40-60[/quote]

    That 15 is for delivered space heat demand only. The part l requirement is PRIMARY energy and includes lighting , hot water, pumps and fans as well as space heating. So it is wrong to compare 15 passive to 40-60 for part L.


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