Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/3

Mitch Connor

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Herrera must be the best all rounder in the league between passing, tackling, intercepting, goal scoring I doubt any other player has been that well rounded this season

i love the lad - delighted he looks to be have made himself an important member of the first team.

He always looking to get the ball, to pass, to move - his ability and desire to move the ball forward is a very welcome change up for united. Gets stuck in too. Love the lad!

I do worry I overrate him because he simply isn't Cleverley, or Anderson - he is fecking competent at least!

Sand

sky88 wrote: »

Never really got the love for Hernandez from a lot of fans hes a good player but nothing special.

Several players have cult followings way out of proportion with anything they currently can offer the team, or anything they are ever likely to do: Hernandez is one, Nani is another, Kagawa was another, Welbecks departure was overly dramatic for a 6-goals-a-season striker and there was non-ironic calls for Vidic to be recalled from Italy earlier in the season.

Football is ruthless: Hernandez clearly has talent, but if Fergie saw him as backup, LvG was happy to let him go on loan, and Ancelotti only sees him as backup at best then three of the best managers in the modern era who worked with him in training all came to the same conclusion: good, but not good enough. Hernandez wont be a United player next year imo - for his own good he needs to switch to a level below United/Real and start getting games.

Call Me Jimmy

Strangely enough I think Herrera looks like someone who has worked harder than most on improving himself. Everytime a shot is layed up for him it looks like he's going through a drill with his body to line everything up correctly and then he strikes in a controlled manner. Like he's consciously doing the equation. All his goals have been like this.

His passing and movement is top quality, and as someone said earlier he desperately wants to get on the ball and get utd ticking

eclectichoney

Sand wrote: »

Several players have cult followings way out of proportion with anything they currently can offer the team, or anything they are ever likely to do: Hernandez is one, Nani is another, Kagawa was another, Welbecks departure was overly dramatic for a 6-goals-a-season striker and there was non-ironic calls for Vidic to be recalled from Italy earlier in the season.

Football is ruthless: Hernandez clearly has talent, but if Fergie saw him as backup, LvG was happy to let him go on loan, and Ancelotti only sees him as backup at best then three of the best managers in the modern era who worked with him in training all came to the same conclusion: good, but not good enough. Hernandez wont be a United player next year imo - for his own good he needs to switch to a level below United/Real and start getting games.

I think one of the other aspects with Chico was how likeable he was - always seemed a really positive, upbeat player who gave his all. A few late winners also won him a few fans I'd say. Not an exceptional player but very difficult not to like.

homerjay2005

If we have European football and Falcao leaves, our striking options are Rooney, RVP and Wilson ( who should be sent on loan)....I think we defo Have room for somebody like Hernandez in the squad especially given the extra 10 games or so that we could have.

Realistically, if we sell him, how much is he worth, €10m ?????Nani, Rafael and Evans are the only other players I could see us selling but I hope we keep all 3 especially Nani and Rafael, Evans may need to be kept due New home grown rules.

Your Airbag

So Alves confirmed he's leaving Barca at seasons end.

Worth it if gotten on the cheap.

bangkok

Sand wrote: »

Several players have cult followings way out of proportion with anything they currently can offer the team, or anything they are ever likely to do: Hernandez is one, Nani is another, Kagawa was another, Welbecks departure was overly dramatic for a 6-goals-a-season striker and there was non-ironic calls for Vidic to be recalled from Italy earlier in the season.

Football is ruthless: Hernandez clearly has talent, but if Fergie saw him as backup, LvG was happy to let him go on loan, and Ancelotti only sees him as backup at best then three of the best managers in the modern era who worked with him in training all came to the same conclusion: good, but not good enough. Hernandez wont be a United player next year imo - for his own good he needs to switch to a level below United/Real and start getting games.

Hernandez is liked as he is a great striker, 20 goals in his debut season in England.

Nani is liked because on his day is the best winger in England and should have won PFA player of the year 4 years ago I think it was

Welbeck was man utd through and through, there since he was a kid. Lots of fans sad to see him go and I was one of those

bangkok

Your Airbag wrote: »

So Alves confirmed he's leaving Barca at seasons end.

Worth it if gotten on the cheap.

Said he has been offered a 3 year contract somewhere else, that def wasn't us. We only offer players over 30 a one year contract. Sounds like a move to psg is on

Whatsisname

Shouldn't sign Dani Alves for his instagram post earlier alone.

Hococop

Whatsisname wrote: »

Shouldn't sign Dani Alves for his instagram post earlier alone.

What he say or put up?

Whatsisname

Hococop wrote: »

What he say or put up?

https://instagram.com/p/1RGh8yuHxg/?taken-by=danid2ois

The_Kew_Tour

Does he only squat his left leg or something?

duffman13

bangkok wrote: »

Hernandez is liked as he is a great striker, 20 goals in his debut season in England.

Nani is liked because on his day is the best winger in England and should have won PFA player of the year 4 years ago I think it was

Welbeck was man utd through and through, there since he was a kid. Lots of fans sad to see him go and I was one of those

Hernandez is not a great striker, he's a small wiley centre forward who has a decent eye for goal. Never is and never will be a great striker. He is a really likeable guy but that's it.

Nani your right on his day is a very good player but his day just doesn't come often enough.

Welbeck is another good guy and a fan but he isn't good enough and to be a starter and doesn't want to warm the bench. I was sad to see him go as well but he frustrated me so much. Always seemed to be on the cusp of greatness but never delivered

Al Capwned

Has there been anything further on the match-fixing allegations in Spain in which Herrera was mentioned?

Vic Vinegar

Al Capwned wrote: »

Has there been anything further on the match-fixing allegations in Spain in which Herrera was mentioned?

The trial was postponed till the season finishes.

Whatsisname

Knowing our luck with midfielders, Herrera will get life.

UnitedIrishman

bangkok wrote: »

Hernandez is liked as he is a great striker, 20 goals in his debut season in England.

Nani is liked because on his day is the best winger in England and should have won PFA player of the year 4 years ago I think it was

Welbeck was man utd through and through, there since he was a kid. Lots of fans sad to see him go and I was one of those

I never thought this day would come, but you've just pretty much summed up everything I was thinking there.

Hococop

Whatsisname wrote: »

Knowing our luck with midfielders, Herrera will get life.

Haven't read a lot about the incident but is there a good chance he could get a serious ban?

Pro. F

If Chicharito goes to a suitable club (ie a good one that plays decent football and makes him first choice) he will score a heap of goals, in any league. How this type of player is supposed to be not good enough for United is beyond me.

Ivica Olic, Diego Milito, Mario Gomez, Solomon Kalou, Mario Mandzukic and a past his best David Villa all started in CL finals over the last six years. Hernandez compares favourably to that group.

Sand

Pro. F wrote: »

If Chicharito goes to a suitable club (ie a good one that plays decent football and makes him first choice) he will score a heap of goals, in any league. How this type of player is supposed to be not good enough for United is beyond me.

He's a good player and I agree that if he drops a level and gets games he will score goals. The point is not that he is a bad player, its that he's an example of a player who gets a level of indiviual support at odds with his actual contribution to the team.

He'll be 27 years old this summer. If he really is a 30 goals a season striker for a top club competing for the European Cup then a lot of very capable football managers and their coaches all seem to have missed it. Back in 2012, Fergie went out and spent a lot of money on RVP despite having strikers like Hernandez already. When LVG arrived, he quickly came to the conclusion that Hernandez could go on loan. At Real Madrid, Hernandez has failed to impress Ancelotti or convince him he's a top line striker who must go into the team. None of these managers have the same belief in Hernandez that others seem to.

bucketybuck

Sand wrote: »

He'll be 27 years old this summer. If he really is a 30 goals a season striker for a top club competing for the European Cup then a lot of very capable football managers and their coaches all seem to have missed it. Back in 2012, Fergie went out and spent a lot of money on RVP despite having strikers like Hernandez already. When LVG arrived, he quickly came to the conclusion that Hernandez could go on loan. At Real Madrid, Hernandez has failed to impress Ancelotti or convince him he's a top line striker who must go into the team. None of these managers have the same belief in Hernandez that others seem to.

These points are rather spurious. Ancelotti for example did not take Hernandez on loan because he wanted to put him into the team as a top line striker, he has Benzema and Ronaldo for that. He took him as a quality 2nd choice backup and thats exactly what he has been. Its no shock to anybody at all that Hernandez did not displace Ronaldo or Benzema from the Madrid team, there is next to nothing he could actually do to achieve that.

And Fergie spending money on Van Persie does not mean Fergie missed anything about Hernandez, any more than it said anything about Wayne Rooney. Van Persie was one of the PL's most prolific ever strikers, he was available and so Fergie took him. That is not a reflection on Hernandez at all beyond the fact that he is not one of the PL's greatest ever strikers, which is not the question at hand.

bangkok

the whole hernandez point, if he drops a level etc etc, he is arguably playing at the biggest club in the world having come on loan from arguably the biggest club in the world. Manchester United and Real Madrid.

Alex Ferguson loved him, brilliant squad player that most teams in world football would love to have in their squad.

1st season 45 games 20 goals
2nd season 36 games 12 goals
3rd season 36 games 18 goals

If he played at Arsenal for example he would easily score 20 goals a season.

and who can forget this moment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MakH0gscMA0

little pea legend

Cantona's Collars

Just a heads up lads.

On Saturday May 23 there's a charity match featuring Manchester United Legends vs Tesco Legends @ Ferrycarrig Park,Wexford k/o 3pm. It's in aid of Temple Street.

David May,Clayton Blackmore,Keith Gilespie,Frank Stapleton,Arthur Albiston,Neil Webb,Lee Martin & Sammy McIlroy will make up the Legends team.

Tickets are €10 for the game or €20 for lunch with the players or €50 for a dinner dance with the players.
Tickets available from Tesco Gorey or PM me for a contact number.

v3ttel

Pro. F wrote: »

If Chicharito goes to a suitable club (ie a good one that plays decent football and makes him first choice) he will score a heap of goals, in any league. How this type of player is supposed to be not good enough for United is beyond me.

I definitely agree with this. If he finds a team that will have the faith to play him regularly, he will score a lot of goals. His movement is top level and he has a knack of getting the ball in somehow.

For a team like Valencia, maybe even Atletico, he would be a good fit. The main issue for him is his involvement in general play. He did improve it, but it's still not there yet. It's the thing that stops him from being first choice at an elite club. Even still, he is a fantastic sub or second choice.

Pro. F wrote: »

Ivica Olic, Diego Milito, Mario Gomez, Solomon Kalou, Mario Mandzukic and a past his best David Villa all started in CL finals over the last six years. Hernandez compares favourably to that group.

Diego Milito a strange example to use here. I think he starts head and shoulders above the others mentioned (not Villa in his prime). Power, reasonably pacy and has always been prolific. I found it really surprising that it took a bigger club 6 years to snap him up. He was fantastic in the year Inter won everything and was decisive in the final vs Bayern with 2 goals.

thelad95

I've heard it suggested that Hernandez could go to the MLS but that would be absolutely bonkers. The guy is still in his prime. I wonder would Moyes be tempted to take him to Sociedad?

Mitch Connor

thelad95 wrote: »

I've heard it suggested that Hernandez could go to the MLS but that would be absolutely bonkers. The guy is still in his prime. I wonder would Moyes be tempted to take him to Sociedad?

was floated earlier in the week but was shot down yesterday or teh day before - reports he will reject MLS to stay in Europe.

Maximus Alexander

bangkok wrote: »

the whole hernandez point, if he drops a level etc etc, he is arguably playing at the biggest club in the world having come on loan from arguably the biggest club in the world. Manchester United and Real Madrid.

Alex Ferguson loved him, brilliant squad player that most teams in world football would love to have in their squad.

1st season 45 games 20 goals
2nd season 36 games 12 goals
3rd season 36 games 18 goals

If he played at Arsenal for example he would easily score 20 goals a season.

and who can forget this moment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MakH0gscMA0

little pea legend

bangkok it's freaking me out that I've actually agreed with you at least twice this week. I feel like I must be losing my tenuous grip on sanity.

Cantona's Collars

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

If Chicharito goes to a suitable club (ie a good one that plays decent football and makes him first choice) he will score a heap of goals, in any league. How this type of player is supposed to be not good enough for United is beyond me.

Ivica Olic, Diego Milito, Mario Gomez, Solomon Kalou, Mario Mandzukic and a past his best David Villa all started in CL finals over the last six years. Hernandez compares favourably to that group.

I don't think the issue is his type not being good enough, his type is not fitting.

Falcao is of similar mold and struggled tremendously. Our game this season is not stretching teams or catching teams on the counter, and men running behind the opposition defence. It's not wingers hitting the byline and firing crosses into oncoming attackers.

There is more buildup play involved, its more tepid and patient and its more exploitive. Hernandez is wonderful around the six yard box, his movement is top notch, but it's not attributes that will be used to full effect.

So he would be consigned to the bench as with a one striker place, Rooney offers so much more, as does Van Persie. Their hold up play and link play is far superior. Chico has always struggled with back to goal, which is very much required of our striker now.

It's all irrelevant really, he never was and most likely never will be our number 1 striker, which really is what he wants/need. He can still carve out a fantastic final part of his career playing CL football and week in week out, it just won't be with us.

Fergie is part to blame here with him. As I always harp on about, he famously claimed how his new direction was to take the team in a new mould, being fast and frightening with pace and technical ability. It's why he became preferred to Berbatov( which made no sense until Ferguson outlined what he was doing) he then abandoned that plan, and there was a further requirement to strikers to play with backs to goal and link play, rather then go full steam to the goal latching onto crosses and the likes.

bangkok

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't think the issue is his type not being good enough, his type is not fitting.

Falcao is of similar mold and struggled tremendously. Our game this season is not stretching teams or catching teams on the counter, and men running behind the opposition defence. It's not wingers hitting the byline and firing crosses into oncoming attackers.

There is more buildup play involved, its more tepid and patient and its more exploitive. Hernandez is wonderful around the six yard box, his movement is top notch, but it's not attributes that will be used to full effect.

So he would be consigned to the bench as with a one striker place, Rooney offers so much more, as does Van Persie. Their hold up play and link play is far superior. Chico has always struggled with back to goal, which is very much required of our striker now.

It's all irrelevant really, he never was and most likely never will be our number 1 striker, which really is what he wants/need. He can still carve out a fantastic final part of his career playing CL football and week in week out, it just won't be with us.

Fergie is part to blame here with him. As I always harp on about, he famously claimed how his new direction was to take the team in a new mould, being fast and frightening with pace and technical ability. It's why he became preferred to Berbatov( which made no sense until Ferguson outlined what he was doing) he then abandoned that plan, and there was a further requirement to strikers to play with backs to goal and link play, rather then go full steam to the goal latching onto crosses and the likes.

so how was fergie to blame exactly? He seen he needed a better striker to play the role, went out and signed the best striker in the league and we went on to win the championship

Pro. F

Sand wrote: »

He's a good player and I agree that if he drops a level and gets games he will score goals. The point is not that he is a bad player, its that he's an example of a player who gets a level of indiviual support at odds with his actual contribution to the team.

He'll be 27 years old this summer. If he really is a 30 goals a season striker for a top club competing for the European Cup then a lot of very capable football managers and their coaches all seem to have missed it. Back in 2012, Fergie went out and spent a lot of money on RVP despite having strikers like Hernandez already. When LVG arrived, he quickly came to the conclusion that Hernandez could go on loan. At Real Madrid, Hernandez has failed to impress Ancelotti or convince him he's a top line striker who must go into the team. None of these managers have the same belief in Hernandez that others seem to.

Whether Hernandez is over/under-rated is not the point I took issue with. I think those are arguments that never give useful answers.

The point I took issue with is the idea that he's not good enough for United. If those players listed are good enough to win leagues and compete in and win CL finals then they are good enough for United. And Hernandez is as good as those players.

Fergie, throughout his time at United, always erred towards overstocking on strikers. He usually looked to have four quality strikers in the squad. Hernandez was a part of that, and given more time it's plausible that he would have again played an important role for Fergie.

LVG is eccentric when he's building teams. The way things have panned out this season should prove that his approach is more trial and error than master plan driven. Mata, Herrera and Fellaini were all on the outside at one point or another, but are now integral to the good form. Rooney was installed in midfield and it took months for Van Gaal to see his error. So LVG let Hernandez go, just another poor choice when building the team as far as I'm concerned.

Madrid are obviously not above bringing in quality players and then not giving them a proper chance. Hernandez was brought in as back-up, Ancelotti had a system that was working and getting the best out of Ronaldo already. It makes perfect sense that he wouldn't try to wedge a completely different striker into the team.

v3ttel wrote: »

Diego Milito a strange example to use here. I think he starts head and shoulders above the others mentioned (not Villa in his prime). Power, reasonably pacy and has always been prolific. I found it really surprising that it took a bigger club 6 years to snap him up. He was fantastic in the year Inter won everything and was decisive in the final vs Bayern with 2 goals.

Imo, given similar opportunities to Milito, Hernandez would likely equal or better his goal scoring record. It's all about opportunities, Milito had to wait until he was 30 for his big break. It just shows the imperfect nature of how players are chosen to play for big teams and the folly of using it to judge their quality.

Mitch Connor

If hernandez was happy with a sub role at United next season, or starting if we go two up top on occassion, he'd be a very good asset to the team. He is a very good finisher. The problem is simply he wants to be more than a squad player - he wants to play regularly. I don't think he is good enough to start for United (without a change in approach from United), but he is certainly good enough to be an important squad player.

ronjo

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Herrera must be the best all rounder in the league between passing, tackling, intercepting, goal scoring I doubt any other player has been that well rounded this season

Not looking to start an argument but how about Aaron Ramsey?

Will I Amnt

Just watching Premier League Years 12/13 on Sky now, feels like so long ago that RvP was ripping everyone to bits. Worth the transfer fee for that season alone.

Will I Amnt

ronjo wrote: »

Not looking to start an argument but how about Aaron Ramsey?

This season?

Mitch Connor

ronjo wrote: »

Not looking to start an argument but how about Aaron Ramsey?

ON his day, yeah, probably. My impression of him from earlier in the season was that he had started to believe his own hype and wasn't playing his best becasue he was trying to be 'the man', if you get me. Similar to how Nicky Butt was great prior to the 2002 WC then became crap after - felt like he had let the praise go to his head and started trying to be a combination of Roy Keane and David Beckham, rather than being the very good player he was in his own right/style.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't think the issue is his type not being good enough, his type is not fitting.

Falcao is of similar mold and struggled tremendously. Our game this season is not stretching teams or catching teams on the counter, and men running behind the opposition defence. It's not wingers hitting the byline and firing crosses into oncoming attackers.

There is more buildup play involved, its more tepid and patient and its more exploitive. Hernandez is wonderful around the six yard box, his movement is top notch, but it's not attributes that will be used to full effect.

So he would be consigned to the bench as with a one striker place, Rooney offers so much more, as does Van Persie. Their hold up play and link play is far superior. Chico has always struggled with back to goal, which is very much required of our striker now.

It's all irrelevant really, he never was and most likely never will be our number 1 striker, which really is what he wants/need. He can still carve out a fantastic final part of his career playing CL football and week in week out, it just won't be with us.

Van Persie is also weak at the hold-up and link up play that you are talking about. So if what you are saying is true, then LVG built a system that didn't suit three of the five strikers he started the season with (Rooney and Welbeck being the exceptions).

TheDoc wrote: »

Fergie is part to blame here with him. As I always harp on about, he famously claimed how his new direction was to take the team in a new mould, being fast and frightening with pace and technical ability. It's why he became preferred to Berbatov( which made no sense until Ferguson outlined what he was doing) he then abandoned that plan, and there was a further requirement to strikers to play with backs to goal and link play, rather then go full steam to the goal latching onto crosses and the likes.

You are paying far too much attention to what Fergie said imo. He always bought loads of strikers and won loads of leagues, he also talked a lot of gash whenever he felt like it. I don't think trying to discern his tactical approach from things he was saying to the press was ever going to work.

ronjo

Will I Amnt wrote: »

This season?

Fair point in that he hasnt been as effective as last but he does have 8 goals in 25 starts playing from central midfield.
How does that match up with Herrera?

Will I Amnt

ronjo wrote: »

Fair point in that he hasnt been as effective as last but he does have 8 goals in 25 starts playing from central midfield.
How does that match up with Herrera?

He has 4 or 5, not sure but he hasn't started near as many games. The point being made was about the all round game anyway.
"Get Ramsey off" was the Arsenal match thread mantra for a long time this season.
Great player but he's been well below his best.

Mitch Connor

ronjo wrote: »

Fair point in that he hasnt been as effective as last but he does have 8 goals in 25 starts playing from central midfield.
How does that match up with Herrera?

Herrera has 7 goals from 15 starts.

ronjo

Will I Amnt wrote: »

He has 4 or 5, not sure but he hasn't started near as many games. The point being made was about the all round game anyway.
"Get Ramsey off" was the Arsenal match thread mantra for a long time this season.
Great player but he's been well below his best.

Yes sure.... I was just thinking what player at Arsenal fit that description best and Ramsey came to mind.
I am sure you could find "Get XXX off" on almost every player for every team at some stage in fairness. He has a bit of form now since back from injury.

v3ttel

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Herrera must be the best all rounder in the league between passing, tackling, intercepting, goal scoring I doubt any other player has been that well rounded this season

If I had to pick an all-rounder in the league, it would be Cesc Fabregas for me. Absolute mountain of assists, a few goals, capable of playing deeper than a CAM role as he is decent defensively. Not a terribly prolific season, but he is more than capable - as he has proven over the years.

I love Herrera as a player, but to call him the all-rounder of the season on the back of a few very good performances, when he was completely frozen out for a long stretch (rightly or wrongly), is a bit over the top.

Having said that, isn't it great to read positive stuff about the team and our players, rather than the consistent doom mongering stuff.

Liam O

Fabregas was only good for the first half of this season, been his worst overall in the PL since his early Arsenal days imo.

v3ttel

Liam O wrote: »

Fabregas was only good for the first half of this season, been his worst overall in the PL since his early Arsenal days imo.

He has 17 assists so far. He leads the league in that - by a country mile. Also, with 8 games to go - is on track to beat his previous best in any season in the PL. Anyway, nevermind the stats - actually watching the games, he was absolutely outstanding and one of the main reasons why Chelsea have a comfortable gap built up.

His form has dipped in the second half of the season, as every player has a dip now and then - they're human. Sorry, but to say it's his worst PL season is just wrong IMHO. He's been incredibly influential and has given Hazard the platform to produce his best form.

Anyway, I will leave it at that. People haven't come here to read about Chelsea.

Spazdarn

Myopic view on Fabregas, he's class, cannot believe a player at 27, in his prime with his skillset and ability went for only 30 million.

Manutd_4life

Spazdarn wrote: »

Myopic view on Fabregas, he's class, cannot believe a player at 27, in his prime with his skillset and ability went for only 30 million.

Yeah i thought we missed out on a banger of a deal last summer but i think it is fair to say that herrera has done justice and proved what a quality player he is and will prove to be for hopefully the coming seasons.

Nalz

When I see mata, Carrick and Herrera on the team sheet it makes me smile

Please god Di Maria comes into some form

Those 4 with Young/Fellaini and Rooney/ Fit RVP up top =

Spazdarn

I know it's cruel after what he's done for us in such a short space of time, but I don't really want or see RVP being top dog from here on in. Rooney is more mobile, and more involved.

I do hope that RVP's poor form was in line with the team in general, and our latest form gives him a lift too

NoviGlitzko

Although I agree Rooney does more with the ball and certainly deserves his start, I think it's natural RVP would play better & be rewarded more with the confidence we play at the moment. He needs a goal. Was watching PL highlights from over the years and was reminded of how lethal he is - would be great to see him back on top form with the current squad.

Spazdarn

Can't really afford to take Rooney out though, so any appearances RVP gets will likely be sub appearances for the meantime.