Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/3

Cantona's Collars

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Desire and skill from our two little Spaniards.

Your Airbag

zerks wrote: »

To think these were our most maligned players last season,amazing what a bit of belief and confidence can do.

Dat loop

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

There has been a lot of talk about Herrera not being picked due to not "performing" in training. I think I remember Herrera himself even saying same.

If you were to accept that there was an issue with him training - whether it be not working hard enough, not showing a willingness to follow instruction etc - I don't think you can really give out about the manager making a stand that "until you start doing XYZ I'm not going to pick you".

A stance like that I would argue would be defensible by a manager even if it costs points, the fact that the team's record was still excellent in that time makes it even more correct.

I think it's orders of magnitude more likely that this is the sort of thing that was going on behind the scenes rather than van Gaal not being clever enough at soccer to see Herrera would be better in midfield than Rooney.

That is just an appeal to authority argument. If we agree for the sake of argument, and just trust that LVG was privy to something in training that justified his decision, there's still the issue that he had a full preseason to look at his squad and a lot of money to spend and yet he still ended up having to play Rooney in midfield because he didn't like how his central midfielders played/trained. And even beyond that there's the fact that he tried to play narrow formations with two CFs who weren't mobile enough for it and full-backs/wing-backs who weren't good enough at crossing.

Also, I think it is an exaggeration to describe the season record until the last month as excellent - "just acceptable" would be a more accurate description.

All in all, I would say that praising Van Gaal for how he has gone about building this team is wrong, and it's being done because of his previous record rather than because of the evidence of what we've seen him doing at this club.

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

when united had possession first half milner went straight to man mark him, was even pointed out in the commentary

Even the commentary pointed it out? I didn't realise. It's not like they ever get anything wrong is it.

Milner left Carrick to close down other players all through the game. That is not man-marking.

Will I Amnt

Pro. F wrote: »

That is just an appeal to authority argument. If we agree for the sake of argument, and just trust that LVG was privy to something in training that justified his decision, there's still the issue that he had a full preseason to look at his squad and a lot of money to spend and yet he still ended up having to play Rooney in midfield because he didn't like how his central midfielders played/trained. And even beyond that there's the fact that he tried to play narrow formations with two CFs who weren't mobile enough for it and full-backs/wing-backs who weren't good enough at crossing.

Also, I think it is an exaggeration to describe the season record until the last month as excellent - "just acceptable" would be a more accurate description.

All in all, I would say that praising Van Gaal for how he has gone about building this team is wrong, and it's being done because of his previous record rather than because of the evidence of what we've seen him doing at this club.

There was talk at the time that Herrera's timekeeping was a problem, turning up late for training on a regular basis.
I don't know how true that is but it's understandable to expect sanction for that. He wasn't even making the match day squad at times, there was definitely something behind it.

Mitch Connor

Will I Amnt wrote: »

There was talk at the time that Herrera's timekeeping was a problem, turning up late for training on a regular basis.
I don't know how true that is but it's understandable to expect sanction for that. He wasn't even making the match day squad at times, there was definitely something behind it.

From what I have read about Herrera, I would be surprised if he behaved in a manner that wasn't 100% professional with regards to training, diet or following instruction from coaches.

From what Herrera has said himself recently, it may be that he was too gung ho and lacked the positional discipline LVG wanted. Claims he was getting given out to by LVG for always going looking for the ball rather than holding his position and waiting to collect it at the right time.

Will I Amnt

Mitch Connor wrote: »

From what I have read about Herrera, I would be surprised if he behaved in a manner that wasn't 100% professional with regards to training, diet or following instruction from coaches.

From what Herrera has said himself recently, it may be that he was too gung ho and lacked the positional discipline LVG wanted. Claims he was getting given out to by LVG for always going looking for the ball rather than holding his position and waiting to collect it at the right time.

I'm pretty sure I read the timekeeping thing here, think it was linked from somewhere else, I actually thought it might have been you that mentioned it.

Maximus Alexander

Mitch Connor wrote: »

From what Herrera has said himself recently, it may be that he was too gung ho and lacked the positional discipline LVG wanted. Claims he was getting given out to by LVG for always going looking for the ball rather than holding his position and waiting to collect it at the right time.

Yeah Romain Vincelot kept doing this on me in FM, until I gave him instructions to dribble less and hold position. So basically, what I'm saying is, I have a lot of the same problems as LVG.

keane2097

Pro. F wrote: »

That is just an appeal to authority argument. If we agree for the sake of argument, and just trust that LVG was privy to something in training that justified his decision, there's still the issue that he had a full preseason to look at his squad and a lot of money to spend and yet he still ended up having to play Rooney in midfield because he didn't like how his central midfielders played/trained. And even beyond that there's the fact that he tried to play narrow formations with two CFs who weren't mobile enough for it and full-backs/wing-backs who weren't good enough at crossing.

Also, I think it is an exaggeration to describe the season record until the last month as excellent - "just acceptable" would be a more accurate description.

All in all, I would say that praising Van Gaal for how he has gone about building this team is wrong, and it's being done because of his previous record rather than because of the evidence of what we've seen him doing at this club.

The point of my post was to address your assertion that Van Gaal was too slow to see that Rooney playing in midfield needed changing.

I've posited an alternative scenario in which he could see plainly that Rooney in midfield needed changing but wasn't willing to put Herrera in for reasons that would be unclear to outsiders.

If you think he wasn't playing Herrera because he couldn't see that Rooney wasn't good in midfield that's grand, I just think it seems pretty unlikely.

Shanotheslayer

Thought yous might like this:

Average-Ro

This might have been posted already when it first came out; but I only stumbled across it a few minutes ago.

Beckham's last 5 minutes of professional football:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3yGCvIYt1k

Emotional stuff.

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

The point of my post was to address your assertion that Van Gaal was too slow to see that Rooney playing in midfield needed changing.

I've posited an alternative scenario in which he could see plainly that Rooney in midfield needed changing but wasn't willing to put Herrera in for reasons that would be unclear to outsiders.

If you think he wasn't playing Herrera because he couldn't see that Rooney wasn't good in midfield that's grand, I just think it seems pretty unlikely.

Fair enough. Based on his record with selecting midfielders in his previous teams I'd think it's quite likely that Van Gaal didn't see the problem with Rooney in midfield as readily as he should. He's very keen on defensive contribution and tactical discipline from his central midfielders and those are things that Herrera is weak at compared to Rooney.

Will I Amnt wrote: »

There was talk at the time that Herrera's timekeeping was a problem, turning up late for training on a regular basis.
I don't know how true that is but it's understandable to expect sanction for that. He wasn't even making the match day squad at times, there was definitely something behind it.

I remember that talk came up in the thread at some stage, but I don't remember ever seeing a credible source. There was also the match fixing trial idea which was more believable as a possible reason.

Lord TSC

Someone posted the table between the top 6 this season, and have to admit, was quite surprised at Chelsea's stats of only two wins and five draws. I have a feeling Jose would settle for a bore draw against us :P makes me more confident though....

v3ttel

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Nani REALLY isn't an LVG player though. Unless he has become less braindead.

He can be a wonderful footballer at times, but his decision making is erratic. Remember reading in Red Issue or UWS that Rene said Nani can be fantastic, but that he doesn't know why he does pretty much anything on the pitch, good or bad. So it has proven difficult to teach him to do the right things. He is an instinctive player, completely.

Based on how LVG has set the team out, and his desire that the players can fulfil their roles, stick to their positions and perform their tasks exactly as requested - I just don't see how Nani can win his trust.

To play devil's advocate, would you have said Robben was an LVG type of player?

Maybe LVG uses the type of clear highly structured approach that he needs. He knows if he doesn't do X, Y and Z when on the pitch, he will not play. There is no "why am I not playing", or "the manager doesn't believe in me", "but I played well last game", it's "I didn't do X, Y and Z, so here I am". I always think that players with lots of natural flair but who lack consistency can be helped by giving them a clear framework.

More likely though, that Nani will leave and Depay will be signed.

Trond

Im just glad he's finally sticking to his preferred 433.

The 352 formation barely suited any of our defenders. I understand why he used it initially though.

Id say McNair will go loan next season. Personally Id sell Blackett.

SlickRic

Lord TSC wrote: »

Someone posted the table between the top 6 this season, and have to admit, was quite surprised at Chelsea's stats of only two wins and five draws. I have a feeling Jose would settle for a bore draw against us :P makes me more confident though....

José would've happily taken a draw yesterday. he'll be delirious with a point against Utd.

Mitch Connor

v3ttel wrote: »

To play devil's advocate, would you have said Robben was an LVG type of player?

Maybe LVG uses the type of clear highly structured approach that he needs. He knows if he doesn't do X, Y and Z when on the pitch, he will not play. There is no "why am I not playing", or "the manager doesn't believe in me", "but I played well last game", it's "I didn't do X, Y and Z, so here I am". I always think that players with lots of natural flair but who lack consistency can be helped by giving them a clear framework.

More likely though, that Nani will leave and Depay will be signed.

Robben has been a top performer for Bayern and Holland for years - when he plays, he will generally be dangerous and a threat. Nani can be dangerous and a threat, or he can lump every ball he gets into the stand. Robben has shown he can conform to a tactical defensive instruction for LVG for Holland and at Bayern when it is needed. Nani does do a defensive shift, but he can also be braindead defensively.

In terms of football smarts and decision making, Robben is streets ahead of Nani. Nani's biggest problem is the mental side of the game, which is why I don't think LVG will be interested in him.

RobertKK

Jose will again be very complimentary towards United, convinced he wants to manage United at some stage.

bangkok

Lord TSC wrote: »

Someone posted the table between the top 6 this season, and have to admit, was quite surprised at Chelsea's stats of only two wins and five draws. I have a feeling Jose would settle for a bore draw against us :P makes me more confident though....

that's mourinho all over though, get a draw against your main rivals and win all other games. he would happily take a draw now if it was offered to him. the way we are playing now and having taken 18 points in our last 6 games, this game is like a bonus. No pressure really on us or Chelsea so can see us sneaking a win or a bore 1-1 draw

Lukker-

RobertKK wrote: »

Jose will again be very complimentary towards United, convinced he wants to manage United at some stage.

Or it could just be he is friends with and has a mutual respect with Van Gaal?

RobertKK

Lukker- wrote: »

Or it could just be he is friends with and has a mutual respect with Van Gaal?

He has been the same before Van Gaal was ever manager.

Lukker-

RobertKK wrote: »

He has been the same before Van Gaal was ever manager.

With his close friend Alex Ferguson.

RobertKK

Lukker- wrote: »

With his close friend Alex Ferguson.

Also David Moyes.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/sep/26/jose-mourinho-cried-manchester-united

"Mourinho ... thought that Ferguson was, besides his ally, also his friend and godfather. He was convinced that they were tied by a relationship of genuine trust. He thought that his fabulous collection of titles constituted an 'endorsement' unreachable to any other contenders. When he knew that Ferguson had chosen Moyes, the Everton coach, he was struck by a terrible disbelief. Moyes hadn't won absolutely anything!"
Torres said that Mourinho was on the phone constantly to his sports agency Gestifute. "Mourinho wouldn't stop calling them. His 'interlocutors' had heard him sob loudly and they were spreading the word. The most feared man in the company was crushed."

MisterAnarchy

Hococop wrote: »

The job put years on him, it was too much pressure for him, delighted he is doing well with sociodad

His heavily criticised buys Fellaini,Herrera and Mata have all come good for the team in the last few months .

Of the starting 11 yesterday ,only one (Blind) was a new addition this season.
Technically Herrera joined after Moyes left but he oversaw the transfer and initiated it .

Its amazing how form can change.

Lukker-

RobertKK wrote: »

Also David Moyes.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/sep/26/jose-mourinho-cried-manchester-united

That's an extract from Diego Torres book on Mourinho which is mostly opinion based fiction. Good read if you believe stories publications like MARCA run with as fact.

bangkok

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

His heavily criticised buys Fellaini,Herrera and Mata have all come good for the team in the last few months .

Of the starting 11 yesterday ,only one (Blind) was a new addition this season.
Technically Herrera joined after Moyes left but he oversaw the transfer and initiated it .

Its amazing how form can change.

Form is temporary, class is permanent

Maximus Alexander

bangkok wrote: »

Form is temporary, class is permanent

Fellaini is a good example of this. He was in poor from last season, but he was always class and now it's showing.

Julez

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Fellaini is a good example of this. He was in poor from last season, but he was always class and now it's showing.

And to think a section of our fans were ironicaly cheering him during pre season, was delighted when he scored at the end of that game.

bangkok

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Fellaini is a good example of this. He was in poor from last season, but he was always class and now it's showing.

fellaini is a good player in great form but class is not a word I would use to describe him in fairness

TheDoc

Absolutely rammed in work today

But got to saw the responses from people clarifying offside. Well **** me...didn't know that, always thought it was planted legs. I've never heard that mentioned in commentary, or post match analyzing a goal, ever. How many times to pundits and the likes look at the freeze frame with the line across the ground and talk about feet, never once heard mention of head.

Sure Ronaldo is the only person I can remember running where his head wasn't a bit ahead of his body/feet(runs real straight). That can't be how it's implemented, or instead of a line on the gross they'd put up like a holographic wall across the line to show if the head , is ahead of the line.

Guaranteed linesmen are only looking at legs, bodies.

Rayne Wooney

If we beat Chelsea Saturday I have a feeling Arsenal will too the following week or at least get a draw. Have heard from Chelsea fans they'd be happy with two draws

We did okay in the game at OT if I remember correctly and we had a few injuries and Wilson and Januzaj started too I think.

Maximus Alexander

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

If we beat Chelsea Saturday I have a feeling Arsenal will too the following week or at least get a draw. Have heard from Chelsea fans they'd be happy with two draws

We did okay in the game at OT if I remember correctly and we had a few injuries and Wilson and Januzaj started too I think.

If United beat them and Arsenal get the draw... Game On!

Headshot

Jose will have 11 men behind the ball and hope to get us on the counter

Rayne Wooney

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

If United beat them and Arsenal get the draw... Game On!

It is a very unlikely scenario that Chelsea will lose-draw and we win both of our games, but if it were to happen Chelsea would still be 3 ahead with an easy enough game in hand

Would increase the pressure big time and make things interesting though

Maximus Alexander

Headshot wrote: »

Jose will have 11 men behind the ball and hope to get us on the counter

If the game against QPR is representative of how they'll play in their last 7 games, anything is possible. They were muck.

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It is a very unlikely scenario that Chelsea will lose-draw and we win both of our games, but if it were to happen Chelsea would still be 3 ahead with an easy enough game in hand

Oh I agree, but on the other hand: Football, bloody hell!

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

Absolutely rammed in work today

But got to saw the responses from people clarifying offside. Well **** me...didn't know that, always thought it was planted legs. I've never heard that mentioned in commentary, or post match analyzing a goal, ever. How many times to pundits and the likes look at the freeze frame with the line across the ground and talk about feet, never once heard mention of head.

Sure Ronaldo is the only person I can remember running where his head wasn't a bit ahead of his body/feet(runs real straight). That can't be how it's implemented, or instead of a line on the gross they'd put up like a holographic wall across the line to show if the head , is ahead of the line.

Guaranteed linesmen are only looking at legs, bodies.

The TV stations don't put a line on the pitch, they haven't done for years. They use an equally useless shaded-in thing that is supposed to be 3D. A true 3D wall like you are talking about wouldn't be possible without a lot of extra cameras all moving in tandem and some new technology in the studios.

I'm pretty sure it's guaranteed that the linesmen are going by legs, bodies and heads, like it says in the laws. It would be fairly amazing if they weren't, considering everybody else in the world of football is.

keane2097

Just did the match predictor thing there and even having Chelsea lose to United, Arsenal and Liverpool and with United winning all remaining games they ended up 3pts and a lot of goals behind Chelsea. It's in the history books I reckon.

'Evening lads. I'm still buzzing from that result. The hurt from my sink escapade has subsided, and the girlfriend didn't go mad and make me feel like a 5 year old when I told her how the dishwasher ended up broken. She laughed, but did recommend that I get it fixed before buying any new toys for myself. Fair enough.

Still a few things giving me a chuckle from yesterday. That Michael Carrick has left the building moment and LVG's biggest positive from the victory being that it grants him an opportunity to visit Wing's Chinese restaurant. Those I already mentioned last night, but here's another thing. If someone had have told me a year ago that next time at home we'd thump City 4-2 with a team that starred Ashley Young and Marouane Fellaini in favour of Angel Di Maria and Radamel Falcao, who wouldn't be subbed on until 80+ minutes when United were 4-1 up, I'd have to ask what alternate reality our world had flipped into. Of course those things only amuse me on a superficial level, but the reality is that Carrick could be injured, Di Maria isn't going to be happy on the bench, Falcao not working out at United makes me sad and Louis should be more careful with his intake of Chinese food!

Seriously, what's going to happen with Di Maria? He needs the minutes on the pitch to sharpen his game, as well as the fact that he's a £100m player considering the fee and salary over the life of his contract. More importantly than the player though, United need the points on the table and the best way to achieve this IMO is to stick as closely as possible to the starting 11 who have been so effective as a unit lately. Maybe once we get beyond the Chelsea game and depending on the result of that, then might be the time for Di Maria to be rotated in for a few games to give Young or Mata a rest. I honestly don't know, that's why I opened this paragraph with the question. Di Maria has provided vital assists despite not having an ideal first season and is capable of so much more, but he needs the minutes to refine his performances and United are at the stage of the season where they can't really afford to take these chances with the 11.

Another thing that concerns me is what consequences to the team sheet will we see with a returning RVP? Carrick, Herrera, Fellaini, Mata, Young, Rooney, all vital to the effectiveness of the team's current attacking game. I really hope LVG doesn't get out the shoehorn again or peg Rooney back into CM at the expense of one of the others just so he can play RVP as lone striker. I still think RVP has a future at the club and value him as a player, but like Angel Di Maria, points on the table are currently more important than disrupting the successful attack force.

Rayne Wooney

Jose will go into the game with a must not lose mentality before anything else, momentum counts for a lot and losing to United could cause a knock on effect and then Arsenal at the Emirates will be well up for getting themselves in the running, whereas we can afford to go for the win and see what happens.

Hopefully it will be a great game

paulbok

keane2097 wrote: »

Just did the match predictor thing there and even having Chelsea lose to United, Arsenal and Liverpool and with United winning all remaining games they ended up 3pts and a lot of goals behind Chelsea. It's in the history books I reckon.

I have to agree, that game in had is a big safety net for them, as unlikely as it would be for them to lose those 3 game, they are unlikely to lose/draw any others.
However, isn't it great* to be even talking about having a chance this season? *(with regards to the last 18 months, not United in general, who are now expected to push on again next season)
Progress has most certainly been made, the last few games have seen the team/philosophy fall into place, players are back in form and the confidence has returned. I can see us getting a win against Chelsea, although we haven't won there since 2002 (?).

3rd place is now the minimum expectation, and second is very achievable.
If there were 10 games left for everyone, I think we'd have a chance, but Chelseas gap is just that bit too much for our 6 games left.

sky88

i think jose will play like he did at old trafforrd last year but with hazard up top this time. hell go out to not lose this game

If Chelsea drop the amount of points that it would take for them to lose the title, that would be a massive failure, the kind that might see Mourinho gone again I would argue. Not going to happen at this stage of the season, and they've only lost twice so far.

United finishing this season in 2nd/3rd within 5 points of the winners Chelsea, I would class that as best case scenario now and more than acceptable given our season up until about 6 weeks ago.

Johner

paulbok wrote: »

I can see us getting a win against Chelsea, although we haven't won there since 2002 (?).

United won a few seasons back when Torres and Ivanovic got sent off. Overall though United don't have a great record at Stamford Bridge. They are coming into this game with huge confidence though, Chelsea should up their game against a top team at home and we'll need to if we want anything out of the game.

sky88 wrote: »

i think jose will play like he did at old trafforrd last year but with hazard up top this time. hell go out to not lose this game

Remy should be fit.

irishfeen

Chelsea will go ULTRA defensive next Saturday - have no doubt about that... the very last thing he would want to see is United beating them 2 or 3 nil and giving them something to worry about going into the Arsenal game. I think he will play for the draw and if they can catch us on the counter with a sucker punch then all the better.. They will play us like they did Liverpool last year.

Odds on draw for me or a 1-0 Chelsea win, Chelsea stiffing the life out of our play - there is no better team/manager in Europe for doing it.

Mr.Crinklewood

Stumpy ding ding

MagicIRL

Rayne Wooney

Dancing in the moonlight...

Unearthly

They are about to review the match on Monday night football. Usually good craic seeing the demolition analysed in detail

Fudge You

Unearthly wrote: »

They are about to review the match on Monday night football. Usually good craic seeing the demolition analysed in detail

Just talking about his mates.

beno619

I don't really understand why people fear RVP returning to fitness means LVG will shoehorn him in. So far LVG hasn't changed the winning formula and Rooney doesn't get dropped.

I think were actually going out of our way to find things to worry about, let's just enjoy the fantastic end to the season.

I'm not too worried about Di Maria he'll be back in the side and firing on all cylinder's next season.