Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/3

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

that was my original post, posted as a joke, going back to an argument with another poster that said he never heard the term "street footballer" and I said at the time it was a common football term

Now you are misrepresenting the other side of the argument. That is actually another logical fallacy, the straw man argument.

There were a lot of posters (not one) who pointed out to you that "street footballer" is a meaningless term. They presented the evidence that it is a meaningless term by showing that there is no working definition of what a street footballer is. Instead of admitting that it is a meaningless term you fell back brandishing quotes from pundits that use the term as if it proves your point. You're still at it today.

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

Now you are misrepresenting the other side of the argument. That is actually another logical fallacy, the straw man argument.

There were a lot of posters (not one) who pointed out to you that "street footballer" is a meaningless term. They presented the evidence that it is a meaningless term by showing that there is no working definition of what a street footballer is. Instead of admitting that it is a meaningless term you fell back brandishing quotes from pundits that use the term as if it proves your point. You're still at it today.

and yet you were sitting at home last night with your bag of popcorn and the minute Gary Neville mentioned it I popped into your head..... success

Mitch Connor

Pro. F wrote: »

I never indicated that I thought using Rooney's opinions on Fellaini was fine. I never entered that discussion.

If you took part in a debate on physics and then, instead of presenting evidence and using logic to form your argument, you held up Hawkins's opinion as fact you would also be arguing from authority. It is a logical fallacy no matter who the authority is.

how about you argue your point, even though others disagree, you make your case, even though others disagree and then you use the same opinion held by someone in high esteem within that field to back up your opinion? I honeslty don't see what the issue with that is. Yes, Neville can be wrong at times, he can also be right.

I have argued with you many times regarding Carrick - his abilities and his effect, whether Cleverley is a better choice for United's midfield than he is, I don't see why using the quotable opinions of people like Scholes, Xavi, Wenger, Fergie, Van Gaal is a logical falacy.

If people were saying Fellaini is crap because XXX says so, or Carrick is great because XXX says so then yeah, there is an issue. But that isn't what people are doing. They are saying XXX is XXX for all these different reasons, oh and here are some people well respected in the game citing a similar opinion.

I refuse to accept that citing anothers opinion is always a bad move. Ignoring others opinion would be.

Also, saying that someone is using an appeal to authority any time they use someone elses opinion, is incorrect imo. Not when they are using it to back up points they have made time and time again.

Such as if you could find a person in football who would say Carrick has a poor first touch and is a weak player because of it - i would not see it as an appeal to authority, I would see it as you using a further example (stats, opinion) to back up the opinion you have cited on many occasions.

Hococop

LeeJM wrote: »

That almost looks like a wax work of Mata..........ok lads own up who has a Mata shrine in their wardrobe?

I don't , but now that you mention it, maybe I might make one ha

Pro. F

Mitch Connor wrote: »

how about you argue your point, even though others disagree, you make your case, even though others disagree and then you use the same opinion held by someone in high esteem within that field to back up your opinion? I honeslty don't see what the issue with that is. Yes, Neville can be wrong at times, he can also be right.

I have argued with you many times regarding Carrick - his abilities and his effect, whether Cleverley is a better choice for United's midfield than he is, I don't see why using the quotable opinions of people like Scholes, Xavi, Wenger, Fergie, Van Gaal is a logical falacy.

If people were saying Fellaini is crap because XXX says so, or Carrick is great because XXX says so then yeah, there is an issue. But that isn't what people are doing. They are saying XXX is XXX for all these different reasons, oh and here are some people well respected in the game citing a similar opinion.

I refuse to accept that citing anothers opinion is always a bad move. Ignoring others opinion would be.

Also, saying that someone is using an appeal to authority any time they use someone elses opinion, is incorrect imo. Not when they are using it to back up points they have made time and time again.

Such as if you could find a person in football who would say Carrick has a poor first touch and is a weak player because of it - i would not see it as an appeal to authority, I would see it as you using a further example (stats, opinion) to back up the opinion you have cited on many occasions.

I did not say that citing another's opinions is always a bad move or a logical fallacy. You are arguing against things that I did not say.

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

and yet you were sitting at home last night with your bag of popcorn and the minute Gary Neville mentioned it I popped into your head..... success

Yes, you have been successful in making automatically think of you whenever I hear a pundit saying something dumb about United.

Pro. F

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

We're all getting a little snarky in here. Let's talk about how much we love Mata.

We all love Mata, right? That's something we can agree on?
<pic>

That picture is plain weird. Engendering good mood fail.

Maximus Alexander

Pro. F wrote: »

That picture is plain weird. Engendering good mood fail.

It is a bit weird, but I had to be quick. A browser window full of Mata pictures has the potential to make me look even weirder at work.

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

Yes, you have been successful in making automatically think of you whenever I hear a pundit saying something dumb about United.

street footballer is something dumb, but saying cleverly is better than carrick or britton is the best defensive player in England isn't?

UnitedIrishman

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

10 apps for United and he could get a medal though.

There's also the fact that Liverpool are really going to have to spend big to get back into the top four next season given that United, City and Arsenal are all going to spend again this summer. If he comes to United he has the chance to be backup to Rooney (if RVP goes), get 20 odd appearances next season whilst playing in the CL and even if it doesn't work out he's still got plenty of time on his side to move elsewhere. I think it's a no brainer to get in given the fee. Low risk, he's good technically and can play that physical role up front despite his size, and we'll still probably get our fee back if he doesn't play any major part for us.

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

street footballer is something dumb, but saying cleverly is better than carrick or britton is the best defensive player in England isn't?

I've presented logical arguments and evidence for my positions on Carrick, Cleverley and Britton. You have not done so for your position that the term "street footballer" can be defined as anything useful.

Trigger

bangkok wrote: »

my argument if you want to call it that was, some guy posted an article about fellaini saying rooney had said he was world class. I asked the poster did he read that article and he never replied so im guessing he hasn't and what rooney had said falls in line with my view on fellaini. He is a great outlet to have on the team when they are under pressure, great chest control as well, but to be calling fellaini a Man utd legend or a class player is wrong imo

Sorry for not seeing this until now but you know.. Work...

When did I ever suggest that Fellaini was world class, when did I suggest that Rooney was saying that he was world class, where did you actually use the term world class?

You were using the term class to describe herrera, not world class and they have a totally different meaning. You say that the article posted falls in line with what you think about Felliani. So do you agree that he is a quality player? As that is what Rooney called him in that article.

Every week you seem to be pushing the Felliani is not good enough for Man United card, but fail to even acknowledge when he has been one of the better players in the team.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

Lol yeah. Not accepting logical fallacies as a valid argument is intellectual bullshít. Sure.

I do think that I understand football better than the people I am debating with about football. Everybody thinks that. If they didn't then there would be no debate to have, we'd all just defer to whoever we thought understood football best.

You know, now knowing how you approach posting, puts me a little more at ease for whenever I'll get in a discussion with you in future.

Polo_Mint

This is the blueprint of how van Gaal Fixed United

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

I've presented logical arguments and evidence for my positions on Carrick, Cleverley and Britton. You have not done so for your position that the term "street footballer" can be defined as anything useful.

street footballer, in my eyes and probably most peoples, is a player with a poor upbringing, with outrageous skill that was learned playing on the street, a tough player, doesn't really care, aggressive, runs around a lot, has to be reigned in, Rooney, Tevez, Suarez are 3 really good examples of this

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

You know, now knowing how you approach posting, puts me a little more at ease for whenever I'll get in a discussion with you in future.

I think if you are honest with yourself you will realise that whenever you argue that x player/team/manager/tactic is superior to y player/etc you are doing so from the position of thinking that you understand the situation better than the people that you disagree with.

Your Airbag

Rooney is working class, that's where the tag street footballer stems from.

Its quite simple really, its a term to describe how a background influences a player and you see that in how eager Rooney is to be on the ball and involved in everything, like a kid playing in the street, buzzing around and wanting to get involved in all the play. High energy and very physical. His love of the game and his get stuck in style started with him playing it on the street.

Its simple really, I can see it in Rooneys play sometimes and don't have a problem with the term. I get it. I'm not saying its an amazing term but I wouldn't say its stupid either.

Your Airbag

Jaysus lads can we be happy for two consecutive days at least once?

Your Airbag wrote: »

Rooney is working class, that's where the tag street footballer stems from.

Wish I was working class like Rooney..

Maximus Alexander

bangkok wrote: »

street footballer, in my eyes and probably most peoples, is a player with a poor upbringing, with outrageous skill that was learned playing on the street, a tough player, doesn't really care, aggressive, runs around a lot, has to be reigned in, Rooney, Tevez, Suarez are 3 really good examples of this

But this is nonsense. Rooney joined Everton at age 9.

Your Airbag

Deleted User wrote: »

Jaysus lads can we be happy for two consecutive days at least once?



Wish I was working class like Rooney..

He may be filthy rich now but he's still got the working class upbringing, look and mannerisms engrained in him.

Your Airbag

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

But this is nonsense. Rooney joined Everton at age 9.

and what? You think he stopped playing football on the street with his friends and in the school yard from that day forward? He refused to kick a ball unless it was on a blade of grass from there on in?

jayo26

Can we have a separate thread for arguments with bangcock takes up alot of pages every day

keane2097

Rooney has been professionally trained since as young as it gets, he is energetic and physical because he is energetic and physical.

How much younger did the rest of the professional players join the academies to say they learned how to play there rather than the streets?

Street footballer my hole.

Cantona's Collars

Hints by Klopp on Hummels:



“He’s good enough for Manchester United. He’s told me he’s thinking things over.

“We’re always looking around the market ourselves.

“That we want to keep Mats is beyond question. How that works out I don’t know.

“There’s always a list of players who would be interesting in the event that you need them.”

Maximus Alexander

Your Airbag wrote: »

and what? You think he stopped playing football on the street with his friends and in the school yard from that day forward? He refused to kick a ball unless it was on a blade of grass from there on in?

I don't even...

keane2097

Your Airbag wrote: »

and what? You think he stopped playing football on the street with his friends and in the school yard from that day forward? He refused to kick a ball unless it was on a blade of grass from there on in?

Are you laboring under the misapprehension that this doesn't apply to every player ever?

Cantona's Collars

Cheer up lads it could be worse.It could be like last season.

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

street footballer, in my eyes and probably most peoples, is a player with a poor upbringing, with outrageous skill that was learned playing on the street, a tough player, doesn't really care, aggressive, runs around a lot, has to be reigned in, Rooney, Tevez, Suarez are 3 really good examples of this

Yes and, as has been pointed out to you many times, your definition is full of inconsistencies. By your definition and examples the term "street footballer" covers so many players and is so vague as to be meaningless.

Your Airbag

keane2097 wrote: »

Are you laboring under the misapprehension that this doesn't apply to every player ever?

Yes. Not that all academy kids stop playing with their friends but that they may not have all being playing in the streets with their friends.


Rooney grew up playing football on the streets and avenues of Liverpool. Hence the tag street footballer, whats so hard to understand?

From the man himself

“I’ve always believed myself to be from the streets in terms of football,” he said. “I’ve always played on the streets with friends and still do now and again when I get time.


“That is where I learned to play football. There was a lot of help along the way from the academy but the majority of my football was learned on the streets.


“I still play out on the road, yes. Now and again I go back and see friends where I am from in Liverpool and we have a kick-around.
“Everywhere we go, there is a ball. I’m obviously not running around but we stand there and have a kick-around. It’s keepy-ups and messing around.”

greendom

zerks wrote: »

Cheer up lads it could be worse.It could be like last season.

it was lovely while it lasted ! Ahh the memories!

Manutd_4life

zerks wrote: »

Hints by Klopp on Hummels:



“He’s good enough for Manchester United. He’s told me he’s thinking things over.

“We’re always looking around the market ourselves.

“That we want to keep Mats is beyond question. How that works out I don’t know.

“There’s always a list of players who would be interesting in the event that you need them.”

If that quote by Klopp is true, then i think we are in a very good position to sign him this summer. Hummels, Depay, Cylne and a young striker is all we need.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

I think if you are honest with yourself you will realise that whenever you argue that x player/team/manager/tactic is superior to y player/etc you are doing so from the position of thinking that you understand the situation better than the people that you disagree with.

Can honestly say in most cases I'm engaging here with an open mind, as you yourself know, with me conceding a few things to yourself in debate, where I've come around to your viewpoint.

Very few things relating to football where I'd put myself down as an authority to which I feel I know best , very few things in life to be honest

Manutd_4life

How would people feel if we did a swap deal to Southampton for Cylne and we hand them hernandez. Seems like a good deal to me and Southampton sounds like a perfect club for the little pea.

RasTa

The thing about Pro is he never admits when he is wrong, maybe he is always right but I've never read him admitting he was wrong about anything.

Bangkok is meh, usually skim by anything mentioned.

Some people live through the internet it seems.

Now look what are goalies are doing today, enjoying themselves. Is that Alton Towers?

glued

Hummels would be a pretty risky signing considering his form, wages and price tag. I would love to see us make a play for Varane and Carvajal. Varane was reporting looking to get away before Pepe got injured and Real Madrid bought Danilo from Porto so Carvajal isn't going to get much of a look in next season.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

Can honestly say in most cases I'm engaging here with an open mind, as you yourself know, with me conceding a few things to yourself in debate, where I've come around to your viewpoint.

Thinking that you understand the situation under discussion better than the person you are disagreeing with does not preclude you from having an open mind. You might have your mind changed at some later point in the discussion, that does not change the fact that you thought you knew better than the other person when you first disagreed with their opinion.

TheDoc wrote: »

Very few things relating to football where I'd put myself down as an authority to which I feel I know best , very few things in life to be honest

But there are some topics where you are confident in your opinions?

adox

Some people seem intimidated by a strong voice.

How about counter arguing the points hes making rather than crying?

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

But there are some topics where you are confident in your opinions?

Mitch Connor

zerks wrote: »

Hints by Klopp on Hummels:



“He’s good enough for Manchester United. He’s told me he’s thinking things over.

“We’re always looking around the market ourselves.

“That we want to keep Mats is beyond question. How that works out I don’t know.

“There’s always a list of players who would be interesting in the event that you need them.”

i think that has been a bit cobbled together.

His comment on Hummels being good enough for united was a direct answer to a question put to him - what was his opinion on Owen Hargreaves saying Hummels was not good enough for United.

The part about thinking it over, I think, was with regards to his future in general and not directly tied to what was said about United (though the inference is unmistakable)

v3ttel

glued wrote: »

Hummels would be a pretty risky signing considering his form, wages and price tag. I would love to see us make a play for Varane and Carvajal. Varane was reporting looking to get away before Pepe got injured and Real Madrid bought Danilo from Porto so Carvajal isn't going to get much of a look in next season.

I would prefer Clyne over Carvajal. More interested in a move I would think, home-grown, only one year left on his contract so shouldn't cost the earth, knows the Premier League, and is unlikely to want to move elsewhere, unless he is not getting game time.

I think the possibility of getting Varane is extremely remote. Hummels or Laporte would be more viable (but still very expensive) options.

Mitch Connor

Manutd_4life wrote: »

How would people feel if we did a swap deal to Southampton for Cylne and we hand them hernandez. Seems like a good deal to me and Southampton sounds like a perfect club for the little pea.

with the fortunes of their defensive stars of last term - Shaw and Lovern - this season, i'd be a little wary of signing any Southampton defender!

Would depend on money, kinda, as Clyne only has a year left on his contract in the summer. don't know that he would be worth massively more than Chico in the circumstances.

Whatsisname

Like father like son

https://instagram.com/p/1dbcy5Q-iI/

Hococop

Whatsisname wrote: »

Like father like son

https://instagram.com/p/1dbcy5Q-iI/

Next time rvp scores for us I want him doing that celebration haha

thelad95

Bit of a slow news week when you have people arguing with each other about the structure of arguments.

For what it's worth, most arguments on boards are fallacies. Strawmen, Red Herrings, non-sequiturs and appeals to authority regularly occur on this thread. It's refreshing to see proper arguments and when they do appear, they always receive a shed-load of thanks.

Pro. F

RasTa wrote: »

The thing about Pro is he never admits when he is wrong, maybe he is always right but I've never read him admitting he was wrong about anything.

Indeed I have admitted when I've been wrong. It's not exactly something that is easy to search for, but here (first line) is one that I found from the finances discussion.

Do you have a list of all the posters who have you have never seen admitting they were wrong? I imagine it is a very long list. You can cross me off it now.

RasTa wrote: »

Some people live through the internet it seems.

We all post here. We all like the internet. We've all got lives outside it. There is no winner of the I've-got-more-of-a-life-than-you argument in any context.

Your Airbag

RasTa wrote: »

The thing about Pro is he never admits when he is wrong, maybe he is always right but I've never read him admitting he was wrong about anything.

adox wrote: »

Some people seem intimidated by a strong voice.

How about counter arguing the points hes making rather than crying?

lol, have you read the Carrick statments, his rating of Clev and Britton? He likes to make wild statements and argue, sometimes he believes but what is true is that he will drill and argument into the ground and has no problem de-railling a thread to do so.

I agree he never admits he is wrong though, even when he clearly is, this is not a good trait.

Ken Shamrock

Pro. F wrote: »

Indeed I have admitted when I've been wrong. It's not exactly something that is easy to search for, but here (first line) is one that I found from the finances discussion.

Do you have a list of all the posters who have you have never seen admitting they were wrong? I imagine it is a very long list. You can cross me off it now.



We all post here. We all like the internet. We've all got lives outside it. There is no winner of the I've-got-more-of-a-life-than-you argument in any context.

Pro. F wrote: »

why you couldn't have corrected my mistake when I said it, I don't know.

If this is you admitting you were wrong then that says it all really...

Your Airbag

adox wrote: »

Some people seem intimidated by a strong voice.

How about counter arguing the points hes making rather than crying?

People were making counter arguments. I don't recall any "crying". Unless crying is your definition or disagreeing.

How about leaving people at it and not being a sheep who is falling into line behind a "strong voice" or "agreeing"

LeeJM

Jesus lads its all gotten very petty in here today, can we all not let it go and realise that we are all right as we support Utd

Your Airbag

LeeJM wrote: »

Jesus lads its all gotten very petty in here today, can we all not let it go and realise that we are all right as we support Utd

No, Get fcuk3d