Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/3

Liam O

Nani didn't cost near €25m unless there was an awful exchange rate at the time. He had a buyout at around £14m if I remember correctly.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

My point based on Van Gaal and Depay relationship is that a fee will not act as a deterrent for the interest to remain. If a fee of 25m for example, was offered by PSV, that would probably be agreed to swiftly. The relationship with the two may act as benefit to ensure Depay only agrees to join United, and may also act as a dilution to any bidding war taking place.

What you are doing here is giving an explanation of why United might overpay. I accept that United might overpay.

TheDoc wrote: »

I think the issue here is that you feel there is a logical equation, or base, for how transfers work. Your a smart guy, let's not get overly pedantic about this. After your recent post outlining how you coming every discussion of the belief that you are always more knowledgeable that everyone else, this could turn into some awful bickering rubbish, cause I feel I'm spot on here.

I did not say or imply that I think I am always more knowledgeable than everyone else. You have made that up.

TheDoc wrote: »

Depay is very clearly in the upper bracket, of what you would call "Hot European Prospect". He has a world cup under his belt, and a full season of serious return in regards to goals and general performance.

The club from manger to director have indicated the player will move. He has had christenings from Dutch greats both retired and existing, outlining his talent, ability and prospects.

Getting him at £25m would be a snap.

I don't know how you could even bring into the loop the "other transfers that make up the market". We arn't talking about some run of the mill player here. This isn't some journeyman just making sure he has a premier league cheque to collect each week. .

Would seriously question how my understanding of where transfer fees are at is wrong.

I'm not talking about run-of-the-mill, journey man players either. Is the world of football transfers only made up of one "Upper Bracket Hot European Prospect" and the rest are journey men?

If the club from manager to director have indicated that the player will move, then once again that strengthens, not weakens, United's bargaining position.

Giggsy11

Liam O wrote: »

Nani didn't cost near €25m unless there was an awful exchange rate at the time. He had a buyout at around £14m if I remember correctly.

It was 17Million pounds which at that time was 25Million Euros. Same with Anderson, he was 19 or 20 Million pounds which was 30 Million Euros at that time but usual journos does the **** stirring by converting to pounds at today's exchange rate.

RobertKK

Guillem Ballague said last January that Laporte would like a move to United, but the full buyout clause will have to be paid,.
https://twitter.com/GuillemBalague/status/559795833395507201
Exchange rate better and closer to £30.5 million now.

Laporte and Hummels are two players Van Gaal reportedly wants.

I think after all the defenders he had to play this season, he won't leave himself short.

Imagine if Van Gaal bought Hummels and did a Schweinsteiger on him, as in move him from being a winger to a midfield player, and in this case Hummels is moved from central defender to defensive midfielder, with Smalling, Laporte, Rojo and Jones the main central defenders.

bullvine

Anyone see much of Depay, my mate was at Holland V Turkey game, said he was pants!

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

What you are doing here is giving an explanation of why United might overpay. I accept that United might overpay.

I did not say or imply that I think I am always more knowledgeable than everyone else. You have made that up.

I do think that I understand football better than the people I am debating with about football. Everybody thinks that. If they didn't then there would be no debate to have, we'd all just defer to whoever we thought understood football best.

The second quote is from you earlier in the week, where I responded with "No, everyone does not think that". Did I take you too literally there?

I'm not talking about run-of-the-mill, journey man players either. Is the world of football transfers only made up of one "Upper Bracket Hot European Prospect" and the rest are journey men?

No its not, and you well that's not what I meant. There are various brackets where you can have a realistic expectation of what the transfer fee will be. Top tier, being the superstars/world class, all the way down to squad fillers.

Top Young European talent is one of these, where you can ballpark a pretty accurate figure.

If the club from manager to director have indicated that the player will move, then once again that strengthens, not weakens, United's bargaining position.

Of course it does. 25m (which to re-iterate is what is being said by a reliable person, previous enquiries PSV supposedly wnated more) I'm sure the club officials will try bargain it down, but if it became apparent haggling a few million would potential open up the way for other clubs to come into the equation, I'm sure 25m wont be quabbled with.

TheDoc

bullvine wrote: »

Anyone see much of Depay, my mate was at Holland V Turkey game, said he was pants!

Watching him since turn of the year. Would rate substantially higher then Sterling, who if you are English PL focused, circles there would have you believe Sterling is the best young talent in world football.

Depay is still young, so some inconsistent performances will happen. But from what I've seen even when he drifts out of games on occasion can get quickly back involved creating a chance or a strike on goal.

He was superb against Spain in the last round of international matches.

UnitedIrishman

Pro. F wrote: »

That is still a tiny sample with a big range from which to be deciding what is and is not good value.

I think it is a bad idea to use international caps to limit the players you are looking to buy. Caps are a poor way of valuing a player. If two players are of the same quality, but one has more international caps then he'll usually sell for more money. Caps drive up price without being a reliable indicator of a player's quality.

If we just use that sample then I would look at it like this:
Nani* - €25.5m - poor value
Mohammed Salah* - €15m - meh value
Andre Shurrle - €21m - good value
Willian - £32m - poor value
Eden Hazard* - £32m - meh value
Marco Reus* - €18m - good value
Mario Gotze - €37m meh to poor value

So, based just on that sample, I would conclude that Depey for £25m / €34.5m would be meh value, not the must buy Doc describes it. It's the type of price I would live with, but lauding it as good value looks very weird to me.

* I've only seen these players enough after those transfers, so I'm making the reasonable assumption that they performed at a similar level in their previous clubs.

With the sample size - tried to get major transfers for young wingers prior to joining a major club so was fairly limited in options. Think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on it - we just have a differing opinion on the market so no point in us going around in circles on it for the rest of the day.

bullvine wrote: »

Anyone see much of Depay, my mate was at Holland V Turkey game, said he was pants!

He was. But the entire Dutch team was horrible that day. Depay was doubled up on most of the time which meant ball after ball was hoofed from RB and LB towards Huntelaar and later Dost. It was bad stuff all round.

bullvine

TheDoc wrote: »

Watching him since turn of the year. Would rate substantially higher then Sterling, who if you are English PL focused, circles there would have you believe Sterling is the best young talent in world football.

Depay is still young, so some inconsistent performances will happen. But from what I've seen even when he drifts out of games on occasion can get quickly back involved creating a chance or a strike on goal.

He was superb against Spain in the last round of international matches.

My buddy was saying he missed a sitter at the end so that might have clouded his judgement, he also said DeJong was absolute class in the game before he was subbed off.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

The second quote is from you earlier in the week, where I responded with "No, everyone does not think that". Did I take you too literally there?

I clarified that statement for you later, here:
"I think if you are honest with yourself you will realise that whenever you argue that x player/team/manager/tactic is superior to y player/etc you are doing so from the position of thinking that you understand the situation better than the people that you disagree with."

That is not at all the same as:
"I think I am always more knowledgeable than everyone else"

You haven't taken me too literally, you have completely changed what I said to suit your own imagination.

TheDoc wrote: »

No its not, and you well that's not what I meant. There are various brackets where you can have a realistic expectation of what the transfer fee will be. Top tier, being the superstars/world class, all the way down to squad fillers.

Top Young European talent is one of these, where you can ballpark a pretty accurate figure.

You brought run-of-the-mill journey men into the conversation. Why?

And, my hoop you can make an accurate estimate on what most top prospects will sell for.

TheDoc wrote: »

Of course it does. 25m (which to re-iterate is what is being said by a reliable person, previous enquiries PSV supposedly wnated more) I'm sure the club officials will try bargain it down, but if it became apparent haggling a few million would potential open up the way for other clubs to come into the equation, I'm sure 25m wont be quabbled with.

I'm not interested in what you are sure will happen. You reckon £25m would be very good value, I disagree. Whether or not United will pay that amount is not convincing evidence that it is good value, because as we all know, United have generally been poor at buying players for good prices in recent years.

Vic Vinegar

De Gea has been nominated for PFA player of the year and young player of the year.

Well done Dave.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

I clarified that statement for you later, here:
"I think if you are honest with yourself you will realise that whenever you argue that x player/team/manager/tactic is superior to y player/etc you are doing so from the position of thinking that you understand the situation better than the people that you disagree with."

That is not at all the same as:
"I think I am always more knowledgeable than everyone else"

You haven't taken me too literally, you have completely changed what I said to suit your own imagination.

I took the "you's" in your top comment as you talking to me, about me. Didn't realise you were using it as a general term for "us all". That's fair enough.

You brought run-of-the-mill journey men into the conversation. Why?

Because you mentioned about the rest of the transfer market activity. I was outlining I don't see how a journeyman transfer would have any link or impact to what we are discussing, or transfers in general

And, my hoop you can make an accurate estimate on what most top prospects will sell for.

If you say so. I'll say now that Depay will be sold for between 22-27m, Dybala for 35-40m and Hummels will probably cost us 30-35m.

If you are querying me giving a specific figure, that is you being anal as usual.

I'm not interested in what you are sure will happen. You reckon £25m would be very good value, I disagree. Whether or not United will pay that amount is not convincing evidence that it is good value, because as we all know, United have generally been poor at buying players for good prices in recent years.

From seeing your posts on Hummels, you have a personal opinion on what represents value and good business. That drastically differs from the reality of the transfer market, so we are going to be at an impasse on this conversation going forward.

A few pages back you mentioned 25m would be the max you would pay for Hummels. That's fine, that is your evaluation and your personal representation of value.

The likeyhood is that a World Cup winning defender with Domestic titles, cups and extensive CL experience and most likely a future captain of Germany, will not be sold for less then 30m. Thats only a few million out, and it appears work is being down there so maybe he will be got at a lower fee.

But when you talk about fees as you have outlined in previous posts, you put a personal evaluation on what you believe is representative of a player and their ability. So in reality how can there ever really be a discussion about transfer fees and business with you, when you have your own equation for creating "value", based on something not tangible to the rest of us and totally out of whack with what will most likely happen.

Like, out of interest, how exactly have you worked out Hummels to you is a 25m maximum transfer, and how exactly does 25m for Depay not appear to be an enticing fee? Walk me through it and maybe I'll get where your coming from.

Maximus Alexander

Vic Vinegar wrote: »

De Gea has been nominated for PFA player of the year and young player of the year.

Well done Dave.

What's the cut-off age for 'young player'?

irishfeen

Vic Vinegar wrote: »

De Gea has been nominated for PFA player of the year and young player of the year.

Well done Dave.

You would have to assume Harry Kane could take both.

TheDoc

irishfeen wrote: »

You would have to assume Harry Kane could take both.

The general consensus around a lot of the British media is that Hazard is the standout in the league. It's caught some amount of traction, and I'm sure players will be influenced by that as well.

I've only seen Hazard a few times this season, and he has been pretty meh. But there is such a consensus there I'd imagine for good reason.

However if you see Hazard flounder on Sat, and De Gea make some world class saves, wouldn't be surpised to see De Gea get it. Sometimes players voting forget the entire campaign and just remember the recent stuff.

Coutinho in that list is embarrassing by the way, and a damning shot to the quality in the league at present. He has had some sporadically decent games since January, scoring two great goals, but in no way shape or form would be a player of the year.

bucketybuck

bangkok wrote: »

di maria, 5th most expensive transfer of all time. Do people think we overpaid? of course we did, by £20m at least and that's not based on this season either. Madrid knew we had loads of money and got an incredible deal

Remind me again about the £40m bid Madrid accepted for Di Maria from some other club?

You can do that at the same time as you remind me about the £4m bid Arsenal had accepted for Ronaldo. I looking forward to seeing evidence of both of these?

irishfeen

TheDoc wrote: »

The general consensus around a lot of the British media is that Hazard is the standout in the league. It's caught some amount of traction, and I'm sure players will be influenced by that as well.

I've only seen Hazard a few times this season, and he has been pretty meh. But there is such a consensus there I'd imagine for good reason.

However if you see Hazard flounder on Sat, and De Gea make some world class saves, wouldn't be surpised to see De Gea get it. Sometimes players voting forget the entire campaign and just remember the recent stuff.

Coutinho in that list is embarrassing by the way, and a damning shot to the quality in the league at present. He has had some sporadically decent games since January, scoring two great goals, but in no way shape or form would be a player of the year.

Ha I forgot about Hazard actually although he is doing next to nothing lately which may account for it ... PFA Player of the Year going to Hazard & PFA Young Player of the Year to Harry Kane.

De Gea will make team of the year with ease though.

Vic Vinegar

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

What's the cut-off age for 'young player'?

23 or under at the start of the season.

Jimmy Iovine

TheDoc wrote: »

The general consensus around a lot of the British media is that Hazard is the standout in the league. It's caught some amount of traction, and I'm sure players will be influenced by that as well.

I've only seen Hazard a few times this season, and he has been pretty meh. But there is such a consensus there I'd imagine for good reason.

However if you see Hazard flounder on Sat, and De Gea make some world class saves, wouldn't be surpised to see De Gea get it. Sometimes players voting forget the entire campaign and just remember the recent stuff.

Coutinho in that list is embarrassing by the way, and a damning shot to the quality in the league at present. He has had some sporadically decent games since January, scoring two great goals, but in no way shape or form would be a player of the year.

Have they voted already? Terry posted this last week.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2426766-john-terry-loves-philippe-coutinho-southampton-in-pfa-voting

RobertKK

https://twitter.com/Chana9MUFC/status/588747980322304001

Says it all.

bangkok

Hazard senior player of the year, Kane young player although I would love if de gea got young player

Caovyn Lineah

RobertKK wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Chana9MUFC/status/588747980322304001

Says it all.

Lol indeed on the premier league footballers who know much more about football than you or I voting for Coutinho, lol indeed.

killwill

irishfeen wrote: »

You would have to assume Harry Kane could take both.

Surely Hazard has been player of the year?

bucketybuck

bucketybuck wrote: »

I can easily say that we overpaid for Felliani not because we had the spare cash, but because it was late in the transfer window and Everton knew Moyes badly needed him. They were in a stronger bargaining position and we had to overpay, and it had nothing to do with us being a big club with loads of money, which was the point of all this.

That whole Fellaini transfer is an example of how not to do business. Everton had United bent over the rail by the time we actually tried to sign him and knew we were desperate for a CM, hence the eventual fee.

billyhead

I have a feeling that Depay would be no better then Nani. We should hold onto him when he returns from his loan spell and give him a run in the team to see how he adapts to LVGs system. I would also be concerned about Hummels and if he could live up to his expectations. Would love to see Godin from Athletico signed. Reckon he would be a beast in the EPL.

Liam O

Caovyn Lineah wrote: »

Lol indeed on the premier league footballers who know much more about football than you or I voting for Coutinho, lol indeed.

They know more than us? Can you substantiate that?

Coutinho plays further forward than Herrera so not really a fair comparison on Herrera tbh.

Obviously I'd love to see DDG get PFA Player of the Year, failing that the young PFA award. There may be some notable overall better candidates, but I feel he should get some recognition from his peers for a stellar season.

The last and only time that a GK won the PFA award was Peter Shilton for the 77-78 season. I don't think a GK has won the young PFA award ever, so I wouldn't be holding my breath for DDG's chances for either award considering some of the goalkeeping greats who have been neglected over the years.

Hopefully his 'award' comes in the next few weeks with an improved golden 5 year contract from United.

Caovyn Lineah

Liam O wrote: »

They know more than us? Can you substantiate that?

Coutinho plays further forward than Herrera so not really a fair comparison on Herrera tbh.

I need to substantiate that professional footballers know more about their sport than you? You certainly have a very high opinion of yourself and your knowledge, sorry to ruin that for you.

RobertKK

Caovyn Lineah wrote: »

Lol indeed on the premier league footballers who know much more about football than you or I voting for Coutinho, lol indeed.

Being a premier league footballer doesn't mean they do know more about football.
It simply means they have better individual skills of the game than you or I.

RobertKK

Caovyn Lineah wrote: »

I need to substantiate that professional footballers know more about their sport than you? You certainly have a very high opinion of yourself and your knowledge, sorry to ruin that for you.

Jose Mourinho was not a great footballer, therefore he must have not been very knowledgeable about the game...

Caovyn Lineah

RobertKK wrote: »

Jose Mourinho was not a great footballer, therefore he must have not been very knowledgeable about the game...

He was a professional footballer, therefore I would wager he was better than anybody you or I know.

Caovyn Lineah

RobertKK wrote: »

Being a premier league footballer doesn't mean they do know more about football.
It simply means they have better individual skills of the game than you or I.

I can't believe you typed this and actually believe it.

bucketybuck

Caovyn Lineah wrote: »

I can't believe you typed this and actually believe it.

I can't believe you think Jason McAteer knows more about the game than Jose Mourinho. :eek:

Caovyn Lineah

bucketybuck wrote: »

I can't believe you think Jason McAteer knows more about the game than Jose Mourinho. :eek:

Could you point out where I said this? I said a professional footballer knows more about football than an average joe soap sitting at home on a laptop or phone talking about it.

Not once did I mention the level of their footballing ability had anything to do with their knowledge of the game.

RobertKK

Caovyn Lineah wrote: »

Could you point out where I said this? I said a professional footballer knows more about football than an average joe soap sitting at home on a laptop or phone talking about it.

Not once did I mention the level of their footballing ability had anything to do with their knowledge of the game.

But we are not your average Joe soap as we watch lots of games, there are some footballers who think you can bite, stamp on a player, dive, head butt and use your hand.
I am not a professional player but I have seen professional players think you can do these things in a game of football/Soccer.
Even some premier league players have been known to do these things, they clearly know more than I do.

bangkok

bucketybuck wrote: »

Remind me again about the £40m bid Madrid accepted for Di Maria from some other club?

You can do that at the same time as you remind me about the £4m bid Arsenal had accepted for Ronaldo. I looking forward to seeing evidence of both of these?

Ronaldio was on trial with arsenal, a deal was close both ronaldo and wenger have said this, if united didn't come with a bid arsenal would more than likely have signed him for less than we paid.

And for do maria if no other club was going to pay the money we did for Him and Madrid were desperate to sell him why did we pay so much for him so?

Caovyn Lineah

RobertKK wrote: »

But we are not your average Joe soap as we watch lots of games, there are some footballers who think you can bite, stamp on a player, dive, head butt and use your hand.
I am not a professional player but I have seen professional players think you can do these things in a game of football/Soccer.
Even some premier league players have been known to do these things, they clearly know more than I do.

You are an average Joe sitting here talking about football, don't get ideas above your station just because of the discretions of a footballer. Do you think that the stampers/biters/divers/handballers don't know they are doing wrong?

RobertKK

Caovyn Lineah wrote: »

You are an average Joe sitting here talking about football, don't get ideas above your station just because of the discretions of a footballer. Do you think that the stampers/biters/divers/handballers don't know they are doing wrong?

I am not above my station. All I am doing is what people who appear on TV do - ex footballers, journalists, TV presenters do and giving my opinion.

I put money on United to be top two this season in April 2014 when United were not qualifying for Europe.
One year on and United 1 point behind second, with second place a real possibility, clearly I know nothing.

I think some of them do it out of instinct rather than thinking, some of them do it by planning it.
Sometimes they are simply stupid players with a talent.

Caovyn Lineah

RobertKK wrote: »

I am not above my station. All I am doing is what people who appear on TV do - ex footballers, journalists, TV presenters do and giving my opinion.

I put money on United to be top two this season in April 2014 when United were not qualifying for Europe.
One year on and United 1 point behind second, with second place a real possibility, clearly I know nothing.

I think some of them do it out of instinct rather than thinking, some of them do it by planning it.
Sometimes they are simply stupid players with a talent.

Give your opinion, you're entitled to do so just like we all are but to say we know more than a professional footballer about their job is laughable. And just because we watch a few games a week?

RobertKK

Caovyn Lineah wrote: »

Give your opinion, you're entitled to do so just like we all are but to say we know more than a professional footballer about their job is laughable. And just because we watch a few games a week?

I didn't say I know more, it would be wrong to assume all premier league footballers are intelligent when it comes to football opinions.

Most of them would be useless managers.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

Because you mentioned about the rest of the transfer market activity. I was outlining I don't see how a journeyman transfer would have any link or impact to what we are discussing, or transfers in general

But the rest of the transfer market doesn't just consist of journeymen does it? What you are missing is the fact that beyond the few overpriced transfers that you might like to real off in support of your valuation, there are also plenty of good players (including top prospects) that are bought each window for much more reasonable sums.

TheDoc wrote: »

If you say so. I'll say now that Depay will be sold for between 22-27m, Dybala for 35-40m and Hummels will probably cost us 30-35m.

If you are querying me giving a specific figure, that is you being anal as usual.

From seeing your posts on Hummels, you have a personal opinion on what represents value and good business. That drastically differs from the reality of the transfer market, so we are going to be at an impasse on this conversation going forward.

A few pages back you mentioned 25m would be the max you would pay for Hummels. That's fine, that is your evaluation and your personal representation of value.

The likeyhood is that a World Cup winning defender with Domestic titles, cups and extensive CL experience and most likely a future captain of Germany, will not be sold for less then 30m. Thats only a few million out, and it appears work is being down there so maybe he will be got at a lower fee.

But when you talk about fees as you have outlined in previous posts, you put a personal evaluation on what you believe is representative of a player and their ability. So in reality how can there ever really be a discussion about transfer fees and business with you, when you have your own equation for creating "value", based on something not tangible to the rest of us and totally out of whack with what will most likely happen.

Like, out of interest, how exactly have you worked out Hummels to you is a 25m maximum transfer, and how exactly does 25m for Depay not appear to be an enticing fee? Walk me through it and maybe I'll get where your coming from.

You are confusing what a particular player is likely to go for with what represents good value for a player of that quality. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody that a World Cup winning, high profile, poor form, slightly injury prone future captain of Germany is not likely to be available for good value. It should also come as no surprise to anybody that high profile young players are also often overpriced for what they actually offer (including current ability and future potential).

If you really can't imagine how I come by my opinions of what represents value, I'll explain it for you. I make my judgements on their current quality, future potential and risk of falling short of that potential from watching them play and reading about their careers etc. Then I compare them to players that would offer similar quality who have been transferred in recent years.

You can pretend that me doing the above is some sort of intangible, esoteric and inaccurate process that nobody can engage with, but in reality it is what most people do and you won't be able to think of a better way of deciding on what represents value.

But then, as I said, you aren't talking about what represents good value. You've gone off estimating what you think a particular will sell for and then calling that good value.

TheDoc wrote: »

If you are querying me giving a specific figure, that is you being anal as usual.

There is nothing anal about saying that you are chatting a lot of gash when you claim that you can make an accurate estimate on the transfer fees for most top young European footballers.

Caovyn Lineah

RobertKK wrote: »

I didn't say I know more, it would be wrong to assume all premier league footballers are intelligent when it comes to football opinions.

Most of them would be useless managers.

It's like saying that you're a better actor than De Niro or Pacino because you watch 20 movies a week.

RobertKK

Caovyn Lineah wrote: »

It's like saying that you're a better actor than De Niro or Pacino because you watch 20 movies a week.

That is not what I am saying.

Does a film reviewer have to be an actor?

#15

keane2097 wrote: »

I literally don't believe a lot of the posts I read in this thread these days.

I know you called it a long time ago, but some posters are not at all convincing and it's becoming totally obvious what they are at.

Caovyn Lineah

RobertKK wrote: »

That is not what I am saying.

Does a film reviewer have to be an actor?

No they don't and as much as they would love it, a reviewer does not know as much about movies as actors. It's quite simple.

Mitch Connor

RobertKK wrote: »

That is not what I am saying.

Does a film reviewer have to be an actor?

no, but i would appreciate that if they had studied film for professional purposes.

adox

Ah lads don't engage.

Maximus Alexander

Caovyn Lineah wrote: »

It's like saying that you're a better actor than De Niro or Pacino because you watch 20 movies a week.

It would be more like saying some film fanatics know more about the film making process than Chris O'Dowd because they spend all of their free time writing scripts, reading autobiographies of directors, studying special effects techniques and writing their own amateur scripts.

Just pointing out the poor analogy, rather than taking sides.

Will I Amnt

Samuel Eto'o voted Yaya Toure as the best player in the world last year.

RobertKK

Fact is Coutinho will win nothing, he is a list filler.