Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/3

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

Clearly it's being lost in translation. But I'll try again.

Your stance is that your representation of "value" is based on your thoughts of potential, current ability and the other stuff you mentioned.

My stance is that, from the wealth of history we have, we simply know that is not how things work with this particular type of transfer "Highly rated sought after young player".

I'm not calling you out as a lunatic, I genuinely get where you are coming from. My take on it though, in the specific example of Depay at 25m(which is still speculation by the way) represents a brilliant deal, in the context of this type of transfer.

I'm not disagreeing with the evaluations you are making, I'm disagreeing with the totalitarian tone your taking with how you are putting fees on players, as if anything higher is bad business.

In the case of Hummels. you've outlined I believe 25m presents meh value, 20m would be the height of his value in your opinion. That's fine. But when it comes to an actual transfer, in the real world, Dortmund will roll out loads of stuff to justify their asking price, not forgetting the likes of Thiago Silva, David Luiz and other CB's transfers in recent seasons which were vastly higher in fees.

I'm not disagreeing with how you are making your evaluations, I'm disagreeing with how authoritative you are being making them, indicating things like bad business or "represents meh value". I get the feeling if you were in Woodwards shoes, you wouldn't be able to seal any type of deal.

...

As matter of interest, and maybe you need to pretend you are an Arsenal fan, what evaluation would you have put on Welbeck, before the transfer happened?

First of all, you need to grow a pair and stop whinging about my tone. I'm giving my opinion, not trying to romance you. Get over it.

You missed my post last night where I addressed the points above already, here. But I'll repeat the most relevant bit for you:

"You are confusing what a particular player is likely to go for with what represents good value for a player of that quality. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody that a World Cup winning, high profile, poor form, slightly injury prone future captain of Germany is not likely to be available for good value. It should also come as no surprise to anybody that high profile young players are also often overpriced for what they actually offer (including current ability and future potential)."

You can pretend that somebody advising caution when it comes to the types of players who tend to be overpriced would have no chance of ever closing any deals, but that ignores the fact that for as many poor value deals that get struck each window there are plenty more that are good value.

With regards to Welbeck, I'm not going to leave myself open to a debate on how he should have been valued. I already humoured you last night when you asked me to walk you through how I put valuations on players and you didn't respond to it. It should be obvious how I work out the value of players by now, if it's not you can read the post linked above.

TheDoc wrote: »

Also you calling me out now twice about being able to put a decent figure on a potential transfer( havn't gone back to check, but feel I was relatively spot on last summer) is baffling. It doesn't take a genius to put a rough figure on what a transfer will be. Or am I some form of wizard?

Depay 23m-25m
Hummels 30m-33m
Clyne 8m-12m

There are three transfers that are hotly linked, and what I'd expect them to go through for. We can save the post and come back to it after the transfer window. Not in anyway shape or form a gloating measure, but to show that it's not outrageously difficult to put a accurate value onto a transfer. I don't see why you are taking such exception to it.

You said you could give accurate estimates of what top young European talents will be sold for. So first of all, decide whether those prices are in Euros or Sterling. That's two estimates that fit your claim there, Hummels wouldn't count as young in this context. You'd need to give another good few (say 10 or so) if you want to have something conclusive to look back and check on after the window has passed.

Nalz

Giggsy11 wrote: »

There is no way Di Maria should be on the bench with such a mini injury crisis. He should play on wings with Mata behind Rooney.

There is a way.

McNair plays Cb
Shaw plays Rb
Rooney plays cm
Falcao plays up top

The rest of the team remains the same.

No way? Incorrect :-)

Manutd_4life

Trilla wrote: »

There is a way.

McNair plays Cb Very possible
Shaw plays Rb LB i think you mean
Rooney plays cm Oh god no
Falcao plays up topKeep rooney up there

The rest of the team remains the same.

No way? Incorrect :-)

Change the backline obviously but i don't think there's any need to change midfield or strikers

Mitch Connor

i would certainly be looking to make as few changes as possible. If Blind/Jones make it then its a choice of where Blind plays. If neither make it, then there will have to be a lot of changes in both player and position.

Giggsy11

Manutd_4life wrote: »

Change the backline obviously but i don't think there's any need to change midfield or strikers

Midfield should be changed with Carrick out.

bangkok

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Considering Blind played on in the match last week, it seems odd the same injury would keep him out a week later.

yea but adrenaline flowing, Manchester derby and all that would have kept him going, maybe it was only the next day it really effected him.

I played a match years ago, tore my lateral ligament and played on for the last 30mins. Was sore but got through it, didn't play for about 6 weeks after it though

homerjay2005

the fact that 3 or 4 injuries really upsets our team just shows us how badly we need to invest in a center half and 2 midfielders this summer.

bmcc10

bangkok wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-IYIef0zYI

start this man tomorrow

The 1st 2 goals is exactly the reason why falcao has been such a bad fit fit for us, He's a striker that play's on the shoulder of the last defender an out and out goalscorer.

After Nevilles anaylsis off Rooney and what role Van Gaal wants his striker to do in the system dragging defenders out of position and being smart in the role he wants him to play, I just think Falcao isn't intelligant enough to play that role and RVP be more suited if fit.

Shame really with Falcao wrong player at the wrong time.

Giggsy11

homerjay2005 wrote: »

the fact that 3 or 4 injuries really upsets our team just shows us how badly we need to invest in a center half and 2 midfielders this summer.

Surely we need to invest but any team in the world would suffer with 3 CBs and 2 Midfielders missing and all of them are first choice, second choice.

Hulk Hands

If Rooney does have to slot in to the DM role, then id rather see Di Maria leading the line than Falcao or Van Persie. It's not his position whatsoever, but I still think he'd be more effective tomorrow up there than Falcao or an unfit Van Persie. Pace (Hernandez) has worked well for us in the past up against Terry

Pro. F

DDG
Valencia Smalling Blackett Shaw
Di Maria Fellaini Herrera Young
Mata
Rooney

Is one way. Very open in the middle of the park though, especially considering the change in the back-line.

DDG
Valencia Smalling Blackett Shaw
Herrera Rooney Fellaini
Mata RVP Young

Has a more of a defensive balance but would almost certainly be horrible going forward.

Manutd_4life

My predicted line up for tomorrow: (433)

DDG
ANTO SMALLING MCNAIR SHAW
HERRERA FELLAINI DI MARIA
MATA ROONEY YOUNG


Hopefully Fellaini can do a job as a DM.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

...

I'm gonna leave it be to be honest, can take up transfer stuff when it comes to the window.

Unstoppable force meets immovable object.

I will say however I don't look for your romancing, that while I give you credit and fair dues on some of your opinions, a lot of them are widely out of whack and I disagree with totally.

My post first started out questioning your stance that 25m for Depay was not good value, and Hummels is worth 20m. And that while your personal evaluation is fine, it's totally out of sync with how players are actually valued, and while 25m for a Depay might not represent a legacy take on "value on the transfer market" in the current climate of transfer fees, 25m is great value for a Depay type player.

But this is just us going in circles.

Also I wasn't laying a trap with the Welbeck question. It would be very easy to evaluate him at 8m, and if he was foreign 10m would be the max someone like him would cost. But I could fully appreciate, understand, and even assumed before the deal was announced, he would go for an inflated fee. But as part of that deal, our side would have used the criteria of him being an England international, and regular, among other hypotheticals, to inflate that fee. Irregardless of the fact he is a smack bang average striker. Which then in turn makes the Blind deal an absolute snip at €14m.

bmcc10

Might be nothing to it but just looking at the training pics rafael seems fairly involved wouldn't be suprised to see him start.

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

DDG
Valencia Smalling Blackett Shaw
Di Maria Fellaini Herrera Young
Mata
Rooney

Is one way. Very open in the middle of the park though, especially considering the change in the back-line.

DDG
Valencia Smalling Blackett Shaw
Herrera Rooney Fellaini
Di Maria RVP Young

Has a more of a defensive balance but would almost certainly be horrible going forward.

option 1 no chance, Chelsea would destroy us in midfield

option 2 is much better although if RVP couldn't even make the bench last week, I cant see him starting tomorrow. Either Falcao will start or it will be di maria up top with Januzaj out wide

actually just noticed you don't have mata in the 2nd team, mata will def start

RobertKK

Johner wrote: »

He scored 3, 3!!! :pac:

Maybe I am psychic and I'm counting tomorrow's goal :pac:

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

I'm gonna leave it be to be honest, can take up transfer stuff when it comes to the window.

Unstoppable force meets immovable object.

I will say however I don't look for your romancing, that while I give you credit and fair dues on some of your opinions, a lot of them are widely out of whack and I disagree with totally.

My post first started out questioning your stance that 25m for Depay was not good value, and Hummels is worth 20m. And that while your personal evaluation is fine, it's totally out of sync with how players are actually valued, and while 25m for a Depay might not represent a legacy take on "value on the transfer market" in the current climate of transfer fees, 25m is great value for a Depay type player.

But this is just us going in circles.

Also I wasn't laying a trap with the Welbeck question. It would be very easy to evaluate him at 8m, and if he was foreign 10m would be the max someone like him would cost. But I could fully appreciate, understand, and even assumed before the deal was announced, he would go for an inflated fee. But as part of that deal, our side would have used the criteria of him being an England international, and regular, among other hypotheticals, to inflate that fee. Irregardless of the fact he is a smack bang average striker. Which then in turn makes the Blind deal an absolute snip at €14m.

So that's two posts now that I went to the trouble of responding to you with, including answering all your questions and explaining the reasoning behind what I have said, that you have completely blanked and instead just repeated your argument. That isn't us going in circles, that is you soap boxing, ignoring any counter arguments and explanations that are put to you.

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

option 1 no chance, Chelsea would destroy us in midfield

option 2 is much better although if RVP couldn't even make the bench last week, I cant see him starting tomorrow. Either Falcao will start or it will be di maria up top with Januzaj out wide

actually just noticed you don't have mata in the 2nd team, mata will def start

Yeah should be Mata ahead of Di Maria in the second team. Edited now.

Rayne Wooney

I'd go with the front 6 of

......Fellaini Ander......
Mata..Rooney..Di Maria
............Falcao..........


Di Maria and Mata would have to put a serious shift in defensively and going forward

Nalz

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I'd go with the front 6 of

......Fellaini Ander......
Mata..Rooney..Di Maria
............Falcao..........


Di Maria and Mata would have to put a serious shift in defensively and going forward

This is what I would like but then your dropping Young, unless you play him left back over Shaw.

killwill

Trilla wrote: »

This is what I would like but then your dropping Young, unless you play him left back over Shaw.

I would definitely have Young in instead of Shaw.
Shaw is not match fit. Feck all playing time recently.

On paper the front 6 looks very strong.

Nailz

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I'd go with the front 6 of

......Fellaini Ander......
Mata..Rooney..Di Maria
............Falcao..........


Di Maria and Mata would have to put a serious shift in defensively and going forward

I love the fact that you could have Val and Young in the fullback positions and be like "LOL, we'll just let Smalling and one of the young fellas defend. Be grand!"

MD1990

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I'd go with the front 6 of

......Fellaini Ander......
Mata..Rooney..Di Maria
............Falcao..........


Di Maria and Mata would have to put a serious shift in defensively and going forward

I wish u were the manager of Man Utd.

Liam O

MD1990 wrote: »

I wish u were the manager of Man Utd.

The front 6 last time United played Chelsea and drew was Blind, Fellaini, Di Maria, Mata, Januzaj and RVP. Which is better?

Nalz

Liam O wrote: »

The front 6 last time United played Chelsea and drew was Blind, Fellaini, Di Maria, Mata, Januzaj and RVP. Which is better?

Flukey draw imo

Liam O

Trilla wrote: »

Flukey draw imo

United weren't significantly worse than the Chelsea team that were full strength and flying. I'd like to think Herrera and Fellaini can play defensively enough for the deeper positions. I'd probably drop Falcao and put Di Maria through the middle and Rooney up top playing both Young and Shaw but LVG is going to want Rooney's industry through the middle imo. I may also be tempted to play Young or Rooney on the the right to try deal with Hazard who is a United killer but again, probably wont happen.

Backstreet Moyes

Cant wait to see Hazard get Fellainieeedd

The_Kew_Tour

Would love to beat them tomorrow

Love it!!

Beating them is always a good day.

bucketybuck

Come the hour come the man!

Bollocks to Rooney in midfield, Felliani always said he was a midfielder and he is in great form so let just put him in there and challenge him to perform. Why can't Felliani and Herrera work in the middle? Lets just do it and see if they are the real deal or not.

Felliani holding the centre, Herrera, Mata and Di Maria passing and moving, Young and Rooney working hard, no reason why they can't make it work.

irishfeen

With our injury list for tomorrow evening I would be delighted with a point.

irishfeen

Didn't hear any of LVG's presser today lads but how long are Blind, Carrick, Rojo & Jones expected to be out for? ... maybe he is not taking the risk in playing?

Mitch Connor

irishfeen wrote: »

Didn't hear any of LVG's presser today lads but how long are Blind, Carrick, Rojo & Jones expected to be out for? ... maybe he is not taking the risk in playing?

Would expect blind and Jones back next game. LVG said they might make tomorrow as it is. Only rojo, Carrick and obviously Evans are certain to miss out according to him.

Liam O

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Would expect blind and Jones back next game. LVG said they might make tomorrow as it is. Only rojo, Carrick and obviously Evans are certain to miss out according to him.

This is Evans last game yeah? Still a joke that he was banned for so long.

titan18

Can't see any way we pick up a point without Blind or Carrick

irishfeen

titan18 wrote: »

Can't see any way we pick up a point without Blind or Carrick

I'd tend to agree - both out really is a perfect storm... our big hope is Jose will stay with this defensive stuff against the big boys and maybe we won't be under massive pressure if they sit back.

UnitedIrishman

Was far more positive about the result before all the injuries but even still Chelsea look like a side running on empty at the minute. They were so unbelievably poor against QPR and needed a Green balls up to get a winner. We're full of confidence so hopefully that will translate to tommorow.

Unfortunately it sounds like it could well be Rooney in midfield which is a worry but he might perform differently given we've hanged our style of play completely since he was last tried there. I'm probably in the minority that would want RVP up front rather than Falcao purely on the basis that I can't see Falcao getting much change out of Terry and Cahill/Zouma in terms of holding up the ball and bringing players into play. Time will tell though and I'd love to be wrong come tomorrow evening.

Would be great to see Blind start at DM so we aren't forced into a load of changes, and hopefully he makes it.

LeeJM

Just out of interest does anybody think there's even a small possibility of Wilson starting instead of Falcao/RVP?

Kalel

Not sure we should move Fellani from where he has been playing as he seriously helps our attack down the left and not sure he has the calmness in passing that is required in Carricks role.
Not sure if we have anyone in the squad that can replace Carrick in his role, maybe Blind could do the job against the lower teams but Chelsea might be a step too far for him especially as he hasn't been playing regularly in that position.
I was really confident of the win before the injuries but that is gone now. Team might be a bit paniciky with those 4 missing. Here's hoping they prove me wrong but at the moment I would be very happy with a draw.

irishfeen

Apparently there are reports from Spanish television station La Sexta that DeGea has agreed to join Real during the summer... god I hope its BS

Mirror running it in England http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/man-uniteds-david-de-gea-5538881

Lithium93_

Oh please let that report be bogus.

Lithium93_

Just gonna leave this here.

The_Kew_Tour

All doom and gloom in here.

If QPR can manage to keep Chelsea to 1 shot on target in 90minutes so can we.

tinofapples

I'm hoping the news of the 4 casualty's for Chelsea are mind games .............. please :-) The loss of Blind and Carrick would seriously upset our rhythm.

bangkok

bangkok wrote: »

I know van gaal doesn't do much bull****, but anyone else think all those players will be available?

normally there is pictures of the players training during the week and there is none this week?

also there didn't seem to be a bother on Blind during the game after that tackle from Kompany...

van gaal playing mourinho at his own tricks?

ha, just as I post that training pictures are released!! we are ****ed

Here's 20 of them: Link

I'd like to think that there's something else at play, but we should brace ourselves for the likelihood that those 4 players are out for tomorrow's game.

Lord TSC

Wtf is a La Sexta? :pac:

LeeJM

Lord TSC wrote: »

Wtf is a La Sexta? :pac:

Its when a senor and a senorita love each other they.............:eek:

MythicalMadMan

Chelsea wont press high, put Fellaini back for Carrick, as that outball to Fellaini will be less effective, get Dimaria on and switch him mata as we will need pace down the wings more than in a compact middle, leave Rooney up top.

Rayne Wooney

Trilla wrote: »

This is what I would like but then your dropping Young, unless you play him left back over Shaw.

Throwing Shaw back into the fray against Chelsea would be crazy I think, Young left back is what I intended

MD1990 wrote: »

I wish u were the manager of Man Utd.

I wished Brendan would be kept on as Liverpool manager, sometimes wishes come through

Sand

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Throwing Shaw back into the fray against Chelsea would be crazy I think, Young left back is what I intended

He played twice against them last season and earlier this season at the Old Trafford game. The club spent 30 million on him for a reason. He ought be trusted to step in as a backup left back at the very least. If hes low on confidence, the management not even having that trust in him would finish it off.

Rayne Wooney

Sand wrote: »

He played twice against them last season and earlier this season at the Old Trafford game. The club spent 30 million on him for a reason. He ought be trusted to step in as a backup left back at the very least. If hes low on confidence, the management not even having that trust in him would finish it off.

His last appearance is over a month ago and the last time he played 90 minutes was the 8th of February, if I was picking the team for Chelsea away I don't think I would start him given he's only coming back


Just noticed he was on the team that looked full of likely starters in the 11 v 11 game in training so he might start him, Smalling was on the other team though so it's not concrete