Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/3

bangkok

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Don't know if you're blinded by your hatred of him and can't see through his fro but They play for the same team.
Rooney has probably seen fellainis dr.manhattens penis

I don't hate fellaini, I just don't rate him, big difference

Pro. F

Mitch Connor wrote: »

For somone paid the wages he is, and billed as a world class player, his form dips way too much, to the point where he is ok/average/poor more often than he is the best player on the pitch - which he really should be.

Criticism of his passing and control of the ball are very valid criticisms - and are important aspects when he is either playing as a creative player off the front man or as the lone striker. He loses the ball in the tight spots we need him to retain it in. Also, his long, accurate ping to the wing looks great but a lot of the time a more creative pass inside would be of greater benift to the side.

In terms of being involved in the game and making possession stick up top (rather than giving it away cheaply) consistently, Rooney is among the best in the world.

This idea that he has more games than most top strikers where he gives the ball away cheaply is a myth.

MythicalMadMan

bucketybuck wrote: »

Most consistently good outfield player all season? Whats consistent about not even playing for most of the season?

This rush to deify Felliani is as boring as the rush to criticise him. He has played well recently and deserves credit, but no, he is not exactly at world class level or anywhere near it, and there is nothing wrong with being realistic about his role.

I don't want to get into the Fellaini debate but he has played 5th most minutes of our midfielders, behind blind (played a few positions) young (played 2 positions) Angel (played 2-3 positions) and juan mata.

He is ahead of Carrick and Herrea in game time so I dont think its fair to write him off as not having played all season.

Couldnt be arsed to work it out but I'd imagine he is top 2 in minutes played for us in the central areas of the park this season

bucketybuck

MythicalMadMan wrote: »

I don't want to get into the Fellaini debate but he has played 5th most minutes of our midfielders, behind blind (played a few positions) young (played 2 positions) Angel (played 2-3 positions) and juan mata.

He is ahead of Carrick and Herrea in game time so I dont think its fair to write him off as not having played all season.

Couldnt be arsed to work it out but I'd imagine he is top 2 in minutes played for us in the central areas of the park this season

I'm not writing him off at all, I'm just saying that we can't label a player as consistently good all season when he couldn't even get into the team for large swathes of it. Its the very opposite of consistent, and we can judge that independent of the other players.

MythicalMadMan

bucketybuck wrote: »

I'm not writing him off at all, I'm just saying that we can't label a player as consistently good all season when he couldn't even get into the team for large swathes of it. Its the very opposite of consistent, and we can judge that independent of the other players.

Apologies about the writing off bit. I guess my point was we havent had many players that have played a high % of games bar De Gea Rooney and Valencia so can we only judge them players on consistency?

RVP has the 4th highest minutes played with us this season :eek:

Fellaini is our 4th highest scorer

Pro. F

Lord TSC wrote: »

Fair play, you're using the stats so I can completely understand your point of view.

The thing that strikes me as important though is the fact that, as you mention, he often plays second fiddle to players, be it Ronaldo or RVP, and (coincidentally), these years seem to coincide with the years we won the league.

So using what you posted...

07/08 and 08/09 - Rooney plays second fiddle to Ronaldo, but we win the league both years with Ronaldo leading the goalscoring charge for club, coming top scorer and second place scorer in the two seasons.

09/10 - Rooney is our main man and has a great goalscoring record but Chelsea win the league.

10/11 - As you said, contract saga. We win the league, both Berbatov and Hernandez score more in the league than Rooney. Berbatov is joint top scorer in the league.

11/12 - Rooney is second top scorer in the league, once again our main outlet. Once again, we lose the league (City win it).

12/13 - RVP is our main man, and top scorer and we win the league. And by all accounts, Fergie sets it up for Rooney to leave the club.

13/14 - Moyes Era, again, Rooney as main man is great but we have our worst season in PL history.

14/15 - LVG era; Rooney is captain and leader of the team. We come 4th.

Whenever Rooney was our main man up front, we failed to win the league. You have to ask yourself why Fergie seemed ready to get rid of Rooney before he left, why Moyes and LVG always seemed to want to talk of Rooney moving further back the field (be it CAM or CM), and why LVG went after a striker like Falcao when we had Rooney and RVP sitting waiting.

The years Rooney has his biggest returns on goals line up near perfectly with the years the club had it's bigger setbacks. Rooney has never been the top scorer in the league, and yet it's hard to argue he's not paid and held up as one of the greatest strikers in England, despite this fact.

14/15 you are pretending that being the captain is the same as being the main striker. Rooney has played most of the season in midfield.

13/14 You say that Rooney was the main man in Moyes' season, but in fact RVP was played as the furthest forward and Rooney as the 10.

11/12 & 12/13 Rooney scored 27 league goals, United altogether scored 89 league goals and finished on 89 points. Next season RVP comes in, scores 26 league goals, United score 86 and again finish on 89 points. And this is supposed to show that Rooney being the main striker is detrimental to the team?

Giggsy11 dealt with the other seasons in his post.

Cantona's Collars

Pro. F wrote: »

In terms of being involved in the game and making possession stick up top (rather than giving it away cheaply) consistently, Rooney is among the best in the world.

This idea that he has more games than most top strikers where he gives the ball away cheaply is a myth.

When Rooney is good,he's great.When he's bad you may as well have Stephen Hawking on the pitch.

His first touch has never been great,Valencia has a better first touch than him.I often think Rooney is already thinking 3 steps ahead when the ball is played up to him and forgets the basic thing of controlling it before doing anything else.

Pro. F

It used to be that Rooney was written off as not good enough and everybody thought RVP was miles better. Now after two seasons where the team was managed poorly RVP is also being written off as not good enough and posters want Benteke, Lacazette, etc.

The truth of what is going on is that a lot of posters just don't know what a good striker looks like when you watch them closely and so they'll always want the next big thing. The next big thing who they haven't had to watch play every week and so they can imagine that he is something better than what we have, which in reality is two of the best strikers in the league.

Mitch Connor

Liam O wrote: »

I've honestly never seen a player get more unwarranted criticism after having a season like he's had, well maybe Nani. Been the most consistently good outfield player all season and people.

What. The. Hell?

He played 24 minutes, of the loss in the opening game vs Swansea, of the first 6 PL. Played in none of the rest. Played 12 minutes vs Everton. Second half sub vs WEst Brom (got a goal). Did feck all next game vs Chelsea. In the 8 games after christmas he either didn't play or played fairly poorly.

It is only really the Spurs game onwards that he has played well - they are really the only games that have changed peoples mind on him. Spurs, Liverpool and Aston Villa.

To say he has been the most consistently good outfield players ALL SEASON is an absolute joke.

Looking at the entire season I would say the following players have out performed him overall:

De Gea (obviously, though a keeper). Smalling, Rojo, Carrick, Young, Rooney.

In the recent run of form I would also say Herrera has performed better than Fellaini, he just hasn't been as eye catching. Ditto Young. Mata has been just as good and effective as him too during the same resurgence of form/ability we saw up to the Everton game.

Pro. F

zerks wrote: »

When Rooney is good,he's great.When he's bad you may as well have Stephen Hawking on the pitch.

His first touch has never been great,Valencia has a better first touch than him.I often think Rooney is already thinking 3 steps ahead when the ball is played up to him and forgets the basic thing of controlling it before doing anything else.

If you actually compare him to other top strikers you'll find that he is among the best and most consistent strikers going for being involved with the play and keeping possession. You are imagining an issue where there is none.

Robson99

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I don't think his control or vision, his use of the ball in tight spaces, his ability to beat a man, his ability to dictate the tempo of a game etc are good enough to be first choice for United.

I think he can be a very good squad player and an important member of the side depending on tactical use and situational requirements - but I reckon we'd be better served with a player like Pogba in his position, for example. Or Strootman/Vidal at their best, for example.

I want United to be the best, and I don't think Fellaini is of a high enough level with regards to various attributes to be a first choice midfielder in a truly top side (which we are not). His very effective performances should not be forgotten, no. Just as the other 90% of his United career should not be forgotten.

I also think Young is a very good squad player, but not good enough to be first choice for United going forward if we want to win the CL and league. Are you also going to rip on me for that opinion? Young has been a far better performer all season that Fellaini has been, imo.

I would agree the entire team did poorly vs Everton - so his is affected within that. We did fine vs Chelsea and I thought he was poor and ineffective in that game too.

My opinion is that if we played Barcelona or Munich or Madrid, he would not have the speed of thought or movement to keep up with their midfields. Carrick also suffers in such games though his positioning keeps him at an acceptable level for me.

I really don't understand how saying Fellaini is not good enough, in my opinion, to be a first choice player for United going forward. There are very few United players I would say have proven themselves as such. A situation I back with my opinion that we need a right back, a centre back, a winger and maybe a striker along with a midfielder or two.

De Gea (probably leaving)
Smalling (might just be a bright patch)
Rojo (has done very well)
Shaw (Only in the last few appearances)
Herrera (maybe biased, but I love his play style)

They are the only players - playing in a 433 - that I would say have proven themselves to be good enough to be first choice in title winning, cl winning side. Even at that, I would buy a top class CB to take the place of either Rojo or Smalling. I'm not saying all the other players WILL be replaced, but I think they are replacable, while in most cases remaining top options around the squad as either first team regulars or rotational players.

Agree totally with the above, although I would also add Jones to the equation. Hes still only 23 and has plenty of time to develop. Most cbs don't reach their prime till they are 27-30.

I cant understand other posters calling Fellani our best outfield player this season after he having 2 or 3 good games. Sweet divine. Valencia, Young and Smalling have been far more consistent than him and they have had poor games here and there.
Mitch sums him up well. Good squad player but not good enough if we want to become the best in Europe.

As regards Rooney can be brilliant and can dissapear for a few games. But in my mind he will always be a greedy Scouser who held the club to ransom

Mitch Connor

Pro. F wrote: »

The truth of what is going on is that a lot of posters just don't know what a good striker looks like .

Classic Pro. F.

bullvine

I'd rather have Rooney than not have him, he may not have the respect or love that Giggs, Scholes, Keane even Ruud had when they played for United but hes been a great player for the club. Its just unfortunate for him that his contract wrangles plus his two best seasons for United resulted in non-title wins. They weren't his fault though, I can think of plenty of other people who can be blamed for them losses.

adox

homerjay2005 wrote: »

am i??? read my post again

Ha. Apologies. Ignore me I'm old.

The Moldy Gowl

Greedy scouser who held the club to ransom??

Go on, tell us more of your deep ignorant hatred of an area in England on an Irish message board.

Grow up

Cookiemunster

Dortmund have just tweeted that Gundogan won't be extending his contract. Definitely leaving in the summer now.

irishfeen

https://twitter.com/bvb/status/593761883905204225

Maximus Alexander

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Dortmund have just tweeted that Gun Dogs won't be extending his contract. Definitely leaving in the summer now.

FYP

Lithium93_

Voting open for United's End Of Season Awards.

http://www.manutd.com/en/awards

Robson99

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Greedy scouser who held the club to ransom??

Go on, tell us more of your deep ignorant hatred of an area in England on an Irish message board.

Grow up

U my dear boy are the ignorant one. People from Liverpool are called Scousers.Nothing ignorant in that. Rooney is greedy as he has proven. Nothing ignorant there.

Closet scouse supporter are you??? I am so sorry

Liam O

Mitch Connor wrote: »

What. The. Hell?

He played 24 minutes, of the loss in the opening game vs Swansea, of the first 6 PL. Played in none of the rest. Played 12 minutes vs Everton. Second half sub vs WEst Brom (got a goal). Did feck all next game vs Chelsea. In the 8 games after christmas he either didn't play or played fairly poorly.

It is only really the Spurs game onwards that he has played well - they are really the only games that have changed peoples mind on him. Spurs, Liverpool and Aston Villa.

To say he has been the most consistently good outfield players ALL SEASON is an absolute joke.

Looking at the entire season I would say the following players have out performed him overall:

De Gea (obviously, though a keeper). Smalling, Rojo, Carrick, Young, Rooney.

In the recent run of form I would also say Herrera has performed better than Fellaini, he just hasn't been as eye catching. Ditto Young. Mata has been just as good and effective as him too during the same resurgence of form/ability we saw up to the Everton game.

what about the winning run earlier in the season? Should we just goldfish that too? Young has only made a telling difference in 2 games this year. Mata is great, but we know that. United's best performances and runs of performances of the season have had one thing in common, Marouane Fellaini. I don't see how you can dispute that.

irishfeen

https://twitter.com/bvb/status/593761883905204225

ElChe32

Cry havoc and let slip the Gun Dog's of war!

Mitch Connor

Liam O wrote: »

what about the winning run earlier in the season? Should we just goldfish that too? Young has only made a telling difference in 2 games this year. Mata is great, but we know that. United's best performances and runs of performances of the season have had one thing in common, Marouane Fellaini. I don't see how you can dispute that.

Young has been a solid performer, playing out of position for most of the season and doing a solid job for us. Making a telling difference or not, it was more than Fellaini was doing in most games.

You said he was consistently the best performing outfield player.

For about 45% of the game he either didn't play or played poorly and I certainly don't remember him being the key player and standout performer in our October-December play. I don't remember people screaming out him being out of the side for 8 games at the turn of the year even though he had turned into, apparently, our key player.

The Moldy Gowl

Robson99 wrote: »

U my dear boy are the ignorant one. People from Liverpool are called Scousers.Nothing ignorant in that. Rooney is greedy as he has proven. Nothing ignorant there.

Closet scouse supporter are you??? I am so sorry

Oh my dearest chum.

By saying a greedy scouse you are giving a negative conoctation to that area.
You're right, it's an adjective but you are using negatively.

No I'm not and have never been. It just busts my chops when people use ignorant generalisations. Really makes me think their logic is stupid for disliking someone.

bangkok

Lithium93_ wrote: »

Voting open for United's End Of Season Awards.

http://www.manutd.com/en/awards

de gea has it wrapped up already

irishfeen

Delaney going against United signing him -

https://twitter.com/migueldelaney/status/593770636511698944

bangkok

Liam O wrote: »

what about the winning run earlier in the season? Should we just goldfish that too? Young has only made a telling difference in 2 games this year. Mata is great, but we know that. United's best performances and runs of performances of the season have had one thing in common, Marouane Fellaini. Ander Herrera I don't see how you can dispute that.

fyp

Rayne Wooney

If Bayern want him I can't see him going anywhere else

Robson99

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Oh my dearest chum.

By saying a greedy scouse you are giving a negative conoctation to that area.
You're right, it's an adjective but you are using negatively.

No I'm not and have never been. It just busts my chops when people use ignorant generalisations. Really makes me think their logic is stupid for disliking someone.

Then I suggest you sit down, take a few deep breaths , count to ten, maybe have a glass of water and then hopefully your chops will be ok

bangkok

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

If Bayern want him I can't see him going anywhere else

will he get his game at Bayern? I think he will go to Juventus when Pogba goes to wherever

MythicalMadMan

TBF this season has been all over the place but Fellaini started many games just after the start of the season which coincidened with our first winning streak of the season, I seem to remember him having good games against chelsea and city in a deeper role than he is playing now.

He got dropped or injured when the rooney experiment started but was brought on in a few games to launch balls to in te last few minutes (not is fault only doing wat was asked of him)

Brought back in to the team with the switch to (433 4141) and was instrumental along with others in the winning streak that took us from bookies outsiders for top 4 (by a few ticks) to big favorites we are now.

Saying he as only played an important role in a few games is doing im a big disservice in my opinion..

Next season I think we can improve on him in certain games like when teams defend deep but he is such a weapon to have when teams press us high, long pass, chest ball out to the wing is the fastest controlled counter attack possible and we own possibly the only player in the world capable of this. We should feel blessed.

Games in which Fellaini started 20 G 15W 2D 3L a 75% win rate or a 85% no lose rate

MagicIRL

Let the Gun Dog IN THE KNOW, FLOW

TRANSFERS, BABY!

The Moldy Gowl

Robson99 wrote: »

Then I suggest you sit down, take a few deep breaths , count to ten, maybe have a glass of water and then hopefully your chops will be ok

My chops have been marinating in crankiness for a few years.

Mitch Connor

MythicalMadMan wrote: »

TBF this season has been all over the place but Fellaini started many games just after the start of the season which coincidened with our first winning streak of the season, I seem to remember him having good games against chelsea and city in a deeper role than he is playing now.

He got dropped or injured when the rooney experiment started but was brought on in a few games to launch balls to in te last few minutes (not is fault only doing wat was asked of him)

Brought back in to the team with the switch to (433 4141) and was instrumental along with others in the winning streak that took us from bookies outsiders for top 4 (by a few ticks) to big favorites we are now.

Saying he as only played an important role in a few games is doing im a big disservice in my opinion..

Next season I think we can improve on him in certain games like when teams defend deep but he is such a weapon to have when teams press us high, long pass, chest ball out to the wing is the fastest controlled counter attack possible and we own possibly the only player in the world capable of this. We should feel blessed.

Yes, he played an important role in earlier games - a good man-marking job on Fabregas vs Cheslea for example.

My issue is with saying he has been our most consistent outfield player all season. I simply don't think that is near true. He was a key player in the wins vs Spurs, Liverpool and Villa, but in the majoiry of other games I wouldn't think he did more than a job, rather than being the best outfield player on the pitch.

I'm not saying he is rubbish and should be sold. it is simply my opinion that if we are to win the title, or more specifically the CL, I think we need a different player in that role. I don't think his skillsets are enough to be first choice vs Madrid, Barca, Munich and for us to have a good chance at winning. I think he can be a great squad player, a great situational player. Same as with another few players at the club, they are good players and important to retain, but I simply don't see them as undroppable, irreplaceble players of the season. Young being my go to example as I feel he, more so than Fellaini, has redeemed himself over the majority of the season.

bangkok

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Yes, he played an important role in earlier games - a good man-marking job on Fabregas vs Cheslea for example.

My issue is with saying he has been our most consistent outfield player all season. I simply don't think that is near true. He was a key player in the wins vs Spurs, Liverpool and Villa, but in the majoiry of other games I wouldn't think he did more than a job, rather than being the best outfield player on the pitch.

I'm not saying he is rubbish and should be sold. it is simply my opinion that if we are to win the title, or more specifically the CL, I think we need a different player in that role. I don't think his skillsets are enough to be first choice vs Madrid, Barca, Munich and for us to have a good chance at winning. I think he can be a great squad player, a great situational player. Same as with another few players at the club, they are good players and important to retain, but I simply don't see them as undroppable, irreplaceble players of the season. Young being my go to example as I feel he, more so than Fellaini, has redeemed himself over the majority of the season.

wouldn't say he was even key player in the Liverpool win, he was average at best. carrick, blind, smalling, mata and Herrera all performed much better on the day

MythicalMadMan

bangkok wrote: »

he was average at best

Could you explain a little more about the how you assign a range to a players performance in any given match i.e you say at best he was average what was he at worst?

After could you explain the parametres for deciding when and why you would say at best over at worst and visa versa

bangkok

MythicalMadMan wrote: »

Could you explain a little more about the how you assign a range to a players performance in any given match i.e you say at best he was average what was he at worst?

After could you explain the parametres for deciding when and why you would say at best over at worst and visa versa

I would have given him a 6 out of 10 for that game. Same game I would have given Mata a 9 out of 10. Carrick and Herrera an 8 out of 10 and smalling a 7.

how he was involved in the game, his affect on the result. good passes made, tackles won, etc etc. Watch the game again if you want, he did nothing of note

MythicalMadMan

bangkok wrote: »

I would have given him a 6 out of 10 for that game. Same game I would have given Mata a 9 out of 10. Carrick and Herrera an 8 out of 10 and smalling a 7.

how he was involved in the game, his affect on the result. good passes made, tackles won, etc etc. Watch the game again if you want, he did nothing of note

That didnt answer anything I asked but thanks anyways

bangkok

MythicalMadMan wrote: »

That didnt answer anything I asked but thanks anyways

at the end of the day he was average in the game

The Moldy Gowl

bangkok wrote: »

at the end of the day he was average in the game

Average compared to what?? Still makes him better than half the team if he is average?

bangkok

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Average compared to what?? Still makes him better than half the team if he is average?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/11488523/Liverpool-vs-Manchester-United-player-ratings.html

there are player ratings from that game from a good newspaper. They have fellaini a 6 and rooney a 4 also gave mata a 9

Vic Vinegar

bangkok wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/11488523/Liverpool-vs-Manchester-United-player-ratings.html

there are player ratings from that game from a good newspaper. They have fellaini a 6 and rooney a 4 also gave mata a 9

Well, that solves that then!

Case closed.

RobertKK

Am I the only one who thinks United will buy two centre backs this summer?

Evans will be sold in my opinion.
Smalling is our best defender.
Jones and Rojo seems very injury prone.
McNair lacks experience, but looks very promising.

Liam O

Well if one journalist in the minority from what I can see gave him a 6 against Liverpool I say sell him tomorrow.

Mitch Connor

RobertKK wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks United will buy two centre backs this summer?

Evans will be sold in my opinion.
Smalling is our best defender.
Jones and Rojo seems very injury prone.
McNair lacks experience, but looks very promising.

If we sign Hummels, for example, I don't see a massive issue with a CB group of:

Hummels, Smalling, Jones, Rojo, McNair..

Tuanzebe and Fosu-Mensah are very highly rated at the club too.

I can't see the club signing a second new CB unless we sell someone else. Even loaning McNair, I don't see us signing a 5th choice CB.

Julez

bangkok wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/11488523/Liverpool-vs-Manchester-United-player-ratings.html

there are player ratings from that game from a good newspaper. They have fellaini a 6 and rooney a 4 also gave mata a 9

Gerrard got a 2... what does a man need to do to get a 1?

Liam O

Julez wrote: »

Gerrard got a 2... what does a man need to do to get a 1?

Not be English probably.

irishfeen

Well done Ander! - well deserved.

https://twitter.com/ManUtd/status/593810805776351232

irishfeen

Koeman on Clyne: "We're speaking, but we have to know in 10 days. There is interest."

I presume some interest from United!