Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/3

gosplan

How about Walcott and 20 million?

Lord TSC

homerjay2005 wrote: »

It makes sense to sell for many reasons, esp if it meant signing Bale for instance

I don't see why it's one or the other. It's pretty clear we've the cash now to keep ADM and still get Bale as well. If anything, I think you'll see a 60m level signing once a year now.

Rayne Wooney

As much as I respect Fellaini for what he's done this season I hope he plays a lot less next season, the easy out ball to him is one of the main contributors to our poor play along with the passes out wide

I don't want to see him near an attacking starting position next season

Robson99

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

I mean like what can be done when a team sits 10 players on their box??

Get it wide? Check.
Cross? Get beaten in the air.
Di Maria? Playing crap
Valencia? Valencia.
Long shots? Deflections.
Through balls? Keeper collects.

Playing against those teams is a nightmare.

Doesn't say a lot for our team or manager if we are unable to Break down medicore teams who defend well against us. Calling it parking the bus is an unjust to the weaker teams. Fair play to them. Its our manager thats at fault for not being able to have a plan to break them down.

Will I Amnt

Pro. F wrote: »

If LVG thought that Smalling, Jones, Evans, Rojo and Rafael were all better than they really are then that is five players who he misjudged after having an entire preseason to work with them. If that's the case then I would call that a very poor performance from the manager and I don't see how you could describe it as anything different. From what I remember I was happy to try those selection of CBs (injury concerns and all) if we were going to play a back four, but Van Gaal spent a lot of time trying to get a back three wing-back formation going, which I said we probably wouldn't have enough depth for.

Carrick, Blind, Herrera and Fellaini is an extremely poor selection if you are going to play a formation with three central midfielders.

With regards to what I would have done differently, I would have picked a formation that worked with the players we had and then bought accordingly. What Van Gaal did was dither between several different formations, not get any one that worked properly, and then ended up not having enough depth/quality for any one formation in particular.

I think you're being overly harsh, preseason was pretty much flawless if I remember correctly, not that it's a perfect gauge for performances anyway.

Of course things could have been done better but it's over simplifying things to say he should have done this or that.
He arrived at a new club, new country, had the likes of Shaw and Herrera basically handed to him as his first signings, would surely have been advised on the players that are the future of the club.

Mourinho couldn't get his squad sorted out in one window last season and he had the experience of managing in the league before.

Robson99

Pro. F wrote: »

What Van Gaal did was dither between several different formations, not get any one that worked properly, and then ended up not having enough depth/quality for any one formation in particular.

LVG has spent the whole season dithering and piss arsing around with formations and players positions and still cant see his mistakes.

I think we have 4 pts more now then this stage last year. Well we should be very thankful to Moyes for not getting us into Europa league because if we were in that then we would be stuck in mid table.

irishfeen

Robson99 wrote: »

LVG has spent the whole season dithering and piss arsing around with formations and players positions and still cant see his mistakes.

I think we have 4 pts more now then this stage last year. Well we should be very thankful to Moyes for not getting us into Europa league because if we were in that then we would be stuck in mid table.

He has definitely made mistakes but we are playing much better then last year and if we didn't have half the fcuking team out injured most weeks we might be slightly better off..

Robson99

irishfeen wrote: »

He has definitely made mistakes but we are playing much better then last year and if we didn't have half the fcuking team out injured most weeks we might be slightly better off..

Moyes had European football to deal with as well injuries last season. As I said if we had to play in the Europa league this season we would be in mid table

irishfeen

Robson99 wrote: »

Moyes had European football to deal with as well injuries last season. As I said if we had to play in the Europa league this season we would be in mid table

Yes but we were playing absolutely cack last year... absolutely atrocious and we never had performances like City, Liverpool, Spurs - even Chelsea. Few players in the summer and we'll be grand. You have too remember too Moyes had Vidic and Evra in that defense - at stages this year we could hardly field a back 4..

homerjay2005

Robson99 wrote: »

LVG has spent the whole season dithering and piss arsing around with formations and players positions and still cant see his mistakes.

I think we have 4 pts more now then this stage last year. Well we should be very thankful to Moyes for not getting us into Europa league because if we were in that then we would be stuck in mid table.

I just checked, it's 5 points more....that is absolutely shocking. 6 New players, a world class management team and we got rid of most of our sh*t players.

The main reason we are still 4th is due to the fact that Liverpool,Spurs and Everton have been decimated by the after effects of European football.

Robson99

irishfeen wrote: »

Yes but we were playing absolutely cack last year... absolutely atrocious and we never had performances like City, Liverpool, Spurs - even Chelsea. Few players in the summer and we'll be grand. You have too remember too Moyes had Vidic and Evra in that defense - at stages this year we could hardly field a back 4..

He didnt have Shaw or Rojo. He didn't have Di Maria, Herrera or Falcao either.
We have been atrocious at various stages this season also.

Robson99

homerjay2005 wrote: »

I just checked, it's 5 points more....that is absolutely shocking. 6 New players, a world class management team and we got rid of most of our sh*t players.

The main reason we are still 4th is due to the fact that Liverpool,Spurs and Everton have been decimated by the after effects of European football.

Ya it could be 5 homer. If Liverpool or spurs weren't in Europe then they would be both above us. I wasn't a fan of Moyes, but the a#se licking LVG is getting here is laughable.

irishfeen

homerjay2005 wrote: »

I just checked, it's 5 points more....that is absolutely shocking. 6 New players, a world class management team and we got rid of most of our sh*t players.

The main reason we are still 4th is due to the fact that Liverpool,Spurs and Everton have been decimated by the after effects of European football.

6 new players yes but the fact that Paddy McNair has played in 15 games and Tyler Blackett 10 is telling... then given the fact that Evans/Jones/Rojo/Shaw can't stay fit means we are always up against it.

homerjay2005

irishfeen wrote: »

Yes but we were playing absolutely cack last year... absolutely atrocious and we never had performances like City, Liverpool, Spurs - even Chelsea. Few players in the summer and we'll be grand. You have too remember too Moyes had Vidic and Evra in that defense - at stages this year we could hardly field a back 4..

The good spell we had against spurs Villa, city and Liverpool has papered over a season full of s*it football.

Our big game performances are better but our away form is dogsh*t and our performances against the bottom half have been awful.

We also had more goals scored at this stage last season under Moyes and had the best away record in the league....keep in Mind I was Moyes biggest critic from day 1; I'm not bringing these stats up to say moyes was great, I'm just using them for fair comparison that LVG hasn't done much better considering the resources he has had.

irishfeen

Robson99 wrote: »

He didnt have Shaw or Rojo. He didn't have Di Maria, Herrera or Falcao either.
We have been atrocious at various stages this season also.

I totally agree but even a blind man could be things are slowly but surely taking shape ... 65-70%+ possession in most games is clear evidence of this.

Our main problem at the minute is breaking down park the bus teams because the likes of Valencia just can't open teams up.

Lord TSC

So would you see LVG gone then, homer? Genuine question. You were vocal about Moyes getting the sack, so if you think LVG hasn't done much better, do you want to see him gone too?

homerjay2005

irishfeen wrote: »

I totally agree but even a blind man could be things are slowly but surely taking shape ... 65-70%+ possession in most games is clear evidence of this.

Our main problem at the minute is breaking down park the bus teams because the likes of Valencia just can't open teams up.

And despite the fact that Valencia has cost us many points this season, the manager keep picking him and left our best RB to waste away on the bench all season.

Will I Amnt

Don't know how many times it has to be said but Moyes took over a league winning team that should have been going into the season full of confidence without having to change too much tactically. LvG is rebuilding a team that finished 7th, there's so much change its incomparable, a whole new "philosophy" to adapt to.

irishfeen

homerjay2005 wrote: »

The good spell we had against spurs Villa, city and Liverpool has papered over a season full of s*it football.

Our big game performances are better but our away form is dogsh*t and our performances against the bottom half have been awful.

We also had more goals scored at this stage last season under Moyes and had the best away record in the league....keep in Mind I was Moyes biggest critic from day 1; I'm not bringing these stats up to say moyes was great, I'm just using them for fair comparison that LVG hasn't done much better considering the resources he has had.

But what do you propose to do? I know we haven't been great either but I am absolutely certain that LVG will get things right with time..

I was the other end of the spectrum on Moyes - I wanted him to be given this season but I even had to admit there was just no glimmer of hope in terms of our playing style, not to mention results... it really was lump the ball up stuff and about 10,000 crosses per match - absolutely no guile/class whatsoever.

duffman13

Robson99 wrote: »

Ya it could be 5 homer. If Liverpool or spurs weren't in Europe then they would be both above us. I want a fan of Moyes, but the a#se licking LVG is getting here is laughable.

Liverpool and Spurs have been crap all season, we have been crap for a good chunk too. There is no chance of a bit of middle ground on this thread. We were terrible at the start of the season and it was going to take 5 years to get to the top table again.

A few decent results and we are gonna get second handy (hopefully Chelsea slip up etc) A couple of bad results intertwined with some decent performances and suddenly we are muck again.

Let's be realistic, almost any united fan would take 4th at the start of the season as we try to build back again. We are in 4th, 4 points ahead with three games to go. To say LVG is getting an arse licking is laughable. He has consistently been questioned with some of his tactical and personnel desicions by plenty on here and in the media. He is a very good manager, is he passed his best or outdated? We will find out over the next two seasons! He has done a reasonably good job IMO but not spectacular.

homerjay2005

Lord TSC wrote: »

So would you see LVG gone then, homer? Genuine question. You were vocal about Moyes getting the sack, so if you think LVG hasn't done much better, do you want to see him gone too?

No I don't as there is nothing to be gained from sacking him now.

He needs to take his head out of his a*s though and start doing what's good for the club and not himself.

adox

Moyes also took over a league winning team and had that for his season.

Van Gaal took over a club in turmoil, cleared out a load of players for various reasons and now has a starting 11 where more than half you could say are in their first season.

The various formations were due to a large extent, injuries. He has consistently said he will play 433 when he has the players available.

Sure he has made some baffling decisions and mistakes but let's not lose the run of ourselves with the criticism.


Also the Moyes comparisons aren't in any way a fair comparison. It's baffling that people can't see that.

Robson99

irishfeen wrote: »

I totally agree but even a blind man could be things are slowly but surely taking shape ... 65-70%+ possession in most games is clear evidence of this.

Our main problem at the minute is breaking down park the bus teams because the likes of Valencia just can't open teams up.

Valencia is our full back. There are 5 attacking players in front of him who have more responsibility for opening teams up. Blind Shaw and rojo have hardly set the world alight on the left side have they. But don't blame the manager. Blame Valencia.

70%possession is fu*k all good if you cant break down teams at the bottom of the league.

irishfeen

homerjay2005 wrote: »

And despite the fact that Valencia has cost us many points this season, the manager keep picking him and left our best RB to waste away on the bench all season.

I loved Rafael but Jesus you could see why LVG might not fancy him - he was a liability at times... I think this summer LVG will sort out RB and Valencia...

irishfeen

homerjay2005 wrote: »

No I don't as there is nothing to be gained from sacking him now.

He needs to take his head out of his a*s though and start doing what's good for the club and not himself.

Well like you hardly think LVG is happy about these results... what would you change? who would you drop?.. Di Maria can't kick the ball and half the team is out injured.

LVG will get it right!

Liam O

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Don't know how many times it has to be said but Moyes took over a league winning team that should have been going into the season full of confidence without having to change too much tactically. LvG is rebuilding a team that finished 7th, there's so much change its incomparable, a whole new "philosophy" to adapt to.

Moyes took over a team that one player carried over the line and was injured/declined a lot after that season. Vidic, Ferdinand and Evra were all past it and Woodward dropped the ball with a lot of Moyes' targets. You can't say how good Moyes' team was and how bad LVGs was, there are 2 players in the difference from when both took over and LVG got 6 extra players on top of that.

homerjay2005

irishfeen wrote: »

I loved Rafael but Jesus you could see why LVG might not fancy him - he was a liability at times... I think this summer LVG will sort out RB and Valencia...

Really???

Valencia is a disaster waiting to happen all season and unfortunately in a lot of games recently, it has happened.

Robson99

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Don't know how many times it has to be said but Moyes took over a league winning team that should have been going into the season full of confidence without having to change too much tactically. LvG is rebuilding a team that finished 7th, there's so much change its incomparable, a whole new "philosophy" to adapt to.

If and the case surely LVG had only a small bit of tweeking to do after Moyes left. After all it was only a season before that they won the league.

irishfeen

Robson99 wrote: »

Valencia is our full back. There are 5 attacking players in front of him who have more responsibility for opening teams up. Blind Shaw and rojo have hardly set the world alight on the left side have they. But don't blame the manager. Blame Valencia.

70%possession is fu*k all good if you cant break down teams at the bottom of the league.

But that will change with time.. the building blocks are being set in place... Can you not see this??

homerjay2005

homerjay2005 wrote: »

No I don't as there is nothing to be gained from sacking him now.

He needs to take his head out of his a*s though and start doing what's good for the club and not himself.

Agree to an extent, he has made stupid decisions that have cost us automatic cl qualification IMO

Specifically some rather strange or rather outright crazy substitutions mid game, and also the constant shoehorning of players into incorrect positions.

He has had awful bad luck with injuries which sometimes has forced his hand but it doesn't excuse some of his outright stubborn behaviour in relation to his strict tactics.

irishfeen

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Really???

Valencia is a disaster waiting to happen all season and unfortunately in a lot of games recently, it has happened.

Yeah I agree but Rafael is out for the season anyway so it won't change now anyway.

Will I Amnt

Liam O wrote: »

Moyes took over a team that one player carried over the line and was injured/declined a lot after that season. Vidic, Ferdinand and Evra were all past it and Woodward dropped the ball with a lot of Moyes' targets. You can't say how good Moyes' team was and how bad LVGs was, there are 2 players in the difference from when both took over and LVG got 6 extra players on top of that.

There's a few things I won't do on this forum, one of them is argue with you over David Moyes :pac:

irishfeen

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Agree to an extent, he has made stupid decisions that have cost us automatic cl qualification IMO

Specifically some rather strange or rather outright crazy substitutions mid game, and also the constant shoehorning of players into incorrect positions.

He has had awful bad luck with injuries which sometimes has forced his hand but it doesn't excuse some of his outright stubborn behaviour in relation to his strict tactics.

But that's what makes the man that is Louis van Gaal - probably why he has been so successful. We all knew what we were getting when he signed, he will eventually weed out the players not willing to keep to his philosophy and mold the rest or sign ones that will.

irishfeen

irishfeen wrote: »

But that's what makes the man that is Louis van Gaal - probably why he has been so successful. We all knew what we were getting when he signed, he will eventually weed out the players not willing to keep to his philosophy and mold the rest or sign ones that will.

I hope he weeds it out in the next week or we are ****ed

I haven't been this worried about an away match to palace in years

Robson99

irishfeen wrote: »

But that will change with time.. the building blocks are being set in place... Can you not see this??

Yes our possession game has improved. But our goal scoring as regressed. Moving Rooney back to mid field time and time again is one step forward two steps back stuff. Ditto with putting Fellani up front.
Ditto with giving Di Maria 15 mins at the end of games and expecting miracles. Play him from the start and give him a chance to get his confidence back. The game last sat was ideal to start Di Maria and keep Rooney up top

irishfeen

adox wrote: »

Moyes also took over a league winning team and had that for his season.

Van Gaal took over a club in turmoil, cleared out a load of players for various reasons and now has a starting 11 where more than half you could say are in their first season.

The various formations were due to a large extent, injuries. He has consistently said he will play 433 when he has the players available.

Sure he has made some baffling decisions and mistakes but let's not lose the run of ourselves with the criticism.


Also the Moyes comparisons aren't in any way a fair comparison. It's baffling that people can't see that.

Totally agree adox ...people seem to forget how big a job LVG had. Champions League qualification would be a brilliant season from last years mess - lets not get ahead of ourselves... Chelsea, Arsenal & City are still well out on front of us in terms of settled teams and depth of squad.

irishfeen

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I hope he weeds it out in the next week or we are ****ed

I haven't been this worried about an away match to palace in years

Whether or not we qualify for the CL doesn't really make a difference in terms of where LVG's taking us... rightly or wrongly he will do it his way whatever happens.

homerjay2005

irishfeen wrote: »

Yeah I agree but Rafael is out for the season anyway so it won't change now anyway.

Injured because he was forced to play for the u-21...because he wasn't being selected and needed game time.

irishfeen

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Injured because he was forced to play for the u-21...because he wasn't being selected and needed game time.

Don't worry I agree with your point but I can understand why LVG might not trust Rafael.

irishfeen

irishfeen wrote: »

Totally agree adox ...people seem to forget how big a job LVG had. Champions League qualification would be a brilliant season from last years mess - lets not get ahead of ourselves... Chelsea, Arsenal & City are still well out on front of us in terms of settled teams and depth of squad.

I don't think anyone is getting ahead of themselves but as a long life fan I expect us to get into CL full stop

Two years without CL is unheard of for us

And as a business UTD cannot be two years out of Europe....another full stop

Whatsisname

However stupid it may sound, Jamie Vardy essentially ruined Rafael's United career. Was never a penalty and nobody will convince me otherwise. It physically pains me to see Valencia start every game.

irishfeen

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I don't think anyone is getting ahead of themselves but as a long life fan I expect us to get into CL full stop

Two years without CL is unheard of for us

And as a business UTD cannot be two years out of Europe....another full stop

Well we don't have a god given right to win the PL or be among the best 4 teams in England, that's what we are trying to build again - the changes at United over the last 2 years in terms of players even has been absolutely staggering... and Manchester United as a business will still be around with our without Champions League football! FULL STOP!:)

MythicalMadMan

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

As much as I respect Fellaini for what he's done this season I hope he plays a lot less next season, the easy out ball to him is one of the main contributors to our poor play along with the passes out wide

I don't want to see him near an attacking starting position next season

The easy out ball has nothing to do with our bad play cause we dont use it against teams that sit deep, we use it when teams press us high as it can set up a quick counter.

He was one of the main catalysts in attack on our run when playing teams that didnt park the bus.

The Moldy Gowl

Robson99 wrote: »

Doesn't say a lot for our team or manager if we are unable to Break down medicore teams who defend well against us. Calling it parking the bus is an unjust to the weaker teams. Fair play to them. Its our manager thats at fault for not being able to have a plan to break them down.

I think this whole 'breaking down teams' is a bit of a cliche. What does it mean exactly.
You say mediocre teams but they are in the premiership and extremely talented footballers to be playing at that level, they weren't picked up outside the pub missing a pair of boots.
Yes I fully accept that utd should be beating these teams with ease, but it's also a disservice to write off teams as well.
There game plan was to cut down all space around the box and play defensive. Players at that level of the game rarely have massive brain farts and know what is expected of them.

I know it's very easy to critisise players and say they are rubbish sitting on the couch. We lost because we didn't take our chances and the finishing was poor. We had 26 shots. 26.
What could lvg have done to make them finish better, or change that instinctive split second decision the players will make?
I can't think of anything.

Pro. F

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I think you're being overly harsh, preseason was pretty much flawless if I remember correctly, not that it's a perfect gauge for performances anyway.

Of course things could have been done better but it's over simplifying things to say he should have done this or that.
He arrived at a new club, new country, had the likes of Shaw and Herrera basically handed to him as his first signings, would surely have been advised on the players that are the future of the club.

Mourinho couldn't get his squad sorted out in one window last season and he had the experience of managing in the league before.

During the preseason the manager has endless video to watch; he trains the players every day; travels with them; talks to them and gets to watch them play games. If after all that LVG made an incorrect judgement on five of his defenders then he did a poor job.

I wouldn't be expecting a new manager to get his squad sorted in one window. But I would expect a new manager to have a formation chosen and transfer strategy that builds towards it before the summer window closes.

As I said, this is all with the assumption that LVG was in charge of transfers. And if he wasn't then my criticisms are for whoever was calling the shots. But that's not really relevant anyway, because what I'm disagreeing with are the claims that our transfers last summer were good and that nobody could have seen the problems with the make-up of the squad that was put together.

MythicalMadMan

homerjay2005 wrote: »

The main reason we are still 4th is due to the fact that Liverpool,Spurs and Everton have been decimated by the after effects of European football.

I'd be interesting in knowing how many points these teams dropped after playing in the uefa cup in there next games?

homerjay2005 wrote: »

No I don't as there is nothing to be gained from sacking him now.

He needs to take his head out of his a*s though and start doing what's good for the club and not himself.

what does this even mean? what is he doing that benefits only himself. Sitting on the bench too much instead of running up and down the line. Its hard to run up and down the line with ur head up your arse tbf

The_Kew_Tour

MythicalMadMan wrote: »

I'd be interesting in knowing how many points these teams dropped after playing in the uefa cup in there next games?



what does this even mean? what is he doing that benefits only himself. Sitting on the bench too much instead of running up and down the line. Its hard to run up and down the line with ur head up your arse tbf

Liverpool 11 points after playing a game midweek.
Spurs 17 points

Pro. F

irishfeen wrote: »

Totally agree adox ...people seem to forget how big a job LVG had. Champions League qualification would be a brilliant season from last years mess - lets not get ahead of ourselves... Chelsea, Arsenal & City are still well out on front of us in terms of settled teams and depth of squad.

Lol at limping into a fourth place finish being described as a brilliant season now.

Rayne Wooney

People tend to massively overstate Moyes' failings and understate LVG's


LVG has seriously underperfomed, I'd go as far as saying finishing 5th which we are not far off would be just as bad as Moyes' run weighing up the each season and the variables that go with them.

MythicalMadMan

Robson99 wrote: »

But our goal scoring as regressed.

LOL 1 goal less, actually when did moyes get sacked again it was after the everton game so he was in charge for 34 games and we scored 56 goals after 34 LVG had 59. So i guess you are wrong but sure dont let facts get in the way of a bit of manager bashing.

Also our goal diff after 34 is 8 goals better so that shows major improvement a 50% one no less :eek::eek::eek::eek: