Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/3

ericzeking

I think it's not a completely mad stretch of the imagination to think that players like TC23 and Ando could do well in the current set up.

Sunday, and in the first half in particular, was about as clear an example as I can imagine of the team playing to the LVG system, a system that is more important than the individual parts...everything was so clear, the positions players took up, the movements, the options taken and all with a purpose.

A good technical player could function in that, he doesn't have to be a world beater just do what is expected.

The interview before the game was very insightful where LVG was talking about triangles all over the pitch in the preferred 433 formation and then the subsequent comments from Ander....

It's all so clear to me now.....Halleluja!

jayo26

Cant believe cleverly is even been mentioned its because of giving him and players like Anderson too much time at the club is why players like pogba missed out and ended up leaving before been given a decent chance maybe too a lesser extent cleverly because he did show some potential back then but he didn't build on it so he is nowhere near the standard we have in midfield now and thats saying much,
I don't see him been named man of the match very often in the villa team.

Fakman87

Your Airbag wrote: »

This period of play often gets brought up by Clev and Ando defenders as if we played some amazing intricate possession ball in the middle of the park.

It's a complete myth, it never happened. We played well against poor opposition and knocked the ball about reasonably well as you would expect against poor opposition.

The link up play for Nanis goal against City was nice and their were other moments in the following games. The team was fresh going into the season and Fergie was giving youth a chance.

Nothing more, there was no amazing football where Clev and Ando showed there quality. You judge a player over seasons not 5 games against fodder and a friendly.

People pointing to that time to make a case for Cleverly and Ando are doing so with some serious nostalgia. It was nothing amazing. It was brief periods in those matches from the MF that looked good, the overall team was better, wingers attackers etc.

What we saw Sunday and against Spurs was far superior from our midfeild than it ever was in that 5 period. We controlled tougher oppositon with controlled and calculated passing and poession in high stakes games for long periods.

Clev and Ando would not have been capable, we would have not had two wins had they played those two games.

I can see your point but we beat city 3-2, spurs 3-0, arsenal 8-2 and bolton 5-0 in those games. I'm not a fan of ando but I think that cleverly looked very dynamic, confident and forward thinking at that period, especially since scholes had just retired and we needed a creative midfielder to step up.

It's undeniable that he had a massive drop last season but the majority of the squad did under moyes. I don't think he's near good enough for united at his form of the last 2 years but it would have been nice to give more time and encouragement to a home grown player since we have seen so few of them come through in the last 10 years.

Your Airbag

QuantumP wrote: »

City, Spurs, Arsenal?

Look I'm not arguing Cleverly is good enough for Utd, he's not. But I believe he has enough qualities to have a career at a club significantly better than Aston Villa. That's all. If people disagree then fair enough.

City in a freindly. Spurs were not that great then. The Arsenal team we mauled 8-2 at OT was injury hit and practically a reserve side that went down to ten men. I was in OT that day and believe me Clev and Ando didn't light up the place, they were ok but Arsenal were easy that day.

Pro. F wrote: »

I did not bring the topic of Cleverley back into the thread. MagicIRL did.

And if you are bored by the conversation then why the fùck are you making so many posts about it?

Unforunately its neccesary to stop you pushing your Clev agenda around here. I've never seen such a player widely and rightly regarded as poor defended to the hilt. Clev was not good enough, he is poor and average. Why you persist with trying to say otherwise I don't know.

Liam O

Your Airbag wrote: »

City in a freindly. Spurs were not that great then. The Arsenal team we mauled 8-2 at OT was injury hit and practically a reserve side that went down to ten men. I was in OT that day and believe me Clev and Ando didn't light up the place, they were ok but Arsenal were easy that day.



Unforunately its neccesary to stop you pushing your Clev agenda around here. I've never seen such a player widely and rightly regarded as poor defended to the hilt. Clev was not good enough, he is poor and average. Why you persist with trying to say otherwise I don't know.

Jesus, calm down, having an opinion on a player not everyone agrees with isn't the same as having an agenda.

bucketybuck

Fakman87 wrote: »

It's undeniable that he had a massive drop last season but the majority of the squad did under moyes. I don't think he's near good enough for united at his form of the last 2 years but it would have been nice to give more time and encouragement to a home grown player since we have seen so few of them come through in the last 10 years.

Last season? That 3 game purple patch of his was four years ago, it wasn't just last season that he failed to take his chances.

bucketybuck

ericzeking wrote: »

I think it's not a completely mad stretch of the imagination to think that players like TC23 and Ando could do well in the current set up.

Sunday, and in the first half in particular, was about as clear an example as I can imagine of the team playing to the LVG system, a system that is more important than the individual parts...everything was so clear, the positions players took up, the movements, the options taken and all with a purpose.

A good technical player could function in that, he doesn't have to be a world beater just do what is expected.

Sure, perhaps the system could carry an average player, but why would we want it to? Just get a proper midfielder instead of going back to a lad who got plenty of opportunities but simply wasn't good enough to take them.

bangkok

cleverly is no where near united standard, never has been never will be. He has gone to villa on loan this season and even there he has been poor. If he was that good, he should be excelling at villa but hes not. Fabien Delph is miles ahead of him as a player in the same team

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

Unforunately its neccesary to stop you pushing your Clev agenda around here.

So even though the conversation really bores you are compelled to keep contributing to it. Fair enough.

Your Airbag wrote: »

I've never seen such a player widely and rightly regarded as poor defended to the hilt. Clev was not good enough, he is poor and average. Why you persist with trying to say otherwise I don't know.

Okay. We disagree, as always. Let's leave it.

Your Airbag

Fakman87 wrote: »

I can see your point but we beat city 3-2, spurs 3-0, arsenal 8-2 and bolton 5-0 in those games. I'm not a fan of ando but I think that cleverly looked very dynamic, confident and forward thinking at that period, especially since scholes had just retired and we needed a creative midfielder to step up.

It's undeniable that he had a massive drop last season but the majority of the squad did under moyes. I don't think he's near good enough for united at his form of the last 2 years but it would have been nice to give more time and encouragement to a home grown player since we have seen so few of them come through in the last 10 years.

Clev went off very early in that 5-0 win over Bolton. The entire team had a good head of steam in those games and were putting teams to the sword. The MF played its part but that period has been grossly over estimated as something special in the MF.

Clev had more than enough time, he didn't prove himself because he wasn't good enough.

The quality pass to Mata for the opener on Sunday would have never been done by Clev. He'd never even attempt it. It would have gone back to Fellaini or to Valencia.

I'm glad you don't think he was good enough and I understand the encouragement thing, the abuse he got was uncalled for and completely wrong but Clev had plenty of time to up his game, he never did, I don't think it was lack of effort, just lack of quality.

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

cleverly is no where near united standard, never has been never will be. He has gone to villa on loan this season and even there he has been poor. If he was that good, he should be excelling at villa but hes not. Fabien Delph is miles ahead of him as a player in the same team

Fabian Delph is a good player. I don't agree that he his miles ahead of Cleverley, they're about the same. Two good players, in a decent squad, who've been playing under a poor manager for most of the season.

TheDoc

Just on Cleverly.

He had a torrid time with Villa thus far, but hardly surprising considering the garbage Lambart was peddling.

I watched Villa beat West Brom(cup I think? ) and also against Sunderland. Cleverly was pretty good. Operating as a duo with Delph, he was clearly not getting advanced instructions and was working in tandum with Delph pretty well. He pretty much started most of the attacks that Villa made against Sunderland, and was operating very much box to box.

I discussed before, mostly last season, that Cleverly looked a player a bit lost. When he broke on the scene his instinct was driving and passing forward, and he looked certain to develop as a no.10 He was withdrawn then into a CM role, and then started operating in a more restrained role. I felt it was obvious looking at him under Moyes he was struggling with the role he was given, and it was going against his instincts.

There is no discussion surrounding Cleverly not being good enough last year. That's simply true. But that totally eliminates the potential and ability that is clearly there, that a better coach, system or a position could utilise.

Ashley Young was dead and buried, absolute waster and I couldn't wait for him to leave. New regime, new system, new position and all of a sudden he is flourishing.

Cleverly got some gametime during pre-season, when Van Gaal was pushing a 3-5-2 system. Blind, Hererra and Di Maria all came in, and immediately pushed him down the pecking order.

I don't think it's outrageous to suggest that he could achieve his potential in this 4-3-3 system. We can be too quick to simply disregard players and label them as crap.

Fellaini and Young should be obvious examples of how it's not always that straight forward. If he was recalled and retained for next season, I'd treat it as a clean slate and wish him all the best, as he has some very obvious attributes, that were somewhat stupidly squished throughout three positional changes he went through.

Also, from reading a lot of things about Van Gaal lately, coupled with some material Pro.F has shared from other sites, it doesn't appear Herrera side of midfield is the problem one?

Your Airbag

Liam O wrote: »

Jesus, calm down, having an opinion on a player not everyone agrees with isn't the same as having an agenda.

I disagree and was calmly expressing an opposite opinion? Not sure why it bothers you.

As for agendas I think Prof is on the wind up at times. He makes eyebrow raising statements and has what I find strange opinions such as the Leon Britton one and his hard on for Clev. If he's not on the wind up his judgement of a MF player is inherently flawed.

There fourm is bound to discuss or argue over such opinions. That's part of what its for.

QuantumP

Your Airbag wrote: »

I disagree

:rolleyes:

bucketybuck

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't think it's outrageous to suggest that he could achieve his potential in this 4-3-3 system. We can be too quick to simply disregard players and label them as crap.

Fellaini and Young should be obvious examples of how it's not always that straight forward. If he was recalled and retained for next season, I'd treat it as a clean slate and wish him all the best, as he has some very obvious attributes, that were somewhat stupidly squished throughout three positional changes he went through.

But again, why on earth even go down that road? The lad had four years worth of opportunity and couldn't do it, so why would a top club like United even entertain the idea of giving him another chance? Whats that definition of insanity again?

We have the financial clout to buy pretty much any player in the world, going back to Tom Cleverley in the hope that maybe this time the system will suit him, well, that would be madness.

Maximus Alexander

Your Airbag wrote: »

As for agendas I think Prof is on the wind up at times. He makes eyebrow raising statements and has what I find strange opinions such as the Leon Britton one and his hard on for Clev. If he's not on the wind up his judgement of a MF player is inherently flawed.

Every single one of us hold some minority opinions and make eyebrow raising statements from time to time. I think it's a little harsh to be saying he's on the wind up because you disagree with him to be fair.

Polo_Mint

Anyone know of United Youngsters who would fit into the Squad for next season like McNair, Wilson and Blackett?

Your Airbag

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Every single one of us hold some minority opinions and make eyebrow raising statements from time to time. I think it's a little harsh to be saying he's on the wind up because you disagree with him to be fair.

I said its either that or his judgement of players flawed. When it comes to Clev and the Britton one I can't remember one poster having two such minority opinions at the same time and running page after page of replies.

Bangkok with his Fellaini thing doesn't get close to those yet although we did have SeanBateman whats wanting DDG gone for a long time but that was just one.

Maximus Alexander

Your Airbag wrote: »

I said its either that or his judgement of players flawed. When it comes to Clev and the Britton one I can't remember one poster having two such minority opinions at the same time and running page after page of replies.

Bangkok with his Fellaini thing doesn't get close to those yet although we did have SeanBateman whats wanting DDG gone for a long time but that was just one.

I'm not having a go at you. If anything I'd be somewhere between the two of you. I think Pro. F flatters Cleverley a lot, while I think you're quite harsh on him. I also don't think either of you are on the wind up.

TheDoc

bucketybuck wrote: »

But again, why on earth even go down that road? The lad had four years worth of opportunity and couldn't do it, so why would a top club like United even entertain the idea of giving him another chance? Whats that definition of insanity again?

We have the financial clout to buy pretty much any player in the world, going back to Tom Cleverley in the hope that maybe this time the system will suit him, well, that would be madness.

I assume the idea to entertain is there as a finalized transfer wasn't completed.

Cleverly's stock was simply not worth anything start of this season. Horrendous domestic campaign, public enemy number 1, cast out of England squad.

Cleverly could easily have been bought for less then €10m and United would have been rid.

I don't know the specifics around the financials and if maybe Villa couldn't afford it or something, but maybe, like Nani, it was a decision to send the player away from the year, out of the spotlight, and regain some form and confidence, to be re-evaluated next full pre-season.

Cleverly hasn't got a mention in here, until today. And quietly in recent weeks been putting some good performances in.

Granted plenty here are keeping tabs on Nani, but when you read so many articles or comments from pundits about "Summer signings" there is constant reference to the right hand side, with plenty forgetting Nani is still on the books.

Wouldn't be overly surprised if after having poor seasons, they were sent out on loan to gain some confidence and form, with a view to re-integration with the squad( which needs to expand) next pre-season.

Just a theory.

But if the club wanted to properly sell Cleverly, there would have been plenty who would have taken him. We rarely make a profit on a player, and typically have to sell at cut prices.

I'm not a massive fan of the fella, and was a fair critic myself, but I've always maintained and outlined here that he has some qualities that weren't being utilised. Stranger things have happen, so I wouldn't write him off totally, even though it's like a less then 5% chance he will return to the club and actually stay at the club.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

Also, from reading a lot of things about Van Gaal lately, coupled with some material Pro.F has shared from other sites, it doesn't appear Herrera side of midfield is the problem one?

Just to be clear, it's Vic Vinegar that deserves the credit for finding that. He linked it first. I linked it again because I thought people might have missed it.

ericzeking

I love minority opinions, they're the interesting ones...the madder the better imo

Why be a sheep?

I don't always agree with with ProF but he's a damn sight more of an interesting read than the one liner 'Fellaini/Young/Valencia/Welbeck/Cleverley/Nani/whoever your having yourself after a bad result is sh!te' posts which are the mainstay of the forum.

The big fella has been nominated for the shortlist for player of the month

And rightly so, would love to see him win it

Shanotheslayer

M!Ck^ wrote: »

The big fella has been nominated for the shortlist for player of the month

And rightly so, would love to see him win it

Have you got a link to the shortlisted players?

Mitch Connor

TheDoc wrote: »

Wouldn't be overly surprised if after having poor seasons, they were sent out on loan to gain some confidence and form, with a view to re-integration with the squad( which needs to expand) next pre-season.

Just a theory.

But if the club wanted to properly sell Cleverly, there would have been plenty who would have taken him. We rarely make a profit on a player, and typically have to sell at cut prices.

I'm not a massive fan of the fella, and was a fair critic myself, but I've always maintained and outlined here that he has some qualities that weren't being utilised. Stranger things have happen, so I wouldn't write him off totally, even though it's like a less then 5% chance he will return to the club and actually stay at the club.

the club wanted to sell him, but they felt the offer Everton made was below what they should accept, so instead of letting him go cheap to Everton he went on loan to Villa with the hope we would be able to sell him to Villa in January, which obv didn't happen.

Think it was being said at the time that United wanted around 7million for him and Everton were offering around 3million.

He will sign for Everton on a free in the summer, I'm certain of it - well as long as Martinez is the manager there - Martinez likes him and Cleveley wants to play for him again after enjoying playing for him at Wigan.

Nalz

ericzeking wrote: »

I love minority opinions, they're the interesting ones...the madder the better imo

Why be a sheep?

You want people not the vent - thats cool, there can be a lot of repetitive and knee jerk reactions sometimes.... but you find twisted logic and blind ignorance to support a player who's been poor for us interesting and refreshing?

I'd rather be a sheep dude. baa baa baa

MagicMarker

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Have you got a link to the shortlisted players?

www.manutd.com

Shanotheslayer

MagicMarker wrote: »

www.manutd.com

Doh, thought it was shortlist for every nominations player of the month not just
United :pac:

Based on those 3 you'd think Fellaini would get it, but after what Mata did in Pool game, who knows.

bangkok

M!Ck^ wrote: »

The big fella has been nominated for the shortlist for player of the month

And rightly so, would love to see him win it

mata will win it, for the 2 goals at anfield alone, but he was also one of the best players on the pitch v spurs

bangkok

TheDoc wrote: »

Just on Cleverly.

He had a torrid time with Villa thus far, but hardly surprising considering the garbage Lambart was peddling.

I watched Villa beat West Brom(cup I think? ) and also against Sunderland. Cleverly was pretty good. Operating as a duo with Delph, he was clearly not getting advanced instructions and was working in tandum with Delph pretty well. He pretty much started most of the attacks that Villa made against Sunderland, and was operating very much box to box.

I discussed before, mostly last season, that Cleverly looked a player a bit lost. When he broke on the scene his instinct was driving and passing forward, and he looked certain to develop as a no.10 He was withdrawn then into a CM role, and then started operating in a more restrained role. I felt it was obvious looking at him under Moyes he was struggling with the role he was given, and it was going against his instincts.

There is no discussion surrounding Cleverly not being good enough last year. That's simply true. But that totally eliminates the potential and ability that is clearly there, that a better coach, system or a position could utilise.

Ashley Young was dead and buried, absolute waster and I couldn't wait for him to leave. New regime, new system, new position and all of a sudden he is flourishing.

Cleverly got some gametime during pre-season, when Van Gaal was pushing a 3-5-2 system. Blind, Hererra and Di Maria all came in, and immediately pushed him down the pecking order.

I don't think it's outrageous to suggest that he could achieve his potential in this 4-3-3 system. We can be too quick to simply disregard players and label them as crap.

Fellaini and Young should be obvious examples of how it's not always that straight forward. If he was recalled and retained for next season, I'd treat it as a clean slate and wish him all the best, as he has some very obvious attributes, that were somewhat stupidly squished throughout three positional changes he went through.

Also, from reading a lot of things about Van Gaal lately, coupled with some material Pro.F has shared from other sites, it doesn't appear Herrera side of midfield is the problem one?

yes but the only thing about that was Ashley Young has shown in the past he was an excellent player, PFA team of the year twice with Villa and won the young PFA player of the year award.

When we signed Young he was a fantastic signing, fast, skilful, british, 2 footed, he was just out of form. cleverly has never shown near what Young has done and never will

Polo_Mint

I always thought Young was a very good player and could beat any player one on one bringing the ball up the pitch but his crossing into the box was terrible. Seems to have improved this season but was still shocking up to Pre Season

Spazdarn

Polo_Mint wrote: »

I always thought Young was a very good player and could beat any player one on one bring the ball up the pitch but his crossing into the box was terrible. Seems to have improved this season but was still shocking up to Pre Season

Felt a bit underwhelmed when we bought Young actually, felt we could have spent the money better elsewhere in Europe. 17m was a lot.

bucketybuck

Polo_Mint wrote: »

I always thought Young was a very good player and could beat any player one on one bring the ball up the pitch but his crossing into the box was terrible. Seems to have improved this season but was still shocking up to Pre Season

His popularity pendulum has swung too far the other way though, he is doing grand in certain ways but still offers pretty much zero attacking threat. 1 goal and 1 assist this season? From 18 PL games. Thats not enough.

M!Ck^

M!Ck^ wrote: »

The big fella has been nominated for the shortlist for player of the month

And rightly so, would love to see him win it

Sorry, just quickly spotted it on SSN when at lunch. Can't get it now will post it later

bangkok

Polo_Mint wrote: »

I always thought Young was a very good player and could beat any player one on one bringing the ball up the pitch but his crossing into the box was terrible. Seems to have improved this season but was still shocking up to Pre Season

he was always a great crosser of the ball, maybe not last season but previous seasons he was one of the best in the league.

at villa he was one of the most fearful wingers in the league

Spazdarn

bucketybuck wrote: »

His popularity pendulum has swung too far the other way though, he is doing grand in certain ways but still offers pretty much zero attacking threat. 1 goal and 1 assist this season? Thats not enough.

His general play is much better though, when you put the ball out left, at the very least you know a dangerous ball is coming into the box... I think when you've got Valencia on the other wing it's bound to make Young look good.

bangkok

bucketybuck wrote: »

His popularity pendulum has swung too far the other way though, he is doing grand in certain ways but still offers pretty much zero attacking threat. 1 goal and 1 assist this season? From 18 PL games. Thats not enough.

fellaini has 4 goals 2 assists and has played the majority of his games up top or as a central attacking midfielder. Young has played most of his games as a wing back

Whatsisname

Pro. F wrote: »

Just to be clear, it's Vic Vinegar that deserves the credit for finding that. He linked it first. I linked it again because I thought people might have missed it.

That was me but okay

Pro. F

Whatsisname wrote: »

That was me but okay

Oh shít sorry! I knew I shouldn't have trusted my memory.

Vic Vinegar

Whatsisname wrote: »

That was me but okay

What are we talking about exactly?

Polo_Mint

Whatsisname wrote: »

That was me but okay

Thepoet85

Don't know if it's been posted yet but it gave me a great laugh :-)

http://sport.bt.com/sport-football/columnists/gerrards-career-dwarfs-giggs-and-scholes-S11363970483156

Liam O

bangkok wrote: »

fellaini has 4 goals 2 assists and has played the majority of his games up top or as a central attacking midfielder. Young has played most of his games as a wing back

Fellaini has played most of his games as one of 2 CMs.

bangkok

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW4Vt1aKt0c

carrick v real Madrid away...class

keane2097

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I think Pro. F flatters Cleverley a lot, while I think you're quite harsh on him.

Cantona's Collars

Thepoet85 wrote: »

Don't know if it's been posted yet but it gave me a great laugh :-)

http://sport.bt.com/sport-football/columnists/gerrards-career-dwarfs-giggs-and-scholes-S11363970483156

The author of that article has gone back to eating his crayons and sticking Lego up his bum.

Nalz

How many of our players are on international duty, is there a link anywhere?

zerks wrote: »

The author of that article has gone back to eating his crayons and sticking Lego up his bum.

love a bitta lego bum fun

jayo26

zerks wrote: »

The author of that article has gone back to eating his crayons and sticking Lego up his bum.

That article is the biggest load of thrash I ever read lol. So if someone does well in a **** team it means they are better then someone playing into their 40s with a championship winning team. Did he ever consider the reason Gerrard was playing so much was because the rest of the Liverpool team were so **** moreso then him been so good.

UnitedIrishman

jayo26 wrote: »

That article is the biggest load of thrash I ever read lol. So if someone does well in a **** team it means they are better then someone playing into their 40s with a championship winning team. Did he ever consider the reason Gerrard was playing so much was because the rest of the Liverpool team were so **** moreso then him been so good.

It's hilarious. Gerrard costs his team with a red card and all of the British journo's - especially ones with scouse sympathies - go on the defensive. The Mirror which panders to Liverpool because it's rival the Sun isn't sold up there - gave Gerrard a 4 in the ratings (to give that some context - De Gea got a 5) and had the headline "I apologise to the fans" despite him not being quoted as saying that in the article at all but merely danced around the word 'sorry'.

You learn to filter out a lot of the nonsense when you know what papers or writers to ignore the opinion of.

MisterAnarchy

Your Airbag wrote: »

This period of play often gets brought up by Clev and Ando defenders as if we played some amazing intricate possession ball in the middle of the park.

It's a complete myth, it never happened. We played well against poor opposition and knocked the ball about reasonably well as you would expect against poor opposition.

It did happen ,and it was some of the best football seen from a Utd side in a long long time.

After being battered by Barcelona in the Champions league final that previous May ,Fergie obviously decided to play a more fluid short passing based game like Barcelona.

It was going very well until injuries broke the pairing up and the quality of football regressed.
Then in November ,Utd lost 6-1 to Man City and Fergie in a knee jerk reaction completely abandoned the more open attacking style of play he had embraced and went back to the more cautious defensive style with Carrick in a deep holding role.

Utd went on a very good defensive run after that loss and whilst it was effective it wasnt very pretty.