Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/3

Vic Vinegar

bucketybuck wrote: »

Not the same situation, Felliani's first touch is usually with his head.

No it's not.

bucketybuck

Vic Vinegar wrote: »

No it's not.

Note, post may not be entirely serious.

TheDoc

bucketybuck wrote: »

Not the same situation, Felliani's first touch is usually with his head.

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

show me clips of pirlo taking the ball with 3 or 4 players around him doing what he wants with it?

I don't make the videos so I'm relying on others to be pick out something that they don't necessarily see as important. Highlight videos mostly focus on passes, goals, set pieces and little bits of dribbling. Sometimes the videos don't even include the first touches at all. Also you need to look at a game where the opposition tried to press, which is rare enough against a team with Pirlo in it. Given all that it's hard to find many examples.

3 or 4 players is a bit of an exaggeration, he only needs to beat one or two to open up the play for his team.

Here's some examples I found for you:

vs Celtic
0:41 (two players closing him quickly and a third close, but a bit further off to the other side of him; kills it with his first touch in such a way that he can slip a pass between the two closest, to a teammate up the pitch)
4:27 (only one player directly in front of him, but the way he kills the ball dropping from the sky is very good)
4:34 (two closing him, not that close yet, but he kills it so that they freeze, before he moves it on to a teammate in space)

vs Liverpool
2:57 (takes two opposition markers out of the game with a kind of Cryuff turn with his first touch)
3:24 (killed a difficult ball perfectly so he could turn the player about to tackle him and draw a foul)

vs Napoli
2:10 (two opposition players close to him and he kills the ball perfectly to keep possession while leaving one behind and dragging the other around a bit)

vs Genoa
2:28 (not that many opposition players on top of him, but arriving in the box at pace and receiving a relatively fast moving ball he shows a silky first touch)

vs Mexico
0:57 (receives a cross at knee height when running into a crowded box and controls it perfectly into his path)

The difference with Pirlo's touch to Carrick's is that he can control the ball exactly where he wants it to be more reliably. That means he can always use his first touch to put himself in a better position before he even makes his second. Whereas Carrick's isn't nearly so reliable, so he ends limiting what he can take on when the space is tight.

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

I don't make the videos so I'm relying on others to be pick out something that they don't necessarily see as important. Highlight videos mostly focus on passes, goals, set pieces and little bits of dribbling. Sometimes the videos don't even include the first touches at all. Also you need to look at a game where the opposition tried to press, which is rare enough against a team with Pirlo in it. Given all that it's hard to find many examples.

3 or 4 players is a bit of an exaggeration, he only needs to beat one or two to open up the play for his team.

Here's some examples I found for you:

vs Celtic
0:41 (two players closing him quickly and a third close, but a bit further off to the other side of him; kills it with his first touch in such a way that he can slip a pass between the two closest, to a teammate up the pitch)
4:27 (only one player directly in front of him, but the way he kills the ball dropping from the sky is very good)
4:34 (two closing him, not that close yet, but he kills it so that they freeze, before he moves it on to a teammate in space)

vs Liverpool
2:57 (takes two opposition markers out of the game with a kind of Cryuff turn with his first touch)
3:24 (killed a difficult ball perfectly so he could turn the player about to tackle him and draw a foul)

vs Napoli
2:10 (two opposition players close to him and he kills the ball perfectly to keep possession while leaving one behind and dragging the other around a bit)

vs Genoa
2:28 (not that many opposition players on top of him, but arriving in the box at pace and receiving a relatively fast moving ball he shows a silky first touch)

vs Mexico
0:57 (receives a cross at knee height when running into a crowded box and controls it perfectly into his path)

The difference with Pirlo's touch to Carrick's is that he can control the ball exactly where he wants it to be more reliably. That means he can always use his first touch to put himself in a better position before he even makes his second. Whereas Carrick's isn't nearly so reliable, so he ends limiting what he can take on when the space is tight.

exactly, same with xavi same with Busquets etc they don't really play games when pressure is put on them but when some teams do, they also struggle...example being Bayern Munich v Barcelona, or man utd when they hammered ac Milan 4-0 and I think it was ji sung park that put pressure on pirlo and he did nothing welbeck when he pushed on Alonso v real madrid totally took him out of the game

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

Why is first touch such an anal issue relating to Carrick?

I'm struggling to remember AT ALL this season where Carrick, or Blind for that matter, was harassed and pressed upon receipt of the ball that it was an actual problem.

Teams this season have been much more comfortable sitting off us deep, inviting us to try break them down, which we for large parts have not been able to do. The change in the last two games however indicates we may be more confident doing so with how offensive play develops.

The positions Carrick receives the ball, means in the event of being pressed he has options with his full backs and his CB's, and is able to shift play and the attack can start from a different flank.

If his first touch or control was such a glaring issue, I'd except teams to target it more and harry him on the ball. Even when this does happen, he normally still makes a succesfull pass.

Struggling to see why it's absorbing so much debate, and if it maybe hasn't been some obscure scenarios or instances blown out of proportion. Blind has had some loose touches in recent memory where he has slipped or something, but I wouldn't exaggerate that to be "he has a rubbish first touch"... as there is enough evidence first half of season and with Ajax last season to show he has a wonderful first touch and body position in receipt of the ball.

If we are talking Falcao first touch then it's a point of arguement / debate, but failing to see what Carricks "perceived" poor touch has to do with anything. If anything I'd consider him to have superb control and touch, as he rarely is caught struggling to hit his pass. He knows where the pass is going on receipt of the ball, and his touch lines him up to do so. As opposed to say a Valencia, where the next pass is an afterthought after the first touch.

First touch is such an issue because his is weak when you compare him to top level DMs. You said he could do for England what Pirlo has done for Italy, not when he's so far short of Pirlo's skill level he can't.

The reason you don't remember Blind and Carrick being harassed off the ball this season has been explained plenty of times. Let's just stick to Carrick for simplicity. English teams rarely press high - they don't hold onto possession well enough to have the energy reserves needed for consistent pressing - so you're going to see Carrick's flaws exposed in English games far less often. Whenever a team does press high Carrick spends a lot of time playing alongside his CBs, or sometimes going further up the pitch past the press looking to receive the ball after someone else has dealt with it. He avoids taking on and beating markers when the opposition are pressing, preferring to look for space and consequently does not do enough to relieve the pressure on his teammates. He's a CM, it's his job to take on the responsibility, but he can't do it.

Passing the ball off to a CB or FB without creating space first (by dragging a marker around and/or beating them) means that the CM is just inviting the pressure onto those other players.

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Lads why have ye decided to get so hung up on his first touch? It's only one aspect. And by the sounds of it ye aren't even evaluating it as a whole to be honest and just isolating it to "his ability to control a ball when receiving it from a team mate". Your first touch refers to your control regardless of situation.

Surely ye should be debating whether he's good on the ball when pressured instead?? At least that way ye are encompassing his first touch, decision making, willingness to show for the ball etc. instead of just deciding how good a midfielder he is based on his first touch.

I usually talk about first touch and close control, because imo those two go together as a part of the whole when it comes to that aspect of the game. Carrick's passing is good, his concentration is good, his decision making is good, his willingness to show for the ball in the important areas when pressed is weak, his first touch and close control are weak. These things are all relative and I'm talking about them in comparison to the top level defensive central midfielders.

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

exactly, same with xavi same with Busquets etc they don't really play games when pressure is put on them but when some teams do, they also struggle...example being Bayern Munich v Barcelona, or man utd when they hammered ac Milan 4-0 and I think it was ji sung park that put pressure on pirlo and he did nothing welbeck when he pushed on Alonso v real madrid totally took him out of the game

The reason they get pressed so infrequently is because they beat the pressure pretty much every time it's put on them.

There were plenty of times where teams tried to press Barca during their dominant years. Barca played through the pressure with ease and then destroyed them the vast majority of times. You pick one time when Barca's manager was terminally ill (not very conducive for good preparation), they were struggling for form, facing a possession side and Song was playing in midfield for them and you conclude that - yeah it's the pressing that was the difference. If only all the teams that were destroyed by Barca in previous years had thought to press them, then that Barca midfield would have struggled just like other teams' do.

That AC Milan team were an indisciplined shambles, managed by Leonardo, and over reliant on Pirlo. Pirlo's great, but no player is going to carry a team on his own. Once United put a man-marker on him he was screwed because there was nobody even slightly sharing the load of taking on possession for them.

Welbeck didn't totally take Alonso out of the game, Alonso still had a big influence in that game. And that was a Mourinho team anyway, so it wasn't like they were set up to keep possession.

Mikeyt086

bucketybuck wrote: »

Note, post may not be entirely serious.

Should be your sig :pac:

bucketybuck

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Should be your sig :pac:

Many may not like my posts, but it is very rare that they are anything but 100% genuine.

ElChe32

The Special Juan won player and goal of the month.

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-Features/Exclusive-Interviews/2015/Apr/video-juan-mata-delighted-with-player-and-goal-of-the-month-awards.aspx?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=ManUtd

The_Kew_Tour

Where ye get some gifs sometimes I'm not sure but some can be excellent.

Bit annoyed that I have go pub to watch game again this weekend. The good old days when we were on practically on every week.

statto25

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Bit annoyed that I have go pub to watch game again this weekend. The good old days when we were on practically on every week.

I thought Everton v Southampton was the game on Setanta this saturday? Or does the pub have a "special" TV box?

The_Kew_Tour

statto25 wrote: »

I thought Everton v Southampton was the game on Setanta this saturday? Or does the pub have a "special" TV box?

Yes the special box.

That's why I was complaining. I know we had it good for years tbf but I got used to being spolit.

Rayne Wooney

ElChe32 wrote: »

The Special Juan won player and goal of the month.

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-Features/Exclusive-Interviews/2015/Apr/video-juan-mata-delighted-with-player-and-goal-of-the-month-awards.aspx?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=ManUtd

But he's crap, Mourinho knew what he was doing, he wouldn't get into the Liverpool team ahead of RaheemSterli-ohwaithesofftoArsenalsohes****now Jordan Ibe

Liam O

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Yes the special box.

That's why I was complaining. I know we had it good for years tbf but I got used to being spolit.

We're not spoilt in any way by the current tv setup. Especially not in Ireland.

Rayne Wooney

I can't wait for this to drag on all summer

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/manchester-united-transfers-strootman-ahead-8973330


If we didn't get him last summer there's no chance signing a player who will have played just two full games in 18 months

Whatsisname

:pac:

Mikeyt086

This is the best. From Falcao's Instagram.

Lemlin

Fantasy football question if you don't mind lads. I'm thinking of bringing Mata in. Is he still in danger though of van Gaal pulling him off at the earliest possible opportunity?

bucketybuck

Lemlin wrote: »

Fantasy football question if you don't mind lads. I'm thinking of bringing Mata in. Is he still in danger though of van Gaal pulling him off at the earliest possible opportunity?

I can't answer the question, but I will be very disappointed if LVG starts fucking about with the team again.

There is no logical reason to change the team, but LVG had his head up his arse all season so who knows what he will do when Van Persie is fit again.

jayo26

bucketybuck wrote: »

I can't answer the question, but I will be very disappointed if LVG starts fucking about with the team again.

There is no logical reason to change the team, but LVG had his head up his arse all season so who knows what he will do when Van Persie is fit again.

Yup only thing I'm worried about is rvp too, from sounds of his interviews earlier on 433 is his favoured formation so that might count but ya never know,

Lemlin

When is RVP expected back lads?

Mitch Connor

jayo26 wrote: »

Yup only thing I'm worried about is rvp too, from sounds of his interviews earlier on 433 is his favoured formation so that might count but ya never know,

My fear is that he will look to play Rooney in the Fellaini position, and either drop Fellaini or Herrera to accomodate - with RVP or Falcao up top.

Fellaini has been an important part of the recent performances/results, but so has Rooney running the channels and working the defenders up front, as has Herrera's movement, use of the ball and link up play.

I hope LVG leaves well alone - but fook knows.

Maximus Alexander

Mitch Connor wrote: »

My fear is that he will look to play Rooney in the Fellaini position, and either drop Fellaini or Herrera to accomodate - with RVP or Falcao up top.

Fellaini has been an important part of the recent performances/results, but so has Rooney running the channels and working the defenders up front, as has Herrera's movement, use of the ball and link up play.

I hope LVG leaves well alone - but fook knows.

With Fellaini's current form, it would be absolute madness to drop him now. I would be livid.

Polo_Mint

Maybe Maybe

So reports The Daily Mirror, with the Borussia Dortmund defender understood to have told his Germany teammates during the international break that a summer move to Old Trafford is on the verge of being agreed.

A source close to the Germany camp said: "He is preparing his exit and he gave some of the players signs that his transfer is close."

Experienced centre-back Hummels is likely to cost around £35m and a move to United would see boss Louis van Gaal land his No 1 defensive target.

World Cup winner Hummels said: "I think moving abroad will be good for my professional and personal well-being. Eventually, I'd like to leave the Bundesliga.

"I'm being open about this because I'm not a fan of those who claim they are staying but, behind the scenes, have actually secretly agreed a transfer away from their current club.

"Everyone knows how much I love it at Dortmund, but I also want to make sure I'm part of a strong team with powerful players."

United are also lining up an £11m move to beat off competition from Liverpool and Tottenham for Lille defender Simon Kjaer, according to The Express.

The_Kew_Tour

It must have some substance at this stage.

Be nice to finally have a German play for us too, if true.

Nailz

Just realised that there is a reasonable possibility that we could end up in 2nd for at least a couple of days from tomorrow evening. All things considered, that's pretty astounding!

Cantona's Collars

Smalling looking doubtful,LVG saying he is still unwell.

jayo26

RVP not back in squad this weekend, he says fellanni the way he is playing he cant drop him in so many words, shaw is back in the squad and smalling is out with illness.

Copper_pipe

bucketybuck

Copper_pipe wrote: »

Rafael 5-a-side team

No surprise he picked Valencia, he knows he'll see plenty of the ball that way.

Backstreet Moyes

Real shame about Rafael can't understand it he is miles ahead of Valencia he must have done something off the field.

With his injury problems we will need a new rb anyway.

Lukekul

https://www.facebook.com/BarclaysFootball/photos/a.453685177813.240196.199581572813/10153787459832814/?type=1&theater

Disappointed for LVG, thought he deserved it.

Mars Bar

Rafael's 5 a side is just him picking his best friends at the club by the looks of it.

Mitch Connor

Mars Bar wrote: »

Rafael's 5 a side is just him picking his best friends at the club by the looks of it.

No keeper either...

---

Rooney
----Carrick-Herrera
---Mata

---

RVP

sky88

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

It must have some substance at this stage.

Be nice to finally have a German play for us too, if true.

Never realised a German hasn't played for united till I seen this

TheDoc

sky88 wrote: »

Never realised a German hasn't played for united till I seen this

Still irks me we didn't test Schweinsteigers loyalty a little more after South Africa (I frequently confused South Africa and Poland, but pretty sure S.A was the first time he played CM and was sensational, and by far player of the tournament)

We were crying out for a CM like that and wish we had of gone mad for him. I think there was strong interest an attempts with Ozil, who was amazing as well, but Schweinsteiger was the one we really needed.

MagicMarker

Lukekul wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/BarclaysFootball/photos/a.453685177813.240196.199581572813/10153787459832814/?type=1&theater

Disappointed for LVG, thought he deserved it.

Doubt he gives a flying toss.

Liam O

LVG definitely didn't deserve manager of the month over Wenger, Giroud has been in fantastic form too but I'd have loved to see Fellaini get it.

LVG did an interview earlier where he said that he can still take him out but not when he's playing like that which slightly worries me. Fellaini should be playing no matter what at this stage, a bit late to experiment now but I think him and Herrera would be a good 2 behind an attacking 4 but it would be a risky experiment and one that LVG won't do at this stage. Best way of getting Falcao some games though, gutted that he's going to be leaving.

Press conference for the Villa match...

Can we still win the title boss?

'Mattedmacedatly'

UnitedIrishman

sky88 wrote: »

Never realised a German hasn't played for united till I seen this

Closest we came to it would probably be Ron-Robert Zieler. Was reserve keeper for a long spell and played youths for us. He's doing fairly well now and is one of the backup keepers for the national side.

Manutd_4life

Not a chance we will win the title. We could reach 2nd but i'll settle with 4th this season.

jayo26

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Closest we came to it would probably be Ron-Robert Zieler. Was reserve keeper for a long spell and played youths for us. He's doing fairly well now and is one of the backup keepers for the national side.

We could pretend heinze was German and not argentine it sounds more German ha

bucketybuck

jayo26 wrote: »

We could pretend heinze was German and not argentine it sounds more German ha

Now I'm wondering about his ancestry, and if his grandparents arrived in Argentina circa 1945...

jimmytwotimes 2013

http://www.footyheadlines.com/2015/04/adidas-manchester-united-15-16-training-shirts.html?m=1

Adidas United training shirts for next season, apologies if posted already

yabadabado

Im not surprised United haven't had a German player .Not many of the top players leave the Bundeliga and the few that have its only in recent years.
Of all the German players who have came to the EPL who would ye most liked to have seen join United ?
I would have loved to see United buy Ballack when he joined Chelsea.

Whatsisname

Our Adidas shirts have made me all giddy.

For any Rachel Riley fans, here she is having a go at predicting our points total for the remaining games. The video also serves as a reminder that RVP has scored some beautiful goals for the club.

She's certainly an occupier of the positivity couch.

Maximus Alexander

She made the fatal mistake of not throwing in a banana skin. You have to throw in a surprise loss against Hull, Palace or WBA to avoid looking too smug. :pac:

Trond

yabadabado wrote: »

Im not surprised United haven't had a German player .Not many of the top players leave the Bundeliga and the few that have its only in recent years.
Of all the German players who have came to the EPL who would ye most liked to have seen join United ?
I would have loved to see United buy Ballack when he joined Chelsea.

We gave away a rather decent German a few years ago, Zieler. He even has 5 german caps to date....