Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Another Company Discriminates Against Gays

Options
1…1516182021…57

Comments

  • Options
    #512
    Pedro Gonzalez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭Pedro Gonzalez


    Atomic Pineapple wrote: »
    When providing a service you have no right to do so based on your religious beliefs.

    I suppose Halal shopkeepers should just shut up shops and go home then?

    They indeed DO have a right to run a service based on what they believe in.

    The same way as you have an option not to use them if you so wish.


  • Options
    #513
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    Brutalitops wrote: »
    Agreed. Printing civil partnership cards is not a service he provides. So how is it discrimination for him to tell a customer that?

    When same-sex marriage is legal and he refuses to print marriage invitations for same-sex couples, but still does for heterosexual couples, then you have him bang to rights.

    Not at all. The only difference between marriage and civil partnerships is sexual orientation. He is discriminating directly or indirectly based on sexual orientation.

    You are really splitting hairs here. Again if a hotel had a policy that only married couples could book a room, they would be discriminating against same sex couples.


  • Options
    #514
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,610 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Drumpot wrote: »
    Nobody knows if they knew the clients sexual orientation before they requested the gay wedding invitations so please stop mentioning it.

    No, because I believe it to be a valid point to make. You cannot prove that they turned him away because of his sexual orientation alone.


  • Options
    #515
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    Coincidentally, another Drogheda based printer prints Gay Community News magazine.


  • Options
    #516
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    amazes me the hubris of this couple, going to the internet and papers. Why not light a torch and burn their business. Tell me this, if the KKK asked him to put a white hood made of icing over a cake and he said no, you'd all be patting him on the back but strictly speaking, the KKK's beliefs do not reflect his own!!

    I'm assuming as they're customers 4 years, they've been treated well up until then. so what then?? just go elsewhere and respect the beliefs of the business.
    why do some gay people take everything into the public eye, get over yourselves! I have a niece who's gay and finds this crack offensive herself. How about tolerance for the persons belief system.. would you force a Jew to eat kosher meat at your wedding too??? such is his belief not to do so. Nobody's getting hurt so just go elsewhere, end of story!! or maybe that's just it, the couple think it would make a great story.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #517
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Brutalitops wrote: »
    No, because I believe it to be a valid point to make. You cannot prove that they turned him away because of his sexual orientation alone.

    Answer the question. What is your definition of discrimination?


  • Options
    #518
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    rusty cole wrote: »
    Tell me this, if the KKK asked him to put a white hood made of icing over a cake and he said no, you'd all be patting him on the back but strictly speaking, the KKK's beliefs do not reflect his own!!

    No because the printer would refuse to do that for anyone I assume.


  • Options
    #519
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,610 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Drumpot wrote: »
    Answer the question. What is your definition of discrimination?

    I already answered it.
    Brutalitops wrote: »
    The same as the law.


  • Options
    #520
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    Brutalitops wrote: »
    No, because I believe it to be a valid point to make. You cannot prove that they turned him away because of his sexual orientation alone.

    It's indirect discrimination based on the fact that only gay people can get civil partnershipped.

    The only difference is marriage is for straight people and cp is for gay people. If they print marriage cards but not cp cards they are discriminating. Which you've being told again and again.


  • Options
    #521
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    rusty cole wrote: »
    amazes me the hubris of this couple, going to the internet and papers. Why not light a torch and burn their business. Tell me this, if the KKK asked him to put a white hood made of icing over a cake and he said no, you'd all be patting him on the back but strictly speaking, the KKK's beliefs do not reflect his own!!

    I'm assuming as they're customers 4 years, they've been treated well up until then. so what then?? just go elsewhere and respect the beliefs of the business.
    why do some gay people take everything into the public eye, get over yourselves! I have a niece who's gay and finds this crack offensive herself. How about tolerance for the persons belief system.. would you force a Jew to eat kosher meat at your wedding too??? such is his belief not to do so. Nobody's getting hurt so just go elsewhere, end of story!! or maybe that's just it, the couple think it would make a great story.

    Wait, blatant homophobia and discrimination but you equate those highlighting it to the kkk...Odd logic! The KKK were a group dedicated to causing hate, someone asking for wedding invites is not remotely similar.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #522
    Pedro Gonzalez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭Pedro Gonzalez


    Daith wrote: »
    Your home is not business and does not follow equality law. Any more stupid analogies you want to make?

    "As smoking is to the lungs
    so is resentment to the soul
    even one puff is bad for you"


  • Options
    #523
    The Muppet
    Registered Users Posts: 14,003 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    Drumpot wrote: »
    Nobody knows if they knew the clients sexual orientation before they requested the gay wedding invitations so please stop mentioning it.

    Lets break this down:

    1. The company prints wedding invitations as part of its business
    2. The company openly refuses to print wedding invitations for same sex couples

    The company openly refuses to provide a service to one target minority based on their sexual preference.

    And again I ask, what is your definition of discrimination ?

    It says design in the Article. It's not just running a print. The designer should have a choice to what he designs, If he decides he doesn't want to design something that should be the end of it. Its not like there's a shortage of designers/printers.

    The designer/printer is entitled to hold his religious beliefs too.


  • Options
    #524
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    I don't agree with what printer done but I believe they should have the right to run their busness whatever the fup way they see fit. Maybe they get a lot of work from the Catholic church and don't want to rock the boat they are fishing with.


  • Options
    #525
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,610 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Do you know what, having just read up further on indirect discrimination, I hold my hands up. I was wrong. I didn't realise indirect discrimination had the reach it had.

    My apologies to anyone who was offended by my comments.


  • Options
    #526
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    The Muppet wrote: »
    The designer/printer is entitled to hold his religious beliefs too.

    He can but if wants to run a business he needs to follow the law.


  • Options
    #527
    Atomic Pineapple
    Registered Users Posts: 18,272 ✭✭✭✭Atomic Pineapple


    Pedro Gonzalez wrote: »
    I suppose Halal shopkeepers should just shut up shops and go home then?

    They indeed DO have a right to run a service based on what they believe in.

    The same way as you have an option not to use them if you so wish.

    Again you're analogy is incorrect, halal shopkeepers provide certain types of drinks and foods, if I went into one I should still be able to buy from them even though I don't share their beliefs. In this case they are providing a service to a certain community the same way as priests provide a certain service in their churches to a community. Again as someone who has different beliefs I have never been refused entrance to a church.

    In the case of the printer he is refusing to provide his service to a person based on their different beliefs no matter how anyone dresses it up, in a secular open and free society which Ireland should be striving to become this in my opinion should be illegal.


  • Options
    #528
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    Willfarman wrote: »
    I don't agree with what printer done but I believe they should have the right to run their busness whatever the fup way they see fit. Maybe they get a lot of work from the Catholic church and don't want to rock the boat they are fishing with.

    Fine, so they could have just said

    "Sorry we can't fulfill this order"

    Not

    "Sorry we can't fulfill this order because we don't support same sex unions"


  • Options
    #529
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Pedro Gonzalez wrote: »
    I dislike peanut butter but ive no problem with other people enjoying it.
    Should you force me to have it in my kitchen press,because you just cannot understand why I don't like it?


    Daft analogy #1
    Are you a business offering goods and services? No then the law does not apply to you.


  • Options
    #530
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Brutalitops wrote: »
    It's not clear cut because you have to be able to say that they discriminated against him because of who he is rather than what the purpose of the material was.

    Again, I wholly disagree with their stance and their reasons for it, but I don't believe it to be discrimination against a person.

    The 'person' in the form of the custome ordered the invites. The customer is not divisible from the order. End of story.


  • Options
    #531
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Would it be discrimination if a Jew walks into mainstream butchers meat counter and demands a order of halal meat even though it's not on sale due to the butcher not agreeing with the moral implications of animals being slaughtered inhumanely?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #532
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Brutalitops wrote: »
    The same as the law. However, in order to prove it as being discrimination, you need to be able to prove they were refused service because of their sexual orientation as opposed to what they were being asked to print, and there is an important distinction there.

    The fact that he was a customer of theirs for 4 years means you cannot prove he was refused service because of his sexual orientation.

    They were refused service because of their sexual orientation. If the same man had asked to have exactly the same card printed except the wedding was between him and a woman, he would have not been refused service.


  • Options
    #533
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Would it be discrimination if a Jew walks into mainstream butchers meat counter and demands a order of halal meat even though it's not on sale due to the butcher not agreeing with the moral implications of animals being slaughtered inhumanely?

    It wouldn't be discrimination if the butcher refused meat from inhumanely slaughtered animals to everyone.

    If he just refused it to a Jewish person but sold it to other people you are discriminating against Jewish people.


  • Options
    #534
    Pedro Gonzalez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭Pedro Gonzalez


    gozunda wrote: »
    Daft analogy #1
    Are you a business offering goods and services? No then the kaw does not apply to you.
    You may be sure the kaw doesn't apply to me.


  • Options
    #535
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Atomic Pineapple wrote: »
    But they gave no valid reason for refusing to print what the customer wanted? If I wanted to get leaflets printed explaining evolution should they be allowed to refuse me because of irrelevant personal beliefs of theirs?

    Evolution is not protected under the equal rights act. They could refuse this business because it is not discrimination against any prescribed group.

    It would be a pretty silly idea, but not illegal.


  • Options
    #536
    Atomic Pineapple
    Registered Users Posts: 18,272 ✭✭✭✭Atomic Pineapple


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Would it be discrimination if a Jew walks into mainstream butchers meat counter and demands a order of halal meat even though it's not on sale due to the butcher not agreeing with the moral implications of animals being slaughtered inhumanely?

    No because the butcher doesn't provide that service or product. The same way as its not discrimination if I can't find a certain tin of beans in Tesco.

    In this case the printer provides both the service and product but refused to fulfill the order based on the customers different beliefs.


  • Options
    #537
    The Muppet
    Registered Users Posts: 14,003 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    Daith wrote: »
    He can but if wants to run a business he needs to follow the law.

    What law did he break?


  • Options
    #538
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,243 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Brutalitops wrote: »
    The same as the law. However, in order to prove it as being discrimination, you need to be able to prove they were refused service because of their sexual orientation as opposed to what they were being asked to print, and there is an important distinction there.

    The fact that he was a customer of theirs for 4 years means you cannot prove he was refused service because of his sexual orientation.

    The guy literally states he refused the service because it was for a same sex marriage and he does not approve or believe in homosexuality. He's said it on Facebook, in the guys place of work, and then again on the radio.

    Previous service was provided because the owner did not realize he was gay, but as soon as he realized it was for a gay man planning on marrying another man he refused his service based solely on this.

    Come on people, there's no point in debating or discussing if this is discrimination or homophobia, the owner admitted it!


  • Options
    #539
    Atomic Pineapple
    Registered Users Posts: 18,272 ✭✭✭✭Atomic Pineapple


    The Muppet wrote: »
    What law did he break?

    Equality.


  • Options
    #540
    WellThen?
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭WellThen?


    There's a referendum on this issue coming up soon already. We already know some people don't agree. What is the problem here? If a Sinn Fein TD was refused printing due to the printers political views would it be all over the internet. I don't agree with the oul fella but if he asked me to print religious pamphlets I would refuse as I don't agree with it.
    This is his belief, as stupid as they are, can people mind their own business and respect that ffs.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #541
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    The Muppet wrote: »
    What law did he break?

    Equality laws.

    He prints cards for heterosexual unions.
    He doesn't print cards for homosexual unions.

    He is discriminating based on sexual orientation.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement