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Another Company Discriminates Against Gays

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    #542
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Pedro Gonzalez wrote: »
    I don't see bigotry,what I see is people sticking to what they believe in.

    What I do see,however is a lot of people trying to force their opinions down other peoples throats and by becoming sneery and dismissive when someone doesn't agree with their views.

    So you see current anti discrimination law as "a lot of people trying to force their opinions down other peoples throats" Nice

    And when others point out that the printer has apparently broken the law under the Equal Status act they are "sneery and dismissive when someone doesn't agree with their views." seriously?
    Id offer an opinion that it is a form of bullying and maybe it will be potentially counter productive when the vote on same sex marriage comes around.

    I'd offering the opinion the shoe is on the other foot and the fundamentalist christians are bullying their customers and these self same christians are using this as another opportunity to soapbox in advance of the upcoming referendum hoping to polarise opinion. Oh yeah and they are breaking the law.


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    #543
    Strong Life in Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 487 ✭✭Strong Life in Dublin


    Lollipops23 wrote: »
    Refusing to print something that's involved in illegal activity (kiddie fiddling and terrorism both being that) is sliiiightly different.

    Sure the gays were illegal not too long ago


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    #544
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    The printer doesn't print anything that conflicts with his own morals beliefs. They probably won't print pro abortion literature either for example. I don't agree with them but I agree with his right to choose who he wants to work for. Any private business should have the right to work for or not work for whoever they please.


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    #545
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Pedro Gonzalez wrote: »
    His shop,his rules and if it doesn't suit you,then go elsewhere.
    What gives anyone the right to trample on anyones elses beliefs?

    Daft analogy # 2
    Answer: The law prevents the fundamentalist shop owner from discrimnating against the customer.


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    #546
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    rusty cole wrote: »
    amazes me the hubris of this couple, going to the internet and papers. Why not light a torch and burn their business. Tell me this, if the KKK asked him to put a white hood made of icing over a cake and he said no, you'd all be patting him on the back but strictly speaking, the KKK's beliefs do not reflect his own!!

    I'm assuming as they're customers 4 years, they've been treated well up until then. so what then?? just go elsewhere and respect the beliefs of the business.
    why do some gay people take everything into the public eye, get over yourselves! I have a niece who's gay and finds this crack offensive herself. How about tolerance for the persons belief system.. would you force a Jew to eat kosher meat at your wedding too??? such is his belief not to do so. Nobody's getting hurt so just go elsewhere, end of story!! or maybe that's just it, the couple think it would make a great story.

    Difference is what the KKK do is completely illegal, much like what any terrorist organisation do.

    A same sex civil partnership is completely legal and just one of those life events for a % of the population who are gay.

    The comparison you're making makes no sense.

    Also, you're making an assumption that people make a choice to be gay and offend anti-gay shop keepers. They don't any more than a red headded Irish person decides to be Irish and redheadded or a woman decides to be a woman etc.

    Discriminatory behaviour towards someone based on a personal characteristic of their makeup is the worst form by a long shot. It's not something that people decide to be or are brought up in like a religion or an adopted nationality. If you're gay, or bi.. You're gay or bi. It isn't something anyone should ever have to feel ashamed of !


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    #547
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,611 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Sonics2k wrote: »

    Previous service was provided because the owner did not realize he was gay,
    Is this established as fact now?


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    #548
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    Willfarman wrote: »
    They probably won't print pro abortion literature either for example.

    Your analogy like so many other posters is wrong.

    He won't print pro abortion literature for anyone? That's fine
    He will print pro abortion literature for a white person but not a black person. Discrimination based on ethnicity.


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    #549
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    rusty cole wrote: »
    amazes me the hubris of this couple, going to the internet and papers. Why not light a torch and burn their business. Tell me this, if the KKK asked him to put a white hood made of icing over a cake and he said no, you'd all be patting him on the back but strictly speaking, the KKK's beliefs do not reflect his own!!
    The KKK are not protected against discrimination by the equal rights act so any business would be perfectly entitled to refuse their business under freedom of conscience.
    why do some gay people take everything into the public eye, get over yourselves! I have a niece who's gay and finds this crack offensive herself. How about tolerance for the persons belief system.. would you force a Jew to eat kosher meat at your wedding too??? such is his belief not to do so. Nobody's getting hurt so just go elsewhere, end of story!! or maybe that's just it, the couple think it would make a great story.


    I'm not gay and I support them as whistleblowers. People can have any private beliefs that they like, but they are not legally allowed to discriminate against minorities. Equality of opportunity is a foundational principle of our republic (before Dev went and sold our soul to the vatican)


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    #550
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Would it be discrimination if a Jew walks into mainstream butchers meat counter and demands a order of halal meat even though it's not on sale due to the butcher not agreeing with the moral implications of animals being slaughtered inhumanely?


    Daft analogy #3

    The printer offered wedding cards but refused the customer in this instance. There is no comparison with a shop being asked for something it does not have or service it does not provide ...


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    #551
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Pedro Gonzalez wrote: »
    You may be sure the kaw doesn't apply to me.

    But if you were a business the 'law' would apply to you ...;)


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    #552
    Strong Life in Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 487 ✭✭Strong Life in Dublin


    Daith wrote: »
    Equality laws.

    He prints cards for heterosexual unions.
    He doesn't print cards for homosexual unions.

    He is discriminating based on sexual orientation.

    No he is breaking no law. He prints wedding cards and in case you have not noticed same sex marriage is not legal here


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    #553
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Daith wrote: »
    Your analogy like so many other posters is wrong.

    He won't print pro abortion literature for anyone? That's fine
    He will print pro abortion literature for a white person but not a black person. Discrimination based on ethnicity.

    My analogy conflicts with yours but that does not prove it to be wrong. a person is entitled to hold his religous beliefs and live accordingly.


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    #554
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    Strong Life in Dublin wrote: »
    No his is breaking no law. He prints wedding cards and in case you have to noticed same sex marriage is not legal here

    I don't think I can be any clearer here

    A Marriage is a legal lawful union for heterosexual people in Ireland
    A Civil Partnership is a legal lawful union for homosexual people in Ireland.

    The printer prints cards for one union and not the other. The sole difference is sexual orientation. Sexual orientation is protected under our equality laws.

    So yes he is breaking the law.


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    #555
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    Willfarman wrote: »
    My apology conflicts with yours but that does not prove it to be wrong. a person is entitled to hold his religous beliefs and live accordingly.

    Not if he runs a business. Then he must follow the law. So yes you are wrong.


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    #556
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Pedro Gonzalez wrote: »
    I don't see bigotry,what I see is people sticking to what they believe in.

    What I do see,however is a lot of people trying to force their opinions down other peoples throats and becoming sneery and dismissive when someone doesn't agree with their views.

    Id offer an opinion that it is a form of bullying and maybe it will be potentially counter productive when the vote on same sex marriage comes around.

    You do know that people can believe bigoted things right? You can't just join the KKK and claim you aren't racist because you believe in their cause.

    We force our opinion down thieves, tax evaders and murderers throats too, going to take out your violin for them as well?

    Is it bullying when none of the other kids want to play with the kid who hits them and breaks their toys?


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    #557
    The Muppet
    Registered Users Posts: 14,003 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    Atomic Pineapple wrote: »
    Equality.

    As he has done work for the guy in the past I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on that for now.


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    #558
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    osarusan wrote: »
    Not an analogy - an example.

    An example of a situation where a homosexual person can be refused service and the reason not be connected to their sexual orientation.

    And it doesn't have to be a matter of legal or illegal either - a pub not allowing a big party of people celebrating a gay couple's engagement because there are simply too many of them for the bar to cater for is another example.

    You have argued plenty of times that the order cannot be separated from the person's sexeeual orientation, but that is obviously not always the case.

    If a business has a legitimate reason for refusing service, it has that right regardless of the sexual orientation of the customer. It is only when the reason for refusing service is the sexual orientation of the customer, that their orientation becomes relevant.

    As an aside, do you think this is a case of direct or indirect discrimination?

    I stated that the order cannot be separated from the customer (relevant to the ES Act)

    That's the only scenario that is relevant here. Regarding a ruling on the matter that wil be for the court to decide ...


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    #559
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    The Muppet wrote: »
    As he has done work for the guy in the past I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on that for now.

    No, he's definitely breaking equality laws.


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    #560
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,243 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    osarusan wrote: »
    Is this established as fact now?

    Yes it is, even the owner stated the man was a customer for a several years. Like most people, he never asked the guys sexuality because it doesn't really matter what your sexuality is. He was previously happy to provide the service to this man and his company for years, but when he discovered the purpose of the personal cards he refused the job, based on his opinion of homosexuality.

    Don't get me wrong here, the guy is free to not support gay marriage or even approve of homosexuality, we do live in a free and democratic state.

    -However-, because we live in a free and democratic state you cannot refuse service to a customer based on their gender/sexuality/religion and so on.

    We'd all be outraged if the owner refused service to a man because he was marrying a black or asian woman and he doesn't agree with mixed race marriage.


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    #561
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Brutalitops wrote: »
    I already answered it.

    No you didn't. What is your definition of discrimination ?

    When you leave your interpretation of what constitutes discrimination as ambiguous as your defence of this company, you make it difficult for anybody to objectively discuss your stance.


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    #562
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    Drumpot wrote: »
    No you didn't. What is your definition of discrimination ?

    When you leave it as ambiguous as your defence of this company, you make it difficult for anybody to objectively discuss your stance.

    In fairness, he did admit he looked up indirect discrimination and changed his mind I think.


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    #563
    Atomic Pineapple
    Registered Users Posts: 18,272 ✭✭✭✭Atomic Pineapple


    The Muppet wrote: »
    As he has done work for the guy in the past I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on that for now.

    As others have pointed out you don't have to give him the benefit of the doubt, it is clear he has broken Equality law, I believe Daith has highlighted this several times. Doing business with him in the past is irrelevant.


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    #564
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    If the printer was to the clearly states to individual customers that their firm hold catholic values and refuses to print anything that conflicts with them it is illegal? Even though it may be fund emanate to the success of the business as they may be getting a lot of work from the Catholic church because of their ethos.


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    #565
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Daith wrote: »
    In fairness, he did admit he looked up indirect discrimination and changed his mind I think.

    Fair enough . .

    The question still applies to those splitting hairs on this topic.

    If you think that the actions of the business were not in anyway discriminating against a target group, what is your definition of discrimination ?


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    #566
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    Willfarman wrote: »
    If the printer was to the clearly states to individual customers that their firm hold catholic values and refuses to print anything that conflicts with them it is illegal?

    Not if they refuse to print it for everyone.


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    #567
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Daith wrote: »
    Not if they refuse to print it for everyone.

    so as long as he wont print a same sex marriage invite or service sheet for a straight person as well he is in the clear?


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    #568
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    rusty cole wrote: »
    1) amazes me the hubris of this couple, going to the internet and papers. Why not light a torch and burn their business. 2) Tell me this, if the KKK asked him to put a white hood made of icing over a cake and he said no, you'd all be patting him on the back but strictly speaking, the KKK's beliefs do not reflect his own!!

    3) I'm assuming as they're customers 4 years, they've been treated well up until then. so what then?? just go elsewhere and respect the beliefs of the business.
    why do some gay people take everything into the public eye, get over yourselves! I have a niece who's gay and finds this crack offensive herself. 4)
    How about tolerance for the persons belief system.. 5) would you force a Jew to eat kosher meat at your wedding too??? such is his belief not to do so. 6) Nobody's getting hurt so just go elsewhere, end of story!! or maybe that's just it, the couple think it would make a great story.

    1) They were refused service by a business - to make it known is their right if they chose to do so.

    2) Thst would fall under incitment to hatred laws and could be handled appropriately

    3) the business took their orders until they knew they were gay

    4) how about the business obeying the law of the land?

    5) daft and non comparable analogy

    6) why should the customer be subjected to apartied and be forced to go elsewhere?


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    #569
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    Willfarman wrote: »
    so as long as he wont print a same sex marriage invite or service sheet for a straight person as well he is in the clear?

    Nope. He would be in the clear if he doesn't print any cards for any legal union.

    It's not direct discrimination but indirect discrimination based on the customer and the service he requires.

    To be honest, I've explained it quite a few times.


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    #570
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Daith wrote: »
    Nope. He would be in the clear if he doesn't print any cards for any legal union.

    So a butcher selling only kosher meat is illegal then? the printer has the right to only supply products that don't conflict with the Roman Catholic doctrine.


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    #571
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Will the equality authority be pursuing this printing business?


This discussion has been closed.
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