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Another Company Discriminates Against Gays

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  • Options
    #572
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    Willfarman wrote: »
    So a butcher selling only kosher meat is illegal then?

    Nope. Why? Because he sells that to everyone. He's not discriminating against anyone.
    Willfarman wrote: »
    the printer has the right to only supply products that don't conflict with the Roman Catholic doctrine.

    As long as he sells those products to everyone. He's not printing cards for same sex unions but will for straight couple unions so that's different.
    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Will the equality authority be pursuing this printing business?

    Probably not the NI equality authority...no.


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    #573
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Daith wrote: »
    Nope. He would be in the clear if he doesn't print any cards for any legal union.

    It's not direct discrimination but indirect discrimination based on the customer and the service he requires.

    To be honest, I've explained it quite a few times.

    Indirect discrimination is where the waters get very muddied. Not clear at all. All you have explained is your own view and interpretation of the matter. The same as myself. Have you any precident to offer?


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    #574
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Indirect discrimination is where the waters get very muddied. Not clear at all. All you have explained is your own view and interpretation of the matter. The same as myself. Have you any precident to offer?

    I'd suggest reading up on indirect discrimination. Also read up on a B&B refusing to allow a same sex couple to book a room in the UK.
    "Indirect discrimination is about practices or policies, which seem fair at first sight but which in effect, either intentionally or more often un-intentionally, result in discrimination against a minority ethnic group or groups."


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    #575
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Daith wrote: »
    Probably not the NI equality authority...no.
    Well no, I dont imagine they would....I was referring to the equality authority in the republic


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    #576
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Daith wrote: »
    Nope. Why? Because he sells that to everyone. He's not discriminating against anyone.



    As long as he sells those products to everyone. He's not printing cards for same sex unions but will for straight couple unions so that's different.



    Probably not the NI equality authority...no.

    Same sex unions conflict with the Catholic doctrine so all products relating to this are not for sale by this printer no matter who wants to buy them. As long as he doesn't sell a same sex Union products to anyone of any orientation creed or colour he is in the clear.


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    #577
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Well no, I dont imagine they would....I was referring to the equality authority in the republic

    I guess it depends if the gay couple want to go that route.


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    #578
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Same sex unions conflict with the Catholic doctrine so all products relating to this are not for sale by this printer no matter who wants to buy them. As long as he doesn't sell a same sex Union products to anyone of any orientation creed or colour he is in the clear.

    What is the difference between an invitation to a civil partnership, civil wedding and church wedding?

    People are really trying to not consider this discrimination, its as if discrimination is a bad thing.


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    #579
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Same sex unions conflict with the Catholic doctrine so all products relating to this are not for sale by this printer no matter who wants to buy them. As long as he doesn't sell a same sex Union products to anyone of any orientation creed or colour he is in the clear.

    As long as he doesn't sell any union products to anyone of any orientation creed or colour he is in the clear.

    Again, you really need to read up on indirect discrimination. I may have got one person to read up on it so that's a good success!


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    #580
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Indirect discrimination is where the waters get very muddied. Not clear at all. All you have explained is your own view and interpretation of the matter. The same as myself. Have you any precident to offer?

    The guy who removed the cake toppers from the stand

    Gay Community Newsletter Editor Brian Finnegan told TheJournal.ie that the publication felt it necessary to share the letters with the LGBT community.

    “We put it there because we feel consumers who are gay or lesbian have a right to know about who they are spending their money with,” he said. “The owner of Daintree has every legal right not to stock that merchandise, he’s not actively discriminating under the law I don’t think – to refuse service would be different – but we have the right to point out businesses that we believe are discriminating against LGBT people

    http://www.thejournal.ie/daintree-same-sex-1107532-Sep2013/


    It doesn't matter if you are actually discriminating or not


  • Options
    #581
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    What is the difference between an invitation to a civil partnership, civil wedding and church wedding?

    Only one of those three is approved by the Catholic church?


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    #582
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Only one of those three is approved by the Catholic church?

    Do they use a different machine for the others? Do they have the change the offered product for them?


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    #583
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Only one of those three is approved by the Catholic church?


    I actually think...maybe if they only printed wedding cards for Church weddings they may be in the clear. Interesting.

    I'm not sure if a couple who were getting only a civil marriage could say it was discrimination based on their religious beliefs.


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    #584
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Indirect discrimination is where the waters get very muddied. Not clear at all. All you have explained is your own view and interpretation of the matter. The same as myself. Have you any precident to offer?

    What is your definition of discrimination ?

    Its amazing that nobody seems to be willing to define what they feel discrimination is, but they are glad to speak in generalised terms about it.


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    #585
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Drumpot wrote: »
    What is your definition of discrimination ?

    Its amazing that nobody seems to be willing to define what they feel discrimination is, but they are glad to speak in generalised terms about it.

    Well if a staunch Catholic is being forced to produce a product that conflicts with his crazy deranged beliefs, his regious freedoms are being discriminated against! It's a tough question to answer.. In the true sense of pc I thing nearly everyone is discriminated by someone in their daily lives. Such is life and the ways of the world.


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    #586
    Clandestine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Clandestine


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    -However-, because we live in a free and democratic state you cannot refuse service to a customer based on their gender/sexuality/religion and so on.
    If we actually did live in a free and democratic state we would be able to refuse a service to anyone we wanted....


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    #587
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    Can a hotel not refuse a traveller wedding for fear of discrimination?


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    #588
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    People are getting a bit mixed up here. It's obvious that they refused the service because of the contents of the card not because of the sexuality of the customer.


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    #589
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Can a hotel not refuse a traveller wedding for fear of discrimination?

    They have to be already booked or Closed for maintenance.


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    #590
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Would it be discrimination if a Jew walks into mainstream butchers meat counter and demands a order of halal meat even though it's not on sale due to the butcher not agreeing with the moral implications of animals being slaughtered inhumanely?

    What would be even stranger is that Halal meat is a Muslim thing. Kosher is Jewish.


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    #591
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    What would be even stranger is that Halal meat is a Muslim thing. Kosher is Jewish.

    Don't you be discriminating that Jew! He has the money to buy whatever he wants!


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    #592
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    gozunda wrote: »
    1) They were refused service by a business - to make it known is their right if they chose to do so.

    To make it public is pushing their agenda rather than just going elsewhere taking all future business with them. I'm refused entry to a nightclub because they don't like my outfit, I don't run to the herald!! I go elsewhere.

    2) Thst would fall under incitment to hatred laws and could be handled appropriately

    They're not getting beat up and pee'd on as in Russia, they should appreciate the other person views. The business did not express hatred here at all but you fly that flag as high as you like when it suits.

    3) the business took their orders until they knew they were gay

    Not worth a reply to be honest, stupid remark

    4) how about the business obeying the law of the land?

    How about them doing the same and adhering to a business's right to refusal!! god bless them on jury duty if they ever go!! you can be refused for hair colour by a judge, knowing you, it would be incitement to hatred too.

    5) daft and non comparable analogy

    6) why should the customer be subjected to apartied and be forced to go elsewhere?

    eh because the shop/business simply don't want it!!


  • Options
    #593
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Clandestine wrote: »
    If we actually did live in a free and democratic state we would be able to refuse a service to anyone we wanted....

    One mans freedom....


  • Options
    #594
    arayess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭arayess


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    People are getting a bit mixed up here. It's obvious that they refused the service because of the contents of the card not because of the sexuality of the customer.

    we all know that but it won't stop people being hyper sensitive because somebody doesn't approve of the gay lifestyle.

    There is no discrimination here because the shop would serve a gay person (as evidenced by the 4 year relationship with the customer) but won't promote gay marriage by making those style of card for anybody.


  • Options
    #595
    Baggy Trousers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭Baggy Trousers


    http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/03/06/jesus-distancing-himself-from-drogheda-printers/
    Jesus Distancing Himself From Drogheda Printers

    A PRINTING company in Drogheda who refused to print invitations for a gay couple’s civil partnership ceremony have today been given the cold shoulder by Jesus of Nazereth in a scathing new interview.

    The 2015-year-old told WWN he did not support the move by Beulah Print, who claim to represent him and his father, stating he would never agree to such a move.

    “First of all: that would be a terrible PR move on our part,” said the only son of God. “Neither I, or anyone affiliated with my beliefs, would advise this blatant homophobia under God’s name. Sure, Dad created the two lads anyway. Why would he give a toss?”


  • Options
    #596
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    People are getting a bit mixed up here. It's obvious that they refused the service because of the contents of the card not because of the sexuality of the customer.

    Hi Pete

    This has been said a few times. What is the content of the card?


  • Options
    #597
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Drumpot wrote: »
    Ah that's splitting hairs.

    Does the business print invitations for weddings? Yes

    Does the business print invitations for Gay weddings? No

    At its basic interpretation, discrimination can be described as an act of making a distinction which is clearly the case here. There is a clear distinction being made based on sexual preference specifically for Gay Weddings.

    splitting hairs is a very important part of the law.

    In the scenario you put forward, the discrimination is against Civil Partnership or Gay Marriage ..... this is not discriminating against any particular gay person. If the printer wouldn't print cards for a divorced person, I think it would be the same.

    This couple can still have their civil partnership, and hopefully soon marriage if they want it. Someone else will happily take their business.


    These printers are being rightfully vilified for their stance but I still don't see them being done for discrimination.


  • Options
    #598
    Hyzepher
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hyzepher


    I wonder have they printed any invitations for religions that they are not believers in - if so they are discriminating. If they only print invitations for their religion then I guess they're ok - legally


  • Options
    #599
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Daith wrote: »
    Not if he runs a business. Then he must follow the law. So yes you are wrong.

    The law does not force or oblige anyone or any business to accept the order of the next customer who walks in the door


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    #600
    Atomic Pineapple
    Registered Users Posts: 18,272 ✭✭✭✭Atomic Pineapple


    Clandestine wrote: »
    If we actually did live in a free and democratic state we would be able to refuse a service to anyone we wanted....

    Nope because democracy called for equal rights, you are free however to not open a business to provide a service and therefore don't have to partake in the laws that govern running of the business.


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    #601
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Riskymove wrote: »
    splitting hairs is a very important part of the law.

    In the scenario you put forward, the discrimination is against Civil Partnership or Gay Marriage ..... this is not discriminating against any particular gay person. If the printer wouldn't print cards for a divorced person, I think it would be the same.

    This couple can still have their civil partnership, and hopefully soon marriage if they want it. Someone else will happily take their business.


    These printers are being rightfully vilified for their stance but I still don't see them being done for discrimination.

    Yup, But again only when done to the Correct group of poeple.


This discussion has been closed.
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