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Another Company Discriminates Against Gays

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    #602
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Well if a staunch Catholic is being forced to produce a product that conflicts with his crazy deranged beliefs, his regious freedoms are being discriminated against! It's a tough question to answer.. In the true sense of pc I thing nearly everyone is discriminated by someone in their daily lives. Such is life and the ways of the world.


    I noticed you didn't answer the question ...

    Nobody is forcing the company to produce/sell invitations.

    Can the company produce the invitations ? Yes

    Why is the company deciding to not provide the service ? A religious belief that discriminate against a section of society with regards to marriage.

    Is this a business decision or a personal decision? From a business perspective, there is no reason to not take this order. Therefore its a Personal decision being made purely on grounds of a personal prejudice (call it a religious belief, its still a prejudice).

    If the same laws (in this case discrimination) apply to all religions, one religion cant say it is being discriminated against, whatever its whacky beliefs are. It keeping the laws of the land separate from whatever "beliefs" a religion chooses to follow.

    I have no doubt that this company might get off on a technicality, but I don't think any objective thinking person could rationally excuse this situation. At its core, its a company choosing to not provide a service to somebody based on a religious belief. This belief happens to be one that discriminates against same sex marriage.


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    #603
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    Just been on BBC news.


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    #604
    Pedro Gonzalez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭Pedro Gonzalez


    WellThen? wrote: »
    There's a referendum on this issue coming up soon already. We already know some people don't agree. What is the problem here?
    This is his belief, as stupid as they are, can people mind their own business and respect that ffs.
    People wont respect it because they don't understand it.

    Which is wrong as well.


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    #605
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,709 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    -However-, because we live in a free and democratic state you cannot refuse service to a customer based on their gender/sexuality/religion and so on.


    The State itself discriminates against it's own citizens in the provision of public services, such as the provision of civil marriage to all citizens based upon their sexual orientation, so I wouldn't be too keen to call it a free and democratic State on that basis, and there are plenty of other ways too I can think of that the State allows for exemptions to equality legislation and even has it written into the constitution to allow for discrimination!

    We'd all be outraged if the owner refused service to a man because he was marrying a black or asian woman and he doesn't agree with mixed race marriage.


    Would we? I'm not too sure I'd be all that bothered tbh. I'd be thinking "what is it with people using ridiculous comparisons when it suits them, breaking people down into their various labels, it shows a serious lack of understanding either of people who are black (maybe they have no understanding of black culture, which is actually VERY homophobic? And as for using Asian culture... best definitely not go there and point out the problem with a person using an Asian person as an example when most Asian cultures are also quite homophobic too!)"...

    I would call using race or ethnicity a strawman when what we're talking about here is sexual orientation. It's not as if you would care what colour the person was who refused to print the cards due to their religious beliefs if they were black.


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    #606
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I would call using race or ethnicity a strawman when what we're talking about here is sexual orientation.

    Race or Ethnicity is one of the grounds that you can't be discriminated on. Like sexual orientation.

    I find it speaks volumes when people are ok with

    It's ok not to produce stuff for a same sex wedding

    but this a strawman.

    It's ok not to produce stuff or an interracial wedding


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    #607
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Riskymove wrote: »
    splitting hairs is a very important part of the law.

    In the scenario you put forward, the discrimination is against Civil Partnership or Gay Marriage ..... this is not discriminating against any particular gay person. If the printer wouldn't print cards for a divorced person, I think it would be the same.

    This couple can still have their civil partnership, and hopefully soon marriage if they want it. Someone else will happily take their business.


    These printers are being rightfully vilified for their stance but I still don't see them being done for discrimination.

    If you really want to get into it, you would have to find out if they adhere to all catholic teachings, to a word. If not, why are they selective about what they practise. . .

    The company can produce the goods, they are choosing not to based on a religious belief that singles out same sex couples. This belief does discriminate and by choosing to uphold this belief, you are by default discriminating.

    To suggest that "they don't print these sort of invitations", is a real "the money was only resting in my account" defence. Its trying to get off on a technicality, not a definitive defence.


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    #608
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    galljga1 wrote: »
    Just been on BBC news.

    link?


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    #609
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    ...............
    We'd all be outraged if the owner refused service to a man because he was marrying a black or asian woman and he doesn't agree with mixed race marriage.

    No, as seen on this thread it would be grand to discriminate against him because

    a) he is a man
    b) he is heterosexual
    c) she is a woman
    d) she is heterosexual

    https://media.giphy.com/media/k9XrZaAJuQyMU/giphy.gif


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    #610
    Pedro Gonzalez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭Pedro Gonzalez


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    You do know that people can believe bigoted things right? You can't just join the KKK and claim you aren't racist because you believe in their cause.

    We force our opinion down thieves, tax evaders and murderers throats too, going to take out your violin for them as well?

    Is it bullying when none of the other kids want to play with the kid who hits them and breaks their toys?
    Id call it personal taste and not bigotery.
    Id have no problem if someone doesn't like same sex marriage and doesn't want to promote it.
    It is their business after all.


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    #611
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Drumpot wrote: »
    If you really want to get into it, you would have to find out if they adhere to all catholic teachings, to a word. If not, why are they selective about what they practise. . .

    The company can produce the goods, they are choosing not to based on a religious belief that singles out same sex couples. This belief does discriminate and by choosing to uphold this belief, you are by default discriminating.

    To suggest that "they don't print these sort of invitations", is a real "the money was only resting in my account" defence. Its trying to get off on a technicality, not a definitive defence.

    And that will be for the Courts to decide, Again it's odd here first port of call is "OMG alert the media" and not have your solicitor do it. I bet they cant move for people bending over backwards to provide them services for free now (no pun intended).


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    #612
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I found it
    BBC News Website wrote:
    'Christian firm' refuses to print gay couple's invitations
    Male figures on top of wedding cake
    The Republic of Ireland is due to hold a referendum on same-sex marriage in May
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31753375


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    #613
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    And that will be for the Courts to decide, Again it's odd here first port of call is "OMG alert the media" and not have your solicitor do it. I bet they cant move for people bending over backwards to provide them services for free now (no pun intended).

    So what? I thought the general view is to take your business elsewhere. Why wouldn't you want to tell people too?

    Really the printers should just print a list of stuff they won't print and have it on their display. They seem to be using the customers for that.


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    #614
    Atomic Pineapple
    Registered Users Posts: 18,272 ✭✭✭✭Atomic Pineapple


    Pedro Gonzalez wrote: »
    People wont respect it because they don't understand it.

    Which is wrong as well.

    Since most people in Ireland were educated by the Catholic church I'd imagine most people from Ireland understand it very well. I certainly do and just because I disagree with it doesn't mean I don't respect it.

    I respect anyones own personal beliefs as long as they remain just that - personal - so that they don't infringe on people with differing beliefs. When it comes to business we need to make sure things are professional and not driven by any personal agenda (in my opinion).


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    #615
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I found it
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31753375
    He added they have also refused request to print materials that promote binge drinking, Halloween, "borderline pornography" and what he described as "the dark arts".

    Which is perfectly fine because they're not discriminating against anyone!
    Mr O'Leary said that as a Christian he did not agree with a gay "agenda or lifestyle", and objected to same-sex marriage.

    So if a Civil Partnership isn't a marriage why the objection?


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    #616
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Daith wrote: »
    So what? I thought the general view is to take your business elsewhere. Why wouldn't you want to tell people too?

    Really the printers should just print a list of stuff they won't print and have it on their display. They seem to be using the customers for that.

    Nah, I could put my Tinfoil hat on and make a scenario about knowing full well what would happen if you tried to get Gay media printed at a Very Religious printer you have been doing business for years with. But meh that's just me. People do like theor free stuff if they can get it.


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    #617
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    link?

    TV: BBC Newsline


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    #618
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Nah, I could put my Tinfoil hat on and make a scenario about knowing full well what would happen if you tried to get Gay media printed at a Very Religious printer you have been doing business for years with. But meh that's just me. People do like theor free stuff if they can get it.

    Gay media? Invitations for a wedding? Hopefully that's just you yeah.

    Especially as the customers have had no problem paying for other material to be printed.


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    #619
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Daith wrote: »
    Gay media? Invitations for a wedding? Hopefully that's just you yeah.

    Would Civil partnership inventions be ok ? Jesus..


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    #620
    Nerdlingr
    Registered Users Posts: 4,385 ✭✭✭Nerdlingr


    What happned to the 'je suis charlie' brigade from a few weeks back?
    Where's free speech gone to?
    Is this business not entitled to choose what it feels comfortable producing?
    If it does not agree with gay marraige so be it, thats their choice.
    Talk about forcing the issue on someone.


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    #621
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    Daith wrote: »
    Which is perfectly fine because they're not discriminating against anyone!



    So if a Civil Partnership isn't a marriage why the objection?

    Halloween? WTF?


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    #622
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Would Civil partnership inventions be ok ? Jesus..

    Apparently not. Praise be to Jesus.


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    #623
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Pedro Gonzalez wrote: »
    Id call it personal taste and not bigotery.
    Id have no problem if someone doesn't like same sex marriage and doesn't want to promote it.
    It is their business after all.

    A person cant be racist or bigoted just because what they believe is true?

    They arent promoting anything. Tesco isnt promoting a brand just because they happen to stock it.

    Exactly, a business. They have their personal beliefs but they were acting as a business at the time.


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    #624
    Pedro Gonzalez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭Pedro Gonzalez


    Atomic Pineapple wrote: »
    . When it comes to business we need to make sure things are professional and not driven by any personal agenda (in my opinion).


    For the vast majority of businesses, money is what drives and motivates.
    These printers are driven by belief and that should be respected.


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    #625
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Clandestine wrote: »
    If we actually did live in a free and democratic state we would be able to refuse a

    service to anyone we wanted....

    When your at it throwing out the anti discrimination law, hell throw out the whole legal system and sure we would have absolute anarchy BUT everyone could do they wanted to anyone without fear of any reprocussions . Hmmm let me think about that? Just thought about it. No thanks.


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    #626
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Daith wrote: »
    Apparently not. Praise be to Jesus.

    Exactly, And would have to be proven on court that this printer supplies that service.


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    #627
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    gozunda wrote: »
    When your at it throwing out the anti discrimination law, hell throw out the whole legal system and sure we would have absolute anarchy BUT everyone could do they wanted to anyone without fear of any reprocussions . Hmmm let me think about that? Just thought about it. No thanks.

    The guy with the cake topper in Dublin didn't break any laws. He was still hounded out of business and a lot of his staff were left without jobs because of abuse they received.


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    #628
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    Nerdlingr wrote: »
    If it does not agree with gay marraige so be it, thats their choice.
    Talk about forcing the issue on someone.

    Stop oppressing the Christians when they break the law!

    https://spagmonster.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/christian-persecution.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/81/67/39/816739ea2e073ef02282ae59b9d84f74.jpg


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    #629
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Exactly, And would have to be proven on court that this printer supplies that service.

    He supplies invitations for hetreosexual unions. In fact the business owner is equating civil partnerships with same sex marriage anyway.


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    #630
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    Daith wrote: »
    Stop oppressing the Christians when they break the law!

    https://spagmonster.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/christian-persecution.jpg

    Stop oppressing Gay people when they break the law

    http://www.gaywelcome.com/gay-only-guesthouse-cork-ireland-h2474.html
    http://www.purpleroofs.com/bellatrix-ire.html


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    #631
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,952 ✭✭✭Daith


    bjork wrote: »
    The guy with the cake topper in Dublin didn't break any laws. He was still hounded out of business and a lot of his staff were left without jobs because of abuse they received.

    Daintree? The shop I was in a few weeks ago? When did that close down?


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