Another Company Discriminates Against Gays

Zhane

Pedro Gonzalez wrote: »

Is it true panti bar have a gay only policy?
Thought I read somewhere he wasn't overly welcome to some straight people wanting to enter.

Not true at all.

Cuban Pete

TheChizler wrote: »

You realize by doing that you'd be doing what many here are accusing the printer of doing? Discriminating against someone/a business because of their/the owner's characteristics? Practices fair enough.

I know it's not illegal this way round but it's food for thought.

Not really. It's the same old "you have to tolerate intolerance" semantic claptrap.

darkpagandeath

Cuban Pete wrote: »

Not really. It's the same old "you have to tolerate intolerance" semantic claptrap.

Plenty of intolerance around....

Kiwi in IE

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Nope, no I don't see that kind of agreement at all, I don't think anyone has referred to them as religious nutters only yourself. I also don't see how you can project your own prejudices to make the statement that "most people know the business owners are religious loons".

I think I have so far referred to them as 'pricks', 'arseholes', 'rednecks' (I shamefully lost my temper a bit last night) and yes I certainly agree that they are religious nutters/loons. So you have at least two concurring on that!

K4t

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Plenty of intolerance around....

Being tolerant of one's beliefs does not mean one must respect and refrain from criticising those beliefs. That's not tolerance, it's simply stupid. It's nothing. Beliefs have to be questioned and challenged, especially extreme religious ones. Otherwise, we'd still be in the dark ages.

Cuban Pete

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Plenty of intolerance around....

Should I tolerate someone hurling abuse at me because their beliefs tell them to do so?

darkpagandeath

Cuban Pete wrote: »

Should I tolerate someone hurling abuse at me because their beliefs tell them to do so?

Only see one side doing that and it's pretty cringe. Check out the FB page.

K4t

One eyed Jack wrote: »

FWIW btw, I wouldn't think comments on a social media website are in any way a reflection of social attitudes, they're usually an outlet for all sorts of extremist opinions that people would be too civil to air offline for fear of recriminations.

I don't quite get your overall argument, are you saying that Ireland will never escape Catholicism and extreme religious beliefs? Because the last 20 years would prove you are incorrect and I'm sure the next 20 will too.

Just on the last bit; social media will be the saviour of this generation for exactly the reasons you mention, it gives voice and platform to those who would not have had it in the past, and it allows all opinions to be aired, most importantly those that would be deemed too risqué or taboo for radio, print media or tv. It is the essence of the free speech marketplace.

shruikan2553

Cuban Pete wrote: »

Should I tolerate someone hurling abuse at me because their beliefs tell them to do so?

Supposedly. If you dont support their intolerance then you are intolerant which is a weird thing to accuse others of as being intolerant isn't necessarily a bad thing(ie, intolerant of murder).

One eyed Jack

Daith wrote: »

In Ireland we don't have free speech. Not that it has anything to do with equality laws but well you might as well grasp at straws.

We do actually, subject to certain restrictions of course. It's one of the fundamental rights in our constitution -

Freedom of speech: Subject to "public order and morality", a qualified right of freedom of speech is guaranteed by Article 40.6.1°. However, "the State shall endeavour to ensure that organs of public opinion" (such as the news media) "shall not be used to undermine public order or morality or the authority of the State". Furthermore, "the publication or utterance of blasphemous, seditious, or indecent matter" is specifically stated to be a criminal offence. In Corway v. Independent Newspapers (1999), the Supreme Court dismissed an attempt to bring a prosecution for blasphemy on the basis that, amongst other things, no coherent definition of the offence was provided by law. Such a definition is now provided by the Defamation Act 2009 which defines it as the publication of matter "grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby [intentionally] causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ireland

gozunda

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Are you sure about that, People are awfully co*k sure they are right on this, I have not heard a case being brought for freedom of Religion and Religious discrimination of Gay rights. And laws get challenged all the time that's how the legal profession works. You are charged with xyz does not mean you will be found guilty of xyz.

Erhhh - there re are cases brought for discrimination all the time. A business does not have a defacto freedom of religion as it is an entity and not an individual and therefore could not make a claim for 'freedom of religion'. It certainly can be put forward as a reason as why the customer was refused goods and services but whether or not it is likley to be of use as a defence is up to the how the case is presented. Any outcome will be based on the weighing up of the facts of the case and not a challenge of the law(?)*

Edit: * if you mean an appeal on a point of law then the matter may be taken to the high court. Ie where an appeal on a point of law where there is a a question about the interpretation of the law itself and is seperate from the facts of any case. I believe such appeals are definitely not run of the mill and may rack up huge legal costs.

Akrasia

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

What drive the owner out of his own business?

The owners have a very very simple out that will repair 99% of his reputational damage

Admit that they were wrong to refuse to print the invitations and say that they are open and will accept business from people of all sexual orientations, races, religions, family circumstances etc etc

An apology will save their business. Most people will accept these people's right to hold private beliefs about the morality of same sex relationships as long as they conduct themselves professionally

If they stick to their guns and defend their discrimination, then they only have themselves to blame if their customers turn against them

Cuban Pete

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Only see one side doing that and it's pretty cringe. Check out the FB page.

That doesn't answer my question, though.

And while I don't agree with abusing these people, I also find it difficult to draw up much sympathy for them.

One eyed Jack

K4t wrote: »

I don't quite get your overall argument, are you saying that Ireland will never escape Catholicism and extreme religious beliefs? Because the last 20 years would prove you are incorrect and I'm sure the next 20 will too.

Ohh I wouldn't be too sure when 82% of the Irish population still identify as Roman Catholic according to the 2011 census, and I'm sure you're aware that giving false information on the census, the person could be subject to a fine of €25,000. The next 20 years will see Irish society become more multicultural as Islam becomes more ingrained in Irish society and there will be more and more members of Irish society who will put down Muslim on the census form.

Like I said in the other thread - Irish society will become more like the UK and the US in the next few decades.

Just on the last bit; social media will be the saviour of this generation for exactly the reasons you mention, it gives voice and platform to those who would not have had it in the past, and it allows all opinions to be aired, most importantly those that would be deemed too risqué or taboo for radio, print media or tv. It is the essence of the free speech marketplace.

Yeah, cos there's no plans to curb free speech on social media, is there? I'm sure you're aware of the blasphemy laws?

"Saviour of this generation" is a stretch, I'm sure you're aware too how many people are affected by cyberbullying and subjected to discrimination online?

Akrasia

TheChizler wrote: »

You realize by doing that you'd be doing what many here are accusing the printer of doing? Discriminating against someone/a business because of their/the owner's characteristics? Practices fair enough.

I know it's not illegal this way round but it's food for thought.

Its not discrimination if you choose not to shop in a specific shop because you disagree with that specific persons attitudes towards equality. Discrimination is when you hold negative attitudes about an entire group of people based on a stereotype or the actions of a few individuals.

Not going to this one printers is not discrimination, deciding to boycott all printers that happen to be run by christians would be discrimination.

StewartGriffin

I defy anyone to read this full thread and not lose the will to live.

What a pathetic debate.

It's like six kids running around a room with fingers in ears screaming: "La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, .....!"

K4t

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Yeah, cos there's no plans to curb free speech on social media, is there? I'm sure you're aware of the blasphemy laws?

"Saviour of this generation" is a stretch, I'm sure you're aware too how many people are affected by cyberbullying and subjected to discrimination online?

The blasphemy law is an abomination and will be abolished. Cyber bullying just shows that bullying will always will exist; that's life. Bullying exists in schools but schools are still a good thing. I share many of your fears, but at the same time you cannot let them consume you, and prevent you from attempting to bring about and believing in change.

TheChizler

Akrasia wrote: »

Not going to this one printers is not discrimination, deciding to boycott all printers that happen to be run by christians would be discrimination.

And that would be because of their practices, as opposed to beliefs, which as I said is fair enough.

Akrasia

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ohh I wouldn't be too sure when 82% of the Irish population still identify as Roman Catholic according to the 2011 census, and I'm sure you're aware that giving false information on the census, the person could be subject to a fine of €25,000.

Crap, I'd better sell off my Durex shares

The census tells one story, the empty churches and seminaries tell another. Which is more accurate, a tick in a box to a badly worded question, or the fact that the vast majority of so called christians wouldn't be seen dead at mass outside of christmas and weddings/funerals

The next 20 years will see Irish society become more multicultural as Islam becomes more ingrained in Irish society and there will be more and more members of Irish society who will put down Muslim on the census form.

Like I said in the other thread - Irish society will become more like the UK and the US in the next few decades.

The UK and the US are both becoming more and more secular too.Young people are nowhere near as interested in religion as their grandparents were.

BreadnBuddha

StewartGriffin wrote: »

I defy anyone to read this full thread and not lose the will to live.

What a pathetic debate.

It's like six kids running around a room with fingers in ears screaming: "La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, .....!"

What a pathetic contribution. You read this entire thread and that's the sum total of your thoughts on many challenging and intelligent opinions which have been shared, on a highly topical subject?

Pot, Kettle, Black.

gozunda

gozunda wrote:

Dark ages => Thataway. Great place for fundamentalists I believe

One eyed Jack wrote:

2015, far more fundamentalism about these days with the prevalence of the Internet, makes the world a whole lot smaller, and social change happens much faster than in the Dark Ages, where y'know, there were no such things as equality laws and people could commit violent acts against those people who disagreed with them, pretty much indiscriminately. Nobody needed fundamentalism when they could pretty much obliterate people who got in their way.

But I believed from your posts that you were advocating to get rid of the anti discrimination laws / equality laws and allow people to decide pretty much for themselves as what they wanted to do. Which of course would leave the field wide open for every nut job in the planet to discriminate or treat unfairly any one they bloody well wanted. Oh yeah and the fundamentalists would have the upper hand because nobody could challenge them / just like the good old days in the Dark Ages. Fundamentalist like the Christian Church who basically held the reigns of both worldly and temporal power.

I'm believe you will find that communication and change have actually helped to promote a fairer society for all and has helped constain the dominance of the haters as you called them. Thankfully the fundamentalists are being pushed firmly into the wings / might take a few more decades but I'm sure we will get there

darkpagandeath

Seems all is turning out well, They have been offered loads of free stuff according to the news. And are considering legal action. Is I predicted people are falling over themselves to give them free stuff.

gozunda

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Seems all is turning out well, They have been offered loads of free stuff according to the news. And are considering legal action. Is I predicted people are falling over themselves to give them free stuff.

Link?

darkpagandeath

gozunda wrote: »

Link?

Sorry can't link live TV...

One eyed Jack

K4t wrote: »

The blasphemy law is an abomination and will be abolished.

That's debatable, given that it would require a referendum to repeal the law -

http://www.thejournal.ie/blasphemy-un-ireland-1589251-Jul2014/

I would like to see it repealed too, but there's no guarantee it will be, let alone a referendum held on the issue within the lifetime of the current government -

The current political situation:

13 January 2015 – Taoiseach Enda Kenny has said that a referendum on removing the offence of blasphemy laws from the Irish Constitution will not be held during the lifetime of this Government.

“Mr Kenny said the Coalition felt it is better to put changes recommended by the convention to the people on a phased basis. Mr Kenny said two referendums would be held this year – one on same-sex marriage and another on reducing the voting age for Presidential elections. Both are expected to be held in May. Mr Kenny said he did not want to hold more than two referendums on one day because it might take the focus away from the other issues.”

http://www.blasphemy.ie/

Cyber bullying just shows that bullying will always will exist; that's life. Bullying exists in schools but schools are still a good thing. I share many of your fears, but at the same time you cannot let them consume you, and prevent you from attempting to bring about and believing in change.

Thing is though, I'm not fearful at all for society. I see multiculturalism as a good thing. I was walking my child home from school the other day and he was walking ahead of me with his friends of all different colours and ethnicities and indeed religions. It was like a "mini United Nations" to see them all together like that

The only fear I would have is that by highlighting what I see as nonsense blowing something out of proportion is that people will lose their sense of perspective and the seeds of intolerance will really be sown, and the slightest offence upon a person will see them project their frustration by making sweeping generalisations about groups in society who are different from them in some way, they'll grow up with no sense of community and begin to isolate themselves from a society which they feel will never accept them, retreating into a fantasy world on social media where they can find other misanthropes who share their ideas about the way society should be to accomodate them, forming their own online community which they then begin to think is real to them.

B_Wayne

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Some people may not think so, They may take its as not family friendly and not bother availing of the services. So to coin a phrase "Indirect Discrimination" I do find it quite amusing the lengths people will go to defend Gay/lesbian Friendly as not Discrimination. One rule for some I guess.

And on the problematic view, That's just trying to defend the discriminatory practice.

I would assume you would have no problem with "Heterosexual/Family friendly"

Gay friendly would not strike most people as not family friendly. Suspect those who would view it as such are rather bigoted in their own right.

darkpagandeath

B_Wayne wrote: »

Gay friendly would not strike most people as not family friendly. Suspect those who would view it as such are rather bigoted in their own right.

Really ? Gay friendly sauna ? Is that a sly dig. :pac:

One eyed Jack

Akrasia wrote: »

Crap, I'd better sell off my Durex shares

The census tells one story, the empty churches and seminaries tell another. Which is more accurate, a tick in a box to a badly worded question, or the fact that the vast majority of so called christians wouldn't be seen dead at mass outside of christmas and weddings/funerals

Which is the story that actually influences public policy though? I mean, if a person identifies as Roman Catholic, who am I to start questioning the veracity of their beliefs? I don't, because it's rude for one thing, and secondly I have enough respect for a person that I wouldn't judge them for their absence of belief either. I'm a practising Roman Catholic, and my wife identifies as non-religious, and religion is one of the least issues that crops up among a whole host of other issues.

For example at the same time as Leo Vradkar was coming out in the media, my wife was doubled over in pain, and we couldn't get a hospital bed because all the hospitals were full. Do you think I or my wife gave a damn who Leo cuddles up to at night? Like hell we did. Right then and there we had more practical concerns that Leo as the Minister for Health should be concerned with.

I could give you many more examples, like the fact that I advocate for a secular State as I believe religion should have no place in education, that it should be kept outside the school gates, where the parents if they so wish can raise their child in their own religious community, and the school can get on with the business of educating children in subjects like science, the arts and so on.

The UK and the US are both becoming more and more secular too.Young people are nowhere near as interested in religion as their grandparents were.

The US is one of the most religious societies in the world? In the UK the they're the same. I think Sweden actually is top of the leaderboard as far as non-religious societies go, but by that same token, nobody seems to want to thank them for giving the world 'the Swedish model' which EU member states have adopted -

http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/feb/26/meps-vote-criminalise-buying-sex-european-parliament

MadDog76

Akrasia wrote: »

You have a lot of cognitive dissonance going on if you can be so well disposed towards the gay people that you know personally, but still hold the political belief that gay couples would be incapable of raising healthy balanced children

I'm sorry if I refuse to fit into what you're idea of a bigot is .......... I'm not homophobic yet I will vote No in the referendum which frustrates you .......... you want to put individuals into a labelled box, ie. "You either support the Gay Community 100% .......... or your a bigot!!!"

Sorry not me, I don't fit into either box I'm afraid .......... deal with it.

Most of the Gay Community are just normal everyday individuals ......... but, like most "groups" (for lack of a better word), the Gay Community does have it's extremists filled with paranoia about "them" hating "us" and ready to scream "outrage" at the slightest hint of any misconceived insult ........... to these individuals I say ........ build a f****** bridge! :rolleyes:

MadDog76

Akrasia wrote: »

For how many people on Rosa Parks' bus would have told her to just sit at the back and quit making a fuss?

You're actually going to compare a gay man being turned away by a little print shop in Drogheda .......... to the Civil Rights Movement in 50's Deep South Alabama??? Laughable!!