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Another Company Discriminates Against Gays

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    #752
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    You're actually going to compare a gay man being turned away by a little print shop in Drogheda .......... to the Civil Rights Movement in 50's Deep South Alabama??? Laughable!! :D

    Aye some people have no prospective at all, Especially When talking about hot topics on Social media.


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    #753
    Greenmachine
    Registered Users Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭Greenmachine


    This is another argument that will go around in circle. A gay customer being refused a particular service is discrimination, refusing to serve them on the basis of their orientation is.

    What If I went to the printer and wanted to have something printed that some may consider obscene. One printer might be happy to print an image of the prophet Mohammed, a muslim printer would have a conscious objection to printing that. Have I been discriminated against.
    I could come up,with a personal characteristic like, my lack of a beard, my physical height, my disability even and say, I was refused service because I was disabled.
    Some people really are coming to the wrong conclusions. If the printer has now told the customer "don't come back, I don't want you gay money" there would be some point to be made.


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    #754
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    That's debatable, given that it would require a referendum to repeal the law -

    http://www.thejournal.ie/blasphemy-un-ireland-1589251-Jul2014/

    I would like to see it repealed too, but there's no guarantee it will be, let alone a referendum held on the issue within the lifetime of the current government -


    http://www.blasphemy.ie/
    Cyber bullying just shows that bullying will always will exist; that's life. Bullying exists in schools but schools are still a good thing. I share many of your fears, but at the same time you cannot let them consume you, and prevent you from attempting to bring about and believing in change.

    Thing is though, I'm not fearful at all for society. I see multiculturalism as a good thing. I was walking my child home from school the other day and he was walking ahead of me with his friends of all different colours and ethnicities and indeed religions. It was like a "mini United Nations" to see them all together like that :D

    The only fear I would have is that by highlighting what I see as nonsense blowing something out of proportion is that people will lose their sense of perspective and the seeds of intolerance will really be sown, and the slightest offence upon a person will see them project their frustration by making sweeping generalisations about groups in society who are different from them in some way, they'll grow up with no sense of community and begin to isolate themselves from a society which they feel will never accept them, retreating into a fantasy world on social media where they can find other misanthropes who share their ideas about the way society should be to accomodate them, forming their own online community which they then begin to think is real to them.

    OEJ - the seeds of intolerance have long been sown and are blooming great thorny bushes at this stage - see the latest fundamentalists refusing to print a simple civil ceremony invite. These groups have already isolated themselves by using the text of 2000 year old narrative as building blocks.

    I agree that the blasphemy laws needed taking off the statute books. I have to ask one thing - are you advocating Cyber bullying as something that 'can't' be dealt with? Or is that just some random quote that wandered in?


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    #755
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Akrasia wrote: »
    The print shop owners think that they have the moral high ground.

    They think that there is virtue in upholding these archaic religious beliefs.

    They're dinosaurs, of a different era and while they may never change their own minds, their beliefs will go extinct with them.

    They're not bad people, they just picked the wrong side.Instead of choosing humanity, they chose imaginary sky god.

    If I, or anybody, made a similar statement about Gay people .......... you'd lose your f****** mind!!! :D

    "You know .......... the gays ........ there're not bad people as such ......... but ...... "


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    #756
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    gozunda wrote: »
    OEJ - the seeds of intolerance have long been sown and are blooming great thorny bushes at this stage - see the latest fundamentalists refusing to print a simple civil ceremony invite. These groups have already isolated themselves by using the text of 2000 year old narrative as building blocks.

    I agree that the blasphemy laws needed taking off the statute books. I have to ask one thing - are you advocating Cyber bullying as something that 'can't' be dealt with? Or is that just some random quote that wandered in?

    I support gay rights and SSM, But people like this and other's are not doing the Gay community any favours. I can only see stuff like this damaging SSM ref and all that. The adult thing to do would have been to remove all custom. And get on with your life. I highly doubt a small printing shop has this massive effect on the gay community that's being made out on here. If it was a well known chain and policy I could get behind it. But it's just one man.


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    #757
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    galljga1 wrote: »
    Coincidentally, another Drogheda based printer prints Gay Community News magazine.

    I wonder would he print off "Vote No in the Referendum" leaflets???


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    #758
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    I wonder would he print off "Vote No in the Referendum" leaflets???

    Of course they would, It's only Religious bigots that refuse to print material against their beliefs. :D


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    #759
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    B_Wayne wrote: »
    Wait, blatant homophobia and discrimination but you equate those highlighting it to the kkk...Odd logic! The KKK were a group dedicated to causing hate, someone asking for wedding invites is not remotely similar.

    I agree with this .......... a poster on this thread compared the Drogheda incident to the persecution of Rosa Parks!?!! Very odd indeed ...........


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    #760
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Daith wrote: »
    It wouldn't be discrimination if the butcher refused meat from inhumanely slaughtered animals to everyone.

    If he just refused it to a Jewish person but sold it to other people you are discriminating against Jewish people.

    But this printer refuses to print same-sex wedding invitations to everyone ........ he doesn't just refuse to print same-sex material and sell them to homosexuals, he refuses to print and sell same-sex material to heterosexuals as well


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    #761
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    I can't hold it in anymore. There are three dots in an ellipsis.


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    #762
    Cody montana
    Registered Users Posts: 5,268 ✭✭✭Cody montana


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    But this printer refuses to print same-sex wedding invitations to everyone ........ he doesn't just refuse to print same-sex material and sell them to homosexuals, he refuses to print and sell same-sex material to heterosexuals as well

    You hate gays, we get it, move on.


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    #763
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Cody montana wrote: »
    You hate gays, we get it, move on.

    Good job.... Great argument and reasoning. :p


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    #764
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    I support gay rights and SSM, But people like this and other's are not doing the Gay community any favours. I can only see stuff like this damaging SSM ref and all that. The adult thing to do would have been to remove all custom. And get on with your life. I highly doubt a small printing shop has this massive effect on the gay community that's being made out on here. If it was a well known chain and policy I could get behind it. But it's just one man.

    Ok so does the customer involved then Ignore the fact that it there is a good chance that he has been discriminated against and seek to address this via legal means so that other business in other places won't do this again and again?

    There is the added danger that if some fundamentalists who get away with this type of behaviour will only get worse in their attitudes to people who they do not approve of as they do not match up to their belief system? What then?

    It's not the first instance of this type of behaviour against the LGBT community
    And tbh I suspect that some fundamentalists may be using them to soapbox in the run up to the referendum.
    Then there is the wide issue that discrimination casts s much wider net and many more groups will unintentionally get caught up in any leeway given to anti gay fundamentalists and taken up by what OEJ describes as 'haters'. Of course Im speculating on this as tbh it certainly appears to be a new direction considering the anti discrimination laws have been around for a good few years now ...


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    #765
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    gozunda wrote: »
    Ok so does the customer involved then Ignore the fact that it there is a good chance that he has been discriminated against and seek to address this via legal means so that other business in other places won't do this again and again?

    There is the added danger that if some fundamentalists who get away with this type of behaviour will only get worse in their attitudes to people who they do not approve of as they do not match up to their belief system? What then?

    It's not the first instance of this type of behaviour against the LGBT community
    And tbh I suspect that some fundamentalists may be using them to soapbox in the run up to the referendum.
    Then there is the wide issue that discrimination casts s much wider net and many more groups will unintentionally get caught up in any leeway given to anti gay fundamentalists and taken up by what OEJ describes as 'haters'. Of course Im speculating on this as tbh it certainly appears to be a new direction considering the anti discrimination jaws have been around for a good few years now ...

    It's not as a wide spread problem as people are making out, Cake shop in the NORTH, Cake shop in town that did nothing wrong and put out of business, And this lad. these are the only story's I have heard about in a good while. I highly doubt, this is a coincidence to be fair with the referendum coming up.


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    #766
    G_R
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭G_R


    Cody montana wrote: »
    You hate gays, we get it, move on.

    Mod
    That kind of argument doesn't help anyone, or further anyone's cause. Debate the points by all means, but the above is pointless.


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    #767
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    I'm sorry if I refuse to fit into what you're idea of a bigot is .......... I'm not homophobic yet I will vote No in the referendum which frustrates you .......... you want to put individuals into a labelled box, ie. "You either support the Gay Community 100% .......... or your a bigot!!!"

    Sorry not me, I don't fit into either box I'm afraid .......... deal with it. :)

    Most of the Gay Community are just normal everyday individuals ......... but, like most "groups" (for lack of a better word), the Gay Community does have it's extremists filled with paranoia about "them" hating "us" and ready to scream "outrage" at the slightest hint of any misconceived insult ........... to these individuals I say ........ build a f****** bridge! :rolleyes:
    Where did I say you were homophobic. I said you had cognitive dissonance. Deep down you know that you have no grounds for discriminating against gay people, but you still feel the need to deny them equal rights presumably because of your religious beliefs.

    You are faced with a dilemma, you can't be both a supporter of equality and human rights and a 'good christian' so you have to make a choice.

    Rather than disregard your religious beliefs and vote for equality, you are disregarding your sense of fairness.
    I wish it was the other way around.


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    #768
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Cody montana wrote: »
    You hate gays, we get it, move on.

    I hate "poor little victim me" type people .........


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    #769
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Where did I say you were homophobic. I said you had cognitive dissonance. Deep down you know that you have no grounds for discriminating against gay people, but you still feel the need to deny them equal rights presumably because of your religious beliefs.

    You are faced with a dilemma, you can't be both a supporter of equality and human rights and a 'good christian' so you have to make a choice.

    Rather than disregard your religious beliefs and vote for equality, you are disregarding your sense of fairness.
    I wish it was the other way around.

    Did you read my posts on this thread?? I've already stated I'm an atheist ........ next theory please :)


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    #770
    Cody montana
    Registered Users Posts: 5,268 ✭✭✭Cody montana


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    I hate "poor little victim me" type people ......... after you ;)

    What is a gay printers refused to print invitations for straight couples?
    What would you see this as?


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    #771
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    You're actually going to compare a gay man being turned away by a little print shop in Drogheda .......... to the Civil Rights Movement in 50's Deep South Alabama??? Laughable!! :D

    Why is it laughable?

    Gay people are denied rights that heterosexual people take for granted. The right to have their own family is probably one of the most fundamental of all human needs for many people. Equality for LGBT people is one of the last great battles the west needs to fight before we can truly consider ourselves to be civilised.


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    #772
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Cody montana wrote: »
    What is a gay printers refused to print invitations for straight couples?
    What would you see this as?

    Oh I dunno .......... their right to choice perhaps? :rolleyes:


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    #773
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Why is it laughable?

    Gay people are denied rights that heterosexual people take for granted. The right to have their own family is probably one of the most fundamental of all human needs for many people. Equality for LGBT people is one of the last great battles the west needs to fight before we can truly consider ourselves to be civilised.

    Taking away the rights of business owners to run their business as they see fit, infringing on their own personal religious beliefs ......... now that would be an uncivilised society ......... in my opinion of course


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    #774
    Cletus van_damme
    Registered Users Posts: 38 ✭Cletus van_damme


    Greenmachine wrote: »
    This is another argument that will go around in circle. A gay customer being refused a particular service is discrimination, refusing to serve them on the basis of their orientation is.

    What If I went to the printer and wanted to have something printed that some may consider obscene. One printer might be happy to print an image of the prophet Mohammed, a muslim printer would have a conscious objection to printing that. Have I been discriminated against.
    I could come up,with a personal characteristic like, my lack of a beard, my physical height, my disability even and say, I was refused service because I was disabled.
    Some people really are coming to the wrong conclusions. If the printer has now told the customer "don't come back, I don't want you gay money" there would be some point to be made.

    The printer refused service on the basis that they are bible believing Christians, which would be fine if they had been consistent. The fact is they have been printing things for a barbers for the last four years, so they have no problem printing something that for a business that goes against the bible by providing shaves and haircuts.

    I hope they have never done printing for a restaurant that sells shellfish, or for a divorced person, or for someone with a tattoo or anyone who eats pork. What are the odds that they refuse custom from anyone one of those groups based on being bible believing Christians?

    So the truth is they are happy to take money and go against the bible except when it comes to anything gay. That seems like their customers orientation is the only problem.


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    #775
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,710 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    gozunda wrote: »
    OEJ - the seeds of intolerance have long been sown and are blooming great thorny bushes at this stage - see the latest fundamentalists refusing to print a simple civil ceremony invite. These groups have already isolated themselves by using the text of 2000 year old narrative as building blocks.


    It may have escaped your attention, but far from isolating themselves, over 2.2 billion people are members of a Christian community, and that's not even accounting for the rest of the world's population which are members of other religious communities -

    http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html


    It may also have escaped your attention that not all people who oppose marriage equality are religious, I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and presume you've just never met an anti-religious homophobe? There's plenty of 'em about, but that's what happens when you assume that by default a person who is religious must be homophobic - such prejudices can often colour your perception and make you blind to things which don't jig with your world view.

    I agree that the blasphemy laws needed taking off the statute books. I have to ask one thing - are you advocating Cyber bullying as something that 'can't' be dealt with? Or is that just some random quote that wandered in?


    Nah, that was actually in response to this -

    K4t wrote: »
    Just on the last bit; social media will be the saviour of this generation for exactly the reasons you mention, it gives voice and platform to those who would not have had it in the past, and it allows all opinions to be aired, most importantly those that would be deemed too risqué or taboo for radio, print media or tv. It is the essence of the free speech marketplace.


    I believe cyberbulllying can be dealt with by encouraging people to show understanding and tolerance towards other poeple whose opinion they disagree with and to be mindful and respectful of other people's beliefs and ideas and so on.

    As an example, on this site alone, I thought it was disgusting the way a young member of the travelling community was treated when she agreed to participate in an AMA and the thread was spoiled by people who were prejudiced against members of the travelling community.


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    #776
    StewartGriffin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭StewartGriffin


    BreadnBuddha wrote: »
    What a pathetic contribution. You read this entire thread and that's the sum total of your thoughts on many challenging and intelligent opinions which have been shared, on a highly topical subject?

    Pot, Kettle, Black.

    Made a contribution earlier, Siddharta, Go dig it up if you can find it.
    Calling yourself Buddha is very ironic by the way.;)

    P.S.

    Challenging and intellectual opinions shared? Either you're reading a different thread or you belong in a creche.


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    #777
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Aye some people have no prospective at all, Especially When talking about hot topics on Social media.

    Yeah, what's the big deal. Its only a woman being asked to sit on a different seat on the bus. It wasn't discrimination, the bus driver would still have driven her to her destination....

    I'm not saying the situations are exactly the same, but to say they're totally incomparable is rubbish.

    Gay people have it better now than they did in the not so distant past when they were castrated after being 'convicted' of having homosexual relations (Alan Turing) but there is still a very vocal part of society that are every bit as offensive towards gay people as the white supremacists were towards the freed slaves in the U.S.

    The suicide rate in young homosexual and transgender people is frightening and attitudes like those expressed by the religious right in Ireland definitely contribute to this statistic.


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    #778
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    Agreed! Rosetta Stone didn`t land on the comet so people could be excluded


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    #779
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Taking away the rights of business owners to run their business as they see fit, infringing on their own personal religious beliefs ......... now that would be an uncivilised society ......... in my opinion of course

    But MadDog they DONT have the right do what they see fit. Businesses are regulated by laws. One of those laws is that they are not allowed to discriminate against customers according to certain criteria. They are free to hold whatever religous beliefs they wish but not to use them against their customers. Simple as.

    I'm dam sure I don't agree with all my customers in all things but I don't let that affect my business dealings with Them. To do so would be very stupid and shortsighted imo.


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    #780
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Did you read my posts on this thread?? I've already stated I'm an atheist ........ next theory please :)

    Its normally a pretty safe assumption to make that those opposed to gay marriage are religious, because there aren't really any obvious non religious reasons why anyone would oppose it.

    I'm not gonna guess what your reasons are, do you mind telling me?


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    #781
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Taking away the rights of business owners to run their business as they see fit, infringing on their own personal religious beliefs ......... now that would be an uncivilised society ......... in my opinion of course
    So you would support a shopkeeper who put up a sign that said 'We refuse to serve Black people'?

    Surely that's their right to run their business as they see fit?


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