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Another Company Discriminates Against Gays

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    #1232
    bb1234567
    Registered Users Posts: 5,501 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    reprise wrote: »
    What if I wanted to buy the invitations as a gift? I am not gay.

    Exactly, its a gift. They're not for you. The only people who need them is gay people.


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    #1233
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    Then they would have discriminated against you on the basis of perceived membership of the LGBT community. Much like I wouldn't get away with banning a traveled wedding if happened to stupidly luck out and mistake a settled family for travellers

    What if they know I am married, even a long time customer and it is obvious the invitations are not for me?


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    #1234
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    reprise wrote: »
    What if they know I am married, even a long time customer and it is obvious the invitations are not for me?



    They'd have to ask you do you want a good deal on divorce cards too :)


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    #1235
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    Exactly, its a gift. They're not for you. The only people who need them is gay people.

    Can you claim discrimination through a third party? How would that work? A class action on behalf of every gay person in Ireland?


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    #1236
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    reprise wrote: »
    My question, had you read or understood it, related to declining to provide a specific service, regardless of who requested it.

    Which equates to offering the same service to everyone in the English language.

    I won't offer a wheelchair service regardless of who requests it... its not discrimination Mr. Wheelchair user because I'd refuse to offer Mr Standing a wheelchair service if he asked for it. I am sure you feel equally respecting now don't you.


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    #1237
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    Which equates to offering the same service to everyone in the English language.

    I won't offer a wheelchair service regardless of who requests it... its not discrimination Mr. Wheelchair user because I'd refuse to offer Mr Standing a wheelchair service if he asked for it. I am sure you feel equally respecting now don't you.

    Are you saying it is discrimination not to have every taxi wheelchair accessible?


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    #1238
    Pumpkinseeds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,635 ✭✭✭Pumpkinseeds


    Zillah wrote: »
    The sole answer that arises is that a person's right to not be discriminated against is more important than a person's (non-existent) right to discriminate. This applies to homophobes that own printers and have gay customers, and to racists that own restaurants and have black patrons.

    When you understand why a racist restaurateur can't throw out black diners then you will understand why a homophobic printer can't turn away gay clients.

    Once again you're argument relies entirely on hypothetical's and racial comparisons. You clearly feel that the rights of the gay customer take precedence over the rights of the straight printer. Incidentally, the printer does have the Constitutional rights of Freedom of religious expression and a legal right to Privacy, both of which the customer quite clearly violated. Essentially it boils down to 2 people, a customer wanting invitations printed and a printer declining the order because it went against his beliefs.

    He didn't decline the offer because the customer was gay, he declined it because gay marriage goes against his religious beliefs.

    What you're saying is that descrimination is OK, so long as it's not the gay guy being discriminated against.


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    #1239
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    reprise wrote: »
    Are you saying it is discrimination not to have every taxi wheelchair accessible?

    Did I?


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    #1240
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    Did I?

    God only knows at this point. I honestly have no idea what you are on about.


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    #1241
    bb1234567
    Registered Users Posts: 5,501 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    reprise wrote: »
    Can you claim discrimination through a third party? How would that work? A class action on behalf of every gay person in Ireland?

    Why exactly are you defending these printers so passionately? You honestly believe they have no problem with gay people?


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    #1242
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Pumpkinseeds wrote: »
    Once again you're argument relies entirely on hypothetical's and racial comparisons.

    It doesn't whatsoever but the use of hypotheticals and comparisons... yeah that is called the art of argument and discussion. Can you explain why the use of hypotheticals/comparisons or illustrative examples is not acceptable to you in this instance?
    Pumpkinseeds wrote: »
    You clearly feel that the rights of the gay customer take precedence over the rights of the straight printer.

    Your need to frame this as a gay vs straight debate is peculiar. What if the printer is gay man who opposes civil unions?
    Pumpkinseeds wrote: »
    Incidentally, the printer does have the Constitutional rights of Freedom of religious expression and a legal right to Privacy, both of which the customer quite clearly violated.

    That is a fairly substantive assumption to make I'd be interested in the legal basis.
    Pumpkinseeds wrote: »
    Essentially it boils down to 2 people, a customer wanting invitations printed and a printer declining the order because it went against his beliefs.

    Essentially it boils down to a private business deciding on a religious basis who it must serve and in what manner. The law is quite settled in this regard, you are entitled to your religious belief within the confines of the law.


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    #1243
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    Why exactly are you defending these printers so passionately? You honestly believe they have no problem with gay people?

    The fact that they were happy to do business with the client for four years previous suggests the actual issue is the provision of a specific service, regardless of the client.


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    #1244
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    reprise wrote: »
    The facts are they were happy to do business with the client for four years previous suggests the actual issue is the provision of a specific service.

    Yeah they were happy for years until his sexuality became an issue at which point they refused.


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    #1245
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    Yeah they were happy for years until his sexuality became an issue at which point they refused.

    Which is the point we go full circle, so I will explain it all again.

    The printers don't print same sex wedding invitations for people who are straight, gay, old, young, black, orange, disabled, bald, etc etc.


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    #1246
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    ok, I will attempt to make this very simple so not even you can attempt to twist it.

    I am not trying to twist anything which is why I have tried to avoid analogies the real issue doesn't need. But to be polite:
    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    The hotel has rooms, the printer has invitations.

    Ok.
    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    The hotel refuses to provide its service to an interracial couple, the printer refuses to provide its service to a same sex couple.

    Well, we have established that the printers did business with this individual before so the analogy breaks down here. Lets say the hotel says it doesn't allow functions in private rooms and the printers says it doesn't print same sex marriage invitations.
    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    The hotel claims it doesnt provide interracial rooms so its not discrimination,

    We agreed that if this was the sole ground, it is discrimination right?
    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    the printer claims it doesnt provide same sex couples invitations.

    Yes, to everyone and anyone, equally. Just as the hotel applies its rule on functions equally.
    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    The hotel wouldnt give anyone an interracial room, the printer wont provide anyone with same sex marriage invites. Hence, its ok.

    Again, the analogy fails as the hotel had provided its services previously.
    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    People would see through the hotels pathetic attempt of hiding it and....

    The printers hid nothing. They gave their reasons.
    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    Im sure you can figure out the rest.

    ok.


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    #1247
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Again I will ask, Who broke what law ? There is already positive discrimination within the law people seem to be fine with that. It all hinges on being the current hot button group.


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    #1248
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Again I will ask, Who broke what law ? There is already positive discrimination within the law people seem to be fine with that. It all hinges on being the current hot button group.

    Yeah definitely and who doesn't love the sense of privilage that comes with having people refuse you service based on the fact that they think your love is sin.


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    #1249
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    Yeah definitely and who doesn't love the sense of privilage that comes with having people refuse you service based on the fact that they think your love is sin.

    They said that?

    Link please.


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    #1250
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Again I will ask, Who broke what law ? There is already positive discrimination within the law people seem to be fine with that. It all hinges on being the current hot button group.

    Good luck getting an answer to that.


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    #1251
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    They have no issue dealing with sinners, they just won't promote the sin ...........
    gozunda wrote: »
    You're funny. What like this one?



    But wait you never did explain your little dots .............

    I do hope you have a bed. Using it makes a person less likley to be tired. ;)

    I believe it was you who referred to homosexuals as "sinners" ........


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    #1252
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    reprise wrote: »
    They said that?

    Link please.

    ‘We, at Beulah Print, are Bible-believing Christians who are committed to standing by our conscience and God’s Word.’

    'We have never hidden our faith from our customers and represent the gospel at every opportunity.'


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    #1253
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    ‘We, at Beulah Print, are Bible-believing Christians who are committed to standing by our conscience and God’s Word.’

    'We have never hidden our faith from our customers and represent the gospel at every opportunity.'

    don't see love or Sin in that, Or are we having to interpret it to get something that is not there to support an agenda ?


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    #1254
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    don't see love or Sin in that, Or are we having to interpret it to get something that is not there to support an agenda ?

    :pac: Well thats the company's statement my friend what is it that it says to you?


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    #1255
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    :pac: Well thats the company's statement my friend what is it that it says to you?

    Nothing other than what's written in it I don't do elaborate leaps of logic, I'm not on either side, I would like this to be sorted out in the courts where it belongs. And not Trial by social media, As previously bad things happen to people that have not even broken a law.


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    #1256
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Nothing other than what's written in it I don't do elaborate leaps of logic, I'm not on either side, I would like this to be sorted out in the courts where it belongs. And not Trial by social media, As previously bad things happen to people that have not even broken a law.

    And what is written in it?


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    #1257
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    reprise wrote: »
    Which is the point we go full circle, so I will explain it all again.

    The printers don't print same sex wedding invitations for people who are straight, gay, old, young, black, orange, disabled, bald, etc etc.

    Black guy walks into his local, been a regular there for over four years, always enjoyed his usual pint and friendly chat with the barman ......... this particular night though he has had way more than one too many so the barman refuses him service on this occasion .......... the black guy screams racism ......... does he have a case?


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    #1258
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    And what is written in it?

    As darkpagandeath said, nothing you claimed.


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    #1259
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    And what is written in it?

    Standard kind of Christian stuff, I have no idea what flavour of Christian they are either so could not possibly comment and interpret it. On a side not interesting no reaction to the comment about it going before the courts.


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    #1260
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Black guy walks into his local, been a regular there for over four years, always enjoyed his usual pint and friendly chat with the barman ......... this particular night though he has had way more than one too many so the barman refuses him service on this occasion .......... the black guy screams racism ......... does he have a case?

    The tragedy is that you can't but help wonder if promoting inequality isn't the point.


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    #1261
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    I believe it was you who referred to homosexuals as "sinners" ........

    Where?

    You know what 'irony' is? It's like brassy but more so?

    You're still funny ...


This discussion has been closed.
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