Do grottos & statues of the virgin mary serve a purpose?

Cen taurus

Eramen wrote: »

Imagine if the Japanese or Koreans thought that way about about their Shinto or Buddhist shrines. These things are an intrinsic part of who they are and they still know and remember this. It seems only 'white people' forget who they are.. and put politics before their identity and cultural unity. Your way of thinking is completely backward, even though your ideology may tell you otherwise.

Brave words here

Into The Blue

Eramen wrote: »

Imagine if the Japanese or Koreans thought that way about about their Shinto or Buddhist shrines. These things are an intrinsic part of who they are and they still know and remember this, despite being highly advanced peoples.

It seems only 'white people' forget who they are just to be trendy.. and put politics before their identity and cultural unity. Therefore we end up lacking the direction and confident demeanor that only people secure in themselves can feel.

Ireland is rife with this under-confidence because we have abandoned our positive identities and replaced them with the bland sub-cultural/political nonsense. Your way of thinking is completely backward, even though your 'ideological brand' may tell you otherwise.

Maybe not that far of a throw back, eh? You think my comment smacked of under confidence? You see I grew up, (and my parents before me) in a home where confidence wasn't gained from outside influences, and have never felt the need to force my spirituality on anyone else.

Have a good day.

Willfarman

The purpose of these grotesque roadside monuments is to send a conscious and subconscious reminder to people of the overall presence and and domination of the Roman Catholic church..

Building these showed compliance With the Catholic state and the hamster brains that built them were looking for social recognition of their "holier than thou" craw thumping.

I would love to to see each and every statue replaced with a memorial to the abused, the murdered and the nameless children exported by this evil institutional monster callled the Catholic church.

PopePalpatine

Eramen wrote: »

Imagine if the Japanese or Koreans thought that way about about their Shinto or Buddhist shrines. These things are an intrinsic part of who they are and they still know and remember this, despite being highly advanced peoples.

It seems only 'white people' forget who they are just to be trendy.. and put politics before their identity and cultural unity. Therefore we end up lacking the direction and confident demeanor that only people secure in themselves can feel.

Ireland is rife with this under-confidence because we have abandoned our positive identities and replaced them with the bland sub-cultural/political nonsense. Your way of thinking is completely backward, even though your 'ideological brand' may tell you otherwise.

This reads like some nonsense from the likes of Alexandr Dugin.

galljga1

Eramen wrote: »

Imagine if the Japanese or Koreans thought that way about about their Shinto or Buddhist shrines. These things are an intrinsic part of who they are and they still know and remember this, despite being highly advanced peoples.

It seems only 'white people' forget who they are just to be trendy.. and put politics before their identity and cultural unity. Therefore we end up lacking the direction and confident demeanor that only people secure in themselves can feel.

Ireland is rife with this under-confidence because we have abandoned our positive identities and replaced them with the bland sub-cultural/political nonsense. Your way of thinking is completely backward, even though your 'ideological brand' may tell you otherwise.

I can only speak for myself and my immediate family:

These statues/grotoes mean nothing to me. They are as 'into the blue' stated, a throwback to another era, a time in which I certainly am glad I did not live.
They have nothing to do with my identity or culture. Whether they exist or not will not impact my confidence or how secure I feel in myself.

In the Ireland in which I currently live, a large proportion of the people no longer kau tau to the catholic church. They no longer have a blind faith in the invisible sky god. I see this ability to raise questions as increased confidence compared to previous generations who were afraid to question anything 'taught' by the church.

Yes, I am not too happy with what you term as 'the bland sub-cultural/political nonsense' but what positive identities we have abandoned, I am not sure. We may have abandoned the RCC in droves but if that means women are no longer treated as second class citizens by society (still a fair bit to go with that one) and the church is accountable to the law of the land (again, still a fair bit to go with that one), I count myself as a 'white trendy person'.

katydid

galljga1 wrote: »

We were discussing Ann Lovett's death. At least your posts citing attitudes in other countries gave me no reason to believe we were not, therefore, I inferred relevance to Ann Lovett from your posts. I am not sure what else I could have done.

Agreed, not every member of society was not influenced by the RCC and its teachings, just the vast majority of adults in the area, including those who would have been in regular contact with Ann at that age.

Yes, we were discussing Ann Lovett's death. But nowhere did I say that she was influenced by what went on in other countries. That is nonsense. You could have just NOT inferred something that wasn't there..

galljga1

katydid wrote: »

Yes, we were discussing Ann Lovett's death. But nowhere did I say that she was influenced by what went on in other countries. That is nonsense. You could have just NOT inferred something that wasn't there..

I give up. Why throw it into the conversation if it has nothing to do with what is being discussed?

yellowlabrador

What is cultural about the grottoes? I thought they went up after 1958?

galljga1

yellowlabrador wrote: »

What is cultural about the grottoes? I thought they went up after 1958?

Yes, a relatively recent addition to the landscape. I cannot say how prevalent they were before but the majority of the shrines and grottos in existance today were erected due to the Marian year in 1954.

When does a practice become part of culture, when is it no longer part of culture?

Are they cultural? They certainly were part of our culture, particularly during May when we would all parade merrily around the town saying the rosary stopping off to say a decade in front of one particular gobsh1tes house as he had a grotto in his garden. He actually fell out with the church (wasn't made deacon or something) and joined the free presbyterians - a bit of a radical given the religious and political views in the area at the time.

Eramen

Into The Blue wrote: »

Maybe not that far of a throw back, eh? You think my comment smacked of under confidence? You see I grew up, (and my parents before me) in a home where confidence wasn't gained from outside influences, and have never felt the need to force my spirituality on anyone else.

Have a good day.

No I don't think you are under-confident, I said Ireland is under-confident after decades of buying into a pathology of victimhood, whether it be borne out of British occupation, the RCC, DeValera's era, alcohol addiction or anything else.

The fact is we aren't victims any more. We are makers of our own destiny, and we attract what we are. The things that are not right about our country today stems from our own present inadequacy, not strictly those of the past (absolutely shocking I know).

Right now there are a number of so-called 'progressives' of a certain ideological bent who simply can't let the past go for reasons of promoting their petty beliefs. They would rather seek some outside force to blame rather than actually looking at their own shortcomings. This has always been the case with extreme forms of feminism, atheism, far left and right, lgbt and forms of Islam for example.

It's a cruel joke to say that Catholics are now 'shoving their spirituality' in our face when these aforementioned groups are far more apt to throw their ideology at you than almost any other. Their ideas now comprise the new political-religions of the modern west, and they play an immense role in the break-up of the social and cultural identity as people put political credos first and their natural, more innate, identity second. This effectively demolishes any sense of collective life or personality that we had before, as society becomes highly politicised, rendering us more and more alike to the situation that prevails in the USA .

I think we should let go of this self-conflicted mentality by throwing away this modern "something, something, holy Catholic Ireland' conspiracy theory for good. Because current Ireland is not being undermined by the latter, but instead by far more ordinary and everyday type of ignorant occurrences.

Also, those statues represented a social harmony on a certain level which existed in the past. Yet it appears that some people on this thread are simply incapable getting their heads around what we can actually learn from this prior state of harmony, and thereby forge a new, higher, more fair, social order in the future. The aforementioned political interests will continue to push their bland politics without a care for the general well-being of the group and they certainly don;t care for the 'sinners' of their ideology - people who question/disprove it like me. The thing is social harmony is unpolitical, something which ideologues refuse to recognise.

Real confidence comes from within the person, an outgrowth of their latent being. Outside sources of security are only ever temporary. Remember we are the same people today as we were at the time of the erection of the grotto's. Don't dismiss this too easily. The principle of continuance and collective identity based on noble ideals & duty is a potent force for the enactment of good. A socially and culturally atomised society that is estranged from its beginnings is set up for failure. History is replete with examples.

“Look well into thyself; there is a source of strength which will always spring up if thou wilt always look.” - Marcus Aurelius, Roman Emperor

looksee

Eramen wrote: »

No I don't think you are under-confident, I said Ireland is under-confident after decades of buying into a pathology of victimhood, whether it be borne out of British occupation, the RCC, DeValera's era, alcohol addiction or anything else.

The fact is we aren't victims any more. We are makers of our own destiny, and we attract what we are. The things that are not right about our country today stems from our own present inadequacy, not strictly those of the past (absolutely shocking I know).

Right now there are a number of so-called 'progressives' of a certain ideological bent who simply can't let the past go for reasons of promoting their petty beliefs. They would rather seek some outside force to blame rather than actually looking at their own shortcomings. This has always been the case with extreme forms of feminism, atheism, far left and right, lgbt and forms of Islam for example.

It's a cruel joke to say that Catholics are now 'shoving their spirituality' in our face when these aforementioned groups are far more apt to throw their ideology at you than almost any other. Their ideas now comprise the new political-religions of the modern west, and they play an immense role in the break-up of the social and cultural identity as people put political credos first and their natural, more innate, identity second. This effectively demolishes any sense of collective life or personality that we had before, as society becomes highly politicised, rendering us more and more alike to the situation that prevails in the USA .

I think we should let go of this self-conflicted mentality by throwing away this modern "something, something, holy Catholic Ireland' conspiracy theory for good. Because current Ireland is not being undermined by the latter, but instead by far more ordinary and everyday type of ignorant occurrences.

Also, those statues represented a social harmony on a certain level which existed in the past. Yet it appears that some people on this thread are simply incapable getting their heads around what we can actually learn from this prior state of harmony, and thereby forge a new, higher, more fair, social order in the future. The aforementioned political interests will continue to push their bland politics without a care for the general well-being of the group and they certainly don;t care for the 'sinners' of their ideology - people who question/disprove it like me. The thing is social harmony is unpolitical, something which ideologues refuse to recognise.

Real confidence comes from within the person, an outgrowth of their latent being. Outside sources of security are only ever temporary. Remember we are the same people today as we were at the time of the erection of the grotto's. Don't dismiss this too easily. The principle of continuance and collective identity based on noble ideals & duty is a potent force for the enactment of good. A socially and culturally atomised society that is estranged from its beginnings is set up for failure. History is replete with examples.

“Look well into thyself; there is a source of strength which will always spring up if thou wilt always look.” - Marcus Aurelius, Roman Emperor

So, we can't let go of the past, but loss of the influence of the RC church means we are losing the past which can teach us how to conduct society, and all isms are bad except for Catholicism. Am I understanding you so far?

Eramen

looksee wrote: »

So, we can't let go of the past, but loss of the influence of the RC church means we are losing the past which can teach us how to conduct society, and all isms are bad except for Catholicism. Am I understanding you so far?

Does the fact that everything about the Irish past cannot be categorised as 'evil/bad/wrong' bother you or something? Are we supposed to believe that everything about it or the church is 100% wrong and that there is no value to be found in it? Only blind ideology would dictate taking such a stance, and that one can't say anything positive at all about our recent past is quite telling of one's personal sense of victimisation..

Evil does not stem from religion or from a church or from a time period. I agree with Nietzsche when he says:

"Evil is anything that stems from weakness."

Knowing this, we should be wary in observing various interest groups that play on the modern Irish sense of past victimhood - which is an immense, unresolved weakness of ours - as they seek to profit from it, and in the process breed nothing but counter-productive cynicism and social disunity. 'Progressives' as well as the far left and right are especially guilty of this as I mentioned. I'm taking it that this is what 'provoked' you but it's true. To think that one is 'progessing' simply because we shed a form or institution that existed in the past is folly.

The kicker is that myself and others don't want to exist in politically divided society like in the States, a society that is incapable of moral or ethical leadership/unity whatsoever, where the power of money, popularity-contests and sleek-marketing dominate, all in the name of the 'party', the 'ideology' or the momentarily popular 'in-group'. Just no.. this kind of thing sets up a people for failure.

When a person is so self-absorbed that politics comes first, it effectively usurps their unique personality and the collective attachment found in others through this personality disappears. Because it's this attachment to the group which gives true belonging (culture). This is the reason that the sub-cultures/political are growing so rapidly - because some sections of society are now struggling simply to belong. This is what Durkheim called the Anomie a "condition in which society provides little moral guidance to individuals" due to the person's social disfranchisement.

We as Irish people must reject the notion that we are still amid conditional suffering because of outside forces that are controlling us from our history. Reject the sense of injury and the injury itself disappears. No amount of slander directed against what we essentially ARE will cure what ails us; it will only worsen the condition. I mentioned before, it's our own present failings and lack of harmony in the here and now that is the cause of our problems. The true Irish spirit and confidence will only arise once more when we regain the good in ourselves, including in our past, and see the bad contained in it also as a mistake, which we leave behind as we embrace the positive.

“Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom fate brings you together,but do so with all your heart.” - Marcus Aurelius

To do anything else, whether it's tagged 'progressive' or otherwise, breeds backwardness.

looksee

Eramen wrote: »

Does the fact that everything about the Irish past cannot be categorised as 'evil/bad/wrong' bother you or something? Are we supposed to believe that everything about it or the church is 100% wrong and that there is no value to be found in it? Only blind ideology would dictate taking such a stance, and that one can't say anything positive at all about our recent past is quite telling of one's personal sense of victimisation..

I wasn't offering an opinion one way or the other, I was commenting on the apparent contradictions in what you were saying. You seemed to be suggesting that 'progressives' (whatever they are) cannot let go of the past, but at the same time you are suggesting that the Catholic Church teachings which are absolutely rooted in the past are desirable. I just didn't understand how you could conclude that some kinds of looking back are damaging, and others are positive. And how does one decide which is which?

I haven't a clue what you are saying in the extract from your post above, but I fail to see how you conclude that the last sentence refers to anything I have said.

galljga1

Eramen wrote: »

Does the fact that everything about the Irish past cannot be categorised as 'evil/bad/wrong' bother you or something? Are we supposed to believe that everything about it or the church is 100% wrong and that there is no value to be found in it? Only blind ideology would dictate taking such a stance, and that one can't say anything positive at all about our recent past is quite telling of one's personal sense of victimisation..

Evil does not stem from religion or from a church or from a time period. I agree with Nietzsche when he says:

"Evil is anything that stems from weakness."

Knowing this, we should be wary in observing various interest groups that play on the modern Irish sense of past victimhood - which is an immense, unresolved weakness of ours - as they seek to profit from it, and in the process breed nothing but counter-productive cynicism and social disunity. 'Progressives' as well as the far left and right are especially guilty of this as I mentioned. I'm taking it that this is what 'provoked' you but it's true. To think that one is 'progessing' simply because we shed a form or institution that existed in the past is folly.

The kicker is that myself and others don't want to exist in politically divided society like in the States, a society that is incapable of moral or ethical leadership/unity whatsoever, where the power of money, popularity-contests and sleek-marketing dominate, all in the name of the 'party', the 'ideology' or the momentarily popular 'in-group'. Just no.. this kind of thing sets up a people for failure.

When a person is so self-absorbed that politics comes first, it effectively usurps their unique personality and the collective attachment found in others through this personality disappears. Because it's this attachment to the group which gives true belonging (culture). This is the reason that the sub-cultures/political are growing so rapidly - because some sections of society are now struggling simply to belong. This is what Durkheim called the Anomie a "condition in which society provides little moral guidance to individuals" due to the person's social disfranchisement.

We as Irish people must reject the notion that we are still amid conditional suffering because of outside forces that are controlling us from our history. Reject the sense of injury and the injury itself disappears. No amount of slander directed against what we essentially ARE will cure what ails us; it will only worsen the condition. I mentioned before, it's our own present failings and lack of harmony in the here and now that is the cause of our problems. The true Irish spirit and confidence will only arise once more when we regain the good in ourselves, including in our past, and see the bad contained in it also as a mistake, which we leave behind as we embrace the positive.

“Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom fate brings you together,but do so with all your heart.” - Marcus Aurelius

To do anything else, whether it's tagged 'progressive' or otherwise, breeds backwardness.

“Confine yourself to the present.” - Marcus Aurelius

Eramen

galljga1 wrote: »

“Confine yourself to the present.” - Marcus Aurelius

I don't think you understand what he means (if you are using it in such a way 'against' what I related above).

Marcus Aurelius was never against 'the past' or one's past. He embraced the past and what he was, recognising that the past culminates in us at the present moment, hence we embody it. The start of the Meditations is evidence enough of that.

He mentions there that we must find our proper relation to other things - whether of people, places, objects, ideas, the gods, emotions and the intellect - and how this can only be achieved when one measures oneself against an absolute principle, a superior source that provides direction and help in a world rife with perpetual self-ignorance.

If one can't understand/relate to his past life and history, he therefore has no understanding of his actions. In this way, by not having ownership over his own thoughts, he can't control his emotions, and if he can't control emotions he can't master the body - and so he will succumb to addiction, time-wasting, and suffering. Right thinking in a life devoted to the here and now comes from the recognition of the universal order of the cosmos, where one finds his 'presence' in superior action and self-control. This is how we end up finding that this absolute order is also contained within - the truest form of our past, present and future - the Soul.

So yes, I agree with the quote given the right context.

galljga1

Eramen wrote: »

I don't think you understand what he means (if you are using it in such a way 'against' what I related above).

Marcus Aurelius was never against 'the past' or one's past. He embraced the past and what he was, recognising that the past culminates in us at the present moment, hence we embody it. Chapter 1 of the Meditations is evidence enough of that.

He mentions there that we must find our proper relation to other things - whether of people, places, objects, ideas, the gods, emotions and the intellect - and how this can only be achieved when one measures oneself against an absolute principle, a superior source that provides direction and help in a world of perpetual self-ignorance.

I very much agree with the quote anyway.

Would you consider that response to be ever so slightly pompous?
Do you dwell in the past? Do you want to return to a time gone by? Maybe we all long for some elements of the past. Personally, I am happy in the present.

I will explain what understanding I take from the quote in simple english:
Our past is what made us who we are today. Somethings we wish had not happened, somethings we wish had happened but we cannot change that. Accept that you are a product of your past experiences and live your life today. Extrapolating from this I would say that the future is outside our control to a certain extent but by living as best we can in the present and preparing for the future, we can attain what we set out to.

A bit contradictory but that is life.

An absolute principle? A fundamental truth? I do not measure myself by either. A superior source that provides direction and help, yes we all need that. What exactly it is, is open to interpretation. Perpetual self-ignorance? I am not sure that it is possible. Surely the fact that we have intellect and can reason means we are self aware.

Just my rambling thoughts.

Willfarman

After the establishment of the free state there was an insecurity prevalent that was determined to eradicate any indication of our colonial past and heritage. It was a ludicrous notion and we lost so much of our real heritage due to our paranoia so yes may I'm wrong. Maybe the grottos are important and should stay.

Jesusaves

In the Bible Exodus chapter 20, the 2nd commandment clearly states:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.


These statues and images are not from God, HE doesn't want them. Read the Bible, it is God's manual to us on how we should live. Jesus is the only way to Heaven. Jesus said it himself ' I am the way the truth and the life'.

Cen taurus

Jesusaves wrote: »

In the Bible Exodus chapter 20, the 2nd commandment clearly states:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Oh look, the taliban are here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ9wvHq3eQ8

First of all you don't understand, or want to understand the word graven, which is an object that is whorshiped as a God. Secondly no one is whorshipping Mary, never mind a statue.

But there’s no idolatry going on. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics, every time they put a picture of Jesus, or any bible charater in a magazine or Sunday school book.

And if you knew scripture, instead of anti-catholic cartoon pamplets, you'd know this :

"And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19).

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes carved images in the idealised temple he was shown "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).

Jesusaves

Anything that takes the focus off of Jesus is an idol. Mary is worshipped as Co-Redemptrix, when Jesus alone paid the price for sin. The devil is a deciever of many.
Mary acknowledged she needed a saviour.

Luke 1v 46-47 Mary said : “My soul glorifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour.


Psalm 115v4-8:
4Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

5They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:

6They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
7They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

8They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.


Jesus said 'repent'. Turn from your sin and ask for forgiveness and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, that He died for you and you will be saved.
Many are on their way to hell and think their good works will save them But only Jesus can!

Cen taurus

Jesusaves wrote: »

Anything that takes the focus off of Jesus is an idol.

Anything ? right oh. How about a Ford Focus ?

Mary is worshipped as Co-Redemptrix - Complete sectarian rubbish

Do you even know what the word worship means ?

Our Lady is no way devine, or given any worship whatsoever.

She is good enough for Jesus, she's good enough for me.

hinault

Jesusaves wrote: »

Anything that takes the focus off of Jesus is an idol. Mary is worshipped as Co-Redemptrix, when Jesus alone paid the price for sin. The devil is a deciever of many.
Mary acknowledged she needed a saviour.

Luke 1v 46-47 Mary said : “My soul glorifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour.


Psalm 115v4-8:
4Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

5They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:

6They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
7They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

8They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.


Jesus said 'repent'. Turn from your sin and ask for forgiveness and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, that He died for you and you will be saved.
Many are on their way to hell and think their good works will save them But only Jesus can!

Incorrect.

Mary isn't worshiped.

Believers invoke Mary to help petition God on our behalf, along with our prayers to God.
Believers recognise that God is the only source of sanctifying Grace.

johnny osbourne

the Blessed Virgin

zarquon

hinault wrote: »

Incorrect.

Mary isn't worshiped.

Believers invoke Mary to help petition God on our behalf, along with our prayers to God.
Believers recognise that God is the only source of sanctifying Grace.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" - 1 Timothy 2:5

hinault

zarquon wrote: »

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" - 1 Timothy 2:5

The only one here making mention (misrepresentation) of a mediator, is you.

Another of your cackhanded attempts.

zarquon

hinault wrote: »

The only one here making mention (misrepresentation) of a mediator, is you.

Another of your cackhanded attempts.

Why do you refuse intelligent debate. Why not discuss the merit of the scripture i quoted? What is your interpretation of the scripture. Your "cack handed" insult is ironic as it convery ineptitude but i am providing scripture to support my points and you are providing insults and denegration to support your points.

I have a scriptural basis for believing that Mary should not be a mediator to God. This is the discussion and i would like to see your scriptural support for your position. There seems to be a pattern where you are bested in a debate you resert to mocking to divert the conversation.

Cen taurus

zarquon wrote: »

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" - 1 Timothy 2:5

That's correct only when quoted in context, not out of context.

People can and do ask other people to pray for them as well.

keano_afc

Cen taurus wrote: »

That's correct only when quoted in context, not out of context.

People can and do ask other people to pray for them as well.

Yes, and that person then prays to God. Asking people to pray for you is fine because they actually hear you. Mary can not hear our prayers.

Cen taurus

keano_afc wrote: »

Yes, and that person then prays to God. Asking people to pray for you is fine because they actually hear you. Mary can not hear our prayers.

Exactly as Catholics do, we pray to directly to God the same as everyone else does, and we ask others to pray for us as well.

As usual you only know the parts of scripture you've been taught to misquote for sectarianism, the rest you ignore.

Firstly, you're supposed to know all of scripture, not just taking quotes out of context in an attempt to spin sectarianism, and as a side note, you won't find the protestant doctrine of sola scriptura anywhere in scripture, quite the opposite in fact.

Scripture does directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Now that is clear example of asking those in heaven to pray. Now, the angels are not alone in heaven.

Luke 20:35-36: "but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."

Romans 8:38-39 "For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

1 Corinthians 6:17: But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

homer911

Cen taurus wrote: »

you won't find the protestant doctrine of sola scriptura anywhere in scripture, quite the opposite in fact.

If you want to discuss sola scripture lets open another thread - past popes are on record supporting sola scripture

hinault

zarquon wrote: »

Why do you refuse intelligent debate

There is nothing to debate. Intelligent or otherwise.

keano_afc

Cen taurus wrote: »

Exactly as Catholics do, we pray to directly to God the same as everyone else does, and we ask others to pray for us as well.

As usual you only know the parts of scripture you've been taught to misquote for sectarianism, the rest you ignore.

Firstly, you're supposed to know all of scripture, not just taking quotes out of context in an attempt to spin sectarianism, and as a side note, you won't find the protestant doctrine of sola scriptura anywhere in scripture, quite the opposite in fact.

Scripture does directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Now that is clear example of asking those in heaven to pray. Now, the angels are not alone in heaven.

Luke 20:35-36: "but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."

Romans 8:38-39 "For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

1 Corinthians 6:17: But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

Nothing you have quoted tells us to pray to angels. Do those in heaven exalt God? Yes. Absolutely. But I'm confused as how you reason from that that we are called to pray to them. They cannot hear us.

Cen taurus

keano_afc wrote: »

Nothing you have quoted tells us to pray to angels. Do those in heaven exalt God? Yes. Absolutely. But I'm confused as how you reason from that that we are called to pray to them. They cannot hear us.

Again, either you don't understand the meaning of the word pray ( the word pray means to ask e.g. pray tell ), or you want to keep ignoring what was posted.

Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Both these prayers are addressed to the angels and the heavens, encouraging them, and supporting them to praise God.

Roger Buck

Question: Do grottos & statues of the virgin mary serve a purpose?

Answer: Among other things, they are an antidote to the McDonaldisation of the world.

That is, they serve as a reminder that Ireland isn't still fully part of the capitalist Anglo-American establishment.

(I'm an American in Ireland btw - saddened to see what my culture has done to yours.)

katydid

Roger Buck wrote: »

Question: Do grottos & statues of the virgin mary serve a purpose?

Answer: Among other things, they are an antidote to the McDonaldisation of the world.

That is, they serve as a reminder that Ireland isn't still fully part of the capitalist Anglo-American establishment.

(I'm an American in Ireland btw - saddened to see what my culture has done to yours.)

Oh well, that's alright then. Very useful.

pueblo

I find these types of threads can get very 'tower of Babel' after a while...

“We must remember this when we are ready to reach for the sky.
God came down and confused man's language and scattered them.”

― Toba Beta, My Ancestor Was an Ancient Astronaut