Stop out of control drinking

Calina

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

The majority of these instances happen after 2 AM, is there intangible costs associated with sleep or having sex?

that is what most family/friends would have been doing if they did not end up in A&E because of said incident.

Seriously dude, which would you prefer, to be asleep/having sex or sitting in the A&E in Beaumont?

That's like an opportunity cost in terms of sleep/sex in favour of sitting in a waiting room. If you're happy to consider being in a waiting room as being equivalent in life terms to sex or sleep, go for it. Personally I don't and my life is improved by not having to go to A&E in the main.

Magnate

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

The majority of these instances happen after 2 AM, is there intangible costs associated with sleep or having sex?

that is what most family/friends would have been doing if they did not end up in A&E because of said incident.

Nothing Good Happens After 2 A.M

Baby Jane

I agree with abnormalising getting so wasted on shots, wine, cocktails etc that you collapse or get into fights, and then spend hours vomiting and are sick in bed for the next day.
It's poisoning yourself - why not emphasise this?

That's different to getting a bit drunk from a few beers.

Ted_YNWA

Calina wrote: »

Seriously dude, which would you prefer, to be asleep/having sex or sitting in the A&E in Beaumont?

That's like an opportunity cost in terms of sleep/sex in favour of sitting in a waiting room. If you're happy to consider being in a waiting room as being equivalent in life terms to sex or sleep, go for it. Personally I don't and my life is improved by not having to go to A&E in the main.

You said that there was intangible costs implied, I was trying to figure out where they are coming from.

Of course I would prefer to be anywhere except A&E at any hour.

Fakediamond

The issue is that the "out of control" drinkers are problem drinkers and it's likely that their drinking will affect other areas of their lives too, work, relationships, anti-social behaviour.

We need to stop thinking that it's "craic" and see it for what it is - sad lives really.

As for expecting the drinks industry to tackle it - would you ask a heroin dealer to sell more responsibly and expect a positive response? I don't think so.

conorh91

darkpagandeath wrote: »

wonder how much courts regular customers cost you know guys with 150 previous convictions. Free legal aid and all that, bet its the bulk of the cost.

Most public order offences don't require legal aid, or even legal representation.

The criminal legal aid bill is about 50 million euro: about 0.05% of the alcohol-related crime costs. Most of criminal-justice related costs are from additional Garda time and resources, damage to property, etc.

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

Judges are paid the same if they have 1 case on the day or 50.

Read the report. The costs to the courts is absolutely minimal. In fact, you could exclude it and it wouldn't be noticed.

There was a hiring freeze until recently in the guards, again they are not paid on an incident basis.

The point is not necessarily an issue of labour costs (even though it is, through overtime, and the alcohol-related hiring needs prior to the public service recruitment embargo) but also the allocation of resources. For example, Gardai being unable to give adequate attention to non-violent burglaries, or are unable to detect those crimes, because there are too many members of the force patrolling the city streets at night time on foot or by car, which is a waste of resources.

A&E may be busier, but nurses are paid the same regardless how busy they are.

No, nurses and doctors are paid overtime as required, and extra staff: agency staff, are notoriously expensive.

Waiting time increase cannot have a monetary value placed on it.

Of course it can. Resource allocation again. If I injure my leg in rugby and I end up in A&E, but cannot be seen until 5am because of the drunks causing a bottleneck, then I'm going to take the next day off work.

Multiply that by every other person who is delayed in A&E, or in-patients whose treatment is delayed, or cancelled, because of staffing and financial pressures in A&E.

Magnate

Baby Jane wrote: »

I agree with abnormalising getting so wasted on shots, wine, cocktails etc that you collapse or get into fights, and then spend hours vomiting and are sick in bed for the next day.
It's poisoning yourself - why not emphasise this?

That's different to getting a bit drunk from a few beers.

While I agree with you, it's also possible to drink spirits/wines in moderation and I don't think we should stigmatise these. I've seen just as many people collapsing/getting into fights having been drinking beer all night. I much prefer the taste of a good tequila and I find the hangovers to be non existent too, whereas a few beers would wreck me the next day.

darkpagandeath

conorh91 wrote: »

Most public order offences don't require legal aid, or even legal representation.

The criminal legal aid bill is about 50 million euro: about 0.05% of the alcohol-related crime costs. Most of criminal-justice related costs are from additional Garda time and resources, damage to property, etc.

Read the report. The costs to the courts is absolutely minimal. In fact, you could exclude it and it wouldn't be noticed.

The point is not necessarily an issue of labour costs (even though it is, through overtime, and the alcohol-related hiring needs prior to the public service recruitment embargo) but also the allocation of resources. For example, Gardai being unable to give adequate attention to non-violent burglaries, or are unable to detect those crimes, because there are too many members of the force patrolling the city streets at night time on foot or by car, which is a waste of resources.

No, nurses and doctors are paid overtime as required, and extra staff: agency staff, are notoriously expensive.

Of course it can. Resource allocation again. If I injure my leg in rugby and I end up in A&E, but cannot be seen until 5am because of the drunks causing a bottleneck, then I'm going to take the next day off work.

Multiply that by every other person who is delayed in A&E, or in-patients whose treatment is delayed, or cancelled, because of staffing and financial pressures in A&E.

Are these the same estimated figures being used ? You seem to be under the impression actual crime is the lowest cost. I can assure you it's not.

Ted_YNWA

I think we may be dragging the thread off topic over what is costing the Exchequer & what is costing Society as a whole.

I have been in clubs on the continent that were open to 6 AM, & there were people coming & going the whole time. We left at 3 AM & people were coming in.

It is seen as sociably acceptable to drink double figures in pints or shorts on a night out here. If you don't partake in rounds, you are deemed a lightweight.

darkpagandeath

Mr.S wrote: »

It just wouldn't work here.

Can you imagine the carnage of letting <18 year olds to legally drink!? Those groups of teens you see drinking on the streets, in bars and clubs, legally...:eek:

Yes, it works in other countries, but they (for the most part) have a better drinking culture then us.

Ireland is in the "drink as much as you can in the quickest amount of time" mentality, other countries - who often have higher consumption rates the us - don't.

Change the culture of drinking here then lower the age, not before!

Again that's price and stupid laws governing opening times and all that.

Baby Jane

Magnate wrote: »

While I agree with you, it's also possible to drink spirits/wines in moderation and I don't think we should stigmatise these. I've seen just as many people collapsing/getting into fights having been drinking beer all night. I much prefer the taste of a good tequila and I find the hangovers to be non existent too, whereas a few beers would wreck me the next day.

Sorry yes of course - it is obviously possible for someone to drink spirits without blacking out and waking up in a pool of vomit. I enjoy rum myself, and sparkly wine, and cocktails.

I just used drinks containing higher levels of alcohol to illustrate my point, it's probably harder to get that wasted on beer (although not impossible).

EoghanIRL

I also feel that drink is used as a reward. For example if you finish work/exams at christmas then people tend to go for the 12 pubs type thing. Which is 12 drinks in a short period of time. Most people I know wouldn't be in a great state after 12 pints or shots in a night. This type of drinking definitely leads to aggression and passing out.

It was mentioned earlier that in Ireland some people ,specifically younger people , go out to get plastered drunk rather than enjoying the companies of their friends. I'm a college student and see it all the time. Every thursday and tuesday night is get as drunk as you possibly can night.

This isn't enjoying alcohol wisely!

EoghanIRL

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

I think we may be dragging the thread off topic over what is costing the Exchequer & what is costing Society as a whole.

I have been in clubs on the continent that were open to 6 AM, & there were people coming & going the whole time. We left at 3 AM & people were coming in.

It is seen as sociably acceptable to drink double figures in pints or shorts on a night out here. If you don't partake in rounds, you are deemed a lightweight.

This just highlights how social status plays such a large role in the culture.

Richard Hillman

Some people have to control their drinking, most people dont. The people that dont, shouldnt have to suffer because of those who need to. There should be stiffer sentences for drunken crimes. Being drunk shouldnt be a defence, it should be an add on to the crime.

Ted_YNWA

EoghanIRL wrote: »

This just highlights how social status plays such a large role in the culture.

have also seen, when someone does slow down the intake, people still include them in the round so drinks are building up in front of them. This forces them effectively to "catch-up".

martingriff

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

have also seen, when someone does slow down the intake, people still include them in the round so drinks are building up in front of them. This forces them effectively to "catch-up".

Someone has a gun to there head. OR I know this may be a rogue suggestion do not drink them

Ted_YNWA

martingriff wrote: »

Someone has a gun to there head. OR I know this may be a rogue suggestion do not drink them

Not everyone has the willpower to say no to Peer Pressure.

hatrickpatrick

Hollis Hurlbut wrote: »

Sexual repression? Inhibitions? You're reading way too much into it and you sound like you're just making things up to be honest.

My family is from another European country and are very religious. No sexual repression and no desire by any of them to get hammered every week.

What has religion got to do with anything? You've just said, "no sexual repression and no desire by any of them to get hammered", which would actually imply that my hypothesis is correct. If you're not repressed, you don't need to chemically hide your inhibitions.

Egginacup

EoghanIRL wrote: »

I heard http://www.rolemodels.ie/ radio add earlier today.

Personally i think that Ireland's drinking culture is well established and needs to change. It is especially bad amongst young people , specifically in college students. I'm also of the opinion that alcohol is ok if enjoyed sensibly but the norm in Ireland for a long time now is binge drinking. I don't see why alcohol abuse is seen as being more acceptable than any other type of drug abuse in Ireland. I think that a change in the population's attitude to alcohol could only be a good thing and that the benefits would by far outweigh the disadvantages. Seeing how alcohol links in with many other problems also such as the high rate in male suicide , depression and so on.

I think a campaign that would try and tackle our drink culture and that would change our drinking habits would be very welcome if it could make some well needed changes.

Do we need to change our drink culture?

How can you change Ireland's drink culture? I don't think it's possible in the slightest.
Irish people are beerheads plain and simple. We are not loners. We like company and chatting and if you are lonely you go to the pub and drink and talk to people, even if it's just the barman.
Also lad culture is nothing new. Males always had a skinfull before trying to get into someone's knickers in Ireland. The Irish associate alcohol with good things, fun, company, romance, shagging. It's hard to get people to quit booze when they psychologically connect being a bit drunk with the aforementioned. Irish people wouldn't sit home on a Friday night and down 10 cans of Heineken on their own and then go to bed so it's not the drink alone that is the factor but rather what's associated with the booze, i.e. the possibility of getting into bed (or at least a good snog/grope session and a phone number) with someone and failing that then at least a load of jokes with friends as well as leering at members of the opposite sex.

In short, booze in Ireland is part of the mating ritual for the majority of people. Of all the girlfriends/flings that I've had, only 3 or 4 were from completely day-to-day encounters (at work, friend's house, one I met in a shop). The rest were met in a bar/club or we got together after a few scoops.

Shenshen

Egginacup wrote: »

How can you change Ireland's drink culture? I don't think it's possible in the slightest.
Irish people are beerheads plain and simple. We are not loners. We like company and chatting and if you are lonely you go to the pub and drink and talk to people, even if it's just the barman.
Also lad culture is nothing new. Males always had a skinfull before trying to get into someone's knickers in Ireland. The Irish associate alcohol with good things, fun, company, romance, shagging. It's hard to get people to quit booze when they psychologically connect being a bit drunk with the aforementioned. Irish people wouldn't sit home on a Friday night and down 10 cans of Heineken on their own and then go to bed so it's not the drink alone that is the factor but rather what's associated with the booze, i.e. the possibility of getting into bed (or at least a good snog/grope session and a phone number) with someone and failing that then at least a load of jokes with friends as well as leering at members of the opposite sex.

In short, booze in Ireland is part of the mating ritual for the majority of people. Of all the girlfriends/flings that I've had, only 3 or 4 were from completely day-to-day encounters (at work, friend's house, one I met in a shop). The rest were met in a bar/club or we got together after a few scoops.

So a good approach would be to start providing other possibilities and locations to socialise and have a good time. Cafes being open past 6pm would be a fantastic start, in my opinion.

grundie

You need a carrot and a stick approach. The carrot being more liberal opening hours for pubs coupled with financial incentives for pubs and clubs to adopt practices that reduce excessive drinking. Shift the profit focus away from primarily selling booze towards providing a safe social facility.

The stick would be a ban on rounds being purchased. This would eliminate a lot of peer pressure issues and binges just before chucking out time. Also, if you do get in trouble and try to use alcohol as an excuse then you should automatically get the maximum sentence.

Something similar has happened before. The Carlisle State Management Scheme managed to change drinking culture for the better, until it was privatised.

Lyaiera

I was in the pub just after Christmas, sitting at the bar chatting to some friends. A guy next to me got involved and after a few minutes began asking me why I was drinking slowly, and then making more comments on my drinking pace. That kind of stuff pisses me right off. The same with someone saying, "No, I'll have a coffee" or a coke, and getting trouble for it. I absolutely hate the idea that someone choosing to not down pints is an issue. I've even seen people spike other people's non-alcoholic drinks with spirits, and the spiker was too drunk to realise that someone can tell if their coke has an added shot of vodka in it.

I absolutely enjoy alcohol, including for it's narcotic effect. I think a lot of people simply don't realise the effect it's had on them. It can take me two hours to drink four glasses of good beer, but if i was to have two pints in an hour I'd feel it very quickly. Even at my slow pace I can feel the effect of the two pints over two hours on me, and I'm in no way a small person.

Shenshen

grundie wrote: »

You need a carrot and a stick approach. The carrot being more liberal opening hours for pubs coupled with financial incentives for pubs and clubs to adopt practices that reduce excessive drinking. Shift the profit focus away from primarily selling booze towards providing a safe social facility.

The stick would be a ban on rounds being purchased. This would eliminate a lot of peer pressure issues and binges just before chucking out time. Also, if you do get in trouble and try to use alcohol as an excuse then you should automatically get the maximum sentence.

Something similar has happened before. The Carlisle State Management Scheme managed to change drinking culture for the better, until it was privatised.

I wouldn't even go that far, if anything I'd try a "carrot only" approach. Provide alternatives to the pubs - Europe has a thriving cafe scene, if you want to go out but don't fancy alcohol, you meet up in a cafe. You don't even have this option in Ireland, the cafes close at 6pm on the dot, you usually get the evil eye from the staff if you dare order a cup of tea at 5.45.

Also, the selections of non-alcoholic drinks in pubs is simply woeful. It's either water, or fizzy sugar water. It would be great if that could be made more interesting - a national competition for bartenders to create the best alcohol-free cocktail? A brother of a good freind of mine is a bartender in Germany, he offered his services at a wedding I went to not too long ago. Half his menu card was alcohol free. I couldn't have alcohol because I was driving, and after trying the first cocktail I felt actually quite happy about that.

I don't think there is any need for yet more legislation - it'll only cost money to enforce, and people don't like being told they aren't allowed to do something. We'd get much further if we got a bit creative and came up with very good alternatives, give people more options.

Turpentine

Shenshen wrote: »

I wouldn't even go that far, if anything I'd try a "carrot only" approach. Provide alternatives to the pubs - Europe has a thriving cafe scene, if you want to go out but don't fancy alcohol, you meet up in a cafe. You don't even have this option in Ireland, the cafes close at 6pm on the dot, you usually get the evil eye from the staff if you dare order a cup of tea at 5.45.

Also, the selections of non-alcoholic drinks in pubs is simply woeful. It's either water, or fizzy sugar water. It would be great if that could be made more interesting - a national competition for bartenders to create the best alcohol-free cocktail? A brother of a good freind of mine is a bartender in Germany, he offered his services at a wedding I went to not too long ago. Half his menu card was alcohol free. I couldn't have alcohol because I was driving, and after trying the first cocktail I felt actually quite happy about that.

I don't think there is any need for yet more legislation - it'll only cost money to enforce, and people don't like being told they aren't allowed to do something. We'd get much further if we got a bit creative and came up with very good alternatives, give people more options.

As privately run enterprises interested in making money, I'm sure they would stay open if the demand was there. Apparently it is not.

Shenshen

Turpentine wrote: »

As privately run enterprises interested in making money, I'm sure they would stay open if the demand was there. Apparently it is not.

As privately run enterprises, they should have an interest in generating demand, surely?

Kev_2012

Give pubs the option to have a cheaper alcohol licence and serve cheaper alcohol if they serve a full food menu during their opening hours.

Increase cost in offies.

Get rid of the opening/closing hours, well, make them more easy going.

Cap pricing in pubs so that the price difference is much smaller between drinking at home and going to a bar.


One thing that wrecks my head when I go to the pub is not being able to get a proper meal in most places. If I'm out with a group of people, I wanna be able to eat in the pub were in rather than have to leave to go get something to eat. A lot of people (myself included) would normally elect to either have a bag of taytos or skip food.

Other issues I have with pubs in Ireland is the music is always insanely loud! As in to the point where you can't even talk! Also, I'd like to see all seated pubs too with servers, like US or Canada. Nothing more annoying than going into the pub and barely being able to move and you are blessed if you find seats, but then have to go up and get booze constantly.

I'd much rather tip a server and stay at my table and get food too.

kunst nugget

Egginacup wrote: »

Irish people wouldn't sit home on a Friday night and down 10 cans of Heineken on their own and then go to bed so it's not the drink alone that is the factor

Just because you're not doing it doesn't mean there ain't plenty of people in this country doing exactly this. Alcohol is used as a form of self-medication for psychological problems by loads of people in this country, it isn't all about the craic.

Nothing wrong with going out with your mates, having a skinful and having a laugh but I think it's a bit blinkered to imagine that that's all there is to Ireland's drinking culture.

Kev_2012

Kev_2012 wrote: »

One thing that wrecks my head when I go to the pub is not being able to get a proper meal in most places. If I'm out with a group of people, I wanna be able to eat in the pub were in rather than have to leave to go get something to eat. A lot of people (myself included) would normally elect to either have a bag of taytos or skip food.

To be honest pubs that do a full menu are often not great for just drinking and tend to often be less craic.

I would very rarely spend much time in pubs that serve lots of food, pop in for food maybe have one extra drink and then move on to a standard pub, I think food pubs just don't have the same atmosphere and I am a person who in general prefers to eat before and after drinking rather than during it as you get stomached if you eat too much while drinking.

A lot of pubs are now doing pizza or allowing you order in pizza, I think is a good compromise as people can have some quick no fuss food without the pub getting that restaurant feel.

Noobascious

Gettin locked is easier than having a partner. If u want to give it up and have no money ur entering rapist territory. Or suicide. Depends how much of a cocksucker u are.

Jamsiek

Kev_2012 wrote: »

If I'm out with a group of people, I wanna be able to eat in the pub were in rather than have to leave to go get something to eat.

Yes, not enough pubs in Ireland give this option IMO

Kev_2012 wrote: »

Other issues I have with pubs in Ireland is the music is always insanely loud! As in to the point where you can't even talk!

Agreed, same with many pubs in the UK, terrible for an atmosphere

Kev_2012 wrote: »

Also, I'd like to see all seated pubs too with servers, like US or Canada. Nothing more annoying than going into the pub and barely being able to move and you are blessed if you find seats, but then have to go up and get booze constantly.
I'd much rather tip a server and stay at my table and get food too.

This too, it's always nice to have someone looking after the table so nobody needs to get up when ordering drinks. It keeps the conversation going too.
It can also mean you get drunk more quickly though

SEPT 23 1989

Kev_2012 wrote: »

Give pubs the option to have a cheaper alcohol licence and serve cheaper alcohol if they serve a full food menu during their opening hours.

Increase cost in offies.

Get rid of the opening/closing hours, well, make them more easy going.

Cap pricing in pubs so that the price difference is much smaller between drinking at home and going to a bar.


One thing that wrecks my head when I go to the pub is not being able to get a proper meal in most places. If I'm out with a group of people, I wanna be able to eat in the pub were in rather than have to leave to go get something to eat. A lot of people (myself included) would normally elect to either have a bag of taytos or skip food.

Other issues I have with pubs in Ireland is the music is always insanely loud! As in to the point where you can't even talk! Also, I'd like to see all seated pubs too with servers, like US or Canada. Nothing more annoying than going into the pub and barely being able to move and you are blessed if you find seats, but then have to go up and get booze constantly.

I'd much rather tip a server and stay at my table and get food too.

A proper pub does not serve food

Jamsiek

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

A proper pub does not serve food

In your opinion
Go to any decent sized city and the majority of them do

gctest50

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

A proper pub does not serve food

pubs/inns years ago had stabling n food for your horses and drink n food for you

Item, a capon, … 2s. 2d. Item, sauce, … 4d.
Item, sack, two gallons, … 5s. 8d.
Item, anchovies and sack after supper, , , , 2s. 6d.
Item, bread, ob.

darkpagandeath

Jamsiek wrote: »

In your opinion
Go to any decent sized city and the majority of them do

Depends on what people mean, public house, tavern, licence premises, bar. Don't see many places now getting people to leather down gin to get as drunk as possible as fast as possible.

bb1234567

the_monkey wrote: »

It's not though, mind you people in Spain go out and 10 people sit around a glass of water - but thats just being tight cúnts..

Maybe the adults..I don't know. But teenagers and young people all around europe pretty much drink the same amounts.

Kev_2012

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

A proper pub does not serve food

I used to think that too until I hit 24/25 and decided that I'd like to remember the night, not be getting sick the next day and feel like crap all the time.

The places that serve food in Ireland usually only do so until about 6/7 if you're lucky which ain't good, even the option to have a basket of chicken wings or chips or something would be good. A small bit of finger food twice a year or a bag of taytos just doesn't cut the mustard AFAIAC