Phoenix Park tunnel: 4 trains per hour from 2016

end of the road

thomasj wrote: »

If you cannot fill a 4-coach intercity train on a commuter service, there is something seriously wrong.

Commuter trains on maynooth line and northern line carry 3-4 times the capacity of an intercity railcar set.

Docklands trains sure are leaving people behind on platforms because these trains they are using haven't got the capacity.

In fairness though it is a start but tbh you shouldn't be using intercity trains on a commuter line.

correct. of course this is well known by all but as i have said time and time again don't expect it to change. IE'S shambolic operational whatever in terms of how it uses it's stock comes before actual realities on the railway.

Marlay

cowboyjoe wrote: »

At this stage there are no seats left by Clondalkin, and standing room only on the evening return I'm on.

Is that standing room only in the evening from GCD? Had been thinking of trying this route, but that doesn't sound great.

I'd look at going to Heuston, but the evening times to Hazelhatch are fairly rubbish. Why no train between 16:40 and 17:28? And then nothing again until 18:05!

kc56

Marlay wrote: »

Is that standing room only in the evening from GCD? Had been thinking of trying this route, but that doesn't sound great.

I'd look at going to Heuston, but the evening times to Hazelhatch are fairly rubbish. Why no train between 16:40 and 17:28? And then nothing again until 18:05!

No - Connolly. Loads of room at Tara St. I think it applies more to the Newbridge than the Hazelhatch trains; lots of demand from Sallins.

tabbey

I was on this service this morning, 0749 ex GCD, return on 0835 from Hazelhatch. A four car ICR.

I had expected the 0835 to be well patronised, but my vehicle was at most a quarter full, even between Parkwest and Drumcondra.

Another ICR called at Hazelhatch about 0830, about 90% full, with people from Sallins, Newbridge etc. Given the provincial bus strike, this did not seem as busy as it might be.

Perhaps some of the earlier trains are more loaded, but on the DART route and northern commuter services, trains are jammed until well after 0900.

thomasj

irish rail said a couple of days ago that the bus eireann strike was having a particular affect on maynooth and m3 services

spacetweek

Are we any closer to having 4 trains per hour at peak?

L1011

thomasj wrote: »

irish rail said a couple of days ago that the bus eireann strike was having a particular affect on maynooth and m3 services

It has certainly increased traffic on services beyond Maynooth and dodgy parking near Maynooth station. I could easily imagine M3 park and rides being used more too.

aodh_rua

The GCD train leaving Newbridge at 07:20 is standing room only from Hazelhatch most mornings.

I've pretty much abandoned the evening service. Leaving Pearse St on the 145 bus at the same time as the 16:43 train gets you to Heuston in time for the 17:10, and gets you to Newbridge 15/20 minutes earlier.

thomasj

aodh_rua wrote:

The GCD train leaving Newbridge at 07:20 is standing room only from Hazelhatch most mornings.

It's not a nice train to be standing on...
.......

NewbridgeIR

aodh_rua wrote: »

The GCD train leaving Newbridge at 07:20 is standing room only from Hazelhatch most mornings.

I've pretty much abandoned the evening service. Leaving Pearse St on the 145 bus at the same time as the 16:43 train gets you to Heuston in time for the 17:10, and gets you to Newbridge 15/20 minutes earlier.

Hi, do you have a Newbridge to Pearse St PTP annual ticket? And if so, I presume it works on the 145 bus / Luas and allows you get trains from Heuston?

I have a weekly one to Tara St. Will try and get the annual Taxsaver in a month or two. Do you know if the weekly ticket will let me on the 145 bus and get the 1710 train from Heuston? I agree that the evening service via the tunnel is quite slow

aodh_rua

NewbridgeIR wrote: »

Hi, do you have a Newbridge to Pearse St PTP annual ticket? And if so, I presume it works on the 145 bus / Luas and allows you get trains from Heuston?

I have a weekly one to Tara St. Will try and get the annual Taxsaver in a month or two. Do you know if the weekly ticket will let me on the 145 bus and get the 1710 train from Heuston? I agree that the evening service via the tunnel is quite slow

I have an annual Heuston plus feeder ticket, which includes Luas, 145 and trains through the tunnel.

Unfortunately, Irish Rail haven't programmed the barriers at Pearse to accept the ticket (even though it's legitimate), so you need to find a staff member or potentially tailgate to get out of the station.

My ticket was issued in December, but I think they now issue point to point tickets from Newbridge to Pearse, Tara and GCD, so the barrier issue shouldn't arise for you. You might need to still pay the feeder extra for the bus and Luas (similar to the Heuston P2P plus feeder we're used to).

NewbridgeIR

Hi Aodh
Thanks for your reply
Irish Rail Taxsaver told me to select a Newbridge to Tara St P2P when applying for the annual ticket. So hopefully that should allow me use bus / luas as well as PPT. Morning is fine going to Tara St but evenings the times are better from Heuston.

I am currently using weekly tickets so will try and board a 145 DB this afternoon as I want to get an earlier train from Heuston. If they say no, I'll just pay the cash fare.

kc56

aodh_rua wrote: »

I have an annual Heuston plus feeder ticket, which includes Luas, 145 and trains through the tunnel.

Unfortunately, Irish Rail haven't programmed the barriers at Pearse to accept the ticket (even though it's legitimate), so you need to find a staff member or potentially tailgate to get out of the station.

My ticket was issued in December, but I think they now issue point to point tickets from Newbridge to Pearse, Tara and GCD, so the barrier issue shouldn't arise for you. You might need to still pay the feeder extra for the bus and Luas (similar to the Heuston P2P plus feeder we're used to).

Feeder bus is included with the P2P to GCD. So it's either/or train or feeder as you wish. My tickets works at all stations to GCD and on the Luas/145.

LXFlyer

spacetweek wrote: »

Are we any closer to having 4 trains per hour at peak?

I don't think you will see 4 trains per hour - this was a misconception from the outset. There simply isn't the rolling stock to deliver it.

The refurbishment of the 2700s has not yet been approved by the NTA, and even when it is, it's going to take some time. The resulting set cascade would focus I would imagine on the Maynooth/M3 lines, and the Northern line where capacity is at a premium.

Any improvement on the PPT route would be to launch the off-peak service, but that is dependent upon sufficient drivers being available to operate it.

In any case, the next timetable change is not likely to happen until December.

spacetweek

Thanks lxflyer.

What about DARTs every 10 minutes?

LXFlyer

spacetweek wrote: »

Thanks lxflyer.

What about DARTs every 10 minutes?

Put on ice whilst the ongoing IE industrial relations talks continue.

It won't happen until they conclude and even then probably not until the end of the year at the earliest.

L1011

And be prepared for utter, utter mayhem for months after they do...

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't think you will see 4 trains per hour - this was a misconception from the outset. There simply isn't the rolling stock to deliver it.

The refurbishment of the 2700s has not yet been approved by the NTA, and even when it is, it's going to take some time. The resulting set cascade would focus I would imagine on the Maynooth/M3 lines, and the Northern line where capacity is at a premium.

Any improvement on the PPT route would be to launch the off-peak service, but that is dependent upon sufficient drivers being available to operate it.

In any case, the next timetable change is not likely to happen until December.

I don't recall there ever been a plan for 4 per hour, 3 currently is more than adequate and will be long term. N Commuter and Maynooth barley get 3-4 services at peak hours.

AngryLips

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I don't recall there ever been a plan for 4 per hour, 3 currently is more than adequate and will be long term. N Commuter and Maynooth barley get 3-4 services at peak hours.

Maynooth line could support 3-4 per hour. One of the reasons the line doesn't get the passenger numbers it has the potential for is because it fails to provide a walk-up-and-go frequency. Dublin Bus 66 and 67 are both operating near capacity right not which is an indication of the type of demand this line could generate.

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

Maynooth line could support 3-4 per hour. One of the reasons the line doesn't get the passenger numbers it has the potential for is because it fails to provide a walk-up-and-go frequency. Dublin Bus 66 and 67 are both operating near capacity right not which is an indication of the type of demand this line could generate.

The Northern line has four trains an hour from 06:30 to 07:30, and the Maynooth/M3 lines have a combined frequency of six trains per hour between Clonsilla and Broombridge between 07:00 and 09:00.

To be fair if you combine the Heuston and GCD services there is pretty much a turn up and go service from Hazelhatch in the morning peak between 06:30 and 07:50.

As I said above you're unlikely to fit more services through the PPT at peak times - there simply aren't the paths for it through the loop line nor is there the rolling stock available.

LXFlyer

L1011 wrote: »

And be prepared for utter, utter mayhem for months after they do...

Bear in mind that under the proposed timetable the DART itself was to have increased running times which should mean a more resilient timetable overall. The poor performance through Connolly for the last while has been down to the very poor DART punctuality which has then had knock-on effects on all of the other services.

The main issue with the 10 minute DART frequency timetable is the enforced longer journey times on the Northern line as a result, and the reduced number of paths.

thomasj

AngryLips wrote:

Maynooth line could support 3-4 per hour. One of the reasons the line doesn't get the passenger numbers it has the potential for is because it fails to provide a walk-up-and-go frequency. Dublin Bus 66 and 67 are both operating near capacity right not which is an indication of the type of demand this line could generate.

As is the 39 and 39a

tabbey

lxflyer wrote: »

The main issue with the 10 minute DART frequency timetable is the enforced longer journey times on the Northern line as a result, and the reduced number of paths.

And the even slower running on the south-eastern section.

There should be no more talk of increasing paths until significant four tracking on parts of the northern and south eastern routes are not just projected but delivered. This should have been done before electrification nearly four decades ago.

The route between Broombridge and Clonsilla should also be protected from railside development.

LXFlyer

tabbey wrote: »

And the even slower running on the south-eastern section.

There should be no more talk of increasing paths until significant four tracking on parts of the northern and south eastern routes are not just projected but delivered. This should have been done before electrification nearly four decades ago.

The route between Broombridge and Clonsilla should also be protected from railside development.

That's true too but again there really is nothing that can be done to improve the overall journey times on that route given the infrastructural constraints and the operational constraints imposed by the half-hourly DART to/from Greystones.

I don't see any four tracking happening on the southeastern section - the cost/benefit would be awful.

The Northern Line issue is a greater one due the far greater numbers of passengers that will suffer longer journey times. I am inclined to think that infrastructural deficits on that line should be addressed before implementing the enhanced DART service - extra track capacity between Killester and Raheny, a southbound loop at Clongriffin, and a siding to the north of Malahide. But sadly I don't think that's going to happen.

thomasj

worth a read - downloadable document

http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/content/corporate/english/general/statement-strategy-2016-2019/iarnrod-eireann.pdf

tabbey

thomasj wrote: »

worth a read - downloadable document

http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/content/corporate/english/general/statement-strategy-2016-2019/iarnrod-eireann.pdf

Thank you for that.

Basically that statement means IR are comitted to ongoing maintenance & renewal of fleet and infrastructure,with enhanced efficiency and some additional rollingstock.
We have had this sort of aspiration for decades, what we need is radical increase in track capacity. Double track shared by suburban and mainline trains was alright in the sixties, butsince 1968 we have had significant increases in passengers almost every year.

You cannot put a quart in a pint pot.

If we want to run a mainline and outer suburban service, we need additional tracks. If the Airport branch from Clongriffin goes ahead, we may as well close passenger services north of Balbriggan, as buses will be much faster.

Part of the Kildare line has been given four tracking.At the moment it is a white elephant, but in 20 years it could be very busy. More so than the northern and southeastern routes, because the Kildare line has potential for development on both sides of the corridor.

The Midland route also has potential for residential development on both sides. Leixlip, Celbridge and Maynooth grew massively in the 1980s and 90s, the same could happen beyond Kilcock and Enfield over the next thirty years.
If land adjacent to the railway is not protected by a 10 metre cordon, it will be like the northern and southeastern routes very soon.

The time to plan for the future is long overdue, but better now than when rescuing the situation costs billions.
A medium sized city, which Dublin is becoming, cannot function without a rail based transport network.

L1011

Pre CIE we had people planning for growth -
GNR were planning quad tracking the Northern Line in the early 1950s!

tabbey

L1011 wrote: »

Pre CIE we had people planning for growth -
GNR were planning quad tracking the Northern Line in the early 1950s!

And bridges such as Collins Avenue were built to accomodate it.

kc56

tabbey wrote: »

Thank you for that.




Part of the Kildare line has been given four tracking.At the moment it is a white elephant, but in 20 years it could be very busy. More so than the northern and southeastern routes, because the Kildare line has potential for development on both sides of the corridor.

Not a total white elephant.

The 4 tracks does allow more commuter trains without interfering too much with IC trains. There's a lot of overtaking in the stretch at present - e.g the 0809 Hazelhatch/GCD has 3 ICs overtaking it (Westport and the 2 earlies for Cork). Without the 4 track, the PPT services couldn't be accommodated without seriously slowing IC trains. And outbound, you often have a PPT train closely followed by a Portlaoise and both being overtaken (e.g 1758 GCD-Hazelhatch followed by the 1825 Heuston - Portlaoise are overtaken by the 1830 Galway and 1835 Waterford).

While we're on the subject, loadings on the peak PPTs are very good with Newbridge trains being very well supported, with standing, at Sallins and Hazelhatch trains almost at capacity. Maybe the BE dispute is re-directing some traffic?

tabbey

kc56 wrote: »

Not a total white elephant.

The 4 tracks does allow more commuter trains without interfering too much with IC trains. There's a lot of overtaking in the stretch at present - e.g the 0809 Hazelhatch/GCD has 3 ICs overtaking it (Westport and the 2 earlies for Cork). Without the 4 track, the PPT services couldn't be accommodated without seriously slowing IC trains. And outbound, you often have a PPT train closely followed by a Portlaoise and both being overtaken (e.g 1758 GCD-Hazelhatch followed by the 1825 Heuston - Portlaoise are overtaken by the 1830 Galway and 1835 Waterford).

Agreed.

The point I am making is that in years to come, it will be much busier, with further four tracking towards Kildare, and new stations; Straffan, Caragh, probably more.

kc56

tabbey wrote: »

Agreed.

The point I am making is that in years to come, it will be much busier, with further four tracking towards Kildare, and new stations; Straffan, Caragh, probably more.

Yes. That will happen in the future, maybe. What is also needed is Dart Underground; that will be driver for further passenger growth in the corridor and provide a path for the trains to go avoiding the congested Connolly/Loop line area.

There has been a surge in traffic following the PPT from places like Sallins helped, no doubt, by joining the short-hop zone and the BE dispute. Previously, for example, the 0717 from Portlaoise was only partially loaded; now it is nearly full and along with it a nearly full Hazelhatch-GCD service.

NewbridgeIR

Just to confirm - just showed weekly Newbridge - Tara Street ticket on the 145 bus and driver said fine - once it said IFS (including feeder services), I'm covered.
Ticket also worked in Heuston barrier.
Thanks.

Jamie2k9

Had a read of IE's GoRail Spring addition and they say over 1000 people using the PPT service twice per day. Not sure how they have calculated it and if it for examples includes local traffic to/from Drumcondra etc.

One points failure in almost 6 months (Glasnevin) is also another positive, was my biggest concern but clearly they are doing extra maintenance to keep it running.

kc56

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Had a read of IE's GoRail Spring addition and they say over 1000 people using the PPT service twice per day. Not sure how they have calculated it and if it for examples includes local traffic to/from Drumcondra etc.

One points failure in almost 6 months (Glasnevin) is also another positive, was my biggest concern but clearly they are doing extra maintenance to keep it running.

1000 each way sounds realistic give the high loadings and all 4-car ICRs. Max loading is between Citywest and Connolly. Trains servicing Sallins are particularly busy.

NewbridgeIR

The 7.00am ex-Newbridge is pretty full after people get on at Sallins. Presume the 7.20am is even busier?

lucernarian

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Had a read of IE's GoRail Spring addition and they say over 1000 people using the PPT service twice per day. Not sure how they have calculated it and if it for examples includes local traffic to/from Drumcondra etc.

One points failure in almost 6 months (Glasnevin) is also another positive, was my biggest concern but clearly they are doing extra maintenance to keep it running.

One? I would have sworn there was more than that, apart from the time the train I was on having to reverse to Drumcondra so people could get out (during winter).

There's also been points failures more recently where the line branches from the Northern line north of Connolly.

So I'd be very concerned if Irish Rail are outright making up reliability figures for the past 6 months. And that's based only on what I've personally experienced.

kc56

NewbridgeIR wrote: »

The 7.00am ex-Newbridge is pretty full after people get on at Sallins. Presume the 7.20am is even busier?

Standing from Adamstown.

Heisenberg1

lucernarian wrote: »

One? I would have sworn there was more than that, apart from the time the train I was on having to reverse to Drumcondra so people could get out (during winter).

There's also been points failures more recently where the line branches from the Northern line north of Connolly.

So I'd be very concerned if Irish Rail are outright making up reliability figures for the past 6 months. And that's based only on what I've personally experienced.

That sounds accurate from IE the last points failure was as you said at the northern line branch, before that the only one I can remember wasn't a points failure at Glasnevin it was a train failure.

lucernarian

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

That sounds accurate from IE the last points failure was as you said at the northern line branch, before that the only one I can remember wasn't a points failure at Glasnevin it was a train failure.

The driver himself, after reversing the train from Drumcondra, told me there was a points failure at Glasnevin. There was a Sligo train failure at Broombridge or thereabouts that was also involved I believe. It was one that caused a "10 minute delay" according to Irish rail on Twitter even though people were stuck between Drumcondra and Glasnevin for what, half an hour.

Irish Rail wouldn't be able to look up "accurate" in a dictionary...

XPS_Zero

I had to go to a few stations on the Kildare line this evening (long story!)

On my way down I was planning on getting on a Luas at Connoly and heading over to Heuston. Then at GCD, I saw a train there for Hazelhatch & Celbridge and thought 'oh yeh the PPT tunnel', off the DART and onto the Intercity

On the way back, I wondered if there were any trains left going BACK through the tunnel, because going back to Killiney it's way way more direct to go to GCD and change to a DART than to go Heuston-Luas-Connoly-Killiney

But to my irritation there was a train going to GCD...zooming right by me without stopping at Adamstown, so I had to do the whole Heuston etc thing When I realized it would pass me I saw a Newbridge train on the other side and thought OK I'll jump on that and go to one of the stations that PPT train isserving, but there wasn't enough time.

So questions, two:

1. How did they decide where the PPT trains would stop and not? Is it demand? How do they calculate such demand? I would have thought Adamstown was a big enough commuter area. My mother who lives in Killiney and babysits my sisters kids while she's at work would love to get the train in and out via PPT but the timetable meant there was no service that would get her both in and out. Is there not enough "slots"? ie if it stops backlogs trains behind it. I did notice at the busy period (5-8) the bing bing "please stand behind the yellow line train now approaching", was practically running on a loop with how often they were passing both directions.
I notice there ARE PPT trains that serve Adamstown in the am and pm but not some times? Whats the rationale?

In the evening though it seems to only be a 16:14 and 17:14 service

2. When did the M&S store at Heuston open?? I was pleasantly surprised by this little gem on my way back.

Jamie2k9

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I had to go to a few stations on the Kildare line this evening (long story!)

On my way down I was planning on getting on a Luas at Connoly and heading over to Heuston. Then at GCD, I saw a train there for Hazelhatch & Celbridge and thought 'oh yeh the PPT tunnel', off the DART and onto the Intercity

On the way back, I wondered if there were any trains left going BACK through the tunnel, because going back to Killiney it's way way more direct to go to GCD and change to a DART than to go Heuston-Luas-Connoly-Killiney

But to my irritation there was a train going to GCD...zooming right by me without stopping at Adamstown, so I had to do the whole Heuston etc thing When I realized it would pass me I saw a Newbridge train on the other side and thought OK I'll jump on that and go to one of the stations that PPT train isserving, but there wasn't enough time.

So questions, two:

1. How did they decide where the PPT trains would stop and not? Is it demand? How do they calculate such demand? I would have thought Adamstown was a big enough commuter area. My mother who lives in Killiney and babysits my sisters kids while she's at work would love to get the train in and out via PPT but the timetable meant there was no service that would get her both in and out. Is there not enough "slots"? ie if it stops backlogs trains behind it. I did notice at the busy period (5-8) the bing bing "please stand behind the yellow line train now approaching", was practically running on a loop with how often they were passing both directions.
I notice there ARE PPT trains that serve Adamstown in the am and pm but not some times? Whats the rationale?

In the evening though it seems to only be a 16:14 and 17:14 service

2. When did the M&S store at Heuston open?? I was pleasantly surprised by this little gem on my way back.

M&S opened around 2 months now if not more.

They only serve Park West going back to GCD in the afternoon and e GCD in morning to tap into some commuter traffic. The services are basally an empty transfer, there would be next to no people at Fonthill, Adamstown to justify a stop given the current set up. Other factors may well be existing schedules and the possible impact.

The 16 and 17.14 are just the hourly Portlaoise service that stops in Adamstown.

It will only make sense to serve Adamstown more regularly once the hourly service states, now it's just people going to work in morning and coming home in evening.

Thrashssacre

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

M&S opened around 2 months now if not more.

They only serve Park West going back to GCD in the afternoon and e GCD in morning to tap into some commuter traffic. The services are basally an empty transfer, there would be next to no people at Fonthill, Adamstown to justify a stop given the current set up. Other factors may well be existing schedules and the possible impact.

The 16 and 17.14 are just the hourly Portlaoise service that stops in Adamstown.

It will only make sense to serve Adamstown more regularly once the hourly service states, now it's just people going to work in morning and coming home in evening.

Has there been any indication when hourly services will start?

Jamie2k9

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Has there been any indication when hourly services will start?

Maybe end of year or next year.

I believe they have not had the Labor Court ruling yet and it will likely rake time to train new drivers as they don't have to many to spare. Nothing major will happen until they settle pay/productivity issues over the summer.

XPS_Zero

So the trains going TO Newbridge etc in the am and the ones coming FROM there in the evening are just moving trains around to position them for the opposite of heading to work and coming home, where the demand is, and thus they stop at 1-2 stations since they may as well?

Is there any plan to replace the ICRs with Commuter sets in the future since it is basically a commuter route?

Jamie2k9

XPS_Zero wrote: »

So the trains going TO Newbridge etc in the am and the ones coming FROM there in the evening are just moving trains around to position them for the opposite of heading to work and coming home, where the demand is, and thus they stop at 1-2 stations since they may as well?

Is there any plan to replace the ICRs with Commuter sets in the future since it is basically a commuter route?

More less and eventually use commuter stock in place of the ICRs.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

More less and eventually use commuter stock in place of the ICRs.

i doubt the 2700s would be able to cover it so are some new suburban units on the cards?

man98

end of the road wrote: »

i doubt the 2700s would be able to cover it so are some new suburban units on the cards?

Taking a 29000 off the 0535 from Rosslare to Dundalk (is it still running that far?) and off the evening services to Wexford/ Sligo would likely free up enough 29000s to operate the services. If necessary, even replacing a Longford service with ICR would do the trick most likely.

kc56

end of the road wrote: »

i doubt the 2700s would be able to cover it so are some new suburban units on the cards?

There are 28 2700's. I think the current service is provided by 4 ICR units, mostly 4-car. Since 2700 have fewer seats, it would probably need a mix of 6 and 4 car units. Newbridge trains would need 6-car while Hazelhatch could probably do with 4-car. 2x6 and 2x4 is 20 units leaving 8 as spares or to increase capacity as the service grows. It's already nearly at capacity on some services from Newbridge.

To Alcohol

kc56 wrote: »

Standing from Adamstown.

have seen standing from Sallins and regularly standing from Celbridge.

thomasj

man98 wrote: »

Taking a 29000 off the 0535 from Rosslare to Dundalk (is it still running that far?) and off the evening services to Wexford/ Sligo would likely free up enough 29000s to operate the services. If necessary, even replacing a Longford service with ICR would do the trick most likely.

They might be better off in M3 Parkway services where people sometimes cannot get on!