Phoenix Park tunnel: 4 trains per hour from 2016

kc56

tabbey wrote: »

Agreed.

The point I am making is that in years to come, it will be much busier, with further four tracking towards Kildare, and new stations; Straffan, Caragh, probably more.

Yes. That will happen in the future, maybe. What is also needed is Dart Underground; that will be driver for further passenger growth in the corridor and provide a path for the trains to go avoiding the congested Connolly/Loop line area.

There has been a surge in traffic following the PPT from places like Sallins helped, no doubt, by joining the short-hop zone and the BE dispute. Previously, for example, the 0717 from Portlaoise was only partially loaded; now it is nearly full and along with it a nearly full Hazelhatch-GCD service.

NewbridgeIR

Just to confirm - just showed weekly Newbridge - Tara Street ticket on the 145 bus and driver said fine - once it said IFS (including feeder services), I'm covered.
Ticket also worked in Heuston barrier.
Thanks.

Jamie2k9

Had a read of IE's GoRail Spring addition and they say over 1000 people using the PPT service twice per day. Not sure how they have calculated it and if it for examples includes local traffic to/from Drumcondra etc.

One points failure in almost 6 months (Glasnevin) is also another positive, was my biggest concern but clearly they are doing extra maintenance to keep it running.

kc56

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Had a read of IE's GoRail Spring addition and they say over 1000 people using the PPT service twice per day. Not sure how they have calculated it and if it for examples includes local traffic to/from Drumcondra etc.

One points failure in almost 6 months (Glasnevin) is also another positive, was my biggest concern but clearly they are doing extra maintenance to keep it running.

1000 each way sounds realistic give the high loadings and all 4-car ICRs. Max loading is between Citywest and Connolly. Trains servicing Sallins are particularly busy.

NewbridgeIR

The 7.00am ex-Newbridge is pretty full after people get on at Sallins. Presume the 7.20am is even busier?

lucernarian

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Had a read of IE's GoRail Spring addition and they say over 1000 people using the PPT service twice per day. Not sure how they have calculated it and if it for examples includes local traffic to/from Drumcondra etc.

One points failure in almost 6 months (Glasnevin) is also another positive, was my biggest concern but clearly they are doing extra maintenance to keep it running.

One? I would have sworn there was more than that, apart from the time the train I was on having to reverse to Drumcondra so people could get out (during winter).

There's also been points failures more recently where the line branches from the Northern line north of Connolly.

So I'd be very concerned if Irish Rail are outright making up reliability figures for the past 6 months. And that's based only on what I've personally experienced.

kc56

NewbridgeIR wrote: »

The 7.00am ex-Newbridge is pretty full after people get on at Sallins. Presume the 7.20am is even busier?

Standing from Adamstown.

Heisenberg1

lucernarian wrote: »

One? I would have sworn there was more than that, apart from the time the train I was on having to reverse to Drumcondra so people could get out (during winter).

There's also been points failures more recently where the line branches from the Northern line north of Connolly.

So I'd be very concerned if Irish Rail are outright making up reliability figures for the past 6 months. And that's based only on what I've personally experienced.

That sounds accurate from IE the last points failure was as you said at the northern line branch, before that the only one I can remember wasn't a points failure at Glasnevin it was a train failure.

lucernarian

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

That sounds accurate from IE the last points failure was as you said at the northern line branch, before that the only one I can remember wasn't a points failure at Glasnevin it was a train failure.

The driver himself, after reversing the train from Drumcondra, told me there was a points failure at Glasnevin. There was a Sligo train failure at Broombridge or thereabouts that was also involved I believe. It was one that caused a "10 minute delay" according to Irish rail on Twitter even though people were stuck between Drumcondra and Glasnevin for what, half an hour.

Irish Rail wouldn't be able to look up "accurate" in a dictionary...

XPS_Zero

I had to go to a few stations on the Kildare line this evening (long story!)

On my way down I was planning on getting on a Luas at Connoly and heading over to Heuston. Then at GCD, I saw a train there for Hazelhatch & Celbridge and thought 'oh yeh the PPT tunnel', off the DART and onto the Intercity

On the way back, I wondered if there were any trains left going BACK through the tunnel, because going back to Killiney it's way way more direct to go to GCD and change to a DART than to go Heuston-Luas-Connoly-Killiney

But to my irritation there was a train going to GCD...zooming right by me without stopping at Adamstown, so I had to do the whole Heuston etc thing When I realized it would pass me I saw a Newbridge train on the other side and thought OK I'll jump on that and go to one of the stations that PPT train isserving, but there wasn't enough time.

So questions, two:

1. How did they decide where the PPT trains would stop and not? Is it demand? How do they calculate such demand? I would have thought Adamstown was a big enough commuter area. My mother who lives in Killiney and babysits my sisters kids while she's at work would love to get the train in and out via PPT but the timetable meant there was no service that would get her both in and out. Is there not enough "slots"? ie if it stops backlogs trains behind it. I did notice at the busy period (5-8) the bing bing "please stand behind the yellow line train now approaching", was practically running on a loop with how often they were passing both directions.
I notice there ARE PPT trains that serve Adamstown in the am and pm but not some times? Whats the rationale?

In the evening though it seems to only be a 16:14 and 17:14 service

2. When did the M&S store at Heuston open?? I was pleasantly surprised by this little gem on my way back.

Jamie2k9

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I had to go to a few stations on the Kildare line this evening (long story!)

On my way down I was planning on getting on a Luas at Connoly and heading over to Heuston. Then at GCD, I saw a train there for Hazelhatch & Celbridge and thought 'oh yeh the PPT tunnel', off the DART and onto the Intercity

On the way back, I wondered if there were any trains left going BACK through the tunnel, because going back to Killiney it's way way more direct to go to GCD and change to a DART than to go Heuston-Luas-Connoly-Killiney

But to my irritation there was a train going to GCD...zooming right by me without stopping at Adamstown, so I had to do the whole Heuston etc thing When I realized it would pass me I saw a Newbridge train on the other side and thought OK I'll jump on that and go to one of the stations that PPT train isserving, but there wasn't enough time.

So questions, two:

1. How did they decide where the PPT trains would stop and not? Is it demand? How do they calculate such demand? I would have thought Adamstown was a big enough commuter area. My mother who lives in Killiney and babysits my sisters kids while she's at work would love to get the train in and out via PPT but the timetable meant there was no service that would get her both in and out. Is there not enough "slots"? ie if it stops backlogs trains behind it. I did notice at the busy period (5-8) the bing bing "please stand behind the yellow line train now approaching", was practically running on a loop with how often they were passing both directions.
I notice there ARE PPT trains that serve Adamstown in the am and pm but not some times? Whats the rationale?

In the evening though it seems to only be a 16:14 and 17:14 service

2. When did the M&S store at Heuston open?? I was pleasantly surprised by this little gem on my way back.

M&S opened around 2 months now if not more.

They only serve Park West going back to GCD in the afternoon and e GCD in morning to tap into some commuter traffic. The services are basally an empty transfer, there would be next to no people at Fonthill, Adamstown to justify a stop given the current set up. Other factors may well be existing schedules and the possible impact.

The 16 and 17.14 are just the hourly Portlaoise service that stops in Adamstown.

It will only make sense to serve Adamstown more regularly once the hourly service states, now it's just people going to work in morning and coming home in evening.

Thrashssacre

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

M&S opened around 2 months now if not more.

They only serve Park West going back to GCD in the afternoon and e GCD in morning to tap into some commuter traffic. The services are basally an empty transfer, there would be next to no people at Fonthill, Adamstown to justify a stop given the current set up. Other factors may well be existing schedules and the possible impact.

The 16 and 17.14 are just the hourly Portlaoise service that stops in Adamstown.

It will only make sense to serve Adamstown more regularly once the hourly service states, now it's just people going to work in morning and coming home in evening.

Has there been any indication when hourly services will start?

Jamie2k9

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Has there been any indication when hourly services will start?

Maybe end of year or next year.

I believe they have not had the Labor Court ruling yet and it will likely rake time to train new drivers as they don't have to many to spare. Nothing major will happen until they settle pay/productivity issues over the summer.

XPS_Zero

So the trains going TO Newbridge etc in the am and the ones coming FROM there in the evening are just moving trains around to position them for the opposite of heading to work and coming home, where the demand is, and thus they stop at 1-2 stations since they may as well?

Is there any plan to replace the ICRs with Commuter sets in the future since it is basically a commuter route?

Jamie2k9

XPS_Zero wrote: »

So the trains going TO Newbridge etc in the am and the ones coming FROM there in the evening are just moving trains around to position them for the opposite of heading to work and coming home, where the demand is, and thus they stop at 1-2 stations since they may as well?

Is there any plan to replace the ICRs with Commuter sets in the future since it is basically a commuter route?

More less and eventually use commuter stock in place of the ICRs.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

More less and eventually use commuter stock in place of the ICRs.

i doubt the 2700s would be able to cover it so are some new suburban units on the cards?

man98

end of the road wrote: »

i doubt the 2700s would be able to cover it so are some new suburban units on the cards?

Taking a 29000 off the 0535 from Rosslare to Dundalk (is it still running that far?) and off the evening services to Wexford/ Sligo would likely free up enough 29000s to operate the services. If necessary, even replacing a Longford service with ICR would do the trick most likely.

kc56

end of the road wrote: »

i doubt the 2700s would be able to cover it so are some new suburban units on the cards?

There are 28 2700's. I think the current service is provided by 4 ICR units, mostly 4-car. Since 2700 have fewer seats, it would probably need a mix of 6 and 4 car units. Newbridge trains would need 6-car while Hazelhatch could probably do with 4-car. 2x6 and 2x4 is 20 units leaving 8 as spares or to increase capacity as the service grows. It's already nearly at capacity on some services from Newbridge.

To Alcohol

kc56 wrote: »

Standing from Adamstown.

have seen standing from Sallins and regularly standing from Celbridge.

thomasj

man98 wrote: »

Taking a 29000 off the 0535 from Rosslare to Dundalk (is it still running that far?) and off the evening services to Wexford/ Sligo would likely free up enough 29000s to operate the services. If necessary, even replacing a Longford service with ICR would do the trick most likely.

They might be better off in M3 Parkway services where people sometimes cannot get on!

kc56

To Alcohol wrote: »

have seen standing from Sallins and regularly standing from Celbridge.

Getting busier by the day.

thomasj

kc56 wrote: »

There are 28 2700's. I think the current service is provided by 4 ICR units, mostly 4-car. Since 2700 have fewer seats, it would probably need a mix of 6 and 4 car units. Newbridge trains would need 6-car while Hazelhatch could probably do with 4-car. 2x6 and 2x4 is 20 units leaving 8 as spares or to increase capacity as the service grows. It's already nearly at capacity on some services from Newbridge.

in fairness the capacity of a 4-coach 22k is the equivalent of a 2-coach 2700 set. maybe slightly more

kc56

thomasj wrote: »

in fairness the capacity of a 4-coach 22k is the equivalent of a 2-coach 2700 set. maybe slightly more

A 2-car 2700 has 117 seats, so 234 for a 4-car set. A 4-car ICR has 262 seats. Of course the 2700 has more space for packing in standers.
According to WikiPedia, there are 12x2-car sets, not 14. But the class is withdrawn and needs a major overhaul before a possible return to service.

end of the road

kc56 wrote: »

A 2-car 2700 has 117 seats, so 234 for a 4-car set. A 4-car ICR has 262 seats. Of course the 2700 has more space for packing in standers.
According to WikiPedia, there are 12x2-car sets, not 14. But the class is withdrawn and needs a major overhaul before a possible return to service.

it's 25 2 car sets i believe with 2 bi-cab single units

edit, got my number of sets mixed up with number of individual vehicles. it's 25 individual 2700 cars and 2 2750 bi-cabs.

thomasj

kc56 wrote: »

A 2-car 2700 has 117 seats, so 234 for a 4-car set. A 4-car ICR has 262 seats. Of course the 2700 has more space for packing in standers.
According to WikiPedia, there are 12x2-car sets, not 14. But the class is withdrawn and needs a major overhaul before a possible return to service.

Commuter service is about getting as many people into or out of the city and should have the maximum available capacity. Intercity railcars dont do this.

If they were to have intercity railcars on Maynooth and Drogheda services all the time, there would be people left behind on the platforms all of the time

Sure its happening more often than not on the M3 services and that service is more comparable to newbridge/hazelhatch/GCD services than it is to Maynooth/Drogheda

flyingsnail

end of the road wrote: »

it's 25 2 car sets i believe with 2 bi-cab single units

12 x 2 Car sets
2 x single car units
1 hybrid set 2716 + 2609

Jamie2k9

Only 10 sets of 2700 class are fit for service.

i doubt the 2700s would be able to cover it so are some new suburban units on the cards?

Not all but should cover the bussiest services such as the 17.30 departure.

Taking a 29000 off the 0535 from Rosslare to Dundalk (is it still running that far?) and off the evening services to Wexford/ Sligo would likely free up enough 29000s to operate the services. If necessary, even replacing a Longford service with ICR would do the trick most likely.

Prob require a ICR to be 5 coaches to move off Longford.

spacetweek

thomasj wrote: »

They might be better off in M3 Parkway services where people sometimes cannot get on!

I hadn't looked at that service in ages, used to wonder if their huge car park would get much use. So it's very popular then?

thomasj

spacetweek wrote:

I hadn't looked at that service in ages, used to wonder if their huge car park would get much use. So it's very popular then?

Yeah they get very busy and the 22ks you see on the service struggle to cope with how busy it is sometimes.

loyatemu

thomasj wrote: »

Yeah they get very busy and the 22ks you see on the service struggle to cope with how busy it is sometimes.

the 22Ks just aren't suitable for busy commuter services - Irish Rail need to buy more proper commuter sets.