Phoenix Park tunnel: 4 trains per hour from 2016

Rootsblower

Working class heroes wrote: »

Did you "Mentor" yourself? Or did you just walk in off the road with all the know how?

I wasn't mentored by any one driver I served my time as a guard/shunter and general operative over a few years then I was selected to train as a diver. I had a very good feel for railway operations before I was allowed to drive 300 passengers at speeds of up to 100mph.

Nowadays you can never have even seen a train and be driving trains at 100mph within 9 months. I believe this system to be flawed as most other drivers do. Also in the past if a trainee driver makes a mistake a bit of leniency was shown to the driver that was training the trainee, now if a mistake is made no matter how small the driver is disciplined so for a payment of €8 it's not worth it cos any subsequent mistakes by the driver compound on your record and you could lose your licence.

I have trained drivers in the past and would again no problem for free if the training regime was returned to the previous methods

Working class heroes

Rootsblower wrote: »

I wasn't mentored by any one driver I served my time as a guard/shunter and general operative over a few years then I was selected to train as a diver. I had a very good feel for railway operations before I was allowed to drive 300 passengers at speeds of up to 100mph.

Nowadays you can never have even seen a train and be driving trains at 100mph within 9 months. I believe this system to be flawed as most other drivers do. Also in the past if a trainee driver makes a mistake a bit of leniency was shown to the driver that was training the trainee, now if a mistake is made no matter how small the driver is disciplined so for a payment of €8 it's not worth it cos any subsequent mistakes by the driver compound on your record and you could lose your licence.

I have trained drivers in the past and would again no problem for free if the training regime was returned to the previous methods

So you were mentored.

The process used to select drivers has not changed. They are selected as per suitability for the role as you were.
Are you saying you were selected as a driver under a flawed system?

You said previously you would not mentor a driver for all the tea in China, now you say you would if the training regime was returned to previous methods.
Can you differentiate between the past and current training regimes please?

Rootsblower

Working class heroes wrote: »

So you were mentored.

The process used to select drivers has not changed. They are selected as per suitability for the role as you were.
Are you saying you were selected as a driver under a flawed system?

You said previously you would not mentor a driver for all the tea in China, now you say you would if the training regime was returned to previous methods.
Can you differentiate between the past and current training regimes please?

Current system

3 weeks in training school doing a basic operations course.
3 weeks " in cab experience " i.e just sitting with a qualified driver just observing
3 months back in training school learning rules and regulations and practical training based on driving ICR's. After 3 months maybe a further 2 weeks training on locomotives but in my depot the trainees under this system have not all got this so when they return they cannot drive a loco hauled train.
Circa 4 months with a mentor driver ( usually left with the same driver)getting 250 hours driving experience, 40 of these hours must be during darkness so if this period lands during the summer then these 40 hours can't be accumulated as most depots have no regular driving during night since the demise of freight.

When this process is completed then it's a final exam and off you go

Previous system assuming trainee had guards certificate which was 10 weeks training

12 weeks learning all types of locos and rules with out road experience every Friday observing qualified drivers over various routes
After 12 weeks trainee exam.
Return to depot learning yards and station on road knowledge applicable to your depot driving under the instruction of another driver.
Probation exam followed by further road knowledge if required before being passed for driving on your own around the depot but were prohibited from driving a train with passengers on board
During the probationary period you learned any relevant railcar classes and did regular rules refresher training with inspectors
After 6 months probationary exam we did a 5 day rules exam which you had to get at the time 90% score but certain safety critical questions correct or else back to training school for a week of rules training then 1 more attemp to pass.
Re examined by inspector around yard/station in your depot and if all is correct passed out as a fully qualified driver.
In smaller depots then you were sent to heuston/Connolly to learn their yards and only then given road knowledge on mainline then passed again by inspector
In larger depots with pilot links you could be a further 1 to 2 years before you were given mainline road knowledge.

As you can see the older method was more of an apprenticeship type of training method that allowed a driver to develope their skills around yards and stations where there are less things to go wrong. Also, during the mainline road knowledge portion of your trading you were sent with many different senior drivers to see the different driving styles and hopefully pick up all their good habits.

The newer mentoring system is flawed in my opinion as it generally puts a trainee with one mentor for the whole 250 hours so the trainee doesn't get to see all the different tips and good habits from having multiple trainers.

The current mentoring system also requires the mentor driver to sign a training log each day for the trainee based on the journey undertaken and noting any unusual moves made that day. The mentor must sign that the trainee completed the move correctly etc. Here's the crux of the whole problem drivers have

If a driver shows the trainee how to make an unusual movement and signs the trainee log that this move was made by the book and then, 5 years later the now qualified driver goes to make the same movement for the first time on their own and makes a serious error causing an accident which results in a fatality god forbid. Will the original driver who signed the drivers trainee log be dragged into the whole mess and questioned under the Railway Safety Act 2005 and possibly be subject to a fine or prison time if found to be in any way negligent.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

GM228

Fred Swanson wrote: »

How often under IE rules does a driver have to drive a route to keep his route knowledge current?

At least once every 6 months.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Stephen15

Just asking why would the unions be so against driver training when at the end of the day the people being trained are going to be paid up union members when they qualify.

LXFlyer

Stephen15 wrote: »

Just asking why would the unions be so against driver training when at the end of the day the people being trained are going to be paid up union members when they qualify.

There are ongoing pay negotiations at Irish Rail - as I stated before - it's a bargaining chip.

GM228

Stephen15 wrote: »

Just asking why would the unions be so against driver training when at the end of the day the people being trained are going to be paid up union members when they qualify.

They would already be paid up union members anyway before they are trained.

GM228

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Same as the UK so.

It's considered best practice in the industry accross Europe.

Grandeeod

Rootsblower wrote: »

Current system

3 weeks in training school doing a basic operations course.
3 weeks " in cab experience " i.e just sitting with a qualified driver just observing
3 months back in training school learning rules and regulations and practical training based on driving ICR's. After 3 months maybe a further 2 weeks training on locomotives but in my depot the trainees under this system have not all got this so when they return they cannot drive a loco hauled train.
Circa 4 months with a mentor driver ( usually left with the same driver)getting 250 hours driving experience, 40 of these hours must be during darkness so if this period lands during the summer then these 40 hours can't be accumulated as most depots have no regular driving during night since the demise of freight.

When this process is completed then it's a final exam and off you go

Previous system assuming trainee had guards certificate which was 10 weeks training

12 weeks learning all types of locos and rules with out road experience every Friday observing qualified drivers over various routes
After 12 weeks trainee exam.
Return to depot learning yards and station on road knowledge applicable to your depot driving under the instruction of another driver.
Probation exam followed by further road knowledge if required before being passed for driving on your own around the depot but were prohibited from driving a train with passengers on board
During the probationary period you learned any relevant railcar classes and did regular rules refresher training with inspectors
After 6 months probationary exam we did a 5 day rules exam which you had to get at the time 90% score but certain safety critical questions correct or else back to training school for a week of rules training then 1 more attemp to pass.
Re examined by inspector around yard/station in your depot and if all is correct passed out as a fully qualified driver.
In smaller depots then you were sent to heuston/Connolly to learn their yards and only then given road knowledge on mainline then passed again by inspector
In larger depots with pilot links you could be a further 1 to 2 years before you were given mainline road knowledge.

As you can see the older method was more of an apprenticeship type of training method that allowed a driver to develope their skills around yards and stations where there are less things to go wrong. Also, during the mainline road knowledge portion of your trading you were sent with many different senior drivers to see the different driving styles and hopefully pick up all their good habits.

The newer mentoring system is flawed in my opinion as it generally puts a trainee with one mentor for the whole 250 hours so the trainee doesn't get to see all the different tips and good habits from having multiple trainers.

The current mentoring system also requires the mentor driver to sign a training log each day for the trainee based on the journey undertaken and noting any unusual moves made that day. The mentor must sign that the trainee completed the move correctly etc. Here's the crux of the whole problem drivers have

If a driver shows the trainee how to make an unusual movement and signs the trainee log that this move was made by the book and then, 5 years later the now qualified driver goes to make the same movement for the first time on their own and makes a serious error causing an accident which results in a fatality god forbid. Will the original driver who signed the drivers trainee log be dragged into the whole mess and questioned under the Railway Safety Act 2005 and possibly be subject to a fine or prison time if found to be in any way negligent.

Despite ignoring me I assume this is your version of a solution - a comparison to how it used to be done versus how its done now?

Rootsblower

Grandeeod wrote: »

Despite ignoring me I assume this is your version of a solution - a comparison to how it used to be done versus how its done now?

Sorry was not intentionally ignoring your question ( had to look back over your posts). I was asked for a summary of the now v then regarding driver training. As to your question on a solution for driver training I honestly don't have an answer, finding a solution is way above my pay grade. Again sorry for not replying sooner

KCAccidental

always great to see facts wiping away bluster.

Working class heroes

KCAccidental wrote: »

always great to see facts wiping away bluster.

Facts? Don't make me laugh. All I see here is nonsense and opinions, opinions that can easily be swayed by moola.

Working class heroes

Rootsblower wrote: »

Current system

3 weeks in training school doing a basic operations course.
3 weeks " in cab experience " i.e just sitting with a qualified driver just observing
3 months back in training school learning rules and regulations and practical training based on driving ICR's. After 3 months maybe a further 2 weeks training on locomotives but in my depot the trainees under this system have not all got this so when they return they cannot drive a loco hauled train.
Circa 4 months with a mentor driver ( usually left with the same driver)getting 250 hours driving experience, 40 of these hours must be during darkness so if this period lands during the summer then these 40 hours can't be accumulated as most depots have no regular driving during night since the demise of freight.

When this process is completed then it's a final exam and off you go

Previous system assuming trainee had guards certificate which was 10 weeks training

12 weeks learning all types of locos and rules with out road experience every Friday observing qualified drivers over various routes
After 12 weeks trainee exam.
Return to depot learning yards and station on road knowledge applicable to your depot driving under the instruction of another driver.
Probation exam followed by further road knowledge if required before being passed for driving on your own around the depot but were prohibited from driving a train with passengers on board
During the probationary period you learned any relevant railcar classes and did regular rules refresher training with inspectors
After 6 months probationary exam we did a 5 day rules exam which you had to get at the time 90% score but certain safety critical questions correct or else back to training school for a week of rules training then 1 more attemp to pass.
Re examined by inspector around yard/station in your depot and if all is correct passed out as a fully qualified driver.
In smaller depots then you were sent to heuston/Connolly to learn their yards and only then given road knowledge on mainline then passed again by inspector
In larger depots with pilot links you could be a further 1 to 2 years before you were given mainline road knowledge.

As you can see the older method was more of an apprenticeship type of training method that allowed a driver to develope their skills around yards and stations where there are less things to go wrong. Also, during the mainline road knowledge portion of your trading you were sent with many different senior drivers to see the different driving styles and hopefully pick up all their good habits.

The newer mentoring system is flawed in my opinion as it generally puts a trainee with one mentor for the whole 250 hours so the trainee doesn't get to see all the different tips and good habits from having multiple trainers.

The current mentoring system also requires the mentor driver to sign a training log each day for the trainee based on the journey undertaken and noting any unusual moves made that day. The mentor must sign that the trainee completed the move correctly etc. Here's the crux of the whole problem drivers have

If a driver shows the trainee how to make an unusual movement and signs the trainee log that this move was made by the book and then, 5 years later the now qualified driver goes to make the same movement for the first time on their own and makes a serious error causing an accident which results in a fatality god forbid. Will the original driver who signed the drivers trainee log be dragged into the whole mess and questioned under the Railway Safety Act 2005 and possibly be subject to a fine or prison time if found to be in any way negligent.

Can I ask when the current system was introduced?

Working class heroes

Rootsblower wrote: »

I wasn't mentored by any one driver I served my time as a guard/shunter and general operative over a few years then I was selected to train as a diver. I had a very good feel for railway operations before I was allowed to drive 300 passengers at speeds of up to 100mph.

Nowadays you can never have even seen a train and be driving trains at 100mph within 9 months. I believe this system to be flawed as most other drivers do. Also in the past if a trainee driver makes a mistake a bit of leniency was shown to the driver that was training the trainee, now if a mistake is made no matter how small the driver is disciplined so for a payment of €8 it's not worth it cos any subsequent mistakes by the driver compound on your record and you could lose your licence.

I have trained drivers in the past and would again no problem for free if the training regime was returned to the previous methods

Just for clarity this figure is wrong. The figure is €33 per day.

Rootsblower

Working class heroes wrote: »

Just for clarity this figure is wrong. The figure is €33 per day.

Incorrect the previous mentoring system paid a taxable allowance of €23 per day if you had a trainee with you. There wasn't much uptake.

Current proposal is an allowance of €2000 per year which is roughly €40 per week which is €8 per day. This equated to €1.98 euro after tax/prsi/usc per journey assuming an up to Dublin and back turn of duty.

System of mentoring was introduced around 2006/07

Working class heroes

Rootsblower wrote: »

Incorrect the previous mentoring system paid a taxable allowance of €23 per day if you had a trainee with you. There wasn't much uptake.

Current proposal is an allowance of €2000 per year which is roughly €40 per week which is €8 per day. This equated to €1.98 euro after tax/prsi/usc per journey assuming an up to Dublin and back turn of duty.

System of mentoring was introduced around 2006/07

Nope, definitely €33.00. And this was paid when the last batch of DART drivers that were training.

EDIT: You're maths is either way off or the tax man owes you a few bob.

Rootsblower

Working class heroes wrote: »

Nope, definitely €33.00. And this was paid when the last batch of DART drivers that were training.

EDIT: You're maths is either way off or the tax man owes you a few bob.

Nope it was €23

As I stated current proposal is €2000 per year

€2000 / 52 weeks = €38.46 per week
This equates to €7.69 euro per day
At the marginal rate of tax as 51% equals €3.76
Assuming for example cork to Dublin and return with a trainee this equals €1.88 per trip

loyatemu

Rootsblower wrote: »

Nope it was €23

As I stated current proposal is €2000 per year

€2000 / 52 weeks = €38.46 per week
This equates to €7.69 euro per day
At the marginal rate of tax as 51% equals €3.76
Assuming for example cork to Dublin and return with a trainee this equals €1.88 per trip

to drive a train they'd be driving anyway, just with an extra body in the cab?
seems ok, it'd pay for a holiday.

Working class heroes

Rootsblower wrote: »

Nope it was €23

As I stated current proposal is €2000 per year

€2000 / 52 weeks = €38.46 per week
This equates to €7.69 euro per day
At the marginal rate of tax as 51% equals €3.76
Assuming for example cork to Dublin and return with a trainee this equals €1.88 per trip

Why not go the whole hog and say its €0.40/hr. :rolleyes:

I'm telling you now €33.00 is the figure.
By insisting its €23.00 shows you are been disingenuous and are lacking credibility. No point debating with you so ill leave it there.....

Rootsblower

Working class heroes wrote: »

Why not go the whole hog and say its €0.40/hr. :rolleyes:

I'm telling you now €33.00 is the figure.
By insisting its €23.00 shows you are been disingenuous and are lacking credibility. No point debating with you so ill leave it there.....

The old I don't want to hear your rebuttal trick. No wonder those of us on the inside don't share what the public doesn't hear.

metrovick001

"Having secured a reduction in train fares from Sallins by up to 50% by having the LEAP card extended last year, I continue to work closely with Irish Rail".

.....These politicians really have some neck when you think about it.

Grandeeod

metrovick001 wrote: »

"Having secured a reduction in train fares from Sallins by up to 50% by having the LEAP card extended last year, I continue to work closely with Irish Rail".

.....These politicians really have some neck when you think about it.

Is that your man Lawless?

Working class heroes

Rootsblower wrote: »

The old I don't want to hear your rebuttal trick. No wonder those of us on the inside don't share what the public doesn't hear.

Maybe I'm on the inside.

There are rebuttal and there are lies. Its the lies I don't want to hear.

aodh_rua

There's a six car set on this morning's 7:20 from Newbridge. It'll give Celbridge and onwards commuters a nice surprise.

The_Wanderer

aodh_rua wrote: »

There's a six car set on this morning's 7:20 from Newbridge. It'll give Celbridge and onwards commuters a nice surprise.

Displacement to sets following a failure at Heuston yesterday evening. That set should have been working the 07.15 Westport - Heuston. Conversely the 07.10 Waterford - Heuston was 4ICR instead 2X3ICR, again due to the same failure.

LuckyLloyd

I've recently started using the PPT services every day between Pearse and Parkwest and have to say that I find them incredibly reliable and punctual.

When is the increase of service due to commence? By the sounds of this thread they had teething problems to begin with but certainly seems like they have been put to bed.

Jamie2k9

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I've recently started using the PPT services every day between Pearse and Parkwest and have to say that I find them incredibly reliable and punctual.

When is the increase of service due to commence? By the sounds of this thread they had teething problems to begin with but certainly seems like they have been put to bed.

I couldn't really say but it will likely be middle of 2018 before anything happens at this stage.

Rashers72

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I've recently started using the PPT services every day between Pearse and Parkwest and have to say that I find them incredibly reliable and punctual.

When is the increase of service due to commence? By the sounds of this thread they had teething problems to begin with but certainly seems like they have been put to bed.

I think PPT services have benefited but since they rolled out, Drogheda trains going through Pearse in the 8-9am and 5-6pm slot M-F have all started to suffer from extra 5-10 min in delays most days. Just my experience. IE now refer to it as 'congestion'. Not sure of impact on Maynooth trains. In the morning, the train I get arrives 5 mins early outside Connolly (due to padding), awaits a train from Newbridge, then arrives into Connolly and waits there, and then leaves after 2-3 mins behind schedule into Pearse behind the PPT service. I was told all will be resolved with the new timetable. I would imagine this is impacting DARTS also.