Phoenix Park tunnel: 4 trains per hour from 2016

spacetweek

Grandeeod wrote: »

You are not being thick. It depends on the progress of the signalling/engineering works and then on the "unions" in relation to drivers doing a job that they are paid to do.

Bit simplistic - They're trained to do a particular route and when you add a new section of track it's different working conditions that requires new training.

Grandeeod

spacetweek wrote: »

Bit simplistic - They're trained to do a particular route and when you add a new section of track it's different working conditions that requires new training.

Lets see what the unions have to say about it. Im not being simplistic at all. Realistic.

BoatMad

spacetweek wrote: »

Bit simplistic - They're trained to do a particular route and when you add a new section of track it's different working conditions that requires new training.

Route training is a typical part of a drivers job. Hence they get training on a new route , that is not " new" training , there is no additional task

GM228

spacetweek wrote: »

Bit simplistic - They're trained to do a particular route and when you add a new section of track it's different working conditions that requires new training.

Grandeeod wrote: »

Lets see what the unions have to say about it. Im not being simplistic at all. Realistic.

I think someone mentioned that drivers are already on route knowledge for this (in either this or the DART thread) so I'd imagine there are no issues with it's introduction.

LXFlyer

As I understand it the drivers have indeed been route training between Islandbridge Junction and Connolly.

The remaining section to Grand Canal Dock will take place when the re-signalling and associated track work is completed during the summer.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

As I understand it the drivers have indeed been route training between Islandbridge Junction and Connolly.

The remaining section to Grand Canal Dock will take place when the re-signalling and associated track work is completed during the summer.

GCD due to be commissioned this weekend AFAIK

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

GCD due to be commissioned this weekend AFAIK

Not yet - I think that there's at least one or two phases more!

Sam Russell

They have not yet connected the northern bound Dart connection to the third platform (not sure if it platform 1 or 3) - the overheads have been done as far as I can see.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

They have not yet connected the northern bound Dart connection to the third platform (not sure if it platform 1 or 3) - the overheads have been done as far as I can see.

There is going to be significant work this weekend - but all of this takes time.

The only time that they can test new signalling is when they have an extended possession.

As I said above I think there will be two more phases to the current work.

haulier

As far as I am aware, the connection from the UP MAIN, SOUTH END, into the new Platform [1] @ GCD will not be laid in this phase.

Connections from the PSE end into both PI @ GCD & BOSTON SDGS will be commissioned, but will not be available for use until further notice.

The DOWN RUNNING LOOP will also be reconnected & brought back into use

Sam Russell

haulier wrote: »

As far as I am aware, the connection from the UP MAIN, SOUTH END, into the new Platform [1] @ GCD will not be laid in this phase.

Connections from the PSE end into both PI @ GCD & BOSTON SDGS will be commissioned, but will not be available for use until further notice.

How many years is it taking to get this work done? There was a connection there and it was completely ripped out - that must be at least two years ago.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

How many years is it taking to get this work done? There was a connection there and it was completely ripped out - that must be at least two years ago.

With respect, by making a statement like that, you clearly don't appreciate the amount of work involved in completely resignalling a busy railway line and remodelling it, while keeping the railway fully operational. It's massive, and far more restrictive than working on renewing a road for example.

The work is staged, with implementation of each stage only taking place when engineers can get a full extended possession of the track (i.e. closure). If there is a problem with the equipment they would have to postpone the implementation until they can get another extended possession. They only get one chance.

We're now at completion of about the eighth stage of the current works (which stretch from Connolly to Sandymount) as I understand it. Initial clearance works started in August 2014, with full works commencing in early 2015. Each of those stages have involved track alterations, signalling alterations and revised layouts to allow different works be carried out. These have included slewing both running lines at different points in time.

There has also been significant work in strengthening the support structures beneath the unused platform track bed.

All of this was carried out whilst one of the busiest sections of railway in the country remains fully operational.

The project is on schedule for completion on time this Autumn.

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect, by making a statement like that, you clearly don't appreciate the amount of work involved in completely resignalling a busy railway line and remodelling it, while keeping the railway fully operational. It's massive, and far more restrictive than working on renewing a road for example.

The work is staged, with implementation of each stage only taking place when engineers can get a full extended possession of the track (i.e. closure). If there is a problem with the equipment they would have to postpone the implementation until they can get another extended possession. They only get one chance.

We're now at completion of about the eighth stage of the current works (which stretch from Connolly to Sandymount) as I understand it. Initial clearance works started in August 2014, with full works commencing in early 2015. Each of those stages have involved track alterations, signalling alterations and revised layouts to allow different works be carried out. These have included slewing both running lines at different points in time.

There has also been significant work in strengthening the support structures beneath the unused platform track bed.

All of this was carried out whilst one of the busiest sections of railway in the country remains fully operational.

The project is on schedule for completion on time this Autumn.

Glad to hear it.

I am only a casual observer, passing GCD very occasionally and not able to see exactly what work is being done.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

Glad to hear it.

I am only a casual observer, passing GCD very occasionally and not able to see exactly what work is being done.

With a resignalling project the bulk of the works will not be obvious to the naked eye - but it doesn't mean nothing is happening.

Captain Chaos

You can see alot of the extra cabling installed in the open trunking and tray routes from Connolly platform 7 anyway. Alot of it looks like it was thrown in very quickly as you can see some of the cables twisted around each other in the looms.

Paddico

Any update on this?

Surprised no paper has given an update

Jamie2k9

Paddico wrote: »

Any update on this?

Surprised no paper has given an update

Still end of the year, you won't hear anything form IE until September/October at the earliest.

Sam Russell

Paddico wrote: »

Any update on this?

Surprised no paper has given an update

They still have not connected Grand Canal Dock platform 1 to the Dart line from Lansdown. I would have thought that would be done by now.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

They still have not connected Grand Canal Dock platform 1 to the Dart line from Lansdown. I would have thought that would be done by now.

As I've repeatedly told you here - the project is being done in stages - re-routing the running lines will require another weekend closure - you don't really seem to grasp that remodelling a railway and completely resignalling it, whilst maintaining the current railway in full operation every day is exceptionally complex. Just because you expect things to be done a particular way does not follow that the civil and signalling engineers are going to do things in the manner you expect.

The project is, as I understand it, still on time - so why keep making these critical comments?

The project is not due to come into operation (I'd guess) until late October or November - people are just going to have to wait.

GM228

Sam Russell wrote: »

They still have not connected Grand Canal Dock platform 1 to the Dart line from Lansdown. I would have thought that would be done by now.

lxflyer wrote: »

As I've repeatedly told you here - the project is being done in stages - re-routing the running lines will require another weekend closure - you don't really seem to grasp that remodelling a railway and completely resignalling it, whilst maintaining the current railway in full operation every day is exceptionally complex. Just because you expect things to be done a particular way does not follow that the civil and signalling engineers are going to do things in the manner you expect.

The project is, as I understand it, still on time - so why keep making these critical comments?

The project is not due to come into operation (I'd guess) until late October or November - people are just going to have to wait.

The last stage of the current phase of the CCRP will see connecting up GCD platform 1 and turning platform 2 into a bay platform and is scheduled to be completed during the August bank holiday weekend.

The PPT project should be completed by October.

Sam Russell

GM228 wrote: »

The last stage of the current phase of the CCRP will see connecting up GCD platform 1 and turning platform 2 into a bay platform and is scheduled to be completed during the August bank holiday weekend.

The PPT project should be completed by October.

Thank you for the update.

Is the platform 2 still going to connect as it does now? In other words will North bound Darts still be able to use Platform 2 as well as Platform 1 when the job is completed?

GM228

Sam Russell wrote: »

Thank you for the update.

Is the platform 2 still going to connect as it does now? In other words will North bound Darts still be able to use Platform 2 as well as Platform 1 when the job is completed?

No platform 2 will have a set of buffers and the connection south end will be severed turning it into a bay platform to allow turn back facilities for the Kildare services without having to cross between oncoming north bound trains as north bound trains will run through platform 1 only.

MrMorooka

So am I right in my thoughts that the layout will be something like this?

LXFlyer

MrMorooka wrote: »

So am I right in my thoughts that the layout will be something like this?

Not quite.

Down DARTs will continue straight on along the running lines, only using the loop if there is a commuter train waiting to access GCD.

Up DART trains will cross over to the line coming out of the turnback platform immediately after GCD.

The rest of the line you have marked as Dart in the up direction will be for commuter trains to come out of the Boston Sidings or to store them as at present.

MrMorooka

lxflyer wrote: »

Not quite.

Down DARTs will continue straight on along the running lines, only using the loop if there is a commuter train waiting to access GCD.

Up DART trains will cross over to the line coming out of the turnback platform immediately after GCD.

The rest of the line you have marked as Dart in the up direction will be for commuter trains to come out of the Boston Sidings or to store them as at present.

Interesting, thanks. Are all Maynooth/Northern Line services currently terminating at Pearse planned to move to GCD? Because if so I can't see Boston sidings and the line connecting to them being very useful as it would require a double shunt to get to and from a platform. Or is the GCD terminus only for the new Kildare/PPT services and peak time use?

LXFlyer

MrMorooka wrote: »

Interesting, thanks. Are all Maynooth/Northern Line services currently terminating at Pearse planned to move to GCD? Because if so I can't see Boston sidings and the line connecting to them being very useful as it would require a double shunt to get to and from a platform. Or is the GCD terminus only for the new Kildare/PPT services and peak time use?

I can't see everything using GCD - There will still have to be some use of the Boston Sidings with trains starting & finishing at Pearse

GM228

MrMorooka wrote: »

Interesting, thanks. Are all Maynooth/Northern Line services currently terminating at Pearse planned to move to GCD? Because if so I can't see Boston sidings and the line connecting to them being very useful as it would require a double shunt to get to and from a platform. Or is the GCD terminus only for the new Kildare/PPT services and peak time use?

lxflyer wrote: »

I can't see everything using GCD - There will still have to be some use of the Boston Sidings with trains starting & finishing at Pearse

Only Kildare services will turn back from GCD, whilst Maynooth and Drogheda/Dundalk services will continue to operate to/from Pearse as normal.

LXFlyer

GM228 wrote: »

Only Kildare services will turn back from GCD, whilst Maynooth and Drogheda/Dundalk services will continue to operate to/from Pearse as normal.

We can't say that for sure yet - no timetable has been published. Off peak they may all use GCD, but at peak times I don't think the capacity will be there for them all to use GCD.

GM228

lxflyer wrote: »

We can't say that for sure yet - no timetable has been published. Off peak they may all use GCD, but at peak times I don't think the capacity will be there for them all to use GCD.

The draft plan is for all Kildare services to operate to/from GCD and existing services to continue as normal.

I have that from a good reliable source.

LXFlyer

GM228 wrote: »

The draft plan is for all Kildare services to operate to/from GCD and existing services to continue as normal.

I have that from a good reliable source.

I'd find that slightly difficult to believe - there's no reason certainly off-peak for all three routes not to use the turnback at GCD.

GM228

lxflyer wrote: »

I'd find that slightly difficult to believe - there's no reason certainly off-peak for all three routes not to use the turnback at GCD.

Only going by what I'm told, I suppose like any proposal that's subject to change so until we see the final draft we shall have to wait and see.

Vic_08

lxflyer wrote: »

I'd find that slightly difficult to believe - there's no reason certainly off-peak for all three routes not to use the turnback at GCD.

It will all depend on how confident they are that the timetable can be consistently adhered to.

With 10 min DART there will be 6 slots/hour in between that could reasonably be used. The question is what recovery time is going to be required; a 7-8 min turnaround at most would be required to allow 6 reversals per hour. With the same driver on an 8 car it will take 3-4 mins minimum so 4 minutes leeway at most before a delay starts to cascade to following services.

Next step would be to fit in after a second DART so add 10 minutes recovery to that and GCD has 3 slots per hour with more chance to recover a late running inbound service.

LXFlyer

Vic_08 wrote: »

It will all depend on how confident they are that the timetable can be consistently adhered to.

With 10 min DART there will be 6 slots/hour in between that could reasonably be used. The question is what recovery time is going to be required; a 7-8 min turnaround at most would be required to allow 6 reversals per hour. With the same driver on an 8 car it will take 3-4 mins minimum so 4 minutes leeway at most before a delay starts to cascade to following services.

Next step would be to fit in after a second DART so add 10 minutes recovery to that and GCD has 3 slots per hour with more chance to recover a late running inbound service.

The city centre resignalling will allow for more than 12 trains an hour - if that's all it delivered it would be fairly pathetic.

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

The city centre resignalling will allow for more than 12 trains an hour - if that's all it delivered it would be fairly pathetic.

I thought it allowed 20 trains per hour - that is one every 3 minutes.

The project will provide Iarnród Éireann with the ability to operate 20 trains in both directions through the Howth Junction to Grand Canal Dock line, which caters for Howth DARTs, Malahide DARTs, Northern Commuter trains, Belfast Enterprise services, Sligo Intercity and Maynooth commuter services, as well as other services in the Connolly to Grand Canal Dock area. Signalling on train lines regulate the safe movement of trains, and currently the system’s capacity stands at 12 trains per hour each way.

The Project has also taken in to consideration the need to modernise signalling equipment. Computer based interlocking will be used to replace the existing Relay based signalling systems in Howth/Howth Junction/Killester /Connolly and Pearse.

http://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/city-centre-resignalling

Vic_08

lxflyer wrote: »

The city centre resignalling will allow for more than 12 trains an hour - if that's all it delivered it would be fairly pathetic.

For peak running yes with the extra trains over the standard pattern mostly slotting in from stabling points. Some running through from Bray and Dun Laoghaire, some from Boston sidings plus Sligo and Belfasts from Connolly.

The maximum throughput of the link line and the number that can be turned around consistently in the core area are different considerations. The regular Dart+commuter off-peak will not need to squeeze the max capacity but should be as robust as possible with some of the intermediate slots used for the irregular services (Rosslare, Sligo, Belfast) and peak extras pre-positioned far enough in advance to ensure they are ready to slot in on time every time.

savagethegoat

it all sounds very interesting. Where will be the best place to go to witness the peak hour rush?

flyingsnail

savagethegoat wrote: »

it all sounds very interesting. Where will be the best place to go to witness the peak hour rush?

I would think the Pearse end of grand canal up platform. That should give you a good view of the Boston sidings, turn backs at grand canal, up and down dart + rosslare.

guylikeme

Apologies if this q has been done to death but...

Is there an opening date yet for this? Would love to be able get the train Athlone-GCD direct for the Ireland matches, bypassing Luas

LXFlyer

guylikeme wrote: »

Apologies if this q has been done to death but...

Is there an opening date yet for this? Would love to be able get the train Athlone-GCD direct for the Ireland matches, bypassing Luas

It has been done to death.

No there isn't a date yet - probably October/November.

You won't be able to get a train from Athlone to GCD - it would require multiple changes. Galway trains generally run non-stop between Portarlington and Heuston, which would mean changing onto a Portlaoise-Heuston stopper at Portarlington and again at Newbridge or stations closer to Dublin onto a train for GCD and there's no guarantee of a direct connection - I'd expect the Portlaoise and GCD trains to be half an hour apart to provide two trains an hour from commuter stations.

Also, GCD will still probably close around matches.

This service is designed as a commuter service - not really for Intercity passengers.

lxflyer

lxflyer wrote: »

It has been done to death.

No there isn't a date yet - probably October/November.

You won't be able to get a train from Athlone to GCD - it would require multiple changes. Galway trains generally run non-stop between Portarlington and Heuston, which would mean changing onto a Portlaoise-Heuston stopper at Portarlington and again at Newbridge or stations closer to Dublin onto a train for GCD and there's no guarantee of a direct connection - I'd expect the Portlaoise and GCD trains to be half an hour apart to provide two trains an hour from commuter stations.

Also, GCD will still probably close around matches.

This service is designed as a commuter service - not really for Intercity passengers.

I'm guessing that the commuter service will go out as far as hazelhatch and the inter city trains will do one stop between hazelhatch & park west to allow commuters to change trains.

LXFlyer

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm guessing that the commuter service will go out as far as hazelhatch and the inter city trains will do one stop between hazelhatch & park west to allow commuters to change trains.

I would expect GCD trains to go to Newbridge where there is a turnback platform, with maybe peak time extensions to/from Portlaoise.

There is already an hourly stopping service from Heuston to Portlaoise that feeds into the Intercity services at Kildare, Portarlington and Portlaoise.

I certainly do not expect additional stops to be be added to Intercity trains, adding journey time unnecessarily. That timetable pattern is well established now.

These GCD services are extra commuter services - not feeder trains for Intercity services.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

I certainly do not expect additional stops to be be added to Intercity trains, adding journey time unnecessarily. That timetable pattern is well established now.

These GCD services are extra commuter services - not feeder trains for Intercity services.

Why not. Not everyone wants to go to Heuston. They're called connections, not feeders.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Why not. Not everyone wants to go to Heuston. They're called connections, not feeders.

It's not as simple as that.

There's an hourly path for trains to Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford.

Those trains generally don't have a first stop until Portlaoise, Portarlington, Kildare or Newbridge respectively.

The Heuston-Portlaoise stopper facilitates connections from intermediate stations into those Intercity trains, and means those Intercity trains can have those extended non-stop sections.

Now given that the off-peak service pattern for the stations between Parkwest and (likely) Newbridge is going to be two trains per hour, one to Heuston and one to GCD, should they run almost one after another, facilitating a small number of connections, or should they run at equal intervals offering a balanced service from the intermediate stations to Dublin to a much greater number of passengers?

While offering connections is laudable, it's not always going to be feasible.

The notion that extra stops should be added to long distance Intercity services is a non-starter. The aim is to speed them up, not slow them down further.

ClovenHoof

lxflyer wrote: »

I certainly do not expect additional stops to be be added to Intercity trains, adding journey time unnecessarily. That timetable pattern is well established now.

These GCD services are extra commuter services - not feeder trains for Intercity services.

I have never seen the CIE mentality towards public transport so perfectly summed up in two small paragraphs!

LXFlyer

ClovenHoof wrote: »

I have never seen the CIE mentality towards public transport so perfectly summed up in two small paragraphs!

If you read the post directly above yours you will see exactly why I said what I said in very simple terms.

There's no need to be insulting about it.

It's all well and good saying x should connect into y, but there is often a bigger picture.

Adding extra stops to Intercity services is not the answer - it will just slow them down even more.

So perhaps less of the carping comments and actually think through the practical details of what the requirements would be and their impact on existing services.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

The notion that extra stops should be added to long distance Intercity services is a non-starter. The aim is to speed them up, not slow them down further.

Which helps some customers get to where they don't want to go even faster, often passing through where they do want to go to at high speed. Ah but shur it's for the greater good.

Vic_08

n97 mini wrote: »

Which helps some customers get to where they don't want to go even faster, often passing through where they do want to go to at high speed. Ah but shur it's for the greater good.

If I searched through your posting history do you think I would find complaints about the slow speed of Irish Rail Inter-city services? I think I would.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

Which helps some customers get to where they don't want to go even faster, often passing through where they do want to go to at high speed. Ah but shur it's for the greater good.

maybe those who are traveling from outer stations don't wish for their journeys to be a lot longer, when people can get off a bit earlier to make their connection? if they're was no way of making a connection at all then you would absolutely have a point. i agree what does exist isn't ideal but slowing down trains isn't ideal either.

GM228

From a friend in IE, part in bold is interesting.

Paths for new services (and some existing services diverted to GCD have also been identified) have been finalised and awaiting approval from the NTA, expected start date early November TBC.

end of the road

GM228 wrote: »

From a friend in IE, part in bold is interesting.

indeed very interesting. the new services will probably be extra portlaoises?