Primary School Patron Greystones CNS

ainemonks

KWETB are seeking sanction from the Department of Education and Skills to become the new patron of the New Primary School in Greystones and to establish a Community National School. We need parental support signatures prior to the 17th March 2015. to register your support please go to the KWETB website.

loyatemu

Educate Together are also applying for patronage of this school:
http://www.educatetogether.ie/greystones-2015

recedite

My understanding of KWETB is that it is the new name for the VEC which is better known for managing secondary schools.

On the question of the admissions policy, both ET and KWB are multidenominational and against any religious discrimination.

On the question of teaching religion, there is a difference. The ET model proposes teaching a broad view covering various religions, with any specific "religious instruction" being arranged by the parents themselves on the school premises, but outside of school hours.

The KWETB model proposes segregating the kids according to religion during religion class time, thus allowing the different versions of "religious instruction" to be taught during school hours.
Is this correct?

loyatemu

Kildare & Wicklow Education and Training Board - its the merged replacement for Wicklow and Kildare VECs

not sure about the religion aspect but there was (I think, I can't find the article) some controversy about Communion classes in a Dublin ETB school recently, where the non-Catholic kids were segregated out whilst the Communion instruction was taking place.

The ETBs have only recently started running primary schools - traditionally they were responsible for "vocational" secondary schools.

recedite

loyatemu wrote: »

where the non-Catholic kids were segregated out whilst the Communion instruction was taking place.

That is what you might expect in a RC school (parents have a constitutional right to opt their kids out of religious instruction in a publicly funded faith school)

But as the ETB are not supposed to be representing any particular religion, they would also have to provide alternative religious instruction appropriate to whatever other kids are in the school. So that would involve setting up classes to separately teach Muslim doctrine, COI, Presbyterian, Jehovahs Witness teachings, Hindu, atheist agnostic or whatever. With each type segregated according to their own kind. A lot of these specific doctrines would be blasphemous to the doctrines of others.

Obviously the more diverse the community, the more impractical the whole idea becomes.

RebekahF

My impression from talking to the ETB on Saturday in Greystones was that they teach a broad religious curriculum. Their religious classes teach about all religions, from Christianity to Hinduism etc and all the children gain a good understanding of all religions. Any specific requirements (Holy Communion etc) are taught after school. I thought it sounded quite good to be honest.

loyatemu

loyatemu wrote: »

not sure about the religion aspect but there was (I think, I can't find the article) some controversy about Communion classes in a Dublin ETB school recently, where the non-Catholic kids were segregated out whilst the Communion instruction was taking place.

right, here's one of the articles about this - the VEC when developing their Community National School program gave a guarantee to the Catholic Church that Catholic children in those schools would receive Catholic tuition.

My interpretation of this is that children in CNS will be segregated for religious education classes - I'm open to correction though.

recedite

RebekahF wrote: »

My impression from talking to the ETB on Saturday in Greystones was that they teach a broad religious curriculum. Their religious classes teach about all religions, from Christianity to Hinduism etc and all the children gain a good understanding of all religions. Any specific requirements (Holy Communion etc) are taught after school. I thought it sounded quite good to be honest.

What you are describing sounds more like ET than ETB.
Are you sure it was ETB?
ET is Educate Together, an independent patron.
ETB is Education and Training Board, affiliated to the county councils. Kildare CC and Wicklow CC pooled their resources to jointly form KWETB

I can understand them wanting to get away from the "vocational" aspect of the name VEC because it might imply the pupils are not expected to go on to third level education. But whoever came up with the ETB name should have known it would only cause ongoing confusion with existing ET schools.

ainemonks

The ETB's have different statutory roles than VECs . They have a more broad reaching responsibilities outside the schools/services they directly manage, they are stringently audited on finance, policies and use of monies. Since the creation of SOLAS they now also have responsibility for training as well as Education in the regions they serve. Their role in regional education management is growing and developing in line with the ETB Act. All of this is managed locally in the Community from Wicklow and Naas Town.

In County Wicklow alone the ETB has over 10, 000 students of all different types of genres, Post Primary, Adult Education, Third Level(PLC), Music Education (Bray Music School and Music Generation), Youth networks, Youth funding etc. All these are administered and managed locally in the Community.

It is important to point out that all Primary schools regardless of the model/ethos must follow the State Primary School Curriculum. Therefore their is no difference in the subjects or levels taught. After that it is parental choice, do they want religious instruction taught during the school day or not? What type of ethos do they want?. The Community National School model has developed a program called 'Goodness me Goodness you', see GMGY.ie, that covers all religions and none and general ethics, they also, if parents want, will put the different religious groups into their faith streams for faith development during the day. For more information on CNS schools go to their website CNS.ie. Parents in Greystones and Charlesland are asked to specify parental preference for the new school and the model of choice. To support the CNS model go to kwetb.ie before March 17th.

recedite

ainemonks wrote: »

The Community National School model has developed a program called 'Goodness me Goodness you', see GMGY.ie, that covers all religions and none and general ethics, they also, if parents want, will put the different religious groups into their faith streams for faith development during the day.

After googling that, the first thing that comes up is a Muslim group saying how bad it is for them. It seems the program was developed by the same person who developed the Alive-O program which is used in RC denominational schools. So basically it allows the RC program to be used in what is supposed to be a state school for everyone, simply by segregating off the immigrant kids from the majority group. I don't see how you can say thats a choice. If 25% of the class are told that what is coming up next in the lesson is not suitable for their ears, are you saying they have a choice on whether to leave the room or not?

Anyway aside from religion, what other aspect of ETB ethos is different to other schools? If you are asking parents to sign up their support on the website, you are effectively asking them to vote for ETB to be the patron/manager of the new school. People will want to know what it is they are voting for.

loyatemu

Why are the ETB "campaigning" for the patronage of this (or any other) school anyway - its one branch of government spending public money to effectively win a contract from another branch of government. Just another chapter in the farcical way education is run in Ireland.

ainemonks

The patronage process is limited in terms of expenditure to 300 Euros per applicant patron. Therefore applicant patrons are relying on social media, basic publications, networks and volunteerism in their campaigning. The Department of Education seek to understand what the parents in the locality want and they have determined that by opening up the patronage applications and seeking parental input that this is the most practical way of ensuring that the patron awarded has parental support.

The ethos of a ETB school is one of inclusivity, community, equality and one that seeks to reflect the larger society we live in today in Ireland or in this case Greystones. It is also a ethos that respects all religions and recognizes that for many parents they wish to have faith formation as part of the school day. A significant part of the ethos is one of community. The Goodness Me Goodness you multi belief education program was developed by a representative of each of the religions in Ireland and those who have no religion and it was coordinated by the national council for curriculum and assessment (NCCA) it is continuously being developed and is taking account of all feedback and inputs especially from parents. If interested in the program and CNS model it is certainly worth reviewing the website gmgy.ie you the community national school website CNS.ie for accurate information.

Again it is important to point out that all primary schools are bound to follow the state curriculum. I fully respect all peoples rights to education be it provided by religious, state (etb) or ET. I particularly personally like the CNS and ETB model as I believe it is a microcosm of the real society we live in today. I have reviewed the schools the ETB manage to date and as a parent of a 2 and 5 year old I am impressed - colasite raithin, colasite chill mhaintain, Avondale Communty College.....Naas CNS. Throughout history the VECs and ETBs have catered for all students when other providers would not and my personal story is that my uncle with polio and very bright in the 1950s the VEC school was the only school that took him in and gave him an exceptional education. Equality is not a new concept in ETBs. that is one of the many reasons I support the patronage campaign.

Serrano13

I just hope that whoever gets the patronage will give priority to children from within the Greystones, Delgany/ Kilcoole area. Has the catchment area been clearly defined by the Dept of Education?

recedite

ainemonks wrote: »

The Goodness Me Goodness you multi belief education program was developed by a representative of each of the religions in Ireland and those who have no religion.

Well, this is contradicted in the link from the Muslim community I gave earlier in post#10, which also details the concerns of humanist, CoI and Methodist representatives who all said the segregated class approach would be harmful.
The program was plainly devised by a representative of the catholic church, as mentioned in that link. The RCC said they would not "support" the schools otherwise. Although its not clear why the county councils require the RCC to support a school which is entirely state funded anyway.
Here's another link on the background to these new primary schools.

I agree that the VEC/ETB secondary schools are well managed, and that historically they were the most open and accessible of all schools. But a few generations ago all primary schools and most secondary schools were controlled by just two churches; RCC and CoI.
If these ETB primary schools had appeared then, they could have filled a niche and developed into what the ET schools are today. But now its 30 years too late; that ship has already sailed.

If parents want inclusivity, Educate Together does it better.
If parents want exclusivity, denominational schools do it better.

Shazerina

Is it a two-horse race? ETB vs ET?

Annasopra

Shazerina wrote: »

Is it a two-horse race? ETB vs ET?

Looks like it. I think the closing date is March 20th

ainemonks

Parents if interested in community national school for greystones please register your support on kwetb.ie

Shazerina

ainemonks wrote: »

If interested in the program and CNS model it is certainly worth reviewing the website gmgy.ie you the community national school website CNS.ie for accurate information.

http://www.ddletb.ie/Primary-Level/Goodness-Me-Goodness-You.aspx
I was just reading from the above site about the gmgy prog... These two paragraphs have left me feeling a bit gob smacked:

"CNS schools have a common multi-belief programme - “Goodness Me, Goodness You”. The children are taught together for most of the time, using stories, songs and poems from many belief traditions. 2 or 3 times a week, those who belong to a monotheistic background (e.g. Christians and Muslims) will say a prayer to God and the polytheists, Humanists and atheists will meditate on the lesson instead. This prayer or contemplation takes place at the end of the multi-belief class and is based on the lesson for that day. Children are used to being put into different groups for English, support and other lessons so it’s a natural movement for them.

For either three or four weeks during the year, children spend all belief classes in the main faith groups (Catholic, Christian, Muslim and Other to date) and are taught faith specific material. Programmes for all four belief groups are written by the same author so the classes are all exploring the same themes and topics. Teachers of all the programmes are given in-service and ongoing support by the programme author."

To me, it sounds like an integrated form of segregation...or a segregated form of integration. Or an irish answer to an irish problem!
I mean, let's replace faiths with skin colour and reread those paragraphs and I think most people would be abhorred. Or even read it as 'nationality' and again, it would sound bizarre and totally out of date and contrary to any version or definition of integration or inclusion. IMHO.
At least with educate together schools and their Learn TOGETHER curriculum, no faith formation takes place. Religions are taught about in a factual way, to facilitate knowledge and understanding of people around us. And it is only a quarter of that curriculum, so 9 weeks of the entire school year. Rather than 2 or 3 times every week plus a whole block of 3-4 weeks every year...

In conclusion, I don't think I'll be filling in an expression of interest form for kwetb I'm afraid, ainemonks. Sorry.

ainemonks

I have explored many different school options as I have a high level of interest in education, I am more than happy with cns model proposed by the ETB I fully believe that this model reflects the real actuality of the society we live in today , people practicing different faiths side by side and those who have none all living in the one community. I believe it is ridiculous to suggest that any qualified teacher would make students feel excluded or segregated whilst transitioning into faith groups after all a key part of the programme is about respect for those who practice different religions and those who do not follow a religious faith. I am very encouraged by what the kids could learn from each other and fully believe that real understanding of different religions will bring about a better society.

I hope the cns model comes into being, in my promotion I will not enter into a put down or denigration of any other education model and I am shocked that some posters feel that they have to do that here in order to promote their own beliefs. I certainly would not want my child to be educated to do this or to feel that is a good way to put their point across. I am so confident in the cns model I do not feel a need or desire to ridicule any other patron body......

Shazerina

ainemonks wrote: »

I have explored many different school options as I have a high level of interest in education, I am more than happy with cns model proposed by the ETB I fully believe that this model reflects the real actuality of the society we live in today , people practicing different faiths side by side and those who have none all living in the one community. I believe it is ridiculous to suggest that any qualified teacher would make students feel excluded or segregated whilst transitioning into faith groups after all a key part of the programme is about respect for those who practice different religions and those who do not follow a religious faith. I am very encouraged by what the kids could learn from each other and fully believe that real understanding of different religions will bring about a better society.

I hope the cns model comes into being, in my promotion I will not enter into a put down or denigration of any other education model and I am shocked that some posters feel that they have to do that here in order to promote their own beliefs. I certainly would not want my child to be educated to do this or to feel that is a good way to put their point across. I am so confident in the cns model I do not feel a need or desire to ridicule any other patron body......

I'm presuming that your post is in response to mine? Which was a response to reading about the gmgy curriculum as you suggested. I'm sorry if this has shocked you. It was a genuine reaction to this curriculum which you had directed those of us interested in this issue to read. I knew little about their program - in fact I couldn't have named it before you had detailed it here. And my response was not intended to promote anything or anyone else. Just as you know what you want for your children, so do I for mine. And what I have read of the gmgy curriculum makes me believe it is not something I want for mine. Therefore, I won't be filling an expression of interest form for a cns for greystones.

recedite

http://www.ddletb.ie/Primary-Level/Goodness-Me-Goodness-You.aspx

Some of that is very strange...

..the polytheists, Humanists and atheists will meditate on the lesson instead. This prayer or contemplation takes place at the end of the multi-belief class...

What if they aren't into prayer and meditation? Would a class in ethics, or the basic principles of philosophy not be better?

.. Programmes for all four belief groups are written by the same author so the classes are all exploring the same themes and topics..

Would that be the same author who wrote the Alive-O programme being used in the RC schools? Why does the RC representative get to write the religious program for all the others?

For either three or four weeks during the year, children spend all belief classes in the main faith groups (Catholic, Christian, Muslim and Other to date) and are taught faith specific material.

I could go on at length about why this "four groups" idea is nonsense, but here's a few pointers;
Catholic is not a separate religion to Christian. CoI consider themselves to be catholics, but not Roman Catholic.

RC are Christians. Why are they not in the Christian group? Obviously because they are assumed to be the majority group, and not because they have such major theological or doctrinal differences that they need a separate group.

The doctrine of Sunni Muslims is at least as different to Shia Muslims as RC is compared to Ulster Free Presbyterianism. Has ETB not heard about the trouble in the Middle East? If Sunni and Shia are thrown together, they are being disadvantaged purely because of their status as minority religions, and not for doctrinal reasons. Is it fair to disadvantage minority religions just because they are in the minority?

All the other world religions, plus everyone of no particular religion in the "other" group? Agnostics, Atheists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhists, Mormons, Hindus etc.. all meditating away happily together. Its a bizarre idea.

KWETB is asking people to give them control of a multi-million euro new public school that the people are paying for with their taxes. And we'll be stuck with whatever patron/manager gets hold of it, for a long time. Probably permanently. I don't think its unreasonable or "being negative" to ask awkward questions of any patron looking for that privilege.

ainemonks

Parents please remember that whilst a primary school is sanctioned by the Department in Greytones, the patron has not yet been determined. There appears to be two main contenders for the patronage - Education Together and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board with the Community National School (CNS) model. I have researched at length and I am promoting the CNS model with the KWETB Management.

I believe this model to be one that is truly reflective of the communities we live in today and offers a real insight, education and respect of the faiths and beliefs of many different peoples. Remember all schools must follow the national primary school curriculum and all teachers are trained in the same teaching colleges. in essence there is little difference in the teaching and learning it is really the faith development being offered during the day by the CNS model that is the key difference.

If interested in this model, which will offer another alternative to Greystones and one that will be managed/administered within the community, please register your support to KWETB.ie and click on New School Greystones. Logging your support will take no more than 1-2 minutes. All applications for patronage must be with the Department of Education by the 20th March.

loyatemu

ainemonks wrote: »

it is really the faith development being offered during the day by the CNS model that is the key difference.

If you want "faith development" why not send your kids to a Catholic school?

ainemonks

My kids are not catholic !

recedite

So which of the other 3 segregated minority groups do they belong in?

loyatemu

ainemonks wrote: »

My kids are not catholic !

why do you want to "develop their faith" then?

I'm not trying to be deliberately argumentative BTW, I just don't understand the CNS concept - it seems to be aimed at aimed at people who want to give their kids a somewhat religious based education but can't get into a catholic school.

IIRC the VECs originally got involved in primary education because of a shortage of school places in certain areas and the inability/unwillingness of other patron bodies to fill the gap, but that's not the case with this school.

Shazerina

Just been reading through some of the links to websites posted here by other posters(such as this one http://www.muslimparents.ie/about-gmgy.html) as the gmgy.ie website gives little info IMHO and some of the links are restricted or broken. I've contacted the NCCA who are responsible for the programme but have had no response yet. Personally, I'm really finding it hard to see how this is inclusive or integrated education? And I think children coming from non-religious homes might as well be in their local church-run school IF what I have read in those links is still true and accurate.

Shazerina

Kwetb won the patronage of the new school. Congrats to all who ran the campaign and good luck with the new school.
https://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/Establishing-a-New-School/New-Primary-Schools/Greystones_Assessment.pdf

recedite

I see from that link that ETB had 110 confirmed child place applicant/supporters on their books, and ET had only 94.
It was fairly close, but it seems to have come down to the fact that there is already an ET school in the catchment area.

The reasons given for the decision..

Both applicants have agreed to comply with the Department’s requirements for the establishment of the new school as set out in the published criteria.
The models of provision proposed by the applicants would strengthen multi-denominational provision in the area. The Community National School model would, however, also widen diversity and provide a model of provision that is not already available in either the Greystones/Delgany feeder area or any of the adjoining school feeder areas.
The overall parental demand for each model is relatively comparable. However, the demand for the Education and Training Board model of provision is stronger overall.

Parents supporting the Educate Together model of provision have that option open to them already.

Interesting that the Dept. checked up on all the names to see that date of birth was correct for the year of starting school, and that they all lived in the area. One was disqualified for not being born yet!
Ah well, hopefully the ETB model will turn out to be OK. Not as bad in practice as it is in theory.

sylwunia

Do I understand correctly that only children of parents who officially voted for patronage will be offered a place? What if the demand is much higher than approx 60 children for 2 junior infants classes?To my knowlkedge every child who is due to start school this September accepted a place in some school already.I didn't know about the voting in March and I know parents who didnt know about it either but might want to send their child to that school now.

recedite

sylwunia wrote: »

Do I understand correctly that only children of parents who officially voted for patronage will be offered a place?

No, both ETB and ET made a commitment when applying for the patronage that they would operate an equal access, non-discriminatory, admissions policy towards all children in the catchment area.

It is perhaps possible for a patron to renege on this commitment after being awarded the patronage, as has happened with the new secondary school being built at Blacklion (TCC). But there is reason to believe that ETB would have no interest in reneging; ie the VEC (as it was formerly known) has a long history of non-discriminatory admission policies.