HKC VS Siemens App Discussion Stickey Temp

2011

KoolKid wrote: »

Monitoring is purchased at a wholesale rate and sold on the same as any other product or service. That's business 101.
There is one big flaw in your comparison. There is no free options for central station monitoring.

There is a financial incentive to sell a service in both cases be it monitoring or an app. Once there is a financial incentive be it for selling an app or selling a monitoring service some individuals may not act in the best interests of the customer. That is my point, end of story.

You can try to turn this into a "bash HKC for their crazy app prices" because there is a free app available with other systems. Or you can even reply to the point that the monitoring alternatives that mean that a monitoring station fee can be avoided are inferior. However neither of these change the point I made above.

KoolKid

You seem to have some chip when it comes to HKC. No one is bashing, simply pointing out the alternatives.
Tell you what let's forget about the monitoring options for a minute and stop confusing the issue. After all this thread is about comparing apps. All monitoring via a central station has to be paid for, so you are not comparing like with like.
So if apps are the only option isn't the incentive going to be for the installer to promote the paid for option and not inform the end user of the free app options??

2011

KoolKid wrote: »

You seem to have some chip when it comes to HKC.

After 500 repeats of the same point in every thread that has anything to do with any alarm, it does get a bit tiresome

All monitoring via a central station has to be paid for, so you are not comparing like with like.

You are deliberately avoiding the point made here which is about a comparison to a commission being paid which has the potential to influence advice given be it for a HKC app or another service. However you choose to ignore this instead you use it as an opportunity to repeat the same point that I have already agreed with you on in this post where you ignore my question.

Somehow I think this ground will be covered by you again many times and HCK and thier apps will just keep on selling regardless.
Anyway I will leave you to it.

Stoner

I did notice recently that I couldn't see how a rebate could be given on a system as there is no field to indicate who the installer is.

I was looking at the HTC cost offerings a couple of weeks ago on a Friday I revisited the following Tuesday to see the services reduced but no cost change.
I don't see anything wrong with installers making a little money for ongoing app use.

I think we can safely say that on the basic range that "polling" every 8 hours is not really polling it is I guess but it's not much use IMHO.

We can also see that it's possible that HKC can just change services over night, or in my case over a weekend. I've seen this I understand that polling is a new enough service and they might have had their heart broken over it.

I would be concerned about how they just changed the offering

If I signed up two months ago, would my services be downgraded to the current offering? Has this happened, have people had their polling times increased to above what they signed up for

all their plans have had the polling times increased, at least three of the four of them anyway.
But 8 hours is not great, might be useful for a second holiday house but that's about it.

I can't see why it can't poll over ip every 5minutes anyway

I have to say that at this rate using both apps side by side that the Siemens offering is not only free but better IMHO. You can have X10 control for your heating and lights, add cameras etc all on the one app. Now that the previously superior polling option on HKC plan is effectively gone , I fail to see what the HKC app and basic plan has that's better than the Siemens one.

This is all not even considering that you can log in over your pc on the Siemens panel and perform a host of tasks, create calenders, limit users to calender times, set up triggers to get the alarm to actually be smart.

Smart can be defined as doing something over and above monitoring. My panel turns off my heating when I put it on full arm. It will also turn off the heating if i have too many windows open.

I have a calender for my Christmas lights and the panel controls them.

I don't want to offend anyone who is emotionally attached to a product but that is my unbiased opinion.
The Siemens app is the one people should actually pay for IMHO. Plus it's easy to set up and you don't need to set up a standing order for it as the HKC offering only has one payment option, standing order. I'd prefer to pay yearly via credit card.

The only issue with Siemens is that not many installers seem to favour it. I ask many installers that I meet in work and it seems that HKC are very popular here, the others not so much. That was the case before there was a HKC app too.
There appears to be a host of hkc installers, so there might be more competition there. Many have told me that HKC is very well supported and it easy to get parts for it and they find it easy to use and add to.

KoolKid

The thing with many HKC installers is they know nothing else. The Siemens app offers more but even I will admit GSD are ahead of both when it comes to alarm responses and value for money.
I find it interesting that everyone seems to think HKC are selling miles more than everyone else,but they won't attempt to put a figure on it when asked how many apps and server connections they reckon HKC have.
Siemens would be ahead here if you do the research.

Evolution1

Any plans signed up to before the plan change will not be downgraded. HKC would have to notify every subscriber of this change.

Jonathan

Evolution1 wrote: »

Any plans signed up to before the plan change will not be downgraded. HKC would have to notify every subscriber of this change.

Have you got a link to the new HKC plans and when/what changed?

I'm a HKC subscriber since last year. I presume I'm on the old plan?

fred funk }{

KoolKid wrote: »

The thing with many HKC installers is they know nothing else. The Siemens app offers more but even I will admit GSD are ahead of both when it comes to alarm responses and value for money.
I find it interesting that everyone seems to think HKC are selling miles more than everyone else,but they won't attempt to put a figure on it when asked how many apps and server connections they reckon HKC have.
Siemens would be ahead here if you do the research.

In the Irish market HKC would be miles ahead of the rest. Obviously Siemens would have more connections in total as HKC aren't in those markets that they're in.

Don't know about GSD but I don't see many of their boxes about.

fred funk }{

Jonathan wrote: »

Have you got a link to the new HKC plans and when/what changed?

I'm a HKC subscriber since last year. I presume I'm on the old plan?

Nothing will change for you.

John Kelly of

Stoner wrote: »

I fail to see what the HKC app and basic plan has that's better than the Siemens one.

This is all not even considering that you can log in over your pc on the Siemens panel and perform a host of tasks, create calenders, limit users to calender times, set up triggers to get the alarm to actually be smart.

Smart can be defined as doing something over and above monitoring. My panel turns off my heating when I put it on full arm. It will also turn off the heating if i have too many windows open.

I have a calender for my Christmas lights and the panel controls them.

I don't want to offend anyone who is emotionally attached to a product but that is my unbiased opinion.
The Siemens app is the one people should actually pay for IMHO. Plus it's easy to set up and you don't need to set up a standing order for it as the HKC offering only has one payment option, standing order. I'd prefer to pay yearly via credit card.

The only issue with Siemens is that not many installers seem to favour it. I ask many installers that I meet in work and it seems that HKC are very popular here, the others not so much. That was the case before there was a HKC app too.
There appears to be a host of hkc installers, so there might be more competition there. Many have told me that HKC is very well supported and it easy to get parts for it and they find it easy to use and add to.

Mabye I'm wrong but the hkc system will send you a text and Siemens free app won't so if you are someplace with no access to the internet but you do have mobile signal you will know when your alarm is activated with hkc and you won't with Siemens free app?.
I agree it's a pain that hkc don't do a free version without text so they can match Siemens for certain customers needs but there are other things to consider which answers your final point about why hkc are more popular.
I will give you an example:
The other day I went to a 'wired' house to fit a hkc 1070 panel. After installing the control panel I found that many of the wires were no good as someone had cut them while doing renovations but I was able to use a few of hkc excellent wireless sensors to bridge the gaps and solve the problem. These hkc wireless sensors have terminals on them that allow several wired windows and doors and openings to be connected to 1 wireless sensor which saves a fortune in some situations. If I was a user of Siemens kit I would have been forced to use the inferior and ineffective Israeli wireless sensors that Siemens use. No thanks. That sort of thing happens a lot.

KoolKid

Your information is a bit out if date. Siemens have not used Visonic for a number of years.
A bit of a desperate bid bringing politics into the argument. Also we are comparing apps not the panels in general.
I also wouldn't judge the number of GSD systems by the bell box's you see. The majority of ours would be on wired bells. Likewise not all HKC sabs would be connected to a HKC system.
Any system can be set up to use SMS or voice as a backup to IP. Why do guys promoting HKC keep bringing this up as if it is something unique to HKC?

Stoner

John Kelly of wrote:

Mabye I'm wrong but the hkc system will send you a text and Siemens free app won't so if you are someplace with no access to the internet but you do have mobile signal you will know when your alarm is activated with hkc and you won't with Siemens free app?. I agree it's a pain that hkc don't do a free version without text so they can match .

Thanks John. I understood that installers like HKC for a reason am do don't think it's because they don't know any better . I was purely making comments based on the app and connectivity of the two.
My Siemens panel has a sim card installed and I pay for text alerts.

I've no issue paying at all. Or paying for for the HKC app or services. I'd pay for the Siemens app too.


I'd rather not have a standing order though and I'd like the polling option I saw on a Friday but because I did not have all my bank details handy when I went to sign up again on a Tuesday I got a lesser services.

Thats said we might be hung up on polling it wasn't even an issue last year.

This thread is not really about sensors or equipment, just the app I understand there are big advantages between the systems and which system is the best is a little above my head at the. But I've used both apps I had my own app based on texts and url commands for the siemens panel running three years ago. I still had to pay about 20-30 euro a year to keep a sim alive I know others pay less but I didn't.

Thing about an app is that is can be rewritten or added to so I doubt this is done and dusted

John Kelly of

Oh I didn't realise that they stopped using Visonic. What options would you have with a Siemens panel for the situation I mentioned above? Is it true that they only have wireless contacts and no shocks? And I don't believe you can simply compare apps and ignore other important considerations like that.

Stoner

Lol John, that is exactly what this thread is. You can open a new thread about wireless sensors on the main forum. But this is the app sticky.

Not everyone will care about apps. But we needed a focal point. Looking at one if my posts I could be to blame for directing it this way, but we are back later on track now 

John Kelly of

right sorry

KoolKid

Siemens/Vanderbilt have today launced SPC Connect v1.1

This now gives free polling and notification of ATS up & down.
It also will notify of entry time start as well as alarm events.
These followed ATS down would alert you in the event of a smash & grab scenario.

V1.2 is now being tested which will also include push notifications.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

This now gives free polling

Did it not already have polling?

KoolKid wrote: »

All these versions poll

KoolKid

Yes (as we have already covered), but we now have the added benefit of notification down the IP path as well. This along with the smash & grab scenario and without any charges or having to sign up for monthly subscriptions, puts this up there with GSD. I have been testing this & you get network fails in a few minutes .

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

Yes (as we have already covered), but we now have the added benefit of notification down the IP path as well. This along with the smash & grab scenario and without any charges or having to sign up for monthly subscriptions, puts this up there with GSD. I have been testing this & you get network fails in a few minutes .

Is the polling using GPRS free also?

Not everyone would have an IP connection in their home.

KoolKid

We have covered all these options before. I am posting the updates for SPC Connect V1.1

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

We have covered all these options before. I am posting the updates for SPC Connect V1.1

I have read what has being posted.
You did bring up about polling being a new feature!!!

KoolKid wrote: »

sign up for monthly subscriptions

Is the polling using GPRS free also?

KoolKid

There are lots of different options and packages available for self monitoring via GPRS . I would recommend users to ask their installer about what would suit based on their needs.
Interesting that you mention not everyone has IP. I know. Also not everyone has GPRS or mobile coverage. For that purpose we are also testing sending alerts to the portal via packages down any landline.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

There are lots of different options and packages available for self monitoring via GPRS . I would recommend users to ask their installer about what would suit based on their needs.
Interesting that you mention not everyone has IP. I know. Also not everyone has GPRS or mobile coverage. For that purpose we are also testing sending alerts to the portal via packages down any landline.

Packages at a fee. Just takes the free out of it.

KoolKid

That would depend on you phone packages etc.
I would be recommending this as better value than monthly subscriptions with much slower polling .
Does anyone know if HKC or Risco have developed smash & grab notifications yet?

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

That would depend on you phone packages etc.
I would be recommending this as better value than monthly subscriptions with much slower polling .
Does anyone know if HKC or Risco have developed smash & grab notifications yet?

Still not free no matter what way you put it

Anyway, smash and grab is a good feature.
I would not just be depending on IP as a communication path using it tho, especially the way new houses are built.
HKC are to be releasing a version of smash and grab.
I dont have a release date.

hatchman

What exactly does the smash and grab mean ?

altor

hatchman wrote: »

What exactly does the smash and grab mean ?

If an intruder comes in your front door the system sends a signal to the server. If it does not receive an unset within a pre programmed time you get a smash and grab alert to your phone.

hatchman

So a slighter quicker alert than when the alarm would go off anyways ?

altor

hatchman wrote: »

So a slighter quicker alert than when the alarm would go off anyways ?

Yes and no.
It really all depends on how it is set up although it is a good feature to have.
Not knocking it all.

I would expect a tamper event from a panel being attacked quicker than the smash and grab.

KoolKid

hatchman wrote: »

So a slighter quicker alert than when the alarm would go off anyways ?

No, its a lot more than that.. It means you will get the alert even if the system is pulled off the wall & totally destroyed. These type of alerts were developed by GSD after the recent PW issues were intruders would break in the front door , pull the panel off the wall & into a sink of water before the panel had time to send any alert. I was involved in getting this introduced across the SPC range.
With Siemens/Vanderbilt & GSD the alerts come from the servers & not the alarm panel. So once an entry time or alarm event occurs there is nothing an intruder can do at the property to prevent the alerts going out.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

I would expect a tamper event from a panel being attacked quicker than the smash and grab.

While I agree with this, its also possible the tamper alert won't get through as the network could disconnect before that event.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

These type of alerts were developed by GSD

Are you serious :eek:
Do a bit of research before claiming such a thing.

KoolKid

They were the first Panels I seen with the feature. Who had it before them?

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

While I agree with this, its also possible the tamper alert won't get through as the network could disconnect before that event.

Same can be applied before an intruder gains access to a home.

KoolKid

Thats where the good polling times come in..

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

They were the first Panels I seen with the feature. Who had it before them?

Its an American feature used on systems over there.
To claim GSD developed it is a laugh in itself

KoolKid

First to develop it over here so. Ahead of most of the bigger players. Pretty impressive either way.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

First to develop it over here so. Ahead of most of the bigger players. Pretty impressive either way.

They implemented it into their system.
Developed :rolleyes:

Evolution1

GSD did not come up with that feature. To claim they are the first to develop it is untrue. As already discussed on here before.

HKC will be releasing a more updated feature rich version of smash and crash.

The American systems use a type of smash and crash but it's a very well kept secret

The phone watch panels over here are capable of using a type of smash and crash but they lack this feature as well as a lot of features phonewatch disable.

KoolKid

American system smash and crash?
Well kept secret?
GSD done well to implement this so.
Theirs and Siemens /Vanderbilt are still the best that's on offer so far IMO.
Also as there are no subscription charges there is no risk installers are being motivated by commission payments.

fred funk }{

KoolKid wrote: »

Siemens/Vanderbilt have today launced SPC Connect v1.1

This now gives free polling and notification of ATS up & down.
It also will notify of entry time start as well as alarm events.
These followed ATS down would alert you in the event of a smash & grab scenario.

V1.2 is now being tested which will also include push notifications.

A welcomed update but I'm not looking forward to losing the Siemens name. Vanderbilt doesn't have the same ring to it. Siemens is a household name associated with quality/reliability.

KoolKid

Same panel same quality.
Polling can be set to 30 seconds with notifications after 3 minutes.
Once V1.2 comes with the push notifications they really have everything covered I'd say.

Evolution1

KoolKid wrote: »

American system smash and crash?
Well kept secret?
GSD done well to implement this so.
Theirs and Siemens /Vanderbilt are still the best that's on offer so far IMO.
Also as there are no subscription charges there is no risk installers are being motivated by commission payments.

no no. Implement and developing are two very different things. Its not an achievement.

KoolKid

Sounds like you are suggesting something something against GSDs systems and features?

fred funk }{

KoolKid wrote: »

Same panel same quality.
Polling can be set to 30 seconds with notifications after 3 minutes.
Once V1.2 comes with the push notifications they really have everything covered I'd say.

Yes, I know it will be the same. My point was about the brand name. Trying to sell a Vanderbilt system as opposed to a Siemens might be a bit more of a sell and there will be a bit of "it used to be Siemens" .

KoolKid

I have been pushing the Vanderbilt brand slowly. I haven't seen any negative impact so far.
The notifications follow the ATS settings . They can be set right up to polling every 8 seconds and notifications sent after 20 seconds.
In all the testing the alerts arrive almost to the second.

Reading back over this thread today they are really hitting all the things people criticized them for lacking a few months ago.

altor

Evolution1 wrote: »

Implement and developing are two very different things.

I could not agree more.
Good feature to have tho.

Brusna

KoolKid wrote: »

Siemens/Vanderbilt have today launced SPC Connect v1.1

This now gives free polling and notification of ATS up & down.
It also will notify of entry time start as well as alarm events.
These followed ATS down would alert you in the event of a smash & grab scenario.

V1.2 is now being tested which will also include push notifications.

I set up an account on the new SPC Connect but I can't register my panel to the site.

Do I need to be on the latest version of the firmware 3.6.5 for it to work? I am on 3.2.5 now.

KoolKid

You have to be on version 360 or higher.

Brusna

KoolKid wrote: »

You have to be on version 360 or higher.

Ok thanks, any chance you could send me the files please?