Dunnes workers to strike

Eric Cartman

end of the road wrote: »

and hopefully you are blocked and prevented from doing so if you even try it, which you won't. you won't be crossing any picket i can tell you that for sure, because people like you never do. its just all nonsense. no struggling or no business owners get shafted by unions and insane demands at all. you won't be showing solidarity with anyone as you don't even know the meaning of the word, you will be showing contempt for those who keep such businesses running, the staff.

Ill even come on here the day of the strike and post a picture of my receipt. Dunnes will get my money that day.

not at all, if they don't suit, force a change. nobody is being "bailed out" its calling for better terms and conditions, something those of you living in the old days of the peasant worker being greatful and cowering at the employers feat wouldn't understand anything about

force a change, are you serious. Dunnes will have you out on your ear by the days end. you'd be more likely to solve israel palestine.

end of the road

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Ill even come on here the day of the strike and post a picture of my receipt. Dunnes will get my money that day.

force a change, are you serious. Dunnes will have you out on your ear by the days end. you'd be more likely to solve israel palestine.

no, the workers could blockade them if they tried to have them out on their ear, its what i would expect

sarumite

end of the road wrote: »

not at all. eroding workers rights and conditions until they can get to as near slave labour as legally possible

How close to slave labour can you get legally? If the legal minimum is 'near slave labour' then the problem is political and the unions need to be blaming the government and not employers.

end of the road

sarumite wrote: »

How close to slave labour can you get legally? If the legal minimum is 'near slave labour' then the problem is political and the unions need to be blaming the government and not employers.

they have been and are blaming the government as well as the employers taking advantage

nice_guy80

Aldi and Lidl are not owned by shareholders, so are not driven to deliver big margins

The families behind the to German brands are happy to take modest returns off a large turnover, knowing they work their staff to the bone, squeeze every efficiency out of their buying, delivery and supply network.

I'm still amazed that Dunnes have the second biggest market share in Ireland after Supervalu.
I would have expected Sainsburys, Asda or another large UK multiple to come in wih some large stores, seeing as so much Irish food gets exported to the UK

PopePalpatine

Eric Cartman wrote: »

It's people like you who convince me a totally unfettered free market is a terrible idea.

BOHtox

Not G.R wrote: »

Jesus some of the posts in this thread. Low paid workers looking for the hours they actually work in writing and guaranteed week to week & to be treated a little fairer. Anyone passing this picket should be really proud of themselves.

I work in Dunnes too. I'm leaving in a few weeks though. I've worked there the last few years and I'm hoping to get a higher paid job in the summer. Do you think I'd get my foot in the door anywhere if the only place I've ever worked won't give me a reference? Since I started working there, there have been 2 or 3 unscheduled pay increases, and scheduled ones too, new uniforms, better working conditions etc. I myself too have managed to negotiate working conditions by constructively talking to the managers in the shop, albeit not pay related directly, but related to my hours and days

If they say jobs are at risk for anyone who strikes and I'm left unemployed do you think I'm ever going to get a job?
Interviewer: "Where were you working the last few years?"
Me: "Eh in Dunnes... blah blah blah"
Interviewer: "And do you have a reference from your HR there?"
Me: "Eh no... I'll have a nice day, thank you"

Eric Cartman

PopePalpatine wrote: »

It's people like you who convince me a totally unfettered free market is a terrible idea.

its a terrible idea for lazy and workshy people, its a fantastic idea for those with ambition and good work ethic.

Sheldons Brain

Eric Cartman wrote: »

its a terrible idea for lazy and workshy people, its a fantastic idea for those with ambition and good work ethic.

This strike is not about workshy people, it is about people who want to work but who would like some predictability in when they will work.

Meanwhile the real workshy sit on the dole, getting almost as much, and have complete predictability in their lives.

Brendan Bendar

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

This strike is not about workshy people, it is about people who want to work but who would like some predictability in when they will work.

Meanwhile the real workshy sit on the dole, getting almost as much, and have complete predictability in their lives.

Good point there mate

Eric Cartman

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

This strike is not about workshy people, it is about people who want to work but who would like some predictability in when they will work.

Meanwhile the real workshy sit on the dole, getting almost as much, and have complete predictability in their lives.

My post above was a bit off topic in response to pope palpetine , I am under no circumstances calling dunnes workers workshy , they have a job which they go to for all their hours which is more than can be said for the free money brigade.

We have a two fold problem in this scenario which you have touched upon . 1) the rediculous rates of welfare that the Irish government pay out, which sets the price floor on a lot of goods and drives up inflation, also it makes work seem unattractive.



2) Dunnes stores cannot deliver goods at an affordable price and still turn a profit if it meets the employees demands , everyone here has to remember that dunnes isnt a nonprofit, their only job is to make money , and they need staff in a shop , having regularity and a "living wage" is just impossible in current market conditions

sdanseo

Eric Cartman wrote: »

My post above was a bit off topic in response to pope palpetine , I am under no circumstances calling dunnes workers workshy , they have a job which they go to for all their hours which is more than can be said for the free money brigade.

We have a two fold problem in this scenario which you have touched upon . 1) the rediculous rates of welfare that the Irish government pay out, which sets the price floor on a lot of goods and drives up inflation, also it makes work seem unattractive.



2) Dunnes stores cannot deliver goods at an affordable price and still turn a profit if it meets the employees demands , everyone here has to remember that dunnes isnt a nonprofit, their only job is to make money , and they need staff in a shop , having regularity and a "living wage" is just impossible in current market conditions

I disagree, as would anyone who has worked in an area like Sales in a company with a relatively good reputation.

It is perfectly possible to turn a profit in an area with modest margin whilst also treating your staff generously and delivering an excellent experience to customers, especially in a company the size of Dunnes who can benefit from economies of scale. Why? Because staff who are treated well become invested in their company even in jobs at the lowest levels of the pecking order, and will inevitably deliver more in the long run in terms of productivity and even insight into how improvements can be made.

Unfortunately, Dunnes don't believe in this, and if an employee tried to pass an insight or suggestion up the chain they'd probably be fired for insubordination.

There's free market and there's a sensible way of operating a business. They are not one and the same.

Eric Cartman

sdanseo wrote: »

I disagree, as would anyone who has worked in an area like Sales in a company with a relatively good reputation.

It is perfectly possible to turn a profit in an area with modest margin whilst also treating your staff generously and delivering an excellent experience to customers, especially in a company the size of Dunnes who can benefit from economies of scale. Why?Because staff who are treated well become invested in their company even in jobs at the lowest levels of the pecking order, and will inevitably deliver more in the long run in terms of productivity and even insight into how improvements can be made.

Unfortunately, Dunnes don't believe in this, and if an employee tried to pass an insight or suggestion up the chain they'd probably be fired for insubordination.

There's free market and there's a sensible way of operating a business. They are not one and the same.

I think theres two ways of running a business, as a them and us (management vs staff) or as a team, the most successful companies run as a team where everybody understands their place but nobody is looked down on. Id agree that dunnes probably hasnt been functioning as a team .

However bringing in a union and strike tactics to resolve an issue is cementing the "them and us" scenario forever more. its like bringing in the school bully to sort out a playground disagreement, everyone loses.

You also have to remember that supervisors, the person who does your rosters and all the others below corporate all started like you. Leave out the pay rates and sit down with them to agree a more suitable schedule.

cerastes

Head The Wall wrote: »

It's a job in a supermarket we are discussing here, they have always been associated with part time and temporary work. It's irrelevant if people always need to buy stuff in a supermarket or not. Dunnes are free to decide how to run their business.

These people decided to sign 15 hour contracts and now want to change that by bullying via the union.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

treating retail work as a permanent mortgage paying job or a job for life is just lunacy. Dunnes, like all supermarkets should be treated as a stepping stone in your career, not the end of it (unless you progress to management) the second somebody with 1 day less retail experience than you gets promoted to management, then its time to call it quits and find something else.

these people are striking like dunnes is their only avenue. I will be breaking the picket when they do strike as a show of solidarity with struggling business owners who get shafted by unions and insane demands every day of the week.

You are talking nonsense, as another poster said. Some of these people have families, even those that don't would need some predictability in their lives if they want to treat Dunne's as a stepping stone, how do you suggest someone improves themselves if they are on a wage such that it limits their progression? Or certainty of working hours so they could even do a course that might lead to progression?
I understand that Dunne's is a business and needs to operate in a way that it can compete, but there is a certain minimum way in which you can deal with people/staff.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I respect everyone working , but if your in a crap job move, lifes too short, there are jobs out there if you have skills. Dunnes provides employment with set terms, if you don't like them don't work there. It perfectly suits a lot of students and people getting on the career ladder.

Expecting dunnes to bail you out because you can't get another job is just a fruitless exercise.

Are there plenty of jobs? See above about acquiring skills when you have no certainty in your working conditions!

Eric Cartman wrote: »

if that was the level of my skill set , yes , the value of my labour is currently a lot higher than that and I am in demand so don't need to. But if in the morning I had no work , then yes I would do any position for money.

you have to remember that till workers have been automated, 4 till lanes cost approx 125,000 euro to install, thats 31250 per till , 85 euro per day for a year, 7.80 an hour (11 hours a day , 364 days a year) and after that its paid for itself. Dunnes could buy new automated tills every single year and still make money over the rates they currently pay staff. When in reality these machines last 5-7 years with very little maintenance. One human can look after 6 or even 8 self service lanes.

As much as I am interested in automation, there are limits to what I want it to do, so I don't mind if my heating is controlled but putting people out of work for a task easily done by people. The self serve tills are a job such a machine can do well, but what else can it do? whereas people are much more adaptable and at lower costs than machines.
I avoid those self serve tills unless its absolutely essential, which it rarely is.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

you will go far with an attitude like that. Best of luck mate and if you get any evil eyes or negative comments I'm sure management will be very helpful in removing those responsible.



if dunnes went ahead with all these demands they'd only be able to afford about 10,000 staff. The people protesting don't realise that 15 hours for them can't be afforded unless somebody else gets 0.

No one he seems to be demanding more hours is it, its the certainty of hours,which seems like Dunne's or any shop of this sort would know when the demand is, people are creatures of habit and I suspect the shopping habits of people fit a very routine and predictable pattern.

sdanseo

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I think theres two ways of running a business, as a them and us (management vs staff) or as a team, the most successful companies run as a team where everybody understands their place but nobody is looked down on. Id agree that dunnes probably hasnt been functioning as a team .

However bringing in a union and strike tactics to resolve an issue is cementing the "them and us" scenario forever more. its like bringing in the school bully to sort out a playground disagreement, everyone loses.

You also have to remember that supervisors, the person who does your rosters and all the others below corporate all started like you. Leave out the pay rates and sit down with them to agree a more suitable schedule.

I don't necessarily agree that strikes do much for the staff in the long run either. Sure, the top brass might compromise on a few things to get them back to work, but more likely as was mentioned above, there will just be bad blood the next day and relations become even more strained.

What Dunnes need to do as a company is engage with their staff and be willing to bend a little to gain a lot. The fact that some companies can't see this as being a very mild sacrifice in the long term really annoys me.

There's also the argument that although the grocery market is competitive here, Dunnes have local monopolies in many of their locations - I can think of two or three within 15 minutes of me which have no competition within a km or so. Funny enough, these tend to be the most run-down stores in the poorest conditions, and here's why:

people (sheep, or those who can't travel further for whatever reason) living locally will continue to stream through the doors to buy in these situations, and that's something which will make management in those places simply cease to care about how much customer service they give. At the end of the day, in these cases, the staff suffer poor conditions, and the customers ultimately suffer terrible service. I recently worked near one of the branches I mentioned and although it pained me to go near the place, in the space of a lunch hour, there were almost no alternatives.

(I always swore blind when I no longer worked nearby I'd throw a mickey fit in the place, oddly it turns out I have more self control than that :P )

Eric Cartman

cerastes wrote: »

As much as I am interested in automation, there are limits to what I want it to do, so I don't mind if my heating is controlled but putting people out of work for a task easily done by people. The self serve tills are a job such a machine can do well, but what else can it do? whereas people are much more adaptable and at lower costs than machines.
I avoid those self serve tills unless its absolutely essential, which it rarely is.

The easiest way in this world to make money is to come up with an idea of how to replace people with machines. Machines are always cheaper, more reliable and repeat every task with the accuracy and results of the first. 90% automated supermarkets will be here within my lifetime. http://mentalfloss.com/article/58570/remembering-keedoozle-americas-first-fully-automated-grocery-store keedoozle was the first proof of concept in 1949 , its been worked on an awful lot since then.

No one he seems to be demanding more hours is it, its the certainty of hours,which seems like Dunne's or any shop of this sort would know when the demand is, people are creatures of habit and I suspect the shopping habits of people fit a very routine and predictable pattern.

if the day is suddenly very sunny more people buy icecream , if a new construction project opens deli counter sales go up , graduation day , Leaving cert finished day , - alcohol and snack food sales go up. The amount of variables in shopping habbits are so wide that predicting it is hard to do . if you expect 500 customers in a day and suddenly 2000 show up , what are you to do, leave really long queues and spills in aisles because "the roster says that those people arent in today" or call some staff.

and on the flipside to that , you get 20 staff in on a day and not a single person walks through the door, and you cant explain it, should all 20 of those people sit around doing almost nothing all day just because the roster says ?

cerastes

BOHtox wrote: »

I work in Dunnes too. I'm leaving in a few weeks though. I've worked there the last few years and I'm hoping to get a higher paid job in the summer. Do you think I'd get my foot in the door anywhere if the only place I've ever worked won't give me a reference? Since I started working there, there have been 2 or 3 unscheduled pay increases, and scheduled ones too, new uniforms, better working conditions etc. I myself too have managed to negotiate working conditions by constructively talking to the managers in the shop, albeit not pay related directly, but related to my hours and days

If they say jobs are at risk for anyone who strikes and I'm left unemployed do you think I'm ever going to get a job?
Interviewer: "Where were you working the last few years?"
Me: "Eh in Dunnes... blah blah blah"
Interviewer: "And do you have a reference from your HR there?"
Me: "Eh no... I'll have a nice day, thank you"

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The easiest way in this world to make money is to come up with an idea of how to replace people with machines. Machines are always cheaper, more reliable and repeat every task with the accuracy and results of the first. 90% automated supermarkets will be here within my lifetime. http://mentalfloss.com/article/58570/remembering-keedoozle-americas-first-fully-automated-grocery-store keedoozle was the first proof of concept in 1949 , its been worked on an awful lot since then.


if the day is suddenly very sunny more people buy icecream , if a new construction project opens deli counter sales go up , graduation day , Leaving cert finished day , - alcohol and snack food sales go up. The amount of variables in shopping habbits are so wide that predicting it is hard to do . if you expect 500 customers in a day and suddenly 2000 show up , what are you to do, leave really long queues and spills in aisles because "the roster says that those people arent in today" or call some staff.

and on the flipside to that , you get 20 staff in on a day and not a single person walks through the door, and you cant explain it, should all 20 of those people sit around doing almost nothing all day just because the roster says ?

That's part of predicting demand, you are saying that that can't be done, that enough staff wouldn't be willing to work extra or change their routine sometimes, or that a change in customer footfall of the order of multiples of the usual level would occur without being predicted based on previous similar conditions.

As for replacing people with machines completely or more so, right sure, machines are not always suited to tasks people can do better or visa versa, nether are machines necessarily cheaper, not complicated machines, people are adaptable and can work around problems, even simple things for us would require a kind of complexity and reliabilty in machines it will take a long time to equate to or replace what people can do.
Neither would people necessarily support it and other businesses not able to compete in a technical arms race could use it to increase their sales by pointing to supporting jobs.
Why don't aldi or lidl have automated tellers? Do you think a machine can process different transactions as rapidly or deal with problems by customers using a machine when coming up against some non standard or unrecognised product? The queues would be out the back door,

Sheldons Brain

Eric Cartman wrote: »

if the day is suddenly very sunny more people buy icecream , if a new construction project opens deli counter sales go up , graduation day , Leaving cert finished day , - alcohol and snack food sales go up. The amount of variables in shopping habbits are so wide that predicting it is hard to do .

Grocery shopping is not that variable. Construction projects are long term by nature, graduations, end of leaving cert (what has this to do with Dunnes?) are entirely predictable a year in advance.

My point is that proper management, aided by proper analytics, can greatly improve the scheduling of staff to everyone's benefit. Some of this is a wish by management not to have to bother managing because all of the flexibility falls on the staff.

Sheldons Brain

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Grocery shopping is not that variable.

Retail is fickle. Sure you see certain people come in on the same day every week but by and large people shop around a hell of a lot more these days. You can't depend on people's business every week anymore.

BoatMad

I suspect the problem at Dunnes is more to do with the relationship issues then specifics . There are loads of businesses with low hour contracts , whose employees are not on strike

Eric Cartman

BoatMad wrote: »

I suspect the problem at Dunnes is more to do with the relationship issues then specifics . There are loads of businesses with low hour contracts , whose employees are not on strike

+1 , I would imagine a lot of it has to do with UNITE coming in, putting diamonds in their eyes and pretending a union can get them all 15-30 hours a week, 11-12 quid an hour, never work weekends and a new puppy for christmas.

There are far worse conditions in a lot of places, but its kept quiet because theyre not a good headline for the unions.

BoatMad

Eric Cartman wrote: »

+1 , I would imagine a lot of it has to do with UNITE coming in, putting diamonds in their eyes and pretending a union can get them all 15-30 hours a week, 11-12 quid an hour, never work weekends and a new puppy for christmas.

There are far worse conditions in a lot of places, but its kept quiet because theyre not a good headline for the unions.

when the union tried to come into my business, I joined it , funny, when my kids wanted piercings, my wife got one instead. funny nobody wanted to be in the union, and none of my kids got a piercing !!!!

union went away them

Full Marx

Only a fool would not join a union - they are the reason we enjoy what rights we have as workers. They also offer invaluable expertise and assistance if you find yourself in any kind of dispute with your employers.

I fully support the Dunnes workers and will be sure to drop down on Holy Thursday to offer those on the picket line some encouragement. It's an intolerable situation where you might be working a 30 odd hour week every week for years but only have a 15 (or less) hour contract. This means you have little in the way of job security and cannot make any long term plans or purchases. It's unfair.

BoatMad

Full Marx wrote: »

Only a fool would not join a union - they are the reason we enjoy what rights we have as workers. They also offer invaluable expertise and assistance if you find yourself in any kind of dispute with your employers.

given the majority of workers are not in a union in ireland, you're calling a lot of people fools, boy.

unions have equally caused the destruction of jobs too,

Eric Cartman

Full Marx wrote: »

Only a fool would not join a union - they are the reason we enjoy what rights we have as workers. They also offer invaluable expertise and assistance if you find yourself in any kind of dispute with your employers.

Well I guess most workers are fools then :rolleyes: why is it that only people in low paid, low skilled jobs with a high staff turnover, public servants or a dying industry are in unions. Very few professionals or people in management seem to have anything to worry about bothered.

I fully support the Dunnes workers and will be sure to drop down on Holy Thursday to offer those on the picket line some encouragement. It's an intolerable situation where you might be working a 30 odd hour week every week for years but only have a 15 (or less) hour contract. This means you have little in the way of job security and cannot make any long term plans or purchases. It's unfair.

this is akin to people banking on a bonus / overtime to pay the mortgage and look where that got us.

Full Marx

BoatMad wrote: »

given the majority of workers are not in a union in ireland, you're calling a lot of people fools, boy.

unions have equally caused the destruction of jobs too,

Boy? Something tells me I shouldn't waste my time engaging with you.

My opinion is that everyone should join a union - obviously this can be tougher in workplaces which have a union hostile management (like Ryanair) but even so there are numerous benefits. Most of the rights we enjoy as workers were hard won by the Trade Union movement - why you would not want to be able to avail of the strength and resources of a trade union is beyond me.

Unless of course you are one of those who resents giving a fair wage and terms and conditions to employees.

Guffy

Would it not make more sense to look at the employers prsi. The higher rate for people earning 359 is clearly the cause of this.

But then again you would be putting people out of work, even if it is 15 hours.

BoatMad

Full Marx wrote: »

Boy? Something tells me I shouldn't waste my time engaging with you.

My opinion is that everyone should join a union - obviously this can be tougher in workplaces which have a union hostile management (like Ryanair) but even so there are numerous benefits. Most of the rights we enjoy as workers were hard won by the Trade Union movement - why you would not want to be able to avail of the straight and resources of a trade union is beyond me.

Unless of course you are one of those who resents giving a fair wage and terms and conditions to employees.

Theres no such thing as a "fair wage" , there is a " minimum wage ", after that labour " value" is a commodity and what you are paid is the market value of what you do. whether you can live on that wage is as much a function of the economy and taxation etc as it id the notional wage

The vast majority of Irish private sector workers choose not to join Unions, even though they are free to do so. If you speak to workers in Pharma, Hi-tech,etc, they see little point in doing so, The same is true for many workers in Ryanair, they know they are better paid then elsewhere.

The trade union in reality made very few changes to the law, that wouldn't have happened anyway . Today the EU is more of a factor then Unions

Ultimately unions cant get you anything, because in todays ultra-mobile capital and overseas outsourcing, there is always some other group that will make it instead of you. All that happens is industry closes and goes out of business. Workers have their pride and no job, !.

Did the unions get the Glass workers their pension, no the ECJ did.

Im not anti union, but your view is from the 20s

BoatMad

I fully support the Dunnes workers and will be sure to drop down on Holy Thursday to offer those on the picket line some encouragement. It's an intolerable situation where you might be working a 30 odd hour week every week for years but only have a 15 (or less) hour contract. This means you have little in the way of job security and cannot make any long term plans or purchases. It's unfair.

what job security does anyone have these days outside the public service, irrespective of the contract they are on.

whats job security daddy. " son its something only government people have, now go back to your cornflakes"

end of the road

BoatMad wrote: »

The trade union in reality made very few changes to the law, that wouldn't have happened anyway

untrue. there is nothing to say those laws would have happened, or even would have happened near the time they did. the fact is the unions at least brought those changes quicker, and we have a lot to be greatful to them for.

BoatMad wrote: »

Today the EU is more of a factor then Unions

the EU helps a lot of course, but the unions enforce it where they exist.

BoatMad wrote: »

Ultimately unions cant get you anything, because in todays ultra-mobile capital and overseas outsourcing, there is always some other group that will make it instead of you.

they do get a lot. no doubt there are those "do it on the cheep" lot who wouldn't know the meaning of workers rights and who will be used by businesses who would rather bury their heads in the sand then listen to the employees greevences, but if a business threatens to use them rather then listen to staff greevences, then the staff always have the option of putting the business out of business.

BoatMad wrote: »

All that happens is industry closes and goes out of business.

yes, those who don't know the meaning of workers rights, others do engage and a compromise that meets the needs of all is met.

BoatMad wrote: »

Workers have their pride and no job, !.

well sometimes pride and no job is the better option. better it then be treated like rubbish.

BoatMad wrote: »

Did the unions get the Glass workers their pension, no the ECJ did.

maybe the ECJ had more actual powers to do something rather then the union?

BoatMad wrote: »

Im not anti union, but your view is from the 20s

its not, its very much from the present unfortunately.

fly_agaric

Well, one thing unions do provide is the dissenting/contrary voice at times.
Every day we hear so much about what companies and businesses (Ireland Inc) "need" through their lobbyists and the media echo chamber;

It always boils down to getting a free ride off the rest of the society (the state) of which they are supposedly a part:

• to pay as low wages as possible (it is the state's job to make up difference if the low wage is not a living wage)
• to pay as little tax as possible and use every avoidance scheme going if you can afford to pay for the smart accountants and lawyers to set them up (its not illegal you know; its our right to avoid tax!)
• to have the government through the colleges and universities pay for training of their employees (why should we have to pay to train anyone - there'll be less profit, let the state do it)
• to have the government bring in sundry "incentives" (grants, tax rebates, privatisations of public services, intern schemes with govt. funded employees etc) (the state's job is also to tilt the table and defray some risk so we can make more "wealth" to pay to shareholders and managers while avoiding any other taxes we can!)

mcko

I am a member of SIPTU for the last 25 years and work in the private sector, the only thing worse than working in a unionised work place is working in a non union work place, we all give out about our union but without them we would be a lot worse off, over that last few years the company have tried to cut back on pay and conditions but were not as successful as if they had no union to deal with.
A couple of years ago the lab techs got the right to join the union if they wanted and guess what 100% did, not because they were socialist workers, but they saw the value of a trade union in looking after them.
Good employers have nothing to fear from unions. I was at a meeting with our manager last year and he was moaning about the cost of over time and how it could impact the plants future, he was told
1. Don't take on work that we can't afford to do.
2. Take on people to do the work.
3. If the plant is not viable if they pay over time then close the plant now and give us our redundancy cheques.
He left with his tail between his legs, what did he think we would all tremble and agree with him, at times you have to say no or where will cuts end.

Sheldons Brain

Deleted User wrote: »

Retail is fickle. Sure you see certain people come in on the same day every week but by and large people shop around a hell of a lot more these days. You can't depend on people's business every week anymore.

Individuals may be fickle, but the aggregate flows in supermarkets are relatively stable and the point of sale systems provide a lot of data to analyse.

Some flexibility is needed, but my point is that there is a balance and that balance might give significantly more predictable schedules to staff while not making a material difference to the employer.

razzler

One of the biggest issues staff have is when their hours are are cut back and new staff are hired, on minimum wage and full hours. Of course it's to save money on wages but it's morally wrong. A yrar and a half ago approx. when Dunnes wasn't being challenged, the staff on the flexi contracts (15 hours) were having their hours cut back to 15 to 20 a week. Meanwhile the place was awash with new hires on full hours but minimum wage. Lots of staff complained using the "open door" policy that management claim to have but were told that's the way it is, can't be changed. That's why the union is necessary. To add insult to injury, the staff are given the job of training the new hires who will be taking their hours. Dunnes gave the pay increase readily enough because they could offset it by a cut in hours. For the busiest retail week of the year, Christmas, I had 12 hrs and last year 16 hours. Striking is a last resort but now necessary and thankfully there is a union there to organise things.

BOHtox

razzler wrote: »

One of the biggest issues staff have is when their hours are are cut back and new staff are hired, on minimum wage and full hours. Of course it's to save money on wages but it's morally wrong. A yrar and a half ago approx. when Dunnes wasn't being challenged, the staff on the flexi contracts (15 hours) were having their hours cut back to 15 to 20 a week. Meanwhile the place was awash with new hires on full hours but minimum wage. Lots of staff complained using the "open door" policy that management claim to have but were told that's the way it is, can't be changed. That's why the union is necessary. To add insult to injury, the staff are given the job of training the new hires who will be taking their hours. Dunnes gave the pay increase readily enough because they could offset it by a cut in hours. For the busiest retail week of the year, Christmas, I had 12 hrs and last year 16 hours. Striking is a last resort but now necessary and thankfully there is a union there to organise things.

Dunnes don't hire anyone on minimum wage. The starting wage for a regular till or floor staff is something like €9.68 and the yearly increments are negligible. Dunnes also do their rosters based on "hours" as opposed to a financial budget i.e. They have may 1000 hours to give and not €1000 euro.
Seeing as there's no financial aspect in cutting back hours of old staff when new are hired, it's purely to get them trained in. Staff who work there full time who rely on Dunnes as their career would rarely see their hours cut. It would be the part time staff who were working stretched hours.

When I was in Dunnes I was given 2 or 3 unscheduled pay increases, add on to that the scheduled ones, and I was able to talk to managers about my availability etc. The current union involvement in completely unnecessary.

razzler

Of coure there is a financial aspect to cutting back hours. Yes, rosters are done by "hours". But reducing hours reduces the wage bill. Or, as Dunnes prefer to do, take hours from higher paid staff and give them to new staff. When the new staff are trained in we see our hours reduced by 1 or 2 days worth of hours per week. This makes a saving of a few euro per hour for the wage budget. We are very aware that staff wages are just another overhead that they want to keep to a minimum. And new staff are hired on min wage, I've asked them. Your manager adjusting your rosters to suit your availability depends on how they feel about you. Those they are more friendly with will be accommodated more often, so staff are not treated equally. A union is very necessary.

end of the road

BOHtox wrote: »

Dunnes don't hire anyone on minimum wage. The starting wage for a regular till or floor staff is something like €9.68 and the yearly increments are negligible. Dunnes also do their rosters based on "hours" as opposed to a financial budget i.e. They have may 1000 hours to give and not €1000 euro.
Seeing as there's no financial aspect in cutting back hours of old staff when new are hired, it's purely to get them trained in. Staff who work there full time who rely on Dunnes as their career would rarely see their hours cut. It would be the part time staff who were working stretched hours.

When I was in Dunnes I was given 2 or 3 unscheduled pay increases, add on to that the scheduled ones, and I was able to talk to managers about my availability etc. The current union involvement in completely unnecessary.

the staff having problems say it is necessary, so therefore the strikes and the union involvement are necessary

BOHtox

razzler wrote: »

Of coure there is a financial aspect to cutting back hours. Yes, rosters are done by "hours". But reducing hours reduces the wage bill. Or, as Dunnes prefer to do, take hours from higher paid staff and give them to new staff. When the new staff are trained in we see our hours reduced by 1 or 2 days worth of hours per week. This makes a saving of a few euro per hour for the wage budget. We are very aware that staff wages are just another overhead that they want to keep to a minimum. And new staff are hired on min wage, I've asked them. Your manager adjusting your rosters to suit your availability depends on how they feel about you. Those they are more friendly with will be accommodated more often, so staff are not treated equally. A union is very necessary.

All of that post is factually incorrect. People starting on minimum wage is complete misinformation. The starting rate is €9.68.

Those working there full time are rarely cut back. And even if they did save "a few euro" it wouldn't even compensate for the fact that the new workers aren't as productive as the staff who were there way longer yet earn marginally more.

Managers change roster availability down to the individual needs of the worker. If a worker cannot work certain hours and said worker is restored in those hours and doesn't go to work when restored in the hours he/she cannot do, it is in everyone's best interest if the roster is changed to reflect that.

The people going on strike are on higher rates than they were when they started. Two unscheduled pay increases have happened in the past two years and employment levels has remained the same. At the same time as the retail sector is on its knees and other companies are reducing pay and employment levels, Dunnes have increased pay twice and kept employment levels constant.

nice_guy80

After working in a business for years on end, you would expect security of work hours, pay increases in terms of experience and responsibility and some sort of job security in the form of a proper contract

in any business, whether that be a supermarket, chip shop, builder, council worker, teacher, nurse whatever.

razzler

Repy to BOHtox post
So staff are going on strike for completely fictional reasons and I who have been there a number of years is either lying or hallucinating? The staff who have guaranteed full hours and can't be cut back are very few. Those contracts are very old and for years now its only flexi (15 hr minimum) being offered. Of course new staff are not as used to the job as existing staff but it doesn't stop Dunnes seeing it as more preferable to reduce the wage cost. And never ever have me or any of my co-workers been able to tell managers when we're available and they roster us to suit that. We'd be told to get real and take a hike. It's the other way around. The roster for the next week goes on the notice board on a Tuesday/Wednesday and that's what we have to work. Varies wildly, could be an 8am-12am or 3pm-10:30pm. That's what flexi was designed for. But a student starting can make it known at the initial interview what time they need off for college and a roster can be worked out to suit their needs (but they often still have problems later, another manager may not honor the inital agreement) but it doesn't happen for regular staff. If a staff has an appointment and it's too late to give the required 4weeks notice to request a day off then they could try to swap shift with another staff but its difficult to do, other person's contract has to match, hours have to be the same, same dapartment and doing same job and willing to swap. And then manager might not agree to it. Situation you describe where we can tell our managers what hours we would like to work and what times would suit us and they will do their very best to please us sounds like Dunnes Dreamland.

TallGlass

I have worked in Tesco until I changed jobs recently. Seen some of the comments here and what the management have said to these workers I feel like joining the picket line.

Don't comment on working in retail unless you have. It's an awfully unfair job for which ever company you work for. Asking for some fairness and stability in your job, this is not a new thing with Dunnes or any retailer. They all treat you like dirt, with so called 'managers' that couldn't manage a piss up in brewery.

In Tesco if you work more than 3 months above/on a certain band then you are moved to that band and are contracted to them hours. I started on 20/25 hours then managed to break into the 30/35 hours band. Always been at the bottom of your band.

Dunnes are covering themselves, there will be job losses from this. I know it, if Dunnes give in people will lose there jobs.

razzler

That's what the union is trying to achieve for us, banded hours contracts with a minium of 25 hours guaranteed. .

bladebrew

I used to work in Dunnes, the store I was in had 4 staff on full time (37.5hour) so the entire grocery section had 4 people guaranteed those hours, everyone else was on flexi,
One week the person in the same section as me went on holidays so I got 37.5 the next week was about 22, so your money is almost halved, nobody could live long term on that, I left for a guaranteed 40 hours plus overtime back when times were better,
People don't really get it until you work in retail it's over a 7 day roster, and I have worked until midnight or started at 8am, so it's difficult to plan anything a week in advance, you do get 5 days every week so you cannot claim anything from social welfare,
There would have to be less staff that is true, but it's easy for Dunnes to Give the staff more stability,

Edit: Dunnes have a history of being very difficult to deal with, they put Whelans transport out of business, and had a dispute with Tayto which resulted in half the crisp section being empty and me being asked every 2 minutes where are all the Tayto!

nice_guy80

bladebrew wrote: »

I used to work in Dunnes, the store I was in had 4 staff on full time (37.5hour) so the entire grocery section had 4 people guaranteed those hours, everyone else was on flexi,
One week the person in the same section as me went on holidays so I got 37.5 the next week was about 22, so your money is almost halved, nobody could live long term on that, I left for a guaranteed 40 hours plus overtime back when times were better,
People don't really get it until you work in retail it's over a 7 day roster, and I have worked until midnight or started at 8am, so it's difficult to plan anything a week in advance, you do get 5 days every week so you cannot claim anything from social welfare,
There would have to be less staff that is true, but it's easy for Dunnes to Give the staff more stability,

Edit: Dunnes have a history of being very difficult to deal with, they put Whelans transport out of business, and had a dispute with Tayto which resulted in half the crisp section being empty and me being asked every 2 minutes where are all the Tayto!

no shareholders either, so they can do what they like and senior management are answerable to nobody

SimonLynch

Till jockeys? Nice. Half the shops I go into it's only because of the excellent cashiers.

Eric Cartman

razzler wrote: »

That's what the union is trying to achieve for us, banded hours contracts with a minium of 25 hours guaranteed. .

please explain to all of the staff there less than a year that they will be losing their jobs if dunnes give in to that. agreeing a minimum of 25 hours for all of you will cause job losses.

Guffy

I get what your saying Eric, but I remember the frustration I felt when I worked in Dunnes. Why are they hiring 5 new people when they are only giving us 17/18 hours? Odds are most of those people will be let go anyway so as to avoid the whole permanency thing.

efb

Divide and conquer Eric - the old cheap management tactic

Eric Cartman

gufc21 wrote: »

I get what your saying Eric, but I remember the frustration I felt when I worked in Dunnes. Why are they hiring 5 new people when they are only giving us 17/18 hours? Odds are most of those people will be let go anyway so as to avoid the whole permanency thing.

its good PR - dunnes has created x amount of irish jobs

diversification - if you can get 3 people for 15 hours for the same money as 1 person for 45 hours a week then of course you'll pick more people especially in unskilled / low skilled labour (I am not mocking the hard work dunnes employees do with this comment, but at the end of the day its very repetitive unskilled work that somebody can be trained to do very quickly)

reliability - If you have a pool of 50 people to call on to fill hours you've a higher chance than with 20, lets say theres a surge of customers on a sunday morning , when you call and ask people to go in, a lot of them are going to be hungover in bed and say no. if you have a pool of 50 chances are 5 will say yes , whereas in 20 you'd get perhaps 1-2 and you'd still be understaffed.

growth - new stores need new managers and staff , having a big pool of ready and waiting trained staff , and longer term staff suitable for management creates an environment where it's easy to expand your business very quickly .

Tugboats

@Eric Cartman is there a reason why you have over 25 posts in the thread as you don't seem to work in Dunnes from what ive read?

I only heard about the strike today and popped in here to see what the story was. As it doesn't directly involve me I don't think i could dedicate over 25posts to the thread