Dunnes workers to strike

end of the road

Greyian wrote: »

And why is that? Should everyone just support people who are on strike, regardless of their working conditions and salaries? If Dunnes workers were working 30 hour a week contracts, at €50 an hour, and the union decided to strike because they wanted €100/hour, should any/all staff members at Dunnes who are happy with their €50/hour refuse to work in support of those on strike, or are they entitled to be of the opinion that the people on strike are delusional and continue working as normal?

If you don't support what people are on strike for, you are under no obligation whatsoever to respect their picket line (in terms of not crossing it, obviously you can't start abusing them or anything like that).

its your duty not to cross a picket line. find an alternative entrance, turn up and be at the door before the picket is set up, whatever. just do not cross a picket.

johnnyskeleton

end of the road wrote: »

its your duty not to cross a picket line. find an alternative entrance, turn up and be at the door before the picket is set up, whatever. just do not cross a picket.

Again, is this only worker's/Union pickets? I mean, there are frequent pickets outside Leinster House / the Four Courts about everything from Water Charges to how the Lizard People have ruined democracy.

What if the picket was not about workers rights but was about a political issue e.g. Apartheid. If you don't care about politics and just want to buy some bread and Jam is it ok to cross the picket line?

What if the picketers were pro-Apartheid and were protesting the sale of goods from non-white owned South African companies?

Surely if you agree with the principle behind the picket, you should let this be known by not crossing and then Dunnes (in the present example) can say "hold on, business is down X% we'd better bow to public pressure" instead of a sort of automatic response of "people are protesting so therefore I will not cross their picket line"?

Brendan Bendar

end of the road wrote: »

its your duty not to cross a picket line. find an alternative entrance, turn up and be at the door before the picket is set up, whatever. just do not cross a picket.

Says who, I'll either cross or not cross any picket line I like mate .

I will decide.

Greyian

end of the road wrote: »

its your duty not to cross a picket line.

Is that enshrined in our constitution? Is there some legislation regarding crossing picket lines?

tomwaterford

Greyian wrote: »

Is that enshrined in our constitution? Is there some legislation regarding crossing picket lines?

No...but badly off would you want to be if you couldn't find a shop nearby with same goods etc as those on strike

Being honest I know people who don't talk to some of there neighbours for crossing s picket line 30 odd years ago!!

johnnyskeleton

tomwaterford wrote: »

No...but badly off would you want to be if you couldn't find a shop nearby with same goods etc as those on strike

Being honest I know people who don't talk to some of there neighbours for crossing s picket line 30 odd years ago!!

I have a fair bit of sympathy for the zero hours workers so I havent shopped in Dunnes recently. But surely it demeans the reasonable pickets if we are to treat all pickets as sacrosanct. If Consultants were picketing outside the hospitals because they wanted more money, for example, would you refuse to enter the hospital?

Guffy

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I have a fair bit of sympathy for the zero hours workers so I havent shopped in Dunnes recently. But surely it demeans the reasonable pickets if we are to treat all pickets as sacrosanct. If Consultants were picketing outside the hospitals because they wanted more money, for example, would you refuse to enter the hospital?

There are no zero hour workers in Dunnes AFAIK

johnnyskeleton

gufc21 wrote: »

There are no zero hour workers in Dunnes AFAIK

Ok, lack of fixed/full hours contracts

efb

gufc21 wrote: »

There are no zero hour workers in Dunnes AFAIK

As defined in irish employment law- yes there are

jank

tomwaterford wrote: »

What's that to do with anything.....no one anywhere should cross a picket line

Why? Genuine question. This is a free country and if one wants to cross a picket and do a days work that is their constitutional right. Its that simple.

Guffy

efb wrote: »

As defined in irish employment law- yes there are

How are 15 hour contracts = zero hour contracts?

efb

gufc21 wrote: »

How are 15 hour contracts = zero hour contracts?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/contracts_without_specific_working_hours_zero_hours_contracts.html

Rightwing

I don't believe in unions, but if any workers need them, it's probably Dunnes.

The likes of the teaching unions give them all a bad name with rubbish like '30% of teachers are living in poverty'.

harpsman

not yet wrote: »

Never ceases to amaze me the right wing, Thatcherite mentality some Irish people have..

What Thatcheritle mentality? Tell me what were Thatchers opinions on zero hour or flexibhour contracts?

Personally I think the workers have a genuine grievance. And im a thatcherite (its not an insult to people who know what theyre talking about).

jank

harpsman wrote: »

What Thatcheritle mentality? Tell me what were Thatchers opinions on zero hour or flexibhour contracts?

Personally I think the workers have a genuine grievance. And im a thatcherite (its not an insult to people who know what theyre talking about).

From my experience, the word thatcherite is used as a playground name calling tactic. Well its a lot easier to throw insults rather than engage in a debate.

the groutch

tomwaterford wrote: »

What's that to do with anything.....no one anywhere should cross a picket line

so your saying that all the staff who had no legal protection via union members should have all not shown up for work, and risk being sacked the next day?

PopePalpatine

Mandate have claimed that their members are now being punished by Dunnes' management, according to this RTE article.

Rightwing

Dunnes is for penny pinchers looking for bargains and all they get is inferior produce. Heatons, penneys etc similar. Workers in these stores need to quickly upskill and move with the times (knowledge economy).

Full Marx

Strikers now being sacked, hours cut and shifts changed. Dunnes management are horrendous. Rapid escalation and intervention from politicians needed now.

Shame on Dunnes.

Eric Cartman

Full Marx wrote: »

Strikers now being sacked, hours cut and shifts changed. Dunnes management are horrendous. Rapid escalation and intervention from politicians needed now.

Shame on Dunnes.

No, government has no place interfering in a private companies labour dispute.

Full Marx

Eric Cartman wrote: »

No, government has no place interfering in a private companies labour dispute.

They have a role in protecting people from ill treatment from businesses. Not that I expect you to understand this, I'm sure you are too busy pleasing yourself at the thoughts of workers suffering for having had the gall to strike.

Eric Cartman

Full Marx wrote: »

They have a role in protecting people from ill treatment from businesses. Not that I expect you to understand this, I'm sure you are too busy pleasing yourself at the thoughts of workers suffering for having had the gall to strike.

you go on like dunnes is a turkish prison or something, and that businesses are just a boogeyman hiding in the closet waiting to oppress everyone. In the land of free money welfare giveaways for all, why would anyone continue to work for a company that 'oppresses' them so badly.

Full Marx

Full Marx wrote: »

They have a role in protecting people from ill treatment from businesses. Not that I expect you to understand this, I'm sure you are too busy pleasing yourself at the thoughts of workers suffering for having had the gall to strike.

Whether we like it or not, the workers DID agree to those hours when they started working there. It doesn't excuse the way they are being treated, though. Talking of bycotting Dunnes won't help their cause, if they end up out of work altogether due to lack of customers. Dunnes don't want long term employees, because the longer they are there, the higher their wages, so they make it VERY difficult, within the Law, for workers to stay there.

end of the road

Eric Cartman wrote: »

No, government has no place interfering in a private companies labour dispute.

in this case, they do. dunnes lost all their rights years ago as far as i'm concerned.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

you go on like dunnes is a turkish prison or something, and that businesses are just a boogeyman hiding in the closet waiting to oppress everyone.

well, by the sounds of it dunnes isn't far off. yes unfortunately some businesses are looking for ways and excuses to abuse workers. nobody said it was all businesses.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

why would anyone continue to work for a company that 'oppresses' them so badly.

no other option.

Deleted User wrote: »

Whether we like it or not, the workers DID agree to those hours when they started working there.

no, they hadn't any option. anyone who would sign for that clearly has nothing else. they were right, and now its time to change those hours and implement fixed contracts.

Deleted User wrote: »

Talking of bycotting Dunnes won't help their cause, if they end up out of work altogether due to lack of customers.

well, so be it. dunnes would deserve to go out of business, only that the staff are innocent in the whole thing

Eric Cartman

end of the road wrote: »

in this case, they do. dunnes lost all their rights years ago as far as i'm concerned.


well, by the sounds of it dunnes isn't far off. yes unfortunately some businesses are looking for ways and excuses to abuse workers. nobody said it was all businesses.

thank christ you hold no power on the decision then, you actually believe in the removal of rights for an entity that disagrees with you.

dunnes isn't far off a turkish prison, how would anyone even drag themselves out of bed to work in dunnes if it was like that. As a matter of interest, where do you work ?

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

in this case, they do. dunnes lost all their rights years ago as far as i'm concerned.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

you go on like dunnes is a turkish prison or something, and that businesses are just a boogeyman hiding in the closet waiting to oppress everyone.

well, by the sounds of it dunnes isn't far off. yes unfortunately some businesses are looking for ways and excuses to abuse workers. nobody said it was all businesses.

no other option.

no, they hadn't any option. anyone who would sign for that clearly has nothing else. they were right, and now its time to change those hours and implement fixed contracts.

well, so be it. dunnes would deserve to go out of business, only that the staff are innocent in the whole thing

You not liking something, doesn't make one jot of difference.

There IS an option. Leave and go on the Dole if needs be. There are a number of workers who are happy with their hours. Those who happen to have stuck it out long term are doing nicely on 15 hours a week!
They are NOT the only company who have this deal. Many other in the retail trade have similar.

tomwaterford

Eric Cartman wrote: »

thank christ you hold no power on the decision then, you actually believe in the removal of rights for an entity that disagrees with you.

dunnes isn't far off a turkish prison, how would anyone even drag themselves out of bed to work in dunnes if it was like that. As a matter of interest, where do you work ?

I don't see what where the poster works had to do with anything


Dunnes are by a long long way known to be the worst employers in the state for the way they treat their employees....there management training is abysmal

Eric Cartman

tomwaterford wrote: »

I don't see what where the poster works had to do with anything


Dunnes are by a long long way known to be the worst employers in the state for the way they treat their employees....there management training is abysmal

if they think being in dunnes is similar to a turkish prison, I want to know what they think of their employment and if they rate it highly id like to go work for that place, considering 15 hours a week is turkish prison territory.


Also just as a side note hopefully unrelated to the above poster, I have a feeling that there are some people commenting on how 'awful' dunnes are in this thread who have never held a job in their lives, if you have less than 1 year of cumulative tax paying employment , please let us know as you are in no position to talk about working conditions and whats fair.

Rightwing

That's true, they do have the choice to leave. I don't know anything about their contracts, but it is undesirable from a societal point for businesses to squeeze those at the bottom, because they'd probably be better off on the welfare.

The margins in the retail are rather poor though, hence even retailers like Tesco's debt is downgraded.

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

end of the road wrote: »

in this case, they do. dunnes lost all their rights years ago as far as i'm concerned.



You not liking something, doesn't make one jot of difference.

There IS an option. Leave and go on the Dole if needs be. There are a number of workers who are happy with their hours. Those who happen to have stuck it out long term are doing nicely on 15 hours a week!
They are NOT the only company who have this deal. Many other in the retail trade have similar.

no, there isn't an option if you want to work. i don't care if there are workers who are happy with their hours as thats their perogative. others however aren't, so have the right to try change their lot. they were right to go as far as they needed to, and if the company has retaliated or is retaliating by sacking those staff in revenge, those staff should do what is necessary to disrupt the companies business if needs be. picketing stores, stopping deliveries, whatever they need to do they will be right until dunnes changes its ways. nobody is doing nicely on 15 hours a week unless they actually suit them (as in they are a student and can only work 15 hours due to college) . other then that time for fixed hours. the fact many others have similar means nothing and is just simple excuse making and whataboutery.

Eric Cartman

end of the road wrote: »

no, there isn't an option if you want to work. i don't care if there are workers who are happy with their hours as thats their perogative. others however aren't, so have the right to try change their lot. they were right to go as far as they needed to, and if the company has retaliated or is retaliating by sacking those staff in revenge, those staff should do what is necessary to disrupt the companies business if needs be. picketing stores, stopping deliveries, whatever they need to do they will be right until dunnes changes its ways. nobody is doing nicely on 15 hours a week unless they actually suit them (as in they are a student and can only work 15 hours due to college) . other then that time for fixed hours. the fact many others have similar means nothing and is just simple excuse making and whataboutery.

if only some people are unhappy then perhaps they are the ones with the issue, not dunnes.

if I don't like eating a food I just won't eat it again, what you suggest is I should picket the chef until he changes the recipe.

tomwaterford

Eric Cartman wrote: »

if they think being in dunnes is similar to a turkish prison, I want to know what they think of their employment and if they rate it highly id like to go work for that place, considering 15 hours a week is turkish prison territory.


Also just as a side note hopefully unrelated to the above poster, I have a feeling that there are some people commenting on how 'awful' dunnes are in this thread who have never held a job in their lives, if you have less than 1 year of cumulative tax paying employment , please let us know as you are in no position to talk about working conditions and whats fair.

You can rest assured kid...I've a lot more than one years work :rolleyes:

I know of some many who've worked in various dunnes around the country and its the same all over....being honest it's something dunnes would want to address is its inhouse management training and staff relations as the behaviour and way the management treat it's staff is about 200 years out of date

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

no, there isn't an option if you want to work. i don't care if there are workers who are happy with their hours as thats their perogative. others however aren't, so have the right to try change their lot. they were right to go as far as they needed to, and if the company has retaliated or is retaliating by sacking those staff in revenge, those staff should do what is necessary to disrupt the companies business if needs be. picketing stores, stopping deliveries, whatever they need to do they will be right until dunnes changes its ways. nobody is doing nicely on 15 hours a week unless they actually suit them (as in they are a student and can only work 15 hours due to college) . other then that time for fixed hours. the fact many others have similar means nothing and is just simple excuse making and whataboutery.

I fail to see your reasoning. Yes, not ALL the staff are unhappy. But how will ruining the business help the rest?

Eric Cartman

tomwaterford wrote: »

You can rest assured kid...I've a lot more than one years work :rolleyes:

I know of some many who've worked in various dunnes around the country and its the same all over....being honest it's something dunnes would want to address is its inhouse management training and staff relations as the behaviour and way the management treat it's staff is about 200 years out of date

that comment was more addressed to end of the road or full marx , while we may disagree you are a lot more moderate than they are.

tomwaterford

Eric Cartman wrote: »

if only some people are unhappy then perhaps they are the ones with the issue, not dunnes.

if I don't like eating a food I just won't eat it again, what you suggest is I should picket the chef until he changes the recipe.

The issue is dunnes overuse and abuse of these contracts...
To stand over and agree with them is a bit backward...trying to say it's the workers fault that dunnes are abusing the system??

Full Marx

Whether someone works or nor, and where they work if so, is irrelevant to the discussion.

ballyharpat

Management at dunes are terrible, but so are the staff, in my local Dunnes stores, I think they are all in slow motion. I have given up asking the staff in there anything, they are each as bad as the other. I was looking for an item the same as one I had purchased earlier in the day, I asked one staff member, she said she'd be back in a minute after asking someone…..cue 5 minutes later, no sign…..I see her at another checkout, I approach her, she says, ask the other guy-guy at other end of counter…I go to him, he says he can't help me without item number, doesn't even wait for description of what I'm looking for!! I see a manager, I go to him, was about to ask about the item, and maybe complain about the lack of customer care, when I see that he is signing to another member of staff about where to put a sign….at that, I just throw my hands up and leave…..
the staff suck, the pay should suck…...

Paulzx

ballyharpat wrote: »

..
the staff suck, the pay should suck…...

You can also turn that the other way around.

I don't understand why a large company that depends on interaction with the public to create sales and make profit seems to go out of it's way to demoralise and piss off large portions of it's staff.

An 18 year old in college in the first week of a Business management degree could tell you the importance of having a satisfied and happy workforce. The public face of the company is represented by it's workforce. They're hardly going to be productive and efficient when they are in constant conflict with management. Especially when a lot of this conflict seems to be caused by incompetant local level managers and petty disputes.

I don't understand how a constant turnover of cheap staff is actually good business long term for Dunnes. After the dissatisfied short term staff have left the customer still remembers any negative dealings they have with them. I'm not saying that all part timers are bad or all permananet full hours staff are good but it just seems to me to be bad for business to have your company image projected as constantly negative

ballyharpat

Paulzx wrote: »

You can also turn that the other way around.

I don't understand why a large company that depends on interaction with the public to create sales and make profit seems to go out of it's way to demoralise and piss off large portions of it's staff.

An 18 year old in college in the first week of a Business management degree could tell you the importance of having a satisfied and happy workforce. The public face of the company is represented by it's workforce. They're hardly going to be productive and efficient when they are in constant conflict with management. Especially when a lot of this conflict seems to be caused by incompetant local level managers and petty disputes.

I don't understand how a constant turnover of cheap staff is actually good business long term for Dunnes. After the dissatisfied short term staff have left the customer still remembers any negative dealings they have with them. I'm not saying that all part timers are bad or all permananet full hours staff are good but it just seems to me to be bad for business to have your company image projected as constantly negative

I agree,it seems to be the way that large companies operate these days, and some of these 'large' companies, may only be employing 20+ staff, but they can depersonalize them and keep bodies on the payroll, regardless of skill set or experience…..

PopePalpatine

Paulzx wrote: »

You can also turn that the other way around.

I don't understand why a large company that depends on interaction with the public to create sales and make profit seems to go out of it's way to demoralise and piss off large portions of it's staff.

An 18 year old in college in the first week of a Business management degree could tell you the importance of having a satisfied and happy workforce. The public face of the company is represented by it's workforce. They're hardly going to be productive and efficient when they are in constant conflict with management. Especially when a lot of this conflict seems to be caused by incompetant local level managers and petty disputes.

I don't understand how a constant turnover of cheap staff is actually good business long term for Dunnes. After the dissatisfied short term staff have left the customer still remembers any negative dealings they have with them. I'm not saying that all part timers are bad or all permananet full hours staff are good but it just seems to me to be bad for business to have your company image projected as constantly negative

I did business studies for the Junior Cert, and even then the course emphasised keeping employees happy.

cerastes

Eric Cartman wrote: »

you go on like dunnes is a turkish prison or something, and that businesses are just a boogeyman hiding in the closet waiting to oppress everyone. In the land of free money welfare giveaways for all, why would anyone continue to work for a company that 'oppresses' them so badly.

Why? because they have to, or because they at least want to work or they want more opportunity than the dole, posters like you would be on giving out about people not taking basic level jobs over the dole, yet these people are working and there are some that are still not happy if they work, they also need to be treated badly, whatever of the hours in the contracts, keeping people on permanantly on short time hours or contracts is simply to benefit the employer, on top of that Dunnes record with employees isnt the best.
Ive stopped shopping in Dunnes in the last while, Ive maintained boycotts of other organisations for poor customer service, one person might not be enough, but maybe if more customers voiced their opinions on Dunnes practices with their employees then they might at least become concerned about changing their ways.

jank

I worked in Dunnes for years when I was young and in College. It was not that bad a place to work from memory. Certainly was not the worst job I ever had. You were expected to put in a shift and the part timers that did not were usually let go. Saying that if one is working in Dunnes on a full time capacity stocking shelves and the like with no further ambition to do go into management or go into education, then I would wager that would have more to do with Job Satisfaction then anything else. Dunnes employ you on a contact with a min of 15 hours, that is all you are legally entitled to. If one is not happy with their job, then no one is forcing you to stay. If you think you cannot get another job, then that is your problem not Dunnes or someone else.

Dunnes may be acting up, but this seems to be a power grab by the unions in order to legislate for collective bargaining, which would be the worst thing to happen!

PopePalpatine

Ah, God (and Rand) be with the days where you could put unruly workers on a blacklist for daring to stand up for themselves.

jank

jank wrote: »

Dunnes employ you on a contact with a min of 15 hours, that is all you are legally entitled to.

Who even disputes this?

If nobody disputes this, why does it keep reappearing in the discussion? It's like trying to debate unpaid internships with someone who thinks "but it's not illegal" is a valid argument in a debate about whether it should be illegal.

This kind of argument is a peculiarly unthinking, passive approach to political debate.

I quite well understand the need for flexible contracts in agriculture and the hospitality business, where there are huge seasonal variations in labour demands. But is anyone dumb enough to believe that an established groceries retailer has no idea whether it will need workers for 15 hours or 35 hours in a given week? That is incredibly naive.

Even if it were somehow true, a stable groceries business that is so incapable of predicting workers' hours would have to be grossly incompetent. Nobody is that stupid.

jank

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Ah, God (and Rand) be with the days where you could put unruly workers on a blacklist for daring to stand up for themselves.

Nothing to do with what I said.

jank

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Who even disputes this?

If nobody disputes this, why does it keep reappearing in the discussion? It's like trying to debate unpaid internships with someone who thinks "but it's not illegal" is a valid argument in a debate about whether it should be illegal.

This kind of argument is a peculiarly unthinking, passive approach to political debate.

I quite well understand the need for flexible contracts in agriculture and the hospitality business, where there are huge seasonal variations in labour demands. But is anyone dumb enough to believe that an established groceries retailer has no idea whether it will need workers for 15 hours or 35 hours in a given week? That is incredibly naive.

Even if it were somehow true, a stable groceries business that is so incapable of predicting workers' hours would have to be grossly incompetent. Nobody is that stupid.

Well because the employee has signed a contract with the employer that states they have 15 hours a week work. If they get more then that is up for negotiation.
If an employe wanted full time hours in the first place then why sign a 15 hour contract?

Dunnes sell more than groceries these days, I think you know that. However, if or when Dunnes go down the route of Aldi or Lidl work practises then I think people will realise how good they have it. The nature of the business has changed and upper management has deemed it necessary to employ more causal workers.
This is not exactly news.

There may be some valid grievances but as usual a lot of hot air thrown in the mix too.

Eric Cartman

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I did business studies for the Junior Cert, and even then the course emphasised keeping employees happy.

yeah, that book also has a whole chapter on 'business ethics' that if anyone followed they'd lose money and be bankrupt in a week.

.
What if dunnes halfed the workforce and took on nobody new but gave the half left all 35 hour weeks , would that keep you all happy ? how do you think the half who got sacked would feel ?

jank

jank wrote: »

Dunnes sell more than groceries these days

Is the frying-pan, toaster and bathroom-furniture industry somehow more volatile than groceries? Daft point.

Nobody with two brain cells to rub together believes that Dunnes, or any large retailer, cannot predict its workforce needs over the medium term.

end of the road

jank wrote: »

I worked in Dunnes for years when I was young and in College. It was not that bad a place to work from memory. Certainly was not the worst job I ever had. You were expected to put in a shift and the part timers that did not were usually let go. Saying that if one is working in Dunnes on a full time capacity stocking shelves and the like with no further ambition to do go into management or go into education, then I would wager that would have more to do with Job Satisfaction then anything else. Dunnes employ you on a contact with a min of 15 hours, that is all you are legally entitled to. If one is not happy with their job, then no one is forcing you to stay. If you think you cannot get another job, then that is your problem not Dunnes or someone else.

Dunnes may be acting up, but this seems to be a power grab by the unions in order to legislate for collective bargaining, which would be the worst thing to happen!

excuses excuses excuses. dunnes are in the wrong. no amount of excuse making will change that. there is no power grab by the unions, thats just anti-union and anti-workers rights rubbish. legislating for collective bargaining, would be the right way to go.

Brendan Bendar

end of the road wrote: »

excuses excuses excuses. dunnes are in the wrong. no amount of excuse making will change that. there is no power grab by the unions, thats just anti-union and anti-workers rights rubbish. legislating for collective bargaining, would be the right way to go.

Total rubbish mate, complete hyperbole, it's an industrial dispute,there are probBly faults on both sides as in any dispute.

To come out with that kind of rubbish weakens your case.