Feedback required please

wav1

Had a bit of a debate with someone recently re prizes for A4..They were of the opinion that A4s should get cash and would prefer that.I am of the opposite opinion TBH.I normally dish out non monetary prizes to A4s and woman.If someone could add a poll it would be of great help to me particularly as we have an event this weekend.I think its also technically against C I regulations to give cash to the A4s,but that's not really my point.I would like the riders views.Thanks in advance.

Beasty

Poll added

lennymc

cash goes. non cash can sit on the mantle piece for all eternity, reminding you of how you won, or didnt win.

nak

Should be cash for women, same as the higher men's categories.

wirelessdude01

Non-cash

Small amount of cash plus a small something as a momento.

Raam

Own weight in chocolate, thanks.

bcmf

Non-cash

Cash plus non cash.
Best of both worlds.

wav1

nak wrote: »

Should be cash for women, same as the higher men's categories.

That particular one could be hard to achieve given the huge difference in field sizes..Not being in any way sexist just being realistic.

Arthurdaly

Most definitely a medal or trophy, the cash barely covers all the rubbish I buy in a service station on the way home from races!!

eeeee

Women's prizes should be equivalent to mens. No exceptions. One of the most irritating and discouraging things is to read stuff like that as a woman. It's not about the money it's about being valued as an equal. I have had it once or twice racing on track and it does no one any good, difficult and all though it may be. It makes you feel like ****, like an add on they had to do and you don't really matter*. There are less women racing than any other group. They should be encouraged, not treated differently for convenience. Sorry wav1, equality is important!

*ETA: The cycling community (well track as that's what I know) is awesome and very equal the majority of the time. It's just very off putting when it isn't, when you're already in a small minority. But 99% of the time it is, and that kind of atmosphere encourages more women. It could be someone's first race, and they have trained as hard and suffered as much as their male equivalent why should they not be treated the same?

wav1

gadetra wrote: »

Women's prizes should be equivalent to mens. No exceptions. One of the most irritating and discouraging things is to read stuff like that as a woman. It's not about the money it's about being valued as an equal. I have had it once or twice racing on track and it does no one any good, difficult and all though it may be. It makes you feel like ****, like an add on they had to do and you don't really matter*. There are less women racing than any other group. They should be encouraged, not treated differently for convenience. Sorry wav1, equality is important!

*ETA: The cycling community (well track as that's what I know) is awesome and very equal the majority of the time. It's just very off putting when it isn't, when you're already in a small minority. But 99% of the time it is, and that kind of atmosphere encourages more women. It could be someone's first race, and they have trained as hard and suffered as much as their male equivalent why should they not be treated the same?

I take your point but where do you suppose the money is supposed to come from?with no race sponsor?Say approx. 80 or so guys in A1/A2 race with a certain prize fund.How could it be realistic to expect an equal prize fund for maybe a field of less than 20 women riders.Again not being sexist but it just cant be done regardless of how strong you feel about it.
BTW I think we have been more supportive of womans racing than most given that we promote 2 or 3 open races each year for them

Lusk_Doyle

Is winning not enough of a reward in amateur racing? It would be for me if I ever won!

Inquitus

Non-cash

When A4 last year I preferred cash on a result, usually good for a takeaway and a couple of beers to celebrate, only non cash was at the Dunsany GP where I got some silver candle holder thing I gave to the missus.

Lumen

Prize money would be better spent bribing the gardai.

(joke!)

Zyzz

slowmoving

wav1 wrote: »

I take your point but where do you suppose the money is supposed to come from?with no race sponsor?Say approx. 80 or so guys in A1/A2 race with a certain prize fund.How could it be realistic to expect an equal prize fund for maybe a field of less than 20 women riders.Again not being sexist but it just cant be done regardless of how strong you feel about it.
BTW I think we have been more supportive of womans racing than most given that we promote 2 or 3 open races each year for them

Based on this logic, A4 and A3 prizes should surpass those of A1 and A2 for the vast majority of races seeing as they have more riders. That is if each category is supposed to cover only its own prize purse?

wav1

slowmoving wrote: »

Based on this logic, A4 and A3 prizes should surpass those of A1 and A2 for the vast majority of races seeing as they have more riders. That is if each category is supposed to cover only its own prize purse?

Fair point.TBH there wouldn't be a lot of difference between purses in most of the A1/A2 races and A3 races we run especially when you include Junior prizes,but yes a fair point.When I asked for opinion re the A4 races re money or non money prizes it wasn't from a financial angle at all,as anytime we gave out non money prizes previously they would have been equal in value pro rata to cash prizes.Its just to get feedback from the riders.TBH when I was racing myself regardless of category cash was always king.

Beasty

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Is winning not enough of a reward in amateur racing? It would be for me if I ever won!

We are also talking the lowest rung of the amateur ladder here. If people really do want some financial reward they even have the option of electing for A3

I can understand some of the A1s in particular who may spend a lot of time and effort training for some relatively high level events needing some incentive that can also help defray their costs, but in my view paying cash prizes to A4s is absurd (although it does provide a "soft" option for organisers who then don't have to think of some alternative prizes)

Of course it's easy for someone like me to say this and I've actually received a few cheques over the past few years (but I've never actually cashed any of them!). I've also received a few "keepsakes" which are a lasting memory of certain "achievements" and give me far more pleasure when I explain to the kids how I won them:)

ROK ON

Beasty wrote: »

We are also talking the lowest rung of the amateur ladder here. If people really do want some financial reward they even have the option of electing for A3

I can understand some of the A1s in particular who may spend a lot of time and effort training for some relatively high level events needing some incentive that can also help defray their costs, but in my view paying cash prizes to A4s is absurd (although it does provide a "soft" option for organisers who then don't have to think of some alternative prizes)
)

I don't think that it is ever acceptable to offer cash prizes for A1 thru to A4. You choose to race. What you spend in prepping for a race is ones own business. Why the hell should clubs hard pressed for resources waste this on riders who win or place. Is it not enough that a race is put on with all of the attendant cost. Cycling like any sport is a lifestyle choice and despite cash prizes being tradition I know of very few other sports where they are.
If people want to race they will do it without funds. If they want a cash incentive then they are fishing in the wrong pool. Cycling globally is not big enough to support pro cycling FFS. And yet races up and down the country will go to the ends of the earth to find a few shekels to pay some lad for sprinting for sixth A1 thru A3.
I think that's nuts.

Inquitus

Non-cash

ROK ON wrote: »

I don't think that it is ever acceptable to offer cash prizes for A1 thru to A4. You choose to race. What you spend in prepping for a race is ones own business. Why the hell should clubs hard pressed for resources waste this on riders who win or place. Is it not enough that a race is put on with all of the attendant cost. Cycling like any sport is a lifestyle choice and despite cash prizes being tradition I know of very few other sports where they are.
If people want to race they will do it without funds. If they want a cash incentive then they are fishing in the wrong pool. Cycling globally is not big enough to support pro cycling FFS. And yet races up and down the country will go to the ends of the earth to find a few shekels to pay some lad for sprinting for sixth A1 thru A3.
I think that's nuts.

Sure if you win an A4 race it might give you a couple of quid back on top of your entry fee, it's hardly like the economics of it are crazy. You give the first 6 across the line out of 100 their money back.......that's nuts.....is it?

Lusk_Doyle

Inquitus wrote: »

Sure if you win an A4 race it might give you a couple of quid back on top of your entry fee, it's hardly like the economics of it are crazy. You give the first 6 across the line out of 100 their money back.......that's nuts.....is it?

Yes.

GMCI

When creating the A4 category at the same time as restructuring the grading system, the original proposal was for no cash prizes for A4s.
But on further discussion what came back was that A4s would not have been treated as equal having paid their entry fee, the same as everybody else which is why I had to change it and include the prize structure like with all other categories.

Chips Lovell

Non-cash

Some posts deleted. Behave people.

Tenzor07

A4 definitely no cash prizes, as Beasty has stated it's the entry level into racing, people who probably go on a couple of spins a week and just want to take part in the thrill of a race at the weekends..

Cash prizes should definitely be given along with a trophy for the A1's and A2's, possibly A3 to a lesser amount also.

CramCycle

Get CI to print up a load of medals (similar to the ones you got at underage GAA), stamp the race name on it and the year. Economies of scale etc. Provide every race organiser with a set for A4.

That alone would be enough for me, although the entry fee back would also be nice for the top 3 but medals first if the race funds provided for it.

De Bhál

I don't care either way, probably prefer cash if I placed but if I won I'd like a trophy of some sort, just something cheap.

Main thing I'd like brought in is that A4's and 3's have the option of collecting their prize directly after their race and not have to wait another 1.5 hours for the A1/2's to finish up.


Would prevent this happening

The scenario - you travel to the race with three team mates in the club car.
"sorry guys, I came sixth I'm just gonna hang on here for 2 hours to get my €20 and have my picture taken"

tunney

I have seen similar in other sports. Delusions of grandeur.

A4 racing is the lowest rung of amateur cycling racing. Should there be cash prizes at the top end of amateur racing - that point is debatable in my opinion. Should there be cash prizes at the low end of amateur racing - no not at all, not even debatable. Promotion to higher grades is all that should motivate, or maybe a trophy/medal.

Inquitus

Non-cash

tunney wrote: »

I have seen similar in other sports. Delusions of grandeur.

A4 racing is the lowest rung of amateur cycling racing. Should there be cash prizes at the top end of amateur racing - that point is debatable in my opinion. Should there be cash prizes at the low end of amateur racing - no not at all, not even debatable. Promotion to higher grades is all that should motivate, or maybe a trophy/medal.

Getting €20 back for placing in a race you paid €15 to enter is hardly delusions of grandeur, it'll buy you a curry and a couple of pints for dinner that evening. Net cost of giving €20 to the first six in an A4 race that costs €15 to enter is €30 or 2 other entry fees in a field of 100. If we were talking big money I'd agree with you, but the economics of giving out these trivial prizes is hardly relevant to the cost of promoting the events.

lennymc

I got a second place and got an envelope with a few quid. I would have preferred some kind of keepsake. The money was gone that night - I cant remember what i did with it. The keepsake would have been a constant reminder that I should have pushed the swords rider that beat me into the ditch...

IMHO 20 quid pot makes no difference to me, but a trophy lasts forever.

Inquitus

Non-cash

lennymc wrote: »

I got a second place and got an envelope with a few quid. I would have preferred some kind of keepsake. The money was gone that night - I cant remember what i did with it. The keepsake would have been a constant reminder that I should have pushed the swords rider that beat me into the ditch...

IMHO 20 quid pot makes no difference to me, but a trophy lasts forever.

Aye but the non cash prizes are generally not trophies, they are like candlestick holders and the like. A Trophy to keep would do nicely, better than some crappy silver plated bauble!

Chips Lovell

Non-cash

I remember one women's national league race a few years ago where the prizes included towels, shampoo and a set of book ends. The box for the book ends had been opened.

lennymc

next time i place I'm ordering one of these out of my winnings:

Chips Lovell

Non-cash

De Bhál wrote: »

Main thing I'd like brought in is that A4's and 3's have the option of collecting their prize directly after their race and not have to wait another 1.5 hours for the A1/2's to finish up.

The issue here is that the people running the race are still out on the road.

CramCycle

Inquitus wrote: »

Aye but the non cash prizes are generally not trophies, they are like candlestick holders and the like. A Trophy to keep would do nicely, better than some crappy silver plated bauble!

I think the Medal, get someone to design a general, Cycling Ireland medal, have it either in one colour with different ribbons for position, or three colours to signify position. Pre make at the beginning of the year, and leave a set with every crowd running a race. We had them costed for Audax Ireland, it's not that big a deal and most manufacturers are quite nice in giving a hand with the design if your not that way inclined. The only cost to the organising club would be to get the medals punched or engraved with the race name, the year can be part of the design.

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

The issue here is that the people running the race are still out on the road.

Precisely, I think alot of people don't realise how much feet on the ground are needed for an open race, and then, how difficult it is to get those feet on the ground. Expecting them to have spares to hand out medals while the other race is still ongoing is tough. It may also be that those who are then free, want to see the end of the race they helped out with.

buffalo

My trophy for a minor placing in the Dunsany GP one year is still pride of place in the trophy cabinet. The envelope I got for a silver position earlier that year is long gone. I don't even remember what colour it was.

Cash is nice and all, but I wouldn't miss it if it was replaced with trophies - particularly classy ones for the higher placings. Imagine the pride you'd feel looking at your shelf of prizes!

buffalo

PS if anyone disagrees, I'll buy your trophy from you.

Chips Lovell

Non-cash

I was about to post that you can't buy beer and nappies with medals. But now I can. By selling them to Buffalo.

CramCycle

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

I was about to post that you can't buy beer and nappies with medals. But now I can. By selling them to Buffalo.

How much do you drink? and how lazy are you? :pac:

Lusk_Doyle

buffalo wrote: »

My trophy for a minor placing in the Dunsany GP one year is still pride of place in the trophy cabinet. The envelope I got for a silver position earlier that year is long gone. I don't even remember what colour it was.

Cash is nice and all, but I wouldn't miss it if it was replaced with trophies - particularly classy ones for the higher placings. Imagine the pride you'd feel looking at your shelf of prizes!

Ground control to Major Tom. Your circuits gone.

lennymc

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Ground control to Major Tom. Your circuits gone.

You don't have a trophy cabinet?

Solobally8

I like the idea of a little trophy as a prize for A4. A trophy and points should be enough.

The issue of women's prizes and points really needs to be looked at though, things have to change on that front but maybe a new thread is needed for that.

Beasty

Solobally8 wrote: »

The issue of women's prizes and points really needs to be looked at though, things have to change on that front but maybe a new thread is needed for that.

Wasn't there something passed at the CI AGM to introduce a separate grading system for women in 2016?

On the issue of prizes, I see Joe Daly sponsor the National League. I presume anything they put in goes on administration to support the league. Is it then a matter of whoever puts on the event comes up with the prizes? What about the races at Corkagh Park - are there any prizes there?

Harrybelafonte

Tenzor07 wrote: »

A4 definitely no cash prizes, as Beasty has stated it's the entry level into racing, people who probably go on a couple of spins a week and just want to take part in the thrill of a race at the weekends..

Whoa! That's the worst anyone has made me feel in a loooong time.

Beasty

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Whoa! That's the worst anyone has made me feel in a loooong time.

TBH in your position I could see one of 2 approaches. If you really are looking to progress on the road you have the option of upgrading to A3 (getting the points is typically going to be a bit more difficult than in other provinces as fields tend to be quite large in Leinster). Alternatively if you see it more as training for your ambitions on the track A4 might well be the right category anyway - the races are a bit shorter but equally you can get a decent workout even if only through going on some suicidal break with 5km to go.

I personally have few ambitions on the road but will use some racing (mainly club league and IVCA) to build up for TTs and the track, so A4 is an ideal category for me (it also qualifies me for the Ulster Masters racing)

Harrybelafonte

That is the approach at the mo Beasty, but I still think the comment re thrill of racing is low.

As for the topic. The points would do me. No cash, no momentos.

CramCycle

A photo of me crossing the line at the front would be pretty much all I would want, everything else is secondary.

buffalo

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Ground control to Major Tom. Your circuits gone.

There's some truth in that mocking. My biggest trophy still resides in my late Granny's house. I haven't had the heart to take it home yet.

endacl

Raam wrote: »

Own weight in chocolate, thanks.

Bike's weight in chocolate. Could lead to interesting compromises.

nak

Beasty wrote: »

What about the races at Corkagh Park - are there any prizes there?

Yes, entry fees are split amongst top 3 in each race and there may be a prime. Individual clubs running races sometimes get sponsors who provide further prizes.

Lusk_Doyle

lennymc wrote: »

You don't have a trophy cabinet?

Can't put the young fella in it and he's my greatest trophy so no point!

I also have no trophies. A moxy load of rosettes from my time as a champion jockey as a young fella but no trophies!

Lusk_Doyle

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Whoa! That's the worst anyone has made me feel in a loooong time.

Also way off the mark in many cases.