Does 'Irish Heritage' mean anything to you?

Iwasfrozen

Eramen wrote: »

But your achievements are based and built upon the achievements of others. To say otherwise is selfish. This is how the concepts and realities of nationality, culture, history were born and are held in great esteem - they represent the shared experience of the group.

However in modern times we live in a ME first culture which recklessly regards the works of others with a misplaced, selfish sense of individuality.

We all stand on the shoulders of giants but while I recognize the achievements of others I obviously don't take pride in them. I can naturally only take pride in my own achievements.

Eramen wrote: »

We are all members of a team - a great biological, linguistic and cultural empire. So is everyone part of their own distinct group and rendered valuable in this way. I think it's a great thing to be a part of.
.

Some being far more valuable than others.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Eramen wrote: »

But your achievements are based and built upon the achievements of others. To say otherwise is selfish. This is how the concepts and realities of nationality, culture, history were born and are held in great esteem - they represent the shared experience of the group.

We are all members of a team - a great biological, linguistic and cultural empire. So is everyone part of their own distinct group and rendered valuable in this way. I think it's a great thing to be a part of.

However in modern times we live in a 'ME first' culture which recklessly disregards the works of others with a misplaced & selfish sense of false-individuality.

The fallacy here is the assumption that we learn from people who are of the same heritage as us, which is wrong.

I'm an artist - the two best teachers I've had are a Brazillian bodypainter and a gay New York fashion designer. Absolutly nothing to do with Irish heritage. Yes, I am greaful; yes my achiements are based on their teaching, but far more basis is my own hard work and my own ideas - and that is the far more important part.

Call it selfish if you like, but you have to pay attention to the self if you want to achieve anything.

Pumpkinseeds

Eramen wrote: »

You and others are suffering from what Durkheim termed the Anomie, which is the breakage of social bonds between individual and community. Naturally this leads to an absence of common morality and identities, a very negative proposition. Hence today we are seeing the sub-cultures and the political 'filling' this void in the person as they restlessly seek an identity and world-story in which to find belonging.

Though for most, nationality, culture, history and family still plays an important role.

Still if we look at things with a clear mind we can see the past is a certainty. Thus it's the only means of reliably measuring ourselves through reason to guide our actions in the present.

For this reason I'd argue that for those who want to live well in the here and now, you actually have to love and remember the past, as much as your own personal history. It's the guiding light that culminates in the current moment.

Remember the present time is short.. and the future doubtful, but the past is entirely ours.

OK, I'm starting to feel a tad embarrassed for you now.

Iwasfrozen

Medracic wrote: »

You miss your true worth my measuring it through achievements.

Jesus, 40 ad

I don't think Jesus ever said that..

Eramen

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

That's what the chruch says too. But you can go through life making your own decisions regarding morality and stil have a strong identity.

The thing often not pointed out abotu sub-cultures is that they have an identity - an identity that they forged for themsleves, which is an even more powerful thing than something just handed down.

Like many others, I wouldn't say I love the past and I feel no leser a being for it. I do respect it though - if only because I can point to it with certainty and say that is NOT who I am.

No, no, no, I'm just not buying into the usual 'victimhood' at the hands of the church diatribe which so many seem to have contracted. We might as well blame the English and 'ol dead Devalera while we're at it.

The fact is that no outside source can be 'blamed' for the cultural or social problems Ireland now faces, even though it would be easier to believe so (like you have done). Our problems today stem from our own collective inadequacy in the present (shocking, I know). Yet.. here you are saying you embrace the present but now can't wait to bring up the past as a point of contention.

Lastly, I'd say that sub-cultural identities aren't forged by the person, for the person, like you are saying. The sub-cultures are actually forged by leaders, people who have put in a tremendous amount of hard work and effort to perfecting a talent and mastering certain skills.

The masses only hop on board after the dust has settled and the hard work has been done (whether in music, sport, crafts, arts, etc) and it's 'easy' to now belong to it. The last thing on each of their minds is the actual mastering of the skill of that particular sub-culture, as most are there just to find social inclusion and no more. I would not in the least bit self-congratulatory about sub-cultures in the way that you are.

It just goes to show that a small minority of mankind bring about changes and perfections for the benefit of the many. Sub-cultures are the preserve of followers for the most part, the leaders have moved on or remain at the very top of the movements.

Pumpkinseeds

Medracic wrote: »

You miss your true worth my measuring it through achievements.

Jesus, 40 ad

^^^
Ladies and gentlemen I think we've met Boards newest troll.:D

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Eramen wrote: »

No, no, no, I'm just not buying into the usual 'victimhood' at the hands of the church diatribe which so many seem to have contracted. We might as well blame the English and 'ol dead Devalera while we're at it.

The fact is that no outside source can be 'blamed' for the cultural or social problems Ireland now faces, even though it would be easier to believe so (like you have done). Our problems today stem from our own collective inadequacy in the present (shocking, I know). Yet.. here you are saying you embrace the present but now can't wait to bring up the past as a point of contention.

Lastly, I'd say that sub-cultural identities aren't forged by the person, for the person, like you are saying. The sub-cultures are actually forged by leaders, people who have put in a tremendous amount of hard work and effort to perfecting a talent and mastering certain skills.

The masses only hop on board after the dust has settled and the hard work has been done (whether in music, sport, crafts, arts, etc) and it's 'easy' to now belong to it. I would not in the least be self-congratulatory about sub-cultures in the way that you are.

It just goes to show that a small minority of mankind bring about changes and perfections for the benefit of the many. Sub-cultures are the preserve of followers for the most part, the leaders have moved on or remain at the very top of the movements.

Except that's not what I said. This is nothing to do with victimhood. Where do I blame the church for anything...??

You said "the breakage of social bonds between individual and community ... leads to an absence of common morality and identities, a very negative proposition."

Any institution what needs to keep control of a large group of people will tell you that you need them for morality - I just used the church as an example. I then went on to say sepcifcally that "you can go through life making your own decisions regarding morality and stil have a strong identity" - so where you get the victimhood line from, I do not know.

Whether or not people hop on subculture bandwagons or not is irrelevant - point is, they do so because they identify with them and not with with the past that is supposed to be their heritage. They find an acceptable and improved meaning within their lives with them. To say otherwise, one would have to have an in-depth knowledge of the philosphy of subcultures and the people within them.

On that basis, heritage is not as important as you claim it to be - peope live fulfilling lives and find identity, fraternity and achievement anyway. I'd fruther my argment that identification with the self and groups you choose to belong to is for mroe important than heritage.

kingchess

Would it be a bit mischievous( and I know its premature) to wish every body a happy ST Patrick"s day??

Iwasfrozen

kingchess wrote: »

Would it be a bit mischievous( and I know its premature) to wish every body a happy ST Patrick"s day??

Not at all, happy Patty's day to you too.

66ad

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not at all, happy Patty's day to you too.

Ahh bless, look at you trying to be funny :rolleyes:

Iwasfrozen

66ad wrote: »

Ahh bless, look at you trying to be funny :rolleyes:

Well you know what they say, "humor is in the eye of the beholder."

beks101

I'm proud of being Irish. I might have had no hand in becoming so, but having travelled the world and lived in different countries and seen how our sense of community and culture can play out, I find it to be a privilege.

I love our sense of humour and spirit. How you can be on the other side of the world and still naturally gravitate towards the other Irish person in the room because of their hilarious take on life and familiarly light-hearted sense of self deprecation. How they don't take themselves too seriously. How we value personality and education and travel where other cultures value status and appearance. How having an informed opinion and a joie de vivre is as important as anything else.

Of course these are all generalizations, but I've found them to exist for a reason across the board.

I didn't realize how incredibly fortunate and rare it was to have grown up five minutes from the sea until I moved abroad and was surrounded by people who had never seen the ocean. How sweet and pure that salty smell of seaweed that used to hit my nose every time I left the house was until I was suddenly surrounded by the smog and pollution of a busy international city.

The ability to drive from the bottom to the top of the country in the space of a few hours and to experience such remarkable geographical beauty and diversity in accent and mannerisms and county-specific traits along the way. All of which is shrouded in friendliness and this sort of parochial charm. How that sense of community and familiarity can help you so immensely when you're far from home. Since I've lived abroad I've had other Irish people point me in the direction of jobs, flats and help me out with visa issues or offer advice on flights or the best pubs, best place for a decent fry up etc when they recognized me as 'one of their own.' And in reality they'd probably do it anyway just for the feck of it - I find Irish people on the main to be incredibly generous and helpful people who love to chat, love to laugh, love to connect.

And then there's the history of the country which is complex, fractured, sad, victorious. It probably contributed to the fighting spirit. None of my ancestors would take it lying down, like. How growing up on the tail-end of The Troubles broadened my understanding of civil war, of global conflict, of religion, of colonialism, of national identity. I came into my job as a journalist because of my heightened awareness of these issues from an early age and I learned from an early age that it was important to be informed, to be engaged, to know what's going on and where I came from.

I think it's sad how there's this growing popularity in Irish-bashing; considering your place of birth to be irrelevant or in some way, unimportant. I think it's very important and I take pride in celebrating it. Not by getting locked or drinking green beer. But in acknowledging that it plays an important part in how I see the world, how I approach life and how I relate to other people.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

beks101 wrote: »

I think it's sad how there's this growing popularity in Irish-bashing; considering your place of birth to be irrelevant or in some way, unimportant. I think it's very important and I take pride in celebrating it. Not by getting locked or drinking green beer. But in acknowledging that it plays an important part in how I see the world, how I approach life and how I relate to other people.

There's a huge difference between thinking someting is irrevant or unimportand and "bashing" - no-one is Irish-bashing here.

You use the word "I" a lot in that paragrpah - which is great: for you. But this is not universal and to some of us, the important things in our lives and the more influential forces come are simply not the ones we grew up with.

Iwasfrozen

beks101 wrote: »

I'm proud of being Irish. I might have had no hand in becoming so, but having travelled the world and lived in different countries and seen how our sense of community and culture can play out, I find it to be a privilege.

I love our sense of humour and spirit. How you can be on the other side of the world and still naturally gravitate towards the other Irish person in the room because of their hilarious take on life and familiarly light-hearted sense of self deprecation. How they don't take themselves too seriously. How we value personality and education and travel where other cultures value status and appearance. How having an informed opinion and a joie de vivre is as important as anything else.

Of course these are all generalizations, but I've found them to exist for a reason across the board.

I didn't realize how incredibly fortunate and rare it was to have grown up five minutes from the sea until I moved abroad and was surrounded by people who had never seen the ocean. How sweet and pure that salty smell of seaweed that used to hit my nose every time I left the house was until I was suddenly surrounded by the smog and pollution of a busy international city.

The ability to drive from the bottom to the top of the country in the space of a few hours and to experience such remarkable geographical beauty and diversity in accent and mannerisms and county-specific traits along the way. All of which is shrouded in friendliness and this sort of parochial charm. How that sense of community and familiarity can help you so immensely when you're far from home. Since I've lived abroad I've had other Irish people point me in the direction of jobs, flats and help me out with visa issues or offer advice on flights or the best pubs, best place for a decent fry up etc when they recognized me as 'one of their own.' And in reality they'd probably do it anyway just for the feck of it - I find Irish people on the main to be incredibly generous and helpful people who love to chat, love to laugh, love to connect.

And then there's the history of the country which is complex, fractured, sad, victorious. It probably contributed to the fighting spirit. None of my ancestors would take it lying down, like. How growing up on the tail-end of The Troubles broadened my understanding of civil war, of global conflict, of religion, of colonialism, of national identity. I came into my job as a journalist because of my heightened awareness of these issues from an early age and I learned from an early age that it was important to be informed, to be engaged, to know what's going on and where I came from.

I think it's sad how there's this growing popularity in Irish-bashing; considering your place of birth to be irrelevant or in some way, unimportant. I think it's very important and I take pride in celebrating it. Not by getting locked or drinking green beer. But in acknowledging that it plays an important part in how I see the world, how I approach life and how I relate to other people.

The society in which one is raised is important in the sense that it shapes our identities but to take pride in something you can't control and didn't contribute to is, odd.

I only take pride in my achievements, I recognize that I am Irish but it's not a source of pride because being born in a random country is nothing to be proud of. Ireland is a great country to grow up in for certain, but I didn't contribute to any of that and neither did you so to take pride in that fact is as I said in my last paragraph, odd.

expectationlost

Deleted User wrote: »

Hello, folks...

I'd like to gather AH opinions on the meaning/relevance/importance of 'Irish Heritage'.

As far as I can tell, from about Gen Y-ers onwards -- and some Gen X-ers, too -- Irish heritage has lost a load of relevance and is not a central area of interest to many.

As for me, I'm interested more in Irish Catholic heritage and our natural heritage (as in landscapes, rivers, mountains...) than political heritage. However, although I would say that the former two are important to me, I do not necessarily consider them a central part of my life and way of thinking.

I'll leave it up to you guys to describe your own definition of heritage along with your rating of it on the poll (and any other comments you think are relevant to answering the thread title).

Many thanks!

EDIT: The last option in the poll should read 'It's more or less irrelevant...', of course.

catholic heritage isn't political?

beks101

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The society in which one is raised is important in the sense that it shapes our identities but to take pride in something you can't control and didn't contribute to is, odd.

I find this notion odd, to be perfectly frank.

I'm proud of my sister and I can't control her and didn't contribute to her making. She is who is she and I'm proud that I'm related to her, associated with her, of the same ilk.

Same goes for all my family. Same goes for the country I was born in.

Having grown up in Ireland contributes in some way to my identity. It's not something I have 'achieved' but it gives me a sense of belonging and an understanding of some of the ways I think, or relate to others etc. There are certainly cultural aspects that have determined the course of my life - the culture of travel, for example, or the dark sense of humour, or the ease with which we can often strike up conversation with strangers. They all play into my personality.

I think it's a deadly little country with a far-reaching global impact given its size and yeah, that's often-times a proud feeling.

I don't get why that's something that dismays or unsettles people.

Karl Stein

beks101 wrote: »

I don't get why that's something that dismays or unsettles people.

We have an entrenched cohort of pseuds who consider any pride in our country or nation as something that belongs to uncouth subordinates.

Iwasfrozen

beks101 wrote: »

I find this notion odd, to be perfectly frank.

I'm proud of my sister and I can't control her and didn't contribute to her making. She is who is she and I'm proud that I'm related to her, associated with her, of the same ilk.

Same goes for all my family. Same goes for the country I was born in.

Having grown up in Ireland contributes in some way to my identity. It's not something I have 'achieved' but it gives me a sense of belonging and an understanding of some of the ways I think, or relate to others etc. There are certainly cultural aspects that have determined the course of my life - the culture of travel, for example, or the dark sense of humour, or the ease with which we can often strike up conversation with strangers. They all play into my personality.

I think it's a deadly little country with a far-reaching global impact given its size and yeah, that's often-times a proud feeling.

I don't get why that's something that dismays or unsettles people.

But to be perfectly frank you did contribute to your sister's success, and your families. A person's family and individual family members are within their sphere of control, your country is not. You didn't contribute to the success of Ireland and if you did in your professional life you did so in an insignificant way. I and everyone else are the same, even the most powerful people in the country couldn't have influenced the country before they were born and couldn't have controlled the environment they would be born into.

I can understand the sense of belonging and identity, I don't understand taking pride in the achievements of others or the achievements of the country as a whole.

If I'm supposed to draw pride from being born in Ireland am I also supposed to draw pride in the achievements of white people? Or brown eyed people? Or people with the same height as me? Or left handed people? Or heterosexuals? All these things are equally out of my control.

Cienciano

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for...

Darby O'Gill is a fúcking brilliant film.

aidoh

Looking at old castles covered in moss and crows dotted all over the island. Stumbling upon a mysterious old celtic-era tomb in the woods when you're out for a walk. Looking at the statue of Cú Chulainn slumped over in the GPO. You'd be a bit of a miserable bint if these meant absolutely nothing to you whatsoever.

Yeah there's no great 'manifest destiny' as to why we were born on this Island but it's terribly sad that people are so quick to claim complete detachment from a place that their ancestors have probably been in for thousands of years (which in itself is pretty cool if even in a makey-uppey, ethereal kind of way).

Fvck it, let's put a motorway through Newgrange. It's just a pile of stupid old rocks and Stonehenge and the Giza pyramids are way better because they aren't in Ireland. While we're at it let's turn Killarney into a housing estate. Who cares about Irish nature when there's other countries that also have wildlife?

beks101

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But to be perfectly frank you did contribute to your sister's success, and your families. A person's family and individual family members are within their sphere of control, your country is not. You didn't contribute to the success of Ireland and if you did in your professional life you did so in an insignificant way. I and everyone else are the same, even the most powerful people in the country couldn't have influenced the country before they were born and couldn't have controlled the environment they would be born into.

I can understand the sense of belonging and identity, I don't understand taking pride in the achievements of others or the achievements of the country as a whole.

If I'm supposed to draw pride from being born in Ireland am I also supposed to draw pride in the achievements of white people? Or brown eyed people? Or people with the same height as me? Or left handed people? Or heterosexuals? All these things are equally out of my control.

You could pretty much invalidate any single emotion that any single human being on this planet experiences by intellectualizing and breaking down and ripping apart a sentiment to this extent.

Saying I feel proud of my nationality is not the same thing as holding up my hands and claiming responsibility for my country's success or having influenced its culture in any real sense.

I just like where I come from and the positive influence it's had on my life, that's all. The country is beautiful, the history is rich and the people are wonderful, aside from the usual assholes you'll get anywhere. How or why or where you draw your pride from is entirely your own business.

Eramen

aidoh wrote: »

Looking at old castles covered in moss and crows dotted all over the island. Stumbling upon a mysterious old celtic-era tomb in the woods when you're out for a walk. Looking at the statue of Cú Chulainn slumped over in the GPO. You'd be a bit of a miserable bint if these meant absolutely nothing to you whatsoever.

Yeah there's no great 'manifest destiny' as to why we were born on this Island but it's terribly sad that people are so quick to claim complete detachment from a place that their ancestors have probably been in for thousands of years (which in itself is pretty cool if even in a makey-uppey, ethereal kind of way).

Fvck it, let's put a motorway through Newgrange. It's just a pile of stupid old rocks and Stonehenge and the Giza pyramids are way better because they aren't in Ireland. While we're at it let's turn Killarney into a housing estate. Who cares about Irish nature when there's other countries that also have wildlife?

While I found your post humorous, it's sad that this is the cynicism that we are confronted with at every turn by people who can't respect anything greater than themselves.

In my own personal opinion, people who harbour a resentment for the past are still working out personal issues that cause them to be incapable of looking back into such things.

I hope that our people can regain the confidence to look at our history as it really is again. Americans, Germans, French, Canadians, Chinese when visiting our nation will tell you how incredibly rich and mysterious it is; I wish we could see they aren't making it all up

languagenerd

I've never been one for the sort of flag-waving "we're-the-best-country-in-the-world"-type patriotism that you find in other nations (I don't think we have much of that in Ireland, except at sports matches or Paddy's Day), but I do feel a big connection with Irish heritage and culture.

It's the people who shaped the country we have today; the shared history and collective memory that brought us here. No, I had no part in any of that and I certainly don't think Ireland is perfect, but it is where we came from and, like it or not, large parts of our individual attitudes and values have been influenced by it.

I currently live away from Ireland, in a similar country, but with slight differences - so now I notice all those little quirks more: the way we speak the English language, our casual self-deprecation, the general sense of mischief and the cultural references that you only understand if you've lived in Ireland. These all developed through our history and heritage.

So, yes, it is important to me. Not in an all-consuming "Eirinn go bráth" kind of way, but just as an understanding of who we are and something many Irish people like to share.

Iwasfrozen

beks101 wrote: »

You could pretty much invalidate any single emotion that any single human being on this planet experiences by intellectualizing and breaking down and ripping apart a sentiment to this extent.

Saying I feel proud of my nationality is not the same thing as holding up my hands and claiming responsibility for my country's success or having influenced its culture in any real sense.

I just like where I come from and the positive influence it's had on my life, that's all. The country is beautiful, the history is rich and the people are wonderful, aside from the usual assholes you'll get anywhere. How or why or where you draw your pride from is entirely your own business.

I understand what you mean, perhaps pride is the wrong word.

DoYouEvenLift

Ireland's too concerned with pandering to European overlords and becoming Americanised for your silly heritage to be considered important!