Scotland v Ireland build-up thread

foleypio

Healy needs to be dropped for this match, was a disgrace against Wales, shameful performance. Too occupied with putting s***e up on Twitter

total former

shuffol wrote: »

Scotland have lost their 4 games by 7, 3, 3, and 12 points respectively. A poor side but not a shambles. The most points they've conceded is 26 and their backline is well capable of scoring tries at home. We'd have to show considerably more than we've looked capable of in the championship to date to win by more than 2 scores. England playing after us is a big disadvantage too.

Yep, agree with this.

What also concerns me is that Scotland are much less equipped than Wales to deal with the tactics we've employed so far in the 6N, so we might stick with the kick-chase-ruck game that has been generally effective this season.

The problem with that is that while it might give us the win, it's unlikely to yield a wide margin of victory which I think we will need.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

Probably for the match thread but I felt those shots were turned down because Sexton didn't fancy them. They were tight on the sideline.

There was one when we were 6 points down that was a good bit infield and another advantage that we had in the middle of the park where we played on and ended up with a penalty out wide. Certainly 2 of them were kickable and Johnny did seem to have no problem from the tee really.

Anyway, as I said we'll need at least a 15 point win to have a shot, meaning Wales will need at least a 37 point win. Last time Wales put that kind of score on Italy was 2008. In 2005 they won by 30 points, but in the last 10 years they are the only times they've put a big score on the Italians. And prior to that they only did it twice. Of those 4 occasions where they put a score on Italy only once was in Rome (the 30 pointer in 2005). With any luck the Italians will keep the score down a bit which should ease the pressure on us somewhat. Not that I'm massively confident of that after the utter shambles that was yesterdays game. But we can hope. And France may take some confidence from their second half yesterday too going to Twickenham. I wouldn't expect anything but a home win, but given England's inability to finish chances against Scotland I'd be hopeful that the French could make it a tight game.

I honestly think its all to play for this weekend and I reckon we have it in us to get the 15 point win. Scotland won't have the defensive abilities the Welsh had. They'll be rightly fired up for it but as long as we're not too loose, which I think England were thinking they'd run up a handy score, we should have far too much for them.

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

There was one when we were 6 points down that was a good bit infield and another advantage that we had in the middle of the park where we played on and ended up with a penalty out wide. Certainly 2 of them were kickable and Johnny did seem to have no problem from the tee really.

I don't think so, personally. But that's just my opinion. They were tight on the right hand side of the pitch. I doubt we'd have done something stupid like 'Oh I think we can get a try here' when we were 6 points down. I just don't think Sexton felt up for it, maybe because of the hammy. Either way we didn't want to risk kicking the possession down the toilet.

Anyway, as I said we'll need at least a 15 point win to have a shot, meaning Wales will need at least a 37 point win. Last time Wales put that kind of score on Italy was 2008. In 2005 they won by 30 points, but in the last 10 years they are the only times they've put a big score on the Italians. And prior to that they only did it twice. Of those 4 occasions where they put a score on Italy only once was in Rome (the 30 pointer in 2005). With any luck the Italians will keep the score down a bit which should ease the pressure on us somewhat. Not that I'm massively confident of that after the utter shambles that was yesterdays game. But we can hope. And France may take some confidence from their second half yesterday too going to Twickenham. I wouldn't expect anything but a home win, but given England's inability to finish chances against Scotland I'd be hopeful that the French could make it a tight game.

I honestly think its all to play for this weekend and I reckon we have it in us to get the 15 point win. Scotland won't have the defensive abilities the Welsh had. They'll be rightly fired up for it but as long as we're not too loose, which I think England were thinking they'd run up a handy score, we should have far too much for them.

I struggle to remember the last time we played free flowing high-try rugby in Murrayfield.

Hopefully we can go out there and right some wrongs and put in a massive shift, that alone may yield a good few points from the boots, and hopefully as the game wears on we can run in a few tries.

But we need to beat Scotland first. Using history has bitten us before, they're a decent coached team and if they fix their defensive issues the could cause us problems.

thomond2006

.ak wrote: »

I struggle to remember the last time we played free flowing high-try rugby in Murrayfield.

Ireland played some good rugby in the 2013 fixture.

I can't remember what else happened in that match. Can't remember any poor kicks for example.

.ak

Also, I don't expect any changes for Saturday... Although, one 'curveball' I think we might see is... Jones. I think he might start.

thomond2006

.ak wrote: »

Also, I don't expect any changes for Saturday... Although, one 'curveball' I think we might see is... Jones. I think he might start.

Well starting him makes more sense than having him on the bench.

(If it's Jones for Kearney): It would be quite a story if Kearney was dropped, he's been Ireland's undisputed fullback since the Grand Slam.

total former

.ak wrote: »

Also, I don't expect any changes for Saturday... Although, one 'curveball' I think we might see is... Jones. I think he might start.

:eek:

That would be a serious curveball alright. I don't see it happening but it would be interesting if nothing else.

Comments from Joe re Jones in the Times:
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/super-saturday-decider-may-not-be-so-super-for-ireland-1.2140941

Felix has been incredibly good for us and has offered a really good change-up for us. We haven’t seen a lot of him attacking; he has been coming into games where he has mostly been defending because we haven’t had an attacking last quarter so far.

I dunno, that's a bizarre comment to make.

.ak

total former wrote: »

:eek:

That would be a serious curveball alright. I don't see it happening but it would be interesting if nothing else.

Comments from Joe re Jones in the Times:
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/super-saturday-decider-may-not-be-so-super-for-ireland-1.2140941


I dunno, that's a bizarre comment to make.

Yeah I read that too. Weird. I don't really get the point he's making. It's basically saying he's been training well so deserves the slot. Fair enough. But he doesn't seem to trust him as an impact sub - although, if you go into the science of it, the 23 jersey is a strange one. You're basically there to cover 5 positions, where as most other subs cover 1 or 2 specialist slots. So if you bring your 23 on in a tight game, what happens when someone else in the backline gets injured...? Well, we all know the answer....

POM to left wing.

Anyway, I don't think Jones will start, but just putting it out there that the way Schmidt is going on about him it'd be an interesting development. If he did start I'd imagine it'd be on the wing, perhaps instead of Zebo. Jones has a mean chase and is obviously better in the air. The stuff stops there though...

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

:eek:

That would be a serious curveball alright. I don't see it happening but it would be interesting if nothing else.

Comments from Joe re Jones in the Times:
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/super-saturday-decider-may-not-be-so-super-for-ireland-1.2140941


I dunno, that's a bizarre comment to make.

Jones has offered us a change-up????? He came on with 9 minutes to go against England because of Paynes concussion and came on for 12 minutes for Bowe when the game was won and we did nothing of note while he was on. He didn't make it onto the field against either France or Wales. And against England his presence forced us to play Bowe at 13 which is less than ideal in fairness.

I love Joe as a coach, but I'm still going to have to call BS on this. Mainly because, well, it's complete BS. Jones has been the wrong call for the 23 shirt and I was happy to leave that go to an extent given how we were doing. But we need a good win this weekend and that means we need someone on the bench who can really add something to the back line. That simply is not Jones. End of story.

total former

Yeah, the last sentence especially;

"We haven't had an attacking last quarter so far"

Eh, what about the game two days ago Joe?

razorblunt

I think Scotland have a big performance in them, Italy game aside they've shown they're not a bad team at all. This has shades of their win at Croke Park about it.

Will be interesting to see if Scott is passed fit, he is the perfect foil for Bennett rather than the two battering rams that were Dunbar and Bennett together.

.ak

total former wrote: »

Yeah, the last sentence especially;

"We haven't had an attacking last quarter so far"

Eh, what about the game two days ago Joe?

Well I think the question posed to him is why he selected him for the bench, so he's talking about the games prior to the Welsh game.

shuffol

I think Jones is just a blind spot for Schmidt unfortunately, every coach has them at some stage. I can't see him making the change now because of the attention it would receive and questions it would raise at this stage. There'll be rotation in the warmups, Jones, Fitz, Earls will all get opportunities if fit and the latter two will play their way ahead of him.

shuffol

.ak wrote: »

Well I think the question posed to him is why he selected him for the bench, so he's talking about the games prior to the Welsh game.

Yes but the quote would suggest that he envisioned him playing a role for us in an attacking context which he obviously doesn't.

Quint2010

.ak wrote: »

Also, I don't expect any changes for Saturday... Although, one 'curveball' I think we might see is... Jones. I think he might start.

Dont think Jones will out Kearney. Zebo maybe but not Kearney. I would prefer to see the centre partnership changed up.

Yeah_Right

Have to say that I really don't understand calls to change the centre pairing. Henshaw has probably been the best back in the first 3 matches while Payne has been solid and was the best back on Saturday.

.ak

shuffol wrote: »

Yes but the quote would suggest that he envisioned him playing a role for us in an attacking context which he obviously doesn't.

I get that, but the Welsh game was a bit of a strange affair, it was more the forwards that needed to get over the gainline to provide a platform, changing the backs wouldn't have made a difference.

Anyway, I'm only playing devil's advocate here, I don't think Jones should be in the 23.

.ak

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Have to say that I really don't understand calls to change the centre pairing. Henshaw has probably been the best back in the first 3 matches while Payne has been solid and was the best back on Saturday.

I don't like them as a combo, I don't think Payne has the vision currently to be a quality 13. However, I do hope we stick with them. We'll never develop as a team otherwise.

Personally though I'd love in the future for someone like McCloskey to step up as a 12 and move Henshaw to 13.

.ak

Quint2010 wrote: »

Dont think Jones will out Kearney. Zebo maybe but not Kearney. I would prefer to see the centre partnership changed up.

Yeah I was implying maybe he'd replace Zebo.

Berticus

Just because...

Italy 6 41 Wales. +35

Scotland 9 24 Ireland. +15

England 25 15 France. +10


This sequence would give Ireland the championship by 1 point!!

Have to say though, that I'm actually not that nervous about the Welsh result, I think they will win well but still come up short, being outdone by either Ireland or England. And then unless we beat Scotland well, England will take care of things. But set England a target of having to beat France by 12+points, I think might (just) do it!

captbarnacles

Curious what others think especially Munster fans who'd know who is faster...


At one stage of the 32 phase attack Zebo gets the ball near the touchline with a little bit of space and turns back inside, would Earls have the speed to go down the line and score?

molloyjh

Berticus wrote: »

Just because...

Italy 6 41 Wales. +35

Scotland 9 24 Ireland. +15

England 25 15 France. +10


This sequence would give Ireland the championship by 1 point!!

Have to say though, that I'm actually not that nervous about the Welsh result, I think they will win well but still come up short, being outdone by either Ireland or England. And then unless we beat Scotland well, England will take care of things. But set England a target of having to beat France by 12+points, I think might (just) do it!

I'd take that, even if it would mean near certain heart failure at various points across the entire day......

.ak

Berticus wrote: »

Just because...

Italy 6 41 Wales. +35

Scotland 9 24 Ireland. +15

England 25 15 France. +10


This sequence would give Ireland the championship by 1 point!!

Have to say though, that I'm actually not that nervous about the Welsh result, I think they will win well but still come up short, being outdone by either Ireland or England. And then unless we beat Scotland well, England will take care of things. But set England a target of having to beat France by 12+points, I think might (just) do it!

Ugh that makes me feel ill... mostly because I can't see us putting that sort of score on in Murrayfield. I'm more hoping France make it a closer game.

I'll have no hair left come Saturday evening.

.ak

captbarnacles wrote: »

Curious what others think especially Munster fans who'd know who is faster...


At one stage of the 32 phase attack Zebo gets the ball near the touchline with a little bit of space and turns back inside, would Earls have the speed to go down the line and score?

Zebo is apparently the fastest player in Ireland, and we saw Earls being a bit snookered for pace with the try line infront of him a few weeks ago, so I would say Earls wouldn't have made a difference.

Anyway it was paramount we kept possession there, cutting back in for a relatively light winger was the right call.

jm08

molloyjh wrote: »

Jones has offered us a change-up????? He came on with 9 minutes to go against England because of Paynes concussion and came on for 12 minutes for Bowe when the game was won and we did nothing of note while he was on. He didn't make it onto the field against either France or Wales. And against England his presence forced us to play Bowe at 13 which is less than ideal in fairness.

I love Joe as a coach, but I'm still going to have to call BS on this. Mainly because, well, it's complete BS. Jones has been the wrong call for the 23 shirt and I was happy to leave that go to an extent given how we were doing. But we need a good win this weekend and that means we need someone on the bench who can really add something to the back line. That simply is not Jones. End of story.

If you come to that conclusion then, the reason Felix is on the bench is because Schmdit doesn't rate Luke (who seems to be next in line as he is usually the travelling sub).

jm08

.ak wrote: »

Zebo is apparently the fastest player in Ireland, and we saw Earls being a bit snookered for pace with the try line infront of him a few weeks ago, so I would say Earls wouldn't have made a difference.

Anyway it was paramount we kept possession there, cutting back in for a relatively light winger was the right call.

From what I can see, safety first is encouraged. Are they terrified of making a mistake (and the video session on Monday)?

Zebo has changed as a player over the last year.

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

From what I can see, safety first is encouraged. Are they terrified of making a mistake (and the video session on Monday)?

Zebo has changed as a player over the last year.

Well I'd be happier with him cutting back in to secure possession but perhaps stiffling some momentum than getting bundled into touch. It was the right call, I doubt he was terrified. It's a cardinal sin to go into touch as a winger.

thomond2006

I think Ireland will have to go for tries from the off. Ireland won't march up the field easily and Scotland will probably have a lot of possession and frustrate us.

.ak

thomond2006 wrote: »

I think Ireland will have to go for tries from the off. Ireland won't march up the field easily and Scotland will probably have a lot of possession and frustrate us.

I think we'll need to take our points and break them down first. We need to win the game first.

thomond2006

.ak wrote: »

I think we'll need to take our points and break them down first. We need to win the game first.

I don't think we'll have enough opportunities to do that. I fear Ireland taking points and then not getting back down the field enough to turn the screw.

shuffol

jm08 wrote: »

From what I can see, safety first is encouraged. Are they terrified of making a mistake (and the video session on Monday)?

Zebo has changed as a player over the last year.

Yes. for the better, perhaps he'd have danced down the touchline and scored against Zebre in the pro 12 but not in a game like Saturdays. It's not like we're talking about Julian Savea. Zebo is a decent attacking winger at test level, it's his footballing ability that's his real asset.

BBDBB

thomond2006 wrote: »

I think Ireland will have to go for tries from the off. Ireland won't march up the field easily and Scotland will probably have a lot of possession and frustrate us.

I cant see that being the plan, we have to earn the right to cut loose, I think we have the fitness levels to do that for the first hour and then push on to open them up late on

Berticus

.ak wrote: »

I think we'll need to take our points and break them down first. We need to win the game first.

Agreed. We would feel like right mugs if France beat England but we had failed to beat Scotland! By simply kicking penalties all day, we could rack up quite a points margin... 5 penalties would be +15 and might just do it!!!

.ak

Berticus wrote: »

Agreed. We would feel like right mugs if France beat England but we had failed to beat Scotland! By simply kicking penalties all day, we could rack up quite a points margin... 5 penalties would be +15 and might just do it!!!

Aye, that's what I'd like to see. England tried running everything against them and whilst they were unlucky not to score a few more tries it goes to show how good the Scotland backs are in terms of work rate. I'd rather their centres ahead of ours and Hogg on his day could be the finest player on the pitch. We'd be mad to try and run every loose ball.

Strangle them until we're ahead by two scores and then strangle them some more, see how they react, they might start to loosen up in order to score a few tries themselves which would suit us.

leakyboots

.ak wrote: »

Zebo is apparently the fastest player in Ireland, and we saw Earls being a bit snookered for pace with the try line infront of him a few weeks ago, so I would say Earls wouldn't have made a difference.

Anyway it was paramount we kept possession there, cutting back in for a relatively light winger was the right call.

No way is Zebo faster than Earls, certainly not from a standing start. Earls acceleration is way more explosive

.ak

thomond2006 wrote: »

I don't think we'll have enough opportunities to do that. I fear Ireland taking points and then not getting back down the field enough to turn the screw.

If we could get into the Welsh 22 with relative ease whilst playing poorly we'll get into their 22 easily enough. It's all about discipline and hopefully earning a few kickables.

.ak

leakyboots wrote: »

No way is Zebo faster than Earls, certainly not from a standing start. Earls acceleration is way more explosive

As a centre Earls should be but, but then I'd say Cave has more explosive speed than Zebo too. Over the 100m Zebo is the fastest in Ireland however.

Mahatma Geansai

.ak wrote: »

As a centre Earls should be but, but then I'd say Cave has more explosive speed than Zebo too. Over the 100m Zebo is the fastest in Ireland however.

Ah now, don't take the piss altogether. Explosive, pace, and acceleration are three terms that can't be used to describe Cave.

.ak

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Ah now, don't take the piss altogether. Explosive, pace, and acceleration are three terms that can't be used to describe Cave.

I hear that all the time, but he has it. People like to ride Cave because he doesn't have top end pace, and that may be true, but you don't require it to be a centre, you require explosive pace off phase ball, which he has. If you look at him objectively you'll see it.

All of Darce, Earls, Cave and Henshaw are more explosive over 10m than Zebo. They wouldn't be centres otherwise.

.ak

thomond2006 wrote: »

I don't think we'll have enough opportunities to do that. I fear Ireland taking points and then not getting back down the field enough to turn the screw.

Like, I want the Scottish fans at the end of the game to be the kid below, otherwise we can kiss our chances of retaining the title goodbye.

captbarnacles

If we can force Scotland to make anywhere near the number of tackles Wales made I think we'll win by 20+. Wales and Ireland are the best conditioned teams in the championship so Wales could deal with it. Also, it's hard to think Sexton will play that badly again.

jm08

shuffol wrote: »

Yes. for the better, perhaps he'd have danced down the touchline and scored against Zebre in the pro 12 but not in a game like Saturdays. It's not like we're talking about Julian Savea. Zebo is a decent attacking winger at test level, it's his footballing ability that's his real asset.

He has scored against Wales & Australia, not to mention Clermont, Toulon and a hattrick against Northampton, not just the Zebres of this world.

His try scoring at club level is poor this year though - I prefer him when he is scoring tries.

accidentprone1

jm08 wrote: »

He has scored against Wales & Australia, not to mention Clermont, Toulon and a hattrick against Northampton, not just the Zebres of this world.

His try scoring at club level is poor this year though - I prefer him when he is scoring tries.

In fairness, the try against Australia was a catch and score from a Sexton kick, not one where he burned a defender on the outside. His try against Wales was a basic finish from a BOD freak pass.

He has never (as far as I recall) scored an international try by burning a player on the outside.

Waiting for my dodgy memory to be exposed!

molloyjh

We need to use our kicking game to get ourselves into the right areas of the park. Then we can look to do what we did against Wales. With a little bit more accuracy we'll be able to break Scotland down. They won't be able to match the Welsh defensive effort.

Also we absolutely should not be looking to play free flowing rugby at all. England did that and what I took from that game was that the Scottish scramble defence is pretty good and given some space their backs can hurt any side. We can't give them a way into the game and by playing openly like that we'll do exactly that. Get the ball into their half and win a few turnovers and/or penalties and build the pressure steadily from there. We need to try and muscle over for a try in the first half and look to bring in Reddan on 50/60 minutes to go after another couple. That's why I'd like someone like Fitz or Earls on the bench too. Introduce them at the same time as Reddan against a tiring Scottish side and we could put a good few points on them in the final 20 minutes.

sydthebeat

we need a functioning line out of we're to have any chance.

Rory cannot have another off day, it limits the way we play completely. penalties on half way should be kicked to the corners and i think we certainly have a better mauling game than scotland.

My worry would be about their broken field play, so i dont expect we're going to start off loading out of tackles next saturday. Ruck rinse repeat....

SaveOurLyric

.ak wrote: »

I think we'll need to take our points and break them down first. We need to win the game first.

Indeed. You approach every game with your best strategy to win first. Our more intensive kick-chase strategy has the potential to be very effective against Scotland. Their backs are not as big and as good fielders as Wales, so bomb them. Nor will their pack hold out with 100 tackles in their own 22 for the concession of only 1 try. So get the penalties, maybe a try or two and win the game. The Scots will only be keen to see the end of the game and the season at that point, then gamble a bit to dun zome more points, but only in the last 10 or 15 minutes. There is no point risking not winning the game at all - its still even possible the xhampionship could be handed to us.

timaru89

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

There is no point risking not winning the game at all - its still even possible the championship could be handed to us.

Exactly, make sure we get our fourth win first of all before considering points difference. If we kick our penalties early on, building a lead just as we did in the first 3 wins, we should win by 10+. France could yet beat England so let's not play to Scottish strengths by throwing it around too early.

total former

TBH I hope Wales run up a cricket score against Italy and set us some sort of a target to get us playing some rugby.

I cannot see England slipping up in Twickenham against this French team; just winning against Scotland is not going to be enough.

stephen_n

I'd imagine Joe will stick to script, given what Italy did to Scotland's lineout, I'd imagine we will see a lot of our Maul in this game, maybe not pretty but I'd expect it to yield a few tries, that is of course if we can hit our jumpers.