I suspect employee abused sick leave.

LegacyUser

Last summer, one of the employees under my supervision (we work in retail and and annual leave requests strictly have to revolve around certain months of year) requested 2 and a half weeks off to go to Australia in mid-February. I told her I couldnt approve that much as we have a massive account active all of February and we need all hands on deck, she knew this as she is there 6 years now and is well aware of our busy times. She said how about 2 weeks as an exception and I asked the manager of the store for his approval and he said yes but only as a once off.

As you can probably guess, she took her 2 weeks and then another week "sick", so she was off for 3 weeks in total. When she came back I invited her for a back to work following sickness interview as in standard for our company. When I asked her for a cert to back up her "migraine" complaint, she said that she was so sick that she didnt make it to the doctors and had nothing to show me, I asked her did she not ring a CareDoc and she got very defensive with me, raising her voice saying "I didnt even think of that, why are you getting on to me so much", I reminded her that sick pay was only if certain conditions are met and she just shrugged and said "Take it out of my holidays".

Can I bring a disciplinary case against her for this? Im unsure as I have never faced this situation before. Im pretty sure the boss would back me up but I feel as if all trust is lost now, anyone got any advice?

Nody

You can't take a disciplinary on the basis you think she's lying; what you should have done is to request her to see a doctor of your choice on day 1 (it's usually in most company policies). Secondly you can put an extra eye on everything she does to ensure any other breaches are recorded and obviously cut off anything she had gotten away with previous (i.e. shift swaps, if she goes sick call her every day and have her see a company doctor etc.).

LegacyUser

Thanks for the reply Nody. On your point that if she is sick, have her visit a company doctor of you choice, I surely cannot insist on that if she is calling in sick from home? Do you mean that i should have sent her to company doctor on the day of her return? You see, when she left a message saying she was sick, she didnt actually mention that she had no sick cert (yet). Maybe i should have rang her that day to remind her of that rule..

davo10

So she is just back to work? The answer to your question depends on her contract of employment. If it states that a cert is required after three days out then yes you can, she was absent without leave. The excuse that she was "too sick" to get a cert does not cut muster and is likely a breach of the terms of her contract. Many companies have a clause in the contract stating they will not accept sick leave immediately after annual leave. If you do not deal with this, it sets a precedent that means other employees can do the same thing and point to your inaction with this employee as an example of company policy. You should ask your superiors for direction on this.

uck51js9zml2yt

You need to bring your concerns to HR and get their guidance on this.

While you can suspect she was lying, you cant prove it and cant accuse her.
You can make life difficult and go by the book in future.

If she is out sick you cannot as suggested phone her every day. Its harassment.

I had a staff member who was out for over a year due to an traffic accident. I sent him to our consultant every few months to confirm that he couldn't drive again.
When redundancies came around he tried to come back to work. I duly sent him off to the doctor who confirmed he couldn't drive again. Needless to say he is still employed by the company on sick leave and never got to avail of a nice redundancy package.

davo10

It really doesn't matter whether she was actually sick or not. What matters is whether her leave was required to be certified. If it is and she has no cert then she was awol. That is a disciplinary matter.

LegacyUser

Our sick leave rules means after day 3 you need a cert so technically she was awol for 2 days, then again people not being able to make it to the doctors due to nobody being able to give them a lift/mind kids etc must be fairly common? She is back now 3 weeks and I havent really said anything as I wasnt sure I had a case so I guess if such a situation occurs in the future I can learn from this. As i said my boss and HR would be supportive but I might have missed the boat for any action to be taken. The worst thing for me is the complete breakdown of trust and up to now I could always take her word as gospel. As another poster said, you cannot accuse her of lying but basically that IS what I think happened, right or wrong..

Mrs OBumble

Have you spoken to HR about this? If you didn't raise it with them at the time, you are possibly putting your own job in jeopardy.

Not being able to get a doctor's cert is BS: if someone is so sick that they need more than 3 days off, then they are so sick that they need to see a doctor, no excuses accepted.

Probably you have missed the boat this time around. But you should manage her strictly by the book from now on.

Uncle Ben

If the 'alleged offender' had of got the sick cert from a compliant gp during their leave they could have got another couple of weeks holidays!!

skallywag

I think that you have now left it too late OP. Any particular reason why you wish to act on this now rather than back then?

It's a very difficult topic to deal with in any case, i.e. an employee can anyway waltz into a doctor's office and pretty easily put on a good enough performance as to get signed off sick for a week, etc.

In the case that you describe yourself I would also be fully convinced that this employee was pulling a fast one. Any conscientious employee would go out of their way to provide a sick-cert in such a circumstance, considering the inevitable suspicion.

LynnGrace

I agree with those saying consult with HR, and your own manager on this. Our company policy is very clear on when a doctor's cert is required, and there is no way that someone could be off on sick leave for a week, without producing one.
Saying she was too ill to attend a doctor, I'm afraid, sounds like complete BS.
Re company doctor, this is something usually covered by policy also, as to when an employee would be asked to attend. I'd say if you let this pass, it will lead to further problems down the line, with this employee, or with others if they see her getting away with it.

dixiefly

I am not an expert on employment law so please noone jump down my throat for this.

If she still booked the two and a half weeks as originally requested then it was a big two fingers to you and assumed that you wold accept her sick excuse.
If she is genuine she should be able to show you her flight details or passport stamp or some details proving that she just went for two weeks. If she is not genuine she probably wont show you it.

If it was me I would ask her for evidence that she just booked her flights based on the time she had off. If she has nothing to hide then I reckon that she wouldn't mind showing the details to you. If it was me and I knew how much my employer's wanted me back then I would be very embarrassed looking for sick time off.

gandalf

You should probably consult with HR and with their guidance progress it.

Did she go to Australia anyway, the chances are that she booked the length of time that she originally intended to go and thought the sick leave excuse would work. If she was away I'd ask her to prove the length of holiday away with ticket receipts or the passport with stamps as suggested above. Check this with HR first though.

It does have to be addressed because if she talks to other staff members they too could try and use the same method to get around holiday policy.

Hollister11

Don't mean to hijack the thread just a quick question. Why are you always asked for a sick very if your sick. That's going to cost you €55, instead of your emoter saying grand see you in a few days

snickerpuss

To be honest, if she really had an awful migraine going to the doctor would do nothing. You often just need 3 days in a dark room. They're horrible things. Getting to the doctor and queuing would be torture with a serious migraine (assuming that's what she really had)

billie1b

The company has no right to ask her for tickets/passport stamps or any other form of proof how long her holiday lasted. Only if she had an accident in the work place can the company request her to see a doctor straight away, if its general sickness the company can only request a GP referral after a minimum of 3 months (open to correction on this) as its only then that you can start to be declared as lobg term sick.

davo10

Hollister11 wrote: »

Don't mean to hijack the thread just a quick question. Why are you always asked for a sick very if your sick. That's going to cost you €55, instead of your emoter saying grand see you in a few days

Certification. It proves to your employer that you are infact sick as opposed to taking a few days holidays.

davo10

billie1b wrote: »

The company has no right to ask her for tickets/passport stamps or any other form of proof how long her holiday lasted. Only if she had an accident in the work place can the company request her to see a doctor straight away, if its general sickness the company can only request a GP referral after a minimum of 3 months (open to correction on this) as its only then that you can start to be declared as lobg term sick.

again, the circumstances of the absence are not important, most if not all contracts require a med cert after 3 days out, if she doesn't have one she was awol for a week, that is the disciplinary matter. It could be brought up at a DH that it was a remarkable coincidence that this period of absence corresponded with a period she unsuccessfully applied for leave for and if she was able to produce booking confirmation it would go a long way to you believing that she was in fact ill. Leave the ball in her court to show that it was not an extended holiday and she was ill.

Mrs OBumble

billie1b wrote: »

Only if she had an accident in the work place can the company request her to see a doctor straight away, if its general sickness the company can only request a GP referral after a minimum of 3 months (open to correction on this) as its only then that you can start to be declared as lobg term sick.

I don't believe that any of this is correct in general.

It may be in some specific companies, if that is the company policy.

But I don't think it applies widely.

gleesonger

Have a meeting with HR and your manager, get the companies backing on everything. Read company policy. Speak to the company lawyer. Let the employee know you are discussing the matter internally. Treat her respectfully and bear in mind she could be telling the truth.

mcko

You need to bring your concerns to HR and get their guidance on this.

While you can suspect she was lying, you cant prove it and cant accuse her.
You can make life difficult and go by the book in future.

If she is out sick you cannot as suggested phone her every day. Its harassment.

I had a staff member who was out for over a year due to an traffic accident. I sent him to our consultant every few months to confirm that he couldn't drive again.
When redundancies came around he tried to come back to work. I duly sent him off to the doctor who confirmed he couldn't drive again. Needless to say he is still employed by the company on sick leave and never got to avail of a nice redundancy package.

lazeedaisy

It's very simple,

You don't pay her for the whole week, if a cert is not forthcoming, the initial 3 days are also not paid.

All you can do is warn her she will not get paid for the week, get her to sign sick policy, saying she must produce a cert. This s to let her know it's her responsibility to produce cert next time.

It's not disciplinary, you have to take her word for it, but you can refuse to pay for the week. don't even attempt to go there.

That's what the company I worked for for ten years did.

The first 3 days are not paid if no cert was issued.

We were not allowed go sick from annual leave, must show up and be sent home, for this particular reason.

iPhone.

lazeedaisy wrote: »

We were not allowed go sick from annual leave, must show up and be sent home, for this particular reason.

How does that work if you are incapacitated by illness? Just curious.

Queen-Mise

I'm going against everyone here.

She asked for 2 1/2 weeks holidays so she can go to Australia. From the information given she has been a model employee for the past 6 years. And she was refused the request. Going to Australia for most people is a once in a lifetime holiday.

I think she was right to take the sick leave, as she was absolutely backed into a corner. Your job is a job, not your life and shouldn't run your life.
Although she did screw herself over in not having a cert. The most you can really do I'd imagine is a strike on record for not having cert, and secondly not pay for week.

For your benefit, I would use the policies of the company. Tell HR what happened, and ask their advice (don't mention the Oz bit), tell them that she went straight from 2 weeks holiday onto sick leave.

Although I think your company was mean-spirited not giving the time off, so really I think you should let it go.

Nody

Queen-Mise wrote: »

Although I think your company was mean-spirited not giving the time off, so really I think you should let it go.

Sorry but I see it the other way around; the employee knew that February was normally a no holiday month for everyone but OP got them an exception to that rule and the employee then pissed all over OP by abusing it further.

Mrs OBumble

Queen-Mise wrote: »

I think she was right to take the sick leave, as she was absolutely backed into a corner. Your job is a job, not your life and shouldn't run your life.
Although she did screw herself over in not having a cert. ...

Although I think your company was mean-spirited not giving the time off, so really I think you should let it go.

I tend to agree with the mean spirit bit: The difference was 2-3 extra days (which presumably would have been spent getting over the jetlag on 2 round-the-world trips in a fortnight). If the employee was highly specialised and hard to cover for (surgeon etc) then I might be sympathetic - but this is retail, not rocket science. If you had a temp to cover for 2 weeks, you could have them for 2.5 weeks.

But - the employee's response was absolutely wrong. She should have offered to resign if the extra leave wasn't available. This would have been more honest all around. What the OP has now is a situation where the employee has basically lost the trust of her employer. Messy all round.

LegacyUser

Thanks for the replies, people. I suppose the reason I sat on my laurels and left the issue go was I just wasnt that familiar with the law in this regard plus I was a bit taken aback by her response to our interview, where she did get upset and basically accused me of pressing her too hard. Now I was never the best of friends with this worker but I respected her work and its also worthwhile to say she never has an issue with absenteeism and has only been sick a handful of times in 6 years. To hear her accuse me of getting heavy handed on the issue (she stormed out of the meeting and told me to "take it out of my holidays if it really matters") shocked me as I was only following procedure.

I have since told her Im not in a position to let her take her "sick" week as holidays and I spoke to my boss and HR for advice. HR just confirmed the rules and it doesnt actually state we dont accept sick leave after annual leave but since she doesnt have a cert its not really sick leave. They advised I have an informal chat with her reminding her of the rules of sick leave. I guess the main thing is though that i have lost all trust in her. I will have to just accept that and move on for the future, I dont want to see her sacked for this but its a lesson for me as well to enforce the policies.

lazeedaisy

iPhone. wrote: »

How does that work if you are incapacitated by illness? Just curious.

The procedure was written for cases like this. If you were in hospital, that was the only way you got paid. People showed up on crutches from various accidents, but it did away with people abusing the system.

Sick pay costs businesses a horrendous amount, and you need to be ahead of people, have the right prcesses in place, because the law protects them when you don't.

lazeedaisy

Whatcanido? wrote: »

Thanks for the replies, people. I suppose the reason I sat on my laurels and left the issue go was I just wasnt that familiar with the law in this regard plus I was a bit taken aback by her response to our interview, where she did get upset and basically accused me of pressing her too hard. Now I was never the best of friends with this worker but I respected her work and its also worthwhile to say she never has an issue with absenteeism and has only been sick a handful of times in 6 years. To hear her accuse me of getting heavy handed on the issue (she stormed out of the meeting and told me to "take it out of my holidays if it really matters") shocked me as I was only following procedure.

I have since told her Im not in a position to let her take her "sick" week as holidays and I spoke to my boss and HR for advice. HR just confirmed the rules and it doesnt actually state we dont accept sick leave after annual leave but since she doesnt have a cert its not really sick leave. They advised I have an informal chat with her reminding her of the rules of sick leave. I guess the main thing is though that i have lost all trust in her. I will have to just accept that and move on for the future, I dont want to see her sacked for this but its a lesson for me as well to enforce the policies.

I was a procedures and policy writer for years. You have to tie everything down, we had policy overkill, but that's how life is now unfortunately. But a bad policy or procedure is just not worth the effort.

It's a shame things have changed between you, but people can and will push as far as they can go.

Tobyglen

Queen-Mise wrote: »

I'm going against everyone here.

She asked for 2 1/2 weeks holidays so she can go to Australia. From the information given she has been a model employee for the past 6 years. And she was refused the request. Going to Australia for most people is a once in a lifetime holiday.

I think she was right to take the sick leave, as she was absolutely backed into a corner. Your job is a job, not your life and shouldn't run your life.
Although she did screw herself over in not having a cert. The most you can really do I'd imagine is a strike on record for not having cert, and secondly not pay for week.

For your benefit, I would use the policies of the company. Tell HR what happened, and ask their advice (don't mention the Oz bit), tell them that she went straight from 2 weeks holiday onto sick leave.

Although I think your company was mean-spirited not giving the time off, so really I think you should let it go.

Agreed, if she has been a model employee for 6 years then I think she deserves a bit more respect. Better management would have seen her needs and got her the extra days off, now they have a disgruntled employee and the relationship is ruined. 6 years of service deserves that. What's so important in retail that she couldn't have got 2/3 extra days off?

Uncle Ben

lazeedaisy wrote: »

The procedure was written for cases like this. If you were in hospital, that was the only way you got paid. People showed up on crutches from various accidents, but it did away with people abusing the system.

Sick pay costs businesses a horrendous amount, and you need to be ahead of people, have the right prcesses in place, because the law protects them when you don't.

Thats some shower you're working for. Expecting people to show up on crutches following an accident.