Kendrick Lamar - To Pimp A Butterfly

mufcboy1999

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

It Was Written is as good as Illmatic in my opinion. It's also my favourite album of his. Doesn't get near enough love. The creativity on some of the tracks is awesome, the production was very nice considering it was a Mafioso album. The Message is arguably his best track and with tracks like I Gave You Power, If I Ruled the World Take It In Blood, Black Girl Lost are timeless and some of the best tracks of that era. Great big name features too.

The Lost Tapes is obviously very good but I wouldn't count it as it's a compilation album really and had loads of tracks from the original I Am before leaking ruined it. I Am...the version that was printed was very poor besides some great individual tracks but the "original" I Am is a great great album too.

Stillmatic is also an incredible album, I rate it at the same level as Jigga's Blueprint...so you're talking potential classic. God's Son was very very nice as well. People say Nas is inconsistent due to the fact he never reached the heights of Illmatic but I beg to differ...he has. His later albums have been better than most rapper's later albums. Compare Distant Relatives to Blueprint 3 and MCHG from Jigga and Nas' are better lyrically and musically...granted Jay Z wants to appeal to radios more but even the more "Lyrical" tracks, Nas is still better. I am a big fan of Nas, I rate him the 2nd best MC of all time but I am also one if his biggest critics. Regardless he has one of the best collections of hip hop history.

Illmatic is a 5/5, no arguments. It Was Written and The Lost Tapes are 4.5/5 if not more. Stillmatic a very easy 4/5....so is God's Son and Distant Relatives. Life Is Good is not too far off a 4/5. That's 7 super good albums. I wouldn't rate any of Kendricks past a 4...not even a 4 tbh.

There's no point in me disputing ratings of his albums with you, at the end of the day its each to there own, everyone has their own taste.

I do agree on gods son though, I actually think that's his best piece of work since illmatic, top album, should have mentioned it. The rest I'm not mad about bar distant relatives and life is good as I've already mentioned.

On jay z, Bp3 was good and nothing more and his last album was more of the same, just good but both very forgettable.

Lastly I'd honestly put section 80 above or on par with any of the so called classic albums that have been released the last 10 years, its a modern hip hop masterpiece, storytelling at its best. You really wouldn't give section 80 a 4? That's harsh.

callaway92

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

Tbh most of nas's albums bar the obvious illmatic have been average. He's always for me had way too much filler on them, the usual 2 or 3 quality songs followed by mediocre content.

I'd agree his last album life is good and distant relatives are arguably his closest efforts to illmatic, the lost tapes is worth a mention too, but for the best part his albums as a whole are not great for me.

I think a similar topic was brought up a few years back here, where a lot of people had similar opinions of nas's albums. I'm not taking anything away from his an artist as he's one of my favorites but he hasn't released enough better than good albums either imo.

God's Son is probably his best album other than Illmatic imo.

Kylo Ren

After the first listen...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3sOuEv0E2I

And just like with GKMC, your first listen is the worst listen.

mufcboy1999

callaway92 wrote: »

God's Son is probably his best album other than Illmatic imo.

ye it just might well be, followed by distant relatives/life is good for me.

Mr.Nice Guy

phatkev wrote: »

Ive fallen in love with TPAB form start to finish. U(darkest track on the album, must have been pretty tough to write) and Hood Politics(the Killer Mike line is gold) are stand outs to me at the moment. The George Clinton and Thundercat apperance on Wesley's theory are class too

I loved that myself. :cool:

As regards TPAB, I think it's a great album. I'll need to listen to it a few more times to truly appreciate it.

El Canelo

Is there a different beat for King Kunta, maybe I'm deaf but spotify and the cd sound different to me, prefer spotify.

Boom_Bap

I've finally gotten around to given the album a listen. Bear in mind, I was running in the jaysusin heat yesterday while listening and was trying to concentrate on not dying of heat stroke and dehydration while listening.

After the first listen, I wasn't that impressed with Kendrick. I love the funkyness of the album, there is one song towards the end where it's possibly the best beat I've heard in years. But my initial reaction is that Kendrick isn't using it right. I was way more impressed by the production on the album.

But, I put this down to the non conventional nature of what Kendrick is doing on the album, not straight rapping, but mixing up his usage of vocals. Maybe I wasn't concentrating enough on the lyrics either.

So I'll definitely be giving it another listen, I'll do so on the good cans as well, and while I'm stationary.

bigpoppa

big fan of kendrick I just think the album is somewhat deliberately inaccessible and squirrely (if you get me) I find it the same with most of J Cole and even recent Kanye.

We get they want to branch out and experiment and some tracks are great but sometimes we want a Money Trees with beats and flow and not some offkey jazz beat poet style material

just my two cents

jonneymendoza

off topic but for me illmatic is not a classic album as many people say it is.

It is quite an average album as a whole with none interesting beats and story telling.

The stuff Kendrick has put out is far better and Nas's later work is actually better then illmatic too.

For me Illmatic is one of his weaker albums imo.

Talib Fiasco

jonneymendoza wrote: »

off topic but for me illmatic is not a classic album as many people say it is.

It is quite an average album as a whole with none interesting beats and story telling.

The stuff Kendrick has put out is far better and Nas's later work is actually better then illmatic too.

For me Illmatic is one of his weaker albums imo.

I respect your opinion even though opinions can be ridiculously wrong. No interesting beats? Preemo, Q-tip, Pete Rock, Large Pro?? All dudes who're the finest producers of all time and gave Nas incredible beats, beats that are of the finest of that era and of any era. Storytelling?? NY State of Mind, Memory Lane and One Love are some of the best storytelling tracks of all time. This isn't debatable I'm afraid

jonneymendoza

check out his later albums like it was written, stillmatic, gods son and even his last album.

All better then illmatic imo.

The track called daughters on his last album is better then half the stuff from illmatic lyrically

Boom_Bap

illmatic is a stellar album.
I think the younger generation of hip hop fans who are playing catch up on the 90's rap probably go to it first but scratch thier heads about why it's treated in such high regard.
Comparitively, some of the heads from the older school scratch thier heads about why the likes of GKMC are being treated as classics.

Illmatic for the older heads has aged beautifully and will be timeless.

I personally have become alot more pragmatic in my older years (not that old yiz bastidz ) and I can see alot more albums that are hands down better than Illmatic start to finish. I commented on another thread how both of Edan's albums eclipse Illmatic.

My first listen to TPAB has not captured me the same way the first time I listened to Illmatic. But I'm completely aware that music has evolved and that I don't think an album like TPAB is to be understood the first time you listen to it. It's probably like an onion with the whole layers you peel through. Comparative to GKMC where the narrative was fairly obvious and not so much depth to it as I think there is on TPAB.

Talib Fiasco

I actually heard Stillmatic fully before Illmatic and was still blown away by Illmatic. Stillmatic would definitely appeal to a younger person most likely but Illmatic is just different. It's flawless and timeless as Boom Bap said. Interesting comment about Edan. Big fan of him. There's no artist out there like him. Beauty and the Beat is a straight classic. In terms of underground hip hop, it's in my top 5 along with stuff from J-Live, Acey and One Be Lo so he's in great company but I still don't know if I could rank it at Illmatic's level.

Boom_Bap

It Was Written is an excellent album as well.
I'm one of the oddballs that doesn't like The Lost Tapes, but I did fall out of love with Nas, well more a case of his terrible terrible selection when it came to beats.

In relation to To Pimp A Butterfly, what would ya'llz recommend as an ideal listening location? Somewhere with zero distraction?

Jezek

Boom_Bap wrote: »

It Was Written is an excellent album as well.
I'm one of the oddballs that doesn't like The Lost Tapes, but I did fall out of love with Nas, well more a case of his terrible terrible selection when it came to beats.

In relation to To Pimp A Butterfly, what would ya'llz recommend as an ideal listening location? Somewhere with zero distraction?

i just listened to it while walking places, listen all the way through, not too many distractions. I don't think it's as challenging or complicated album as people make it out to be. It's just maybe a few more layers than a Rick Ross album but really, it's not rocket science. I do enjoy walking /pottering around while listening as the music as its quite funky...

Muirshin Durkin

Boom_Bap wrote: »

In relation to To Pimp A Butterfly, what would ya'llz recommend as an ideal listening location? Somewhere with zero distraction?

a butterfly farm

mufcboy1999

Boom_Bap wrote: »

It Was Written is an excellent album as well.
I'm one of the oddballs that doesn't like The Lost Tapes, but I did fall out of love with Nas, well more a case of his terrible terrible selection when it came to beats.

In relation to To Pimp A Butterfly, what would ya'llz recommend as an ideal listening location? Somewhere with zero distraction?

I think that's something eminem shares in common with nas. Both terrible for beats but both massively talented emcees that more times or not the beats go unnoticed.

The car is usually my location of choice for listening to new music. I have two 3 hour trips at the beginning and end of each week so I love getting my hands on a new album for the journey. Just hop in the car and drive if you have no where to go :pac:, p.s a cup of coffee goes well with it, I think the caffeine hit makes the music sound better .

crybaby

Boom_Bap wrote: »

It Was Written is an excellent album as well.
I'm one of the oddballs that doesn't like The Lost Tapes, but I did fall out of love with Nas, well more a case of his terrible terrible selection when it came to beats.

In relation to To Pimp A Butterfly, what would ya'llz recommend as an ideal listening location? Somewhere with zero distraction?

I have had it in my headphones on the way to and from work now for a few weeks. By far the best hip-hop album in the last few years, absolutely outstanding piece of work. The album is in the lyrics, he is telling a story throughout the album I mean just listen to 'These Walls" or any of the tracks; everything serves a purpose on it.

Why are Nas, Kanye West, Jay-Z not making music like this? What are they so afraid of that they can't drop the bragging **** for an album and put down a bit of emotion and reflection for an entire album? Personally I think this album has Kanye especially running scared as all of the hype for his album has just disappeared and he is back in the studio now because he understands that rapping "I am GOD now pass me the crossaint" might not hold as much weight as it did a couple of years back.

Very happy to see someone like Kendrick Lamar emerge and hopefully lead hip-hop in a different direction or at least lend more credibility to the idea of making music that has substance.

Boom_Bap

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

I think that's something eminem shares in common with nas. Both terrible for beats but both massively talented emcees that more times or not the beats go unnoticed.

The car is usually my location of choice for listening to new music. I have two 3 hour trips at the beginning and end of each week so I love getting my hands on a new album for the journey. Just hop in the car and drive if you have no where to go :pac:, p.s a cup of coffee goes well with it, I think the caffeine hit makes the music sound better .

I do most of my listening in the car and in work. But work has too many distractions these days and its difficult to find time to absorb a full album. I've also taken to podcasts a bit as well.
And lately in the car I've been listening to old albums. I guess I'll just have to introduce TPAB to the rotations.

crybaby wrote: »

I have had it in my headphones on the way to and from work now for a few weeks. By far the best hip-hop album in the last few years, absolutely outstanding piece of work. The album is in the lyrics, he is telling a story throughout the album I mean just listen to 'These Walls" or any of the tracks; everything serves a purpose on it.

Why are Nas, Kanye West, Jay-Z not making music like this? What are they so afraid of that they can't drop the bragging **** for an album and put down a bit of emotion and reflection for an entire album? Personally I think this album has Kanye especially running scared as all of the hype for his album has just disappeared and he is back in the studio now because he understands that rapping "I am GOD now pass me the crossaint" might not hold as much weight as it did a couple of years back.

Very happy to see someone like Kendrick Lamar emerge and hopefully lead hip-hop in a different direction or at least lend more credibility to the idea of making music that has substance.

Kanye kind of has with 808's.

There have been a few albums from LA in recent years that have also been themed, the most notable being Thurz LA Riots album. There was also a female MC called L.A. that had a very riot LA fueled theme. So I'm sure that some inspiration has been taken from that by Kendrick.

If you also listen closely to the Makiaveli album, if you cut out all the slagging of other rappers and industry folk, there is somewhat of a blueprint there for TPAB.

The likes of Nas and Jay are from era's where albums where about singles, street songs and some vanity tracks. Kanye has had a running theme in his earlier albums, basically he compares the evoltion of each album to scholar life. He is on another level now about making musical masterpieces and being sonically brilliant, so he would be past the themed album path now.
and anyone that does it now is just going to be seen as biting Kendrick.
It also takes a certain level of intelligence to create album like Kendrick has, some wouldn't have such patience and dedication....or even label freedom.

floggg

pone2012 wrote: »

I think you need to go back and listen to illmatic again, then once you've done that listen to it again, and again, and one last time...then revisit that statement....

This is the unhealthy fan boy cult that's grown up around illmatic I was referring to. Because I dare to offer an opinion on illmatic which goes against the near universal worship of it as the greatest thing ever to happen to the world of music, the assumption is I haven't listened to it or understood it?

I've listened to illmatic hundreds of times, and know and love each of the songs individually and collectively.

It's just I don't believe that it tops all metrics against which an album can be judged.

As I said, I think TPAB and even GKMC easily trump it in terms of narrative and thematic cohesiveness - but thats because they are different, and more narrative and theme driven albums than illmatic ever tries to be.

illmatic has a cohesive sounds, vibe and feel - but its songs aren't interlinked in the same way as TPAB/GKMC, nor were they intended to be. There should be nothing controversial in saying therefore that TPAB/GKMC best it on those metrics.

I think there are albums with a lot more to say than illmatic, and which I enjoy mroe because of it. illmatic is a young man using his exemplarly lyrical abiltiies to share the sights and sounds of his neighbourhood and generation. Nas never really looks outside of Queensbridge or NYC on the album, or attempts to deconstruct the systems, thought processes or injustices of his neighbourhood or those within it - which is fine. Thats the album he wanted to make and he nailed it.

I personally enjoy albums where the emcee is willing to scratch below the surface about more, to tackle injustices or authority, to introspect or to take a theme or topic and to challenge and critique.

I think what you say can be as important as how you say it - and illmatic doesnt actually add any unique perspectives to the world.

So for example, I prefer Soul on Ice over illmatic because lyrically its on par (IMO), but Ras Kass exhibits that level of lyricism while also tackling some really deep **** - like religion (On earth as it is..), the history of racism and injustice against African Americans (Nature of the Threat), Ras Kass' personal history and transgressions (The Evil That Men Do) and even the delusional illumanti theories (ordo ab chao).

Even in terms of beats, I think there are many albums which I prefer for their beats and sonic cohesiveness - even of that period, I think The Chronic and AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted are better in that regard.

Now, none of that is to detract from illmatic or to say its anything less than a timeless classic - but I'm not going to Stan for it just because that's what hip-hop fans are expected to do.

And to pretend that it is the best album on all metrics is absurd - and not even Nas would argue it is. It achieves what it sets out to achieve in a near flawless fashion - but there are other albums which set out to do very different things, and illmatic can't compete with them in those areas when they nail it.

jonneymendoza

What a brilliant post

jigglypuffstuff

floggg wrote: »

This is the unhealthy fan boy cult that's grown up around illmatic I was referring to. Because I dare to offer an opinion on illmatic which goes against the near universal worship of it as the greatest thing ever to happen to the world of music, the assumption is I haven't listened to it or understood it?

I've listened to illmatic hundreds of times, and know and love each of the songs individually and collectively.

It's just I don't believe that it tops all metrics against which an album can be judged.

As I said, I think TPAB and even GKMC easily trump it in terms of narrative and thematic cohesiveness - but thats because they are different, and more narrative and theme driven albums than illmatic ever tries to be.

illmatic has a cohesive sounds, vibe and feel - but its songs aren't interlinked in the same way as TPAB/GKMC, nor were they intended to be. There should be nothing controversial in saying therefore that TPAB/GKMC best it on those metrics.

I think there are albums with a lot more to say than illmatic, and which I enjoy mroe because of it. illmatic is a young man using his exemplarly lyrical abiltiies to share the sights and sounds of his neighbourhood and generation. Nas never really looks outside of Queensbridge or NYC on the album, or attempts to deconstruct the systems, thought processes or injustices of his neighbourhood or those within it - which is fine. Thats the album he wanted to make and he nailed it.

I personally enjoy albums where the emcee is willing to scratch below the surface about more, to tackle injustices or authority, to introspect or to take a theme or topic and to challenge and critique.

I think what you say can be as important as how you say it - and illmatic doesnt actually add any unique perspectives to the world.

So for example, I prefer Soul on Ice over illmatic because lyrically its on par (IMO), but Ras Kass exhibits that level of lyricism while also tackling some really deep **** - like religion (On earth as it is..), the history of racism and injustice against African Americans (Nature of the Threat), Ras Kass' personal history and transgressions (The Evil That Men Do) and even the delusional illumanti theories (ordo ab chao).

Even in terms of beats, I think there are many albums which I prefer for their beats and sonic cohesiveness - even of that period, I think The Chronic and AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted are better in that regard.

Now, none of that is to detract from illmatic or to say its anything less than a timeless classic - but I'm not going to Stan for it just because that's what hip-hop fans are expected to do.

And to pretend that it is the best album on all metrics is absurd - and not even Nas would argue it is. It achieves what it sets out to achieve in a near flawless fashion - but there are other albums which set out to do very different things, and illmatic can't compete with them in those areas when they nail it.

Im not going to bother deconstructing that post as theres far to much in it but to take some points

The simplicity of the topics at hand were actually one of the points of illmatic imo, its simple yet complex at the same time, a paradox really

Secondly it is indeed a timeless classic, something that very few albums in hip hop come close to in terms of creative artisty. it is first and foremost a hip hop album, and as a hip hop album TPAB doesnt come close to it on any level whatsoever

Nobody said it was the best album on all metrics, but as a hip hop album illmatic stands way over this.

This neo hippy vibe thats recently hit hip hop will pass too, its happened countless times. dirty south, trap, westcoast and so forth..they all fell by the wayside and although there have been a few standout moments....again they dont compete on any level with illmatic....

kendrick lamar is a good artist, but overrated...especially with people calling this an "instant classic"

PressRun

I don't understand why people are so quick to rubbish the Illmatic comparisons. TPAB and Illmatic do a lot of the same things, that is they both pay homage to a long black musical tradition while also speaking to something bigger and more urgent about their times. Illmatic sheds light on something that was very real about the New York Nas grew up in, one that had been ghettoized after the white flight to the suburbs and where young people like him ended up either dead or in prison.

TPAB reflects a post-Obama America where a generation of young men like Lamar have grown up being told that the kind of institutionalized racism that informed the likes of Illmatic and Straight Outta Compton is a thing of the past, and yet that notion is constantly in conflict with the realities of their lives as young black people in the US.

Both albums are an ambitious commentary on the societies that gave rise to them while also staying true to the musical heritage that paved the way for them. They are seeking to do very similar things.

Lamar is not overrated. Not in the least. He's making the kind of statements with his music that mainstream hip-hop should be making, especially given the times we're living in. His work is a reminder of just how important a platform hip-hop really can be for communities.

Illmatic is absolutely a classic and one of the greatest albums of all time in any genre, but it's not untouchable, and nor should it ever be considered to be. That attitude sucks out all the ambition from music. Nothing should ever be considered out of reach.

Anyways, I wonder how many proclaiming Illmatic to be the gold standard would have jumped on the 'instant classic' bandwagon when it was first released? I wonder how many who downplayed the significance of TPAB will be going back on their word 20 years from now?

floggg

pone2012 wrote: »

Im not going to bother deconstructing that post as theres far to much in it but to take some points

The simplicity of the topics at hand were actually one of the points of illmatic imo, its simple yet complex at the same time, a paradox really

Secondly it is indeed a timeless classic, something that very few albums in hip hop come close to in terms of creative artisty. it is first and foremost a hip hop album, and as a hip hop album TPAB doesnt come close to it on any level whatsoever

Nobody said it was the best album on all metrics, but as a hip hop album illmatic stands way over this.

This neo hippy vibe thats recently hit hip hop will pass too, its happened countless times. dirty south, trap, westcoast and so forth..they all fell by the wayside and although there have been a few standout moments....again they dont compete on any level with illmatic....

kendrick lamar is a good artist, but overrated...especially with people calling this an "instant classic"

I think your post shows two things.

1. You clearly didn't read my original posts that you chose to respond condescendingly in any detail - which may explain why you prefer the relative "simplicity" of illmatic. Less need to actually try and comprehend.

2. Your response was just the fan boy over reaction I suspected - since you haven't actually been able to disagree with much of anything I said about either album.

And I never said TPAB was a timeless classic - I specifally stated I was unsure of whether I would listen to it in 20 years.

But it can be considered a Classic in the way it implements and achieves the album concept in exactly the way intended. As a piece of narrative or exploration of a theme it is a classic example of how to do it and I'm sure in 20 years people discuss the best albums to ever analyse a theme or concept it will still be discussed as a gold standard album (amongst others).

As I've said, there are many ways to judge an album and how likely you are to listen to it in 10 years time isn't the only way to judge its quality.

I think in 10 years time in more likely to play Section.80 over either GKMC or TPAB but I still think that the concept of the latter two were executed so well that I would likely give them both a higher rating.*

But nuance and context clearly aren't something you are concerned with so I'm sure much of this is lost on you.

Also, music is nothing but opinions and there is no universal standard of quality. So the idea that illmatic can be definitely be judged as better than something like TPAB, which is an entirely different type of album, is absurd. Everybody is entitled to their opinions and just because you don't rate it's qualities doesn't mean others can't.

* I loved Section.80 when it was realised, but it was only when I went back to listen to it again last week that I appreciated just how great it was. I think arguments could also be made for calling it a classic too at this stage.

jonneymendoza

the way people praise illmatic, its as if that album trumps any album released by 2pac and biggie?

Like i said before, Illmatic is not even Nas's greatest album. i think "it was written" is.

Another classica album has to be Marshal mathers .

That album is a masterpiece and till this day, stands the test of time.

GKMC is doing the same as we speak.

floggg

jonneymendoza wrote: »

the way people praise illmatic, its as if that album trumps any album released by 2pac and biggie?

Like i said before, Illmatic is not even Nas's greatest album. i think "it was written" is.

Another classica album has to be Marshal mathers .

That album is a masterpiece and till this day, stands the test of time.

GKMC is doing the same as we speak.

Illmatic does trump anything by Biggie and 2Pac, at least in my book and in the book of many other hip-hop fans.

Ready to Die is the only album by either of them that I eould still listen to today.

Also, 2Pac is (IMO) the most over rated rapper of all time.

jonneymendoza

floggg wrote: »

Illmatic does trump anything by Biggie and 2Pac, at least in my book and in the book of many other hip-hop fans.

Ready to Die is the only album by either of them that I eould still listen to today.

Also, 2Pac is (IMO) the most over rated rapper of all time.

Lol 2pac overateed. I'm done

Boom_Bap

2Pac is over-rated. Definitely. I love a bit of 2Pac, I've been a fan since my brother arrived home one day with Strictly 4 My Niggaz on cassette and was drawn in from start to finish. We were even calling him Spac for a while, then we copped it was the guy from Juice which we got a bootleg copy of on VHS.
I picked up every album he released until The 7 Day Theory and played them all on repeat.
But yeah, he is not the greatest of rappers. Same delivery in every song, fairly simple rapping (some exceptions) and was very formulaic...but knew how to make a song.


Here is a review on GoldenPlec of the album:
https://www.goldenplec.com/album-reviews/kendrick-lamar-pimp-butterfly/

conor.hogan.2

It is not just about rapping though to half use a Kendrick quote, he rapped the same a lot but then again he released all his albums in 5 years.

His discophraphy is far beyond Eminems for example which was of a time, place and age but was technically better.

This album is still getting plays, but J Coles is getting more (two artists I did not like 3 years ago)

SeaDaily

jonneymendoza wrote: »

Lol 2pac overateed. I'm done

It's difficult for 2Pac to be anything other than over-rated due to the fact that he is widely regarded as the best rapper of all time by hip-hop heads and the general public a like. 2Pac is not the greatest rapper of all time imo, and is therefore over-rated.