Liffey quays cycle route: Detailed drawings online

Idbatterim

That gets confusing for passengers, sometimes the bus goes one way, sometimes the other

yeah I suppose, how long is the stretch of quay, where there is not enough space?

LXFlyer

Idbatterim wrote: »

at off peak times, why would the buses bother using the diverted bus lane? Surely they could just use the general traffic lane? the only purpose of a bus lane, is if it is going to be quicker than the general traffic lane...

Given that there is to be a bus stop on the diverted route that would be a bit tricky and utterly confusing - consistency is key when it comes to public transport.

The north quays are busy all day with traffic and the bus lane is needed all day. It's not a case of it only being needed at peak times.

Spanish Eyes

Once again, and I am sorry, but what is the problem with the cycleway going alongside the Luas on Benburb Street and beyond?

Is it a bigger problem than the buses or cars going there?

Can someome spell it out for me please?

I would like to hear from cyclists and PT users on this one.

I live on a bus route that goes down the quays. It is a great service. And being selfish of course, I do NOT want it to deteriorate.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

When did Dublin Bus say this and where can we read exactly what they said?

Report from the city council only summaries what Dublin Bus said but there's no reason to douth it: Report link at the bottom of the article: http://irishcycle.com/2015/06/04/two-way-liffey-cycle-route-option-gains-public-support/

Here's exactly what the report says in regards to Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann and the RPA:

Dublin Bus Submission

In their submission, Dublin Bus highlight the important role that buses play in the operation of Dublin’s public transport network and acknowledges the role cycling has to play in modal shift having grown into a popular, mainstream mode of transport in recent years. It states that scheme designs should seek to encourage modal shift away from private cars and not just to cycling but to public transport also.

The submission goes on to state that it does not support Option 4 in Section A or Option 2 in Section B as they offer little improvement over what is in place at present nor does it support Option 2 in Section A as it offers a disincentive to bus passengers.

The submission states that Options 1 and 3 of Section A can be made to work. Option 1 is relatively easy to implement while with some revisions Option 3 would offer a significant public realm improvement. It further states that there are issues in Section B at Eden Quay where there are a significant number of bus stops but that again, it can be made to work.

Bus Éireann Submission

Bus Éireanns submission states a clear preference for Option 1 of Section A as it has the least impact on Bus Éireann services on the North Quays and will offer the least potential for collisions between buses and cyclists.

The submission states that further detail is required on the “public transport corridor” that is proposed for Options 2 and 3 of Section A. These include clarifications on junction priority and traffic signal priority and whether there will be any additional running times associated with these options.

Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) Submission

In its submission, the RPA highlights the continuing issue with cyclists using the Luas tramlines between Parkgate Street and O’Connell Street in particular and welcomes the development of a safe, segregated cycle route on the quays away from the existing tramline.

The RPA considers the best option moving forward to be a two-way segregated facility on the North Quays as the one way building side option “will not result in cyclists transferring from the existing Luas line… and is therefore not preferable”

There are concerns over Options 2 and 3 however, which propose bus re-routing onto Benburb Street. The submission states that the “RPA would have significant concerns about the safety implications of this proposal” and that in relation to Option 3 specifically “the impact of the provision of a three lane road to the rear of the museum Luas stop is a significant concern to the RPA”.

hmmm wrote: »

You don't need a degree in planning to know this is not going to work, you need a degree in the bleedin' obvious - a long line of buses along a small street, all turning 90 degrees right onto a main traffic artery and then turning 90 degrees left again almost immediately onto another main traffic artery, through two sets of traffic lights that have to be perfectly synchronised. What a complete joke.

The route along the Luas is overall wider than the space on the quays -- so, it's not a small street in any meaningful way which affects buses. The planned space for buses along the Luas is more dedicated and does not include all of the left turning conflicts and bus stop conflicts which are aling the quays.

The outlined bus stop at Smithfield is longer, easier to pull into and has dedicated passing space.

The right turn onto Church Street is wide and into a new bus lane and the left turn from there to the quays is again into a bus lane. The bus lane on Church Street should fit 5 buses with space between them.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Once again, and I am sorry, but what is the problem with the cycleway going alongside the Luas on Benburb Street and beyond?

Is it a bigger problem than the buses or cars going there?

Can someome spell it out for me please?

A two-way cycle path would only really work along the quays for a number of reasons:

• The bus lane detour will still be used to for local access to a small number of locations, a two-way cycle path can't do the same thing and the tram tracks are not designed in this location to share with traffic. Even if that was not an issue...
• To keep the two-way route any way attractive as it goes from the Luas route to back along the quay wall you'd have to have a larger impact on other modes at key junctions.
• Pushing the two-way route further north than the quays would make it less attractive for westbound cycling flows which would usually use the
• The three reasons above are killers of the idea each on their own, but you also have...
• Sticking a route along the Luas will lead to more and not less people continuing along the Luas tracks from Church Street onwards.
• Many people would also continue to use the bus lane along the quays rather than the detour.

lucernarian

Dublin Bus' Tours and to some extent the Airlink service could actually benefit from a routing like Option 3.

cgcsb

dubscottie wrote: »

Seen the artists impressions of this.. Say someone was to have an incident mid quays and the nearest Ambulance was at/near Heuston how would it get to me? Down the cycle lanes?

the same way an ambulance currently get's places I suppose.

cdebru

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Once again, and I am sorry, but what is the problem with the cycleway going alongside the Luas on Benburb Street and beyond?

Is it a bigger problem than the buses or cars going there?

Can someome spell it out for me please?

I would like to hear from cyclists and PT users on this one.

I live on a bus route that goes down the quays. It is a great service. And being selfish of course, I do NOT want it to deteriorate.

To make a cycleway attractive to cyclists it has to be easily accessible, and the most straightforward route, you don't want to build it to find out that cyclists don't like the idea of a right and left turn and will just take the bus lane down the quays thanks very much, or find that you are effectively funneling them on dowm the Luas track where you dont want them,If anyone is getting stuck with the awkward route it should be private cars ideally.

Spanish Eyes

The decision is almost made on this now.

Bus commuters to be funnelled down Benburb Street, and will have to negotiate the turn at Church Street.

Thousands of commuters will have a longer commute to facilitate a much smaller number of cyclists it seems.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0603/705663-dublin-cycleway/

cdebru

Given the plans for Bachelors Walk it doesn't make sense to me to move buses off the quay to put them back on at church to them have them conflict with the private cars who have to leave the Quays at Capel St or swifts row presumably, wouldn't it be better to remove private motorists from the north Quays from Hueston to Liberty Hall.

Pete_Cavan

cdebru wrote: »

Given the plans for Bachelors Walk it doesn't make sense to me to move buses off the quay to put them back on at church to them have them conflict with the private cars who have to leave the Quays at Capel St or swifts row presumably, wouldn't it be better to remove private motorists from the north Quays from Hueston to Liberty Hall.

Yip the plans for Bachelors Walk does put a different perspective on things. Why on earth would DCC finish a public consultation on changes to one part of the north quays only to open a new public consultation on changes to another part of the north quays just a few hundred metres away? The two are clearly interlinked and the decision on one is going to affect the another. Madness.

monument

cdebru wrote: »

Given the plans for Bachelors Walk it doesn't make sense to me to move buses off the quay to put them back on at church to them have them conflict with the private cars who have to leave the Quays at Capel St or swifts row presumably, wouldn't it be better to remove private motorists from the north Quays from Hueston to Liberty Hall.

The traffic conflicts with more lanes and higher traffic volumes around Parkgate Street -- Church Street will be far higher than at Jervis Street / Capel St. So doing a crossover at the latter should be easier.

The combined proposals will made buses overall faster and more reliable.

Spanish Eyes

monument wrote: »

The traffic conflicts with more lanes and higher traffic volumes around Parkgate Street -- Church Street will be far higher than at Jervis Street / Capel St. So doing a crossover at the latter should be easier.

The combined proposals will made buses overall faster and more reliable.

Are you a bus commuter from any point West of Heuston?

Perhaps you are. Well I am anyway, and I am very disappointed with the re routing of the buses. Just seems daft to me. Cannot understand why the buses were re routed and not the cars. Baffled I am!

I am awaiting a response from Dublin Bus about this (hope I have a bit of time on my hands for the wait), just asking them their reasons for supporting this. I expect that they consulted with their drivers for their views....

That might help me out a bit. :rolleyes:

monument

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Are you a bus commuter from any point West of Heuston?

Perhaps you are. Well I am anyway, and I am very disappointed with the re routing of the buses. Just seems daft to me. Cannot understand why the buses were re routed and not the cars. Baffled I am!

I am awaiting a response from Dublin Bus about this (hope I have a bit of time on my hands for the wait), just asking them their reasons for supporting this. I expect that they consulted with their drivers for their views....

That might help me out a bit. :rolleyes:

Cross-crossing traffic flowing in same direction is one of the worst kind of delays you can't have.

With the new plan I can't see how bus users would be worried. In the new proposals, private car capacity would be reduced even lower than the was in the Liffey Cycle Route and cars won't be able to make it past Jervis Street.

Spanish Eyes

monument wrote: »

Cross-crossing traffic flowing in same direction is one of the worst kind of delays you can't have.

With the new plan I can't see how bus users would be worried. In the new proposals, private car capacity would be reduced even lower than the was in the Liffey Cycle Route and cars won't be able to make it past Jervis Street.

I am not convinced, but I certainly hope you are right!

The key to its success or failure is the Church Street right hand turn and the next turn onto the Quays. That will be interesting.

But I suppose we have to give the benefit of the doubt. This is what is going to happen whether I like it or not.

monument

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

But I suppose we have to give the benefit of the doubt. This is what is going to happen whether I like it or not.

I would not be quite that defeated, my goal is to get the detail right for cycling but also for buses, for walking, for car access and for loading and drop off etc.

cdebru

monument wrote: »

The traffic conflicts with more lanes and higher traffic volumes around Parkgate Street -- Church Street will be far higher than at Jervis Street / Capel St. So doing a crossover at the latter should be easier.

The combined proposals will made buses overall faster and more reliable.

Do you know what happens when large volumes of private cars want or have to turn left with a bus lane on the left hand side ? They queue in the bus lane, take a look at Conyngham Road traffic backed up in the bus lane to islandbridge some mornings.

Now take a look at junctions where bus has to cross over the car traffic and it can usually be managed quiet easily for example Malahide Road at Donnycarney Church, there is another at liffey Valley on the way up to Palmerstown/Ballyfermot traffic light with a yellow box the far side, etc it works well and much better than traffic having to turn left, so given the plans for bachelors walk it would make for more sense for buses to turn right at the end of the croppy acre and left on to the quays have cars going on down to benburb etc to Church St to turn right or left depending on need all this does is create a major conflict with both the cycle lanes and the bus lanes as cars cross both to leave the quays before bachelors walk.
The proposed change to Bachelors Walk changes everything and the consultation should be reopened with the knowledge of the plans for bachelors walk

Aard

With Bachelors Walk closed off to private cars and the introduction of city centre traffic cells, there will be much reduced demand for a left turn from Church St onto the quays. This will mitigate the negative impacts of the zigzag turn for buses.

Spanish Eyes

Aard wrote: »

With Bachelors Walk closed off to private cars and the introduction of city centre traffic cells, there will be much reduced demand for a left turn from Church St onto the quays. This will mitigate the negative impacts of the zigzag turn for buses.

So why not direct cars down Benburb Street then if there are going to be so few of them?

Genuine question. Buses and bikes should be side by side. A public transport corridor, along with pedestrian enhancement.

Cars should be sent to the back streets. But no, they are elevated to the Quays and the rest of the great unwashed are shoved out.

Aard

Many transport/planning professionals would agree with you.

Spanish Eyes

Aard wrote: »

Many transport/planning professionals would agree with you.

I'm not sure if you are being ironic or not, but anyway.... if as you say, many transport/planning professionals would agree on a PT only corridor on the Quays, I wonder what cohort of that group came up with, and now seem to be signing off on the car/bike option?

Aard

Do you mean sarcastic? Not at all.

Spanish Eyes

Aard wrote: »

Do you mean sarcastic? Not at all.

Sure

monument

There's a load a reasons regarding traffic flow and bus flow to keep the cars on the quays:

• Starting at extending the park out onto Wolfe Tone Quay -- if bus lanes were on the right hand side of the road and heading towards the quays, it would be buses, not cars which would have to take the right hand turn onto Liffey Street West and left again back to the quays.
  
  
• Keeping cars on the quays also allows for traffic turning both left and right off the quays or over the river. With buses on the quays and cars along-side the Luas lines, you'd have cars wanting to turn onto:
  
  
• Ellis Street to get onto the Rory O'More Bridge to go up to James's Street / Thomas Street or to turn back westbound. This would mean you'd have a new signfincat flow of traffic crossing the buses on the quays.
  
  
• At Blackhall Place there is notable flow northbound off the quays. If cars were moved to alongside the Luas tracks, these flows would (a) cause a new turning conflict with Luas and this would also hold up flows causing tallbacks.
  
  
• Hendrick Street has low flows now but to accomade the new route along Benburb Street, the access flows along Hendrick Street will likely increase. If the bus lane was on the single lane on the quays, then traffic accessing Hendrick Street would have to be allow to use part of the quays. A footnote compared to the other impacts, but still worth saying.
  
  
• At Queen Street southbound traffic has a turning lane to turn onto the quays. If traffic here was to be turning onto the new route along Benburb Street it would conflict with the the current stop position of west-bound Luas trams.

The following are a killer for cars using the planned new Benburb Street route:

• The Benburb Street leg of the junction would have to handle notable levels of cars turning in three directions without turning lanes.
  
  
• At Church Street, with option 3 and buses using Benburb Street, the left turn from Church Street to the quays will be banned. If cars are using the Benburb Street, that turn can't be banned, but if the turn isn't banned the turn will fill up as it does now with southbound Church Street traffic. This can be made work for buses but not for cars.
  
  
• At Church Street, the current traffic turning over Father Mathew Bridge is notable, but if those flows were turning from the new Benburb Street they'd be tunring into the already congested flows on Church Street first.

There's other reasons too, which I think I've mentioned before: If buses were on the single-lane section of the quay and a bus broke down, all behind it would have to wait for the tow truck to get there and reverse and tow it away. At least along the Luas tracks there's some chance of buses being able to carefully use the Luas tracks to overtake a broken down bus.

monument wrote: »

The traffic conflicts with more lanes and higher traffic volumes around Parkgate Street -- Church Street will be far higher than at Jervis Street / Capel St. So doing a crossover at the latter should be easier

cdebru wrote: »

Do you know what happens when large volumes of private cars want or have to turn left with a bus lane on the left hand side ? They queue in the bus lane, take a look at Conyngham Road traffic backed up in the bus lane to islandbridge some mornings.

Now take a look at junctions where bus has to cross over the car traffic and it can usually be managed quiet easily for example Malahide Road at Donnycarney Church, there is another at liffey Valley on the way up to Palmerstown/Ballyfermot traffic light with a yellow box the far side, etc it works well and much better than traffic having to turn left, so given the plans for bachelors walk it would make for more sense for buses to turn right at the end of the croppy acre and left on to the quays have cars going on down to benburb etc to Church St to turn right or left depending on need all this does is create a major conflict with both the cycle lanes and the bus lanes as cars cross both to leave the quays before bachelors walk.
The proposed change to Bachelors Walk changes everything and the consultation should be reopened with the knowledge of the plans for bachelors walk

Just to add/correct myself:

Even if buses kept to the quays all the way, outside the Four Courts the bus lane would be back to the to the left hand side of the roadway (otherwise where will the bus stops be?) and there will be car lanes on the outside of the bus lane.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Yip the plans for Bachelors Walk does put a different perspective on things. Why on earth would DCC finish a public consultation on changes to one part of the north quays only to open a new public consultation on changes to another part of the north quays just a few hundred metres away? The two are clearly interlinked and the decision on one is going to affect the another. Madness.

The public consultation on the Liffey Cycle Route is not finished. Only the first round is done. The work on the city centre strategy is only recently finished, while the Liffey Cycle Route first round public consultation happened before the strategy was finished (and was due to happen even longer before it).

Spanish Eyes

@monument.

Thanks for the comprehensive assessment there. You seem to know your stuff, whereas people like me can often have a knee jerk reaction as to how OUR commute may be affected.

I am consoled though by the fact that public consultation on the LCR is not completed yet. And with the latest initiative restricting cars on Bachelor's Walk and so on, there may be further adjustments.

Thanks for all the info.

Aard

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Sure

I'm really not sure what you're getting at and why you're not taking my posts at face value.

As I said above, a lot of transport/planning professionals would agree with keeping buses on the quays.

cgcsb

It looks like buses through Smithfield is now not going to happen. There is a 7 storey apartment block currently under construction on a site that would block the proposed bus route alongside the luas tracks



http://irishcycle.com/2015/06/22/most-popular-liffey-cycle-route-option-may-be-blocked-by-planned-building/



it's probably for the best to go back to the drawing board and work on a more satisfactory solution for bus users.

Spanish Eyes

cgcsb wrote: »

It looks like buses through Smithfield is now not going to happen. There is a 7 storey apartment block currently under construction on a site that would block the proposed bus route alongside the luas tracks

it's probably for the best to go back to the drawing board and work on a more satisfactory solution for bus users.

Thank you very much for the information. I find it bizarre that no one realised that this development had planning permission before putting the option 3 out for consultation. Talk about the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing!

So the buses will not be able to use the full length up as far as Church Street. I for one will be pleased that the bus lane on Benburb Street may be scuppered. Although Mr. Cuffe has suggested the buses turn off at Queen Street.... hmmm.

Is this the site you referred to? (and thanks again)

https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Coke+Ln,+Dublin/@53.347205,-6.279746,3a,75y,206.47h,89.84t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6w69PLcJP264n40pt9WWNQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26output%3Dthumbnail%26thumb%3D2%26panoid%3D6w69PLcJP264n40pt9WWNQ%26w%3D88%26h%3D60%26yaw%3D276%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D96%26ll%3D53.347205,-6.279746!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x48670c2effdd7667:0xd43337501448d9e4

monument

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Is this the site you referred to? (and thanks again)

https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Coke+Ln,+Dublin/@53.347205,-6.279746,3a,75y,206.47h,89.84t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6w69PLcJP264n40pt9WWNQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26output%3Dthumbnail%26thumb%3D2%26panoid%3D6w69PLcJP264n40pt9WWNQ%26w%3D88%26h%3D60%26yaw%3D276%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D96%26ll%3D53.347205,-6.279746!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x48670c2effdd7667:0xd43337501448d9e4

That's part of the site, although the building is only planned on part of the site where it is wider, a bit closer to the square.

Spanish Eyes

monument wrote: »

That's part of the site, although the building is only planned on part of the site where it is wider, a bit closer to the square.

Thank you. Looking on Google Earth I can see what you mean - that the area nearer the Square (east end) is wider.

Either way, the planned bus route will not be able to go that way now.

It will be interesting to see what alternatives will be proposed.

Pete_Cavan

So it looks as if the bus rerouting via Bunburb Street is now not an option (bit ridiculous that DCC could not have figured this out earlier seeing as they granted permission for the development). In that case, the only option will be to divert cars off the north quays at Blackhall Place. They could be allowed back on at Church Street and Capel Street but if they are banned from Bachelors Walk that seems a bit pointless. Should then private traffic be removed from the north quays from Frank Sherwin bridge, having public transport/cycling only from there at least as far as Bachelors Walk?

In the above scenario, I would still like to see Croppies Acre extended to the river with buses going behind to interchange with Luas, then back to the quays. I would also like to see the footpath extended along Ormond Quay to allow bars/cafes/restaurants along there have outdoor seating. For a good chunk of Ormond Quay the footpath could be extended the full width of a traffic lane while still leaving a continuous bus lane and the cycle path, bus stops would be indented into the footpath at suitable locations so that the bus lane is not obstructed. It would really really improve bus speeds and also make that section of the quays a more enjoyable place to be.