Am I being unreasonable? Travelling for work

tony1980

In my last job, we travelled quite frequently and if we had to travel on a Sunday to the States, we got an extra days holidays for it. If we got back late on a Sat, we got that back too. It depends on the job i'd say, not sure legally what you are entitled to!

Greendiamond

Why are we so accepting of having work eat into our personal time?

Why should employees give up their weekends for work without getting anything in return. A smart company will be flexible and fair with employees.

Stheno

Greendiamond wrote: »

Why are we so accepting of having work eat into our personal time?

Why should employees give up their weekends for work without getting anything in return. A smart company will be flexible and fair with employees.

It can depend on the kind of work you do, some of which involves a commitment to travel.

I'm based in Dublin, but last worked in Dublin three weeks ago, and will next work in Dublin in about three weeks.

In that time I'll have worked in Cork, Belfast, Derry, Cavan and Waterford.

Most starts are 8:30am starts, and rather than ever sacrifice a Sunday, I will get up as early as I need to on a Monday and travel down that morning, either via public transport or by driving.

I do get credit for the fact that I travel so much and spend a fair bit of time away from home, and the overall approach for managing people like me is very hands off, if I'm an hour late or finish early on a Friday that's fine, so there is a fair bit of balance.

bobbysands81

I'm shocked at the amount of folk who think it's okay to give time to work on Sundays as part of your job and not expect time in lieu back (at the very least).

As a salaried employee I understand the argument that we should expect some encroachment into our personal time, but given that the OP is giving his employer all weekday evenings to attend the required training I would think that requesting a day's time in lieu for the time and hassle involved would be a very fair compromise by the OP.

BenEadir

dulpit wrote: »

Hey all. Just want to get other people's opinion on something. I am travelling with work next week for a training course

Is the training course providing you with skills which will help you in your career or make you more valuable in the marketplace? If so, why would you want a day off when the company are funding your professional / technical development?

bobbysands81

BenEadir wrote: »

Is the training course providing you with skills which will help you in your career or make you more valuable in the marketplace? If so, why would you want a day off when the company are funding your professional / technical development?

You think this company have a social conscience and are handing out training that is not going to be of benefit to them?

Stheno

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I'm shocked at the amount of folk who think it's okay to give time to work on Sundays as part of your job and not expect time in lieu back (at the very least).

As a salaried employee I understand the argument that we should expect some encroachment into our personal time, but given that the OP is giving his employer all weekday evenings to attend the required training I would think that requesting a day's time in lieu for the time and hassle involved would be a very fair compromise by the OP.

But if op wants to do the training and it will add to their cc and is being paid for is that not a trade off? There could be the alternative of booking annual leave to do the course and paying for it themselves

I know eight people off the top of my head doing just that at the moment

Bob24

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I'm shocked at the amount of folk who think it's okay to give time to work on Sundays as part of your job and not expect time in lieu back (at the very least).

As a salaried employee I understand the argument that we should expect some encroachment into our personal time, but given that the OP is giving his employer all weekday evenings to attend the required training I would think that requesting a day's time in lieu for the time and hassle involved would be a very fair compromise by the OP.

Really depends on how generous the company is with business trips and what the training is.

If it is an costly training that will give a good certification to put on his CV and he will be staying in a nice hotel with a good budget for meals, it is not the same as staying at a cheap hotel to attend some boring cheap training given by a colleague from a different office that will only be applicable to his particular job/company.

To me it depends on the balance between how much the training is beneficial to the employer and the employee. If the employer is being nice paying for a well recognised certification that is not absolutely needed for the job and the employee keeps asking for more, they might as well just say that if he can't make time for the journey to the training location the training is cancelled. I've been in that situation with my previous employer and I don't think it would have came to anyone's mind in the team to ask for time in lieu.

Stheno

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You think this company have a social conscience and are handing out training that is not going to be of benefit to them?

I can think of at least three large companies here who if offering redundancy include training packages worth thousands to help employees find a new job

BenEadir

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You think this company have a social conscience and are handing out training that is not going to be of benefit to them?

Of course it will be of benefit to them, why on earth would they be paying for it otherwise? Is that a real question?

How about this. If both the company and the OP share the benefits from the training why don't they also share the cost? The company is paying for the training, paying for the transport to and from the training, paying for accommodation and meals etc for the OP and paying the OP's salary whilst he /she is on the training course. Basically the company is paying all the cost but isn't receiving all the benefit. Is that fair?

I think the OP should offer to work an extra few days FOC as a contribution towards the benefit he /she is personally receiving from the generosity of the company.

bobbysands81

BenEadir wrote: »

Of course it will be of benefit to them, why on earth would they be paying for it otherwise? Is that a real question?

How about this. If both the company and the OP share the benefits from the training why don't they also share the cost? The company is paying for the training, paying for the transport to and from the training, paying for accommodation and meals etc for the OP and paying the OP's salary whilst he /she is on the training course. Basically the company is paying all the cost but isn't receiving all the benefit. Is that fair?

I think the OP should offer to work an extra few days FOC as a contribution towards the benefit he /she is personally receiving from the generosity of the company.

Going by your logic companies are altruistic vessels that dispense training for the good of their employees. Companies don't hand out training that they get no return on, that would be madness. Nor do they hand out training for the benefit of the employee (except in circumstances outlined above relating to redundancy), training is given solely for the benefit of the company.

In your scenario should the employee not be paying Benefit in Kind seeing as you view training as a form of payment?

Companies exist to make profit, no other reason. If training a staff member leads to more profit then that's what they'll do.

BenEadir

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Going by your logic companies are altruistic vessels that dispense training for the good of their employees.

No, you're just misinterpreting what I actually said to try and justify your subsequent point. I agree 100% that companies exist to maximise profits and if training an employee will enhance profits then the company will make the investment to secure the increased profits.

However, you seem to be ignoring the fact that although the company is paying for and will benefit from their employee having additional skills the employee also personally benefits by taking the training course and will take this enhanced value with them when they leave to work for another company. Do you not even acknowledge that the employee derives a personal benefit from attaining new skills paid for by the company?

bobbysands81 wrote: »

In your scenario should the employee not be paying Benefit in Kind seeing as you view training as a form of payment?

Companies exist to make profit, no other reason. If training a staff member leads to more profit then that's what they'll do.

For tax purposes training is deemed to be "necessarily incurred in the course of employment" so is therefore not deemed a benefit in kind.

Uncle Ben

dulpit wrote: »

Hey all. Just want to get other people's opinion on something. I am travelling with work next week for a training course, getting a train at 15:30 on Sunday afternoon, I will return home the following Friday at about 23:00. I figured that seen as I am away from home for nearly a full week, and have to lose most of a weekend day too, that I would ask for a day off the following week in lieu of this, I was told no.

I am a salaried employee, so I understand that I may need to do extra hours/etc with no additional payment (we have never received overtime pay ever). But I think this is work being particularly unfair, is it?

I don't think you're being unreasonable at all. I am amazed however that so many people on here think its reasonable for you to get up on a Sunday afternoon and not return until Friday midnight because you can put a course on a CV or because you get to have a nice meal on a train.

Go into your boss and tell him you want overtime or time off. He/she might respect you for it.

BenEadir

Uncle Ben wrote: »

Go into your boss and tell him you want overtime or time off. He/she might respect you for it.

Or he/she might take the view that next time there's an opportunity to help someone develop their career they'll offer it to someone who appreciates it. I know I would.

It's strange how some people want to claim half a day or a day off for giving the company a few extra hours of their time when the company are paying to enhance their skills and market value but I've never heard the same people argue that when staff take a couple of hours off here and there to attend to personal business that they should give some of their salary back to the company. Give and take doesn't exist for such people, just take! Sad 1970's "us and them" type attitude. Who says the dinosaurs are all dead?

Andrea B.

Interesting topic
In my opinion, as there is a high absence of company policies here;
If it is not a frequent occurrence in a salaried role, then soak it up. What is the big deal?
If regular, then it should be brought to the table and ensured that it is considered for compensation of some sort.
cently a salaried report of mine asked for a half day off as lieu for time worked. I knew that if I challenged he would cite a recent UK trip that he got home at 10pm from.
Instead, I told him that in my opinion, and to please correct me if wrong, "give and take also encompasses leaving early, arriving late, personal calls, extended breaks, personal internet, personal chats, NCT.....etc, so let us never get to the point of measuring here, as I think I know which way pendulum will swing. Take your half day on this occasion".
With this person, I do not expect to hear any more, as a good give-take relationship exists relating to all other aspects of work relationship and duties.

Uncle Ben

BenEadir wrote: »

Or he/she might take the view that next time there's an opportunity to help someone develop their career they'll offer it to someone who appreciates it. I know I would.

It's strange how some people want to claim half a day or a day off for giving the company a few extra hours of their time when the company are paying to enhance their skills and market value but I've never heard the same people argue that when staff take a couple of hours off here and there to attend to personal business that they should give some of their salary back to the company. Give and take doesn't exist for such people, just take! Sad 1970's "us and them" type attitude. Who says the dinosaurs are all dead?

Perhaps I've just worked with progressive employers. The most recent course I did took place in Tullamore about 2 hours from my work address . Amongst all the bumpf for the course was one A4 page with sections for milage travelled @97 cents per mile.Subsistence receipted up to €20 per day and extra hours claimed on top of normal working week. All to be claimed correctly through HR ASAP on training code ######. No questions asked

New Home

Company policy or no company policy, it might be worth your while to take a look at the Working Time Act.

Manach

Not directly commenting but remarking in some companies I'm aware is expected for weekends to be spent moving from one sales/marketing location to another so as to be ready with clients M-F. It is the "done" thing so as to meet expectations of the company culture. For the OP I'd hope this would be a rare/one off and not the start of a trend.

BenEadir

New Home wrote: »

Company policy or no company policy, it might be worth your while to take a look at the Working Time Act.

Only if you average over 48 hours per week in the long term and BTW, under the Working time Act there is no statutory obligation on employers to pay employees for work completed in overtime. See http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/hours_of_work/working_week.html

BenEadir

Manach wrote: »

Not directly commenting but remarking in some companies I'm aware is expected for weekends to be spent moving from one sales/marketing location to another so as to be ready with clients M-F. It is the "done" thing so as to meet expectations of the company culture. For the OP I'd hope this would be a rare/one off and not the start of a trend.

f the work is too hard or the hours are too long either negotiate a salary which reflects the hours/work you are required to do or leave, there are no chains on the door. Companies which don't treat staff well (at least fairly) will struggle to recruit and retain staff. It's economically better to have a settled happy workforce than constant staff turnover.

New Home

No, but they do have obligations regarding rest periods.

From here - http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0020/sec0011.html#sec11
to here -
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0020/sec0018.html#sec18

I'm sure there's more stuff.



As for the staff turnover, someone should tell the likes of Ryanair...

BenEadir

New Home wrote: »

No, but they do have obligations regarding rest periods.

From here - http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0020/sec0011.html#sec11
to here -
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0020/sec0018.html#sec18

I'm sure there's more stuff.

I doubt very much the OP isn't getting the required 11 hours of rest per days training unless you want to count travelling/drinking/eating and sleeping in a hotel on the company's tab as "work"?

New Home wrote: »

As for the staff turnover, someone should tell the likes of Ryanair...

Average length of service in Ryanair (per 2013 annual report) is 4.8 years. I odn't know how that compares to most commercial organisations but I'd say Ryanair are OK with it given their phenomenal success. See http://www.bapress.ca/jcm/jcm-article/1929-0136-2014-04-73-11.pdf

New Home

Fair enough.

Frigga_92

dulpit wrote: »

Hey all. Just want to get other people's opinion on something. I am travelling with work next week for a training course, getting a train at 15:30 on Sunday afternoon, I will return home the following Friday at about 23:00. I figured that seen as I am away from home for nearly a full week, and have to lose most of a weekend day too, that I would ask for a day off the following week in lieu of this, I was told no.

I am a salaried employee, so I understand that I may need to do extra hours/etc with no additional payment (we have never received overtime pay ever). But I think this is work being particularly unfair, is it?

As it is training I am assuming it is a once off so I wouldn't make too much of a big deal about it. I do think the company are being cheeky expecting you to use Sunday for travelling and it would be nice if they could at least acknowledge that they are eating into your weekend - I assume they haven't, however, if this is a once off I would just suck it up and hope to get something worthwhile from the training course, both in respect of your current job and future jobs.

For what it's worth, when I started in my job I was not expected to travel but over time when I proved what I was capable of and was given more responsibility, I began travelling. There have been times when I have travelled up and down to Dublin everyday for a week getting the train early and not getting home until really late or have gotten home from a meeting which I have had to travel a long distance to at 11p.m. and when it became a regular thing I negotiated with my employer and they agreed to pay me for my travel time so any travelling outside the time it would take me to get to the office is treated as work time and I get paid as such. This is something that I was able to negotiate with my employer after I had already proved my worth to her.
I know not every employer would act in this manner and I also know that it's not necessarily an entitlement of every employee.

gdkaufmann

Just a thought, are keeping the frequent flyer miles?

They aren't worth much anymore, but it's some compensation.

It doesn't make the situation "right", but may take some of the sting out of it.