England have failed to produce a European 1/4 finalist for the first time since 92/93

Knex*

Straight from OptaJoe on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/OptaJoe/status/578645651363377154


That is a pretty incredible record, but it does perhaps bring with it a cause for concern?

Now, I don't see England losing their 4th CL place, or anything so drastic, but when you look at the squads in the PL at the moment, Chelsea is the only one I see as being capable of winning the Champions League. And that, in part, would be down to them being able to defend their way successfully through ties against Barca, and the likes.

City, the league Champions, were played off the park against Barca. Arsenal capitulated at home against Monaco, giving themselves far too much to do. And the less said about Liverpool's pathetic effort in the Group stages, the better.

If we look at the Top 6 teams in England right now, none of them for me, aside from Chelsea, would have me betting on them to win the CL next year.

Chelsea have the experience, both through their players and their manager, in getting through big European ties. They are a solid unit and defend admirably, and know exactly what is required of them.

The same experience and discipline is perhaps lacking in the other English sides. Definitely Liverpool and Spurs.

English teams are a far cry from that golden period 5-10 years ago, that's for certain. Man City have been undone tactically every year, more or less, despite their millions. Perhaps expected under Mancini, but things have not changed one bit with Pellegrini.

While perhaps the attacking play of English sides has become more expansive and fluid in recent years, they seem to have lost something that made them great. Perhaps the solidity, or the attitude that helped set them apart, coupled with some of the key players for sides like United, ageing and not being replaced.

Or maybe the European game as just gotten stronger, and England has yet to catch up?

Oranage2

It has been only one year, this hyperbole is shocking!

jaykay74

Oranage2 wrote: »

It has been only one year, this hyperbole is shocking!

In terms of no CL quarter finalists its 2 from the last 3 years. Europa league, not all that relevant I think.

Danye

Knex. wrote: »

Straight from OptaJoe on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/OptaJoe/status/578645651363377154


That is a pretty incredible record, but it does perhaps bring with it a cause for concern?

Now, I don't see England losing their 4th CL place, or anything so drastic, but when you look at the squads in the PL at the moment, Chelsea is the only one I see as being capable of winning the Champions League. And that, in part, would be down to them being able to defend their way successfully through ties against Barca, and the likes.

City, the league Champions, were played off the park against Barca. Arsenal capitulated at home against Monaco, giving themselves far too much to do. And the less said about Liverpool's pathetic effort in the Group stages, the better.

If we look at the Top 6 teams in England right now, none of them for me, aside from Chelsea, would have me betting on them to win the CL next year.

Chelsea have the experience, both through their players and their manager, in getting through big European ties. They are a solid unit and defend admirably, and know exactly what is required of them.

The same experience and discipline is perhaps lacking in the other English sides. Definitely Liverpool and Spurs.

English teams are a far cry from that golden period 5-10 years ago, that's for certain. Man City have been undone tactically every year, more or less, despite their millions. Perhaps expected under Mancini, but things have not changed one bit with Pellegrini.

While perhaps the attacking play of English sides has become more expansive and fluid in recent years, they seem to have lost something that made them great. Perhaps the solidity, or the attitude that helped set them apart, coupled with some of the key players for sides like United, ageing and not being replaced.

Or maybe the European game as just gotten stronger, and England has yet to catch up?

It's hard to think why British teams, and in particular Premier League teams are starting to struggle.

The glaringly obvious answer is that they're just not good enough.

Zebra3

How many players in the Premier League have Barça and Real Madrid got their eye on?

Probably none.

Enough said.

Knex*

Zebra3 wrote: »

How many players in the Premier League have Barça and Real Madrid got their eye on?

Probably none.

Enough said.

Good point, actually.

Hazard, perhaps. And De Gea. Outside from that, I'm struggling.

jaykay74

Zebra3 wrote: »

How many players in the Premier League have Barça and Real Madrid got their eye on?

Probably none.

Enough said.

Isn't De Gea heavily linked with Madrid

weldoninhio

English football is ridiculously over-rated by people in UK and Ireland. It's a glorified kick and rush league.

Chelsea in Europe are like Tony Pulis' Stoke were in the Prem. An annoyance to the team who want to play proper football.

bucketybuck

The blindingly obvious answer is that these things are cyclical, teams and leagues can have periods of dominance, then fall away to be replaced by another, before getting strong and competing once again. Rinse and repeat.

Your thread title could easily be a statement of pride, as in, "Only once in over 20 years have the English not had a European quarter finalists, what a superb league it is!"

Knex*

bucketybuck wrote: »

The blindingly obvious answer is that these things are cyclical, teams and leagues can have periods of dominance, then fall away to be replaced by another, before getting strong and competing once again. Rinse and repeat.

Your thread title could easily be a statement of pride, as in, "Only once in over 20 years have the English not had a European quarter finalists, what a superb league it is!"

Aye, to be fair it is an incredible record to have had.

As for the title; I just copied and pasted the tweet in, tbh :pac:

Danye

Knex. wrote: »

Good point, actually.

Hazard, perhaps. And De Gea. Outside from that, I'm struggling.

Sterling perhaps?

super_furry

Zebra3 wrote: »

How many players in the Premier League have Barça and Real Madrid got their eye on?

Probably none.

Enough said.

And when they do want them, they get them without question.

The Premier League meanwhile, gets Spain's cast-offs.

duffman13

Danye wrote: »

Sterling perhaps?

Sterling ahead of any of Bale, Ronaldo, Rodriguez, Messi, Suarez, Neymar is madness. He would probably fall behind Pedro, Isco and Jesse Rodriguez as well.

Sanchez has been one of the stand out players in the league this year and couldnt get a lot of game time at Barca. No player is having a Suarez/Bale season to justify one of those two clubs taking an interest perhaps maybe De Gea (only due to Casillas being terrible at times), even then I think it's pure paper talk.

Danye

duffman13 wrote: »

Sterling ahead of any of Bale, Ronaldo, Rodriguez, Messi, Suarez, Neymar is madness. He would probably fall behind Pedro, Isco and Jesse Rodriguez as well.

Sanchez has been one of the stand out players in the league this year and couldnt get a lot of game time at Barca. No player is having a Suarez/Bale season to justify one of those two clubs taking an interest perhaps maybe De Gea (only due to Casillas being terrible at times), even then I think it's pure paper talk.

To be fair I couldn't see Hazard getting in ahead of any of the players mentioned either.

duffman13

Danye wrote: »

To be fair I couldn't see Hazard getting in ahead of any of the players mentioned either.

I agree, I forgot him, there is no attacking player in the league that would walk straight into either of those teams like Bale and Suarez over the last two seasons.

Mickeroo

Aguero would easily be of the standard to play for any of the top teams.

greendom

At the moment the situation is that the very top level of players go to Barca and Real Madrid. The tv money deal in Spain is heavily stacked in favour of these clubs. Even so the new money deal achieved by the Premier League is likely to change that. It won't be long 'till the 2 Spanish giants will be after EPL cast offs.

Danye

duffman13 wrote: »

I agree, I forgot him, there is no attacking player in the league that would walk straight into either of those teams like Bale and Suarez over the last two seasons.

Yeah your right.

Maybe if Hazard and Sterling fulfill their potential then maybe one of Barca or Real might take them.


A player I think would be a welcome addition to Madrid or Barca would be Ivanovic of Chelsea.

NIMAN

I think De Gea will be back in La Liga in the next 2 seasons for sure.

I also think Hazard would suit Spain too, although he signed a long deal recently didn't he? (I know contracts are worth nothing and are easily broken).

This old argument about the EPL not being as technical as other leagues, and its one I have peddled myself in the past, is hard to understand considering the amount of foreigners playing there. Its almost as if they get drawn into the British way of playing the game, and get more wasteful with their possession.

I think that the fans also have a part to play in this too. English fans aren't as understanding of slow, patient build-up and holding on to the ball. Often if CBs pass the ball around at the back, fans get restless and want it moved forward. And is it only British fans that celebrate every corner like a goal?

For all the bitching I do about the EPL, I have got to admit that the unpredictability of it this season is making it very interesting. I looks like the Top 4 battle is going to go to the last game this season, and with a couple of 'big' clubs potentially missing out on CL footie next year, it will be riveting.

thebaz

weldoninhio wrote: »

Chelsea in Europe are like Tony Pulis' Stoke were in the Prem. An annoyance to the team who want to play proper football.

I believe the antiquated hoofball tactics of Big Sam and Pullis bring the standard of all teams and players down to the Brittania level. To succeed in the Premiership you have to overcome the aerial bombardment of Stoke and whatever team Big Sam and Pullis are managing , if not you face the ire of the media , people in the British media now are afraid to question the tactics of Big Sam and Pullis , and now seam happy to rejoice in stokes addition to the top table.

Also relegating 3 teams is not good for English football, it breeds fear instead of freedom and confidence.

JohnDaniels

Surely with the increased PL TV money the flow of the best players to Spain should be halted somewhat? I know other factors come into play but money is a key driving factor and if being offered more in the future than they can earn in Spain it may mean we see the best players in England again. The strength of Sterling against the Euro is also a new major factor.

The fact that the big two in Spain continue to rape every other team in that league to sustain the structure is a disgrace.

NIMAN

greendom wrote: »

At the moment the situation is that the very top level of players go to Barca and Real Madrid. The tv money deal in Spain is heavily stacked in favour of these clubs. Even so the new money deal achieved by the Premier League is likely to change that. It won't be long 'till the 2 Spanish giants will be after EPL cast offs.

I think there is more to it than this, and don't believe the big 2 is Spain will ever be taking cast-offs from the EPL.

Thinks like weather, culture, style of football, lifestyle, language, prestige of club etc carry an awful lot of sway with the top players. Of course money is a factor too but its not like MAdrid and Barca will be paying minimum wage anytime soon.

JohnDaniels

NIMAN wrote: »

I think there is more to it than this, and don't believe the big 2 is Spain will ever be taking cast-offs from the EPL.

Thinks like weather, culture, style of football, lifestyle, language, prestige of club etc carry an awful lot of sway with the top players. Of course money is a factor too but its not like MAdrid and Barca will be paying minimum wage anytime soon.

If the money becomes spread out fairly in Spain,with the new English TV deal it will be very hard for them to compete. Put it like this, look at the figures below and imagine the spending power of a big 2 in England if the deal was setup like in Spain.

https://twitter.com/English_AS/status/565059660844376064/photo/1

greendom

NIMAN wrote: »

I think there is more to it than this, and don't believe the big 2 is Spain will ever be taking cast-offs from the EPL.

Thinks like weather, culture, style of football, lifestyle, language, prestige of club etc carry an awful lot of sway with the top players. Of course money is a factor too but its not like MAdrid and Barca will be paying minimum wage anytime soon.

All fair points. The financial element is a huge one though. You don't see too many elite players going to Espanol, Parma or Rayo Vallecano for example
The situation will become more balanced. Not as one-sided as it is at the moment

Harry Palmr

NIMAN wrote: »

I think there is more to it than this, and don't believe the big 2 is Spain will ever be taking cast-offs from the EPL.

No they never signed Macherano, Alonso, Arbeloa, Suarez, Bale, Ronaldo, Vermaelen did they?

Hulk Hands

Back in April/May 2009 we were being smothered with claims of a UEFA conspiracy against English clubs to stop them from becoming all dominant. Only a ridiculous refereeing performance stopped a second consecutive champions league final between United and Chelsea. Back then Liverpool and Arsenal had been in a recent final, as had Chelsea who would go on to win one, United were all conquering, reigning champs, had walked to the final and were on course for 7 trophys. And the Man city project was just taking off. Then the cycle broke and Barcas greatness broke it up to an extent. It's just cycles like someone said. With this TV deal and the PLs commercial brilliance it will come again

Knex*

Does anyone foresee an Italian football type decline for the PL over the next few years?

Juventus have really been their only team of note in recent times, and the likes of AC and Inter are still going through their transition phases.

I can't see it happening to the PL though, not to the same extent as there were a lot of other factors that contributed to Italian football decline.

Its a pity Dortmund have seen such a slip in their domestic league this year, as it would have been nice having two strong teams from the same league, in themselves and Bayern, being strong contenders each year. But that's what happens when FC Hollywood buy your best players, I suppose.

CSF

Sterling would be eaten alive at Real to be fair. Needs to stay at Liverpool, fulfil his potential and see where that takes him.

Don't think there's a massive amount between Hazard and Bale myself.

Mickeroo

Harry Palmr wrote: »

No they never signed Macherano, Alonso, Arbeloa, Suarez, Bale, Ronaldo, Vermaelen did they?

Vermaelen is the only one there I'd call a cast off, it was a weird decision by Barca frankly. The rest all moved on to be key palyers at bigger clubs (well Bale remains to be seen, but he's doing alright) and I don't think any of the clubs that sold them actually wanted to.

Harry Palmr

Hulk Hands wrote: »

With this TV deal and the PLs commercial brilliance it will come again

Amazingly the Guardian ran an article which managed to conflate the new TV deal with failure in the CL. I could have pointed out to the author that when a previous deal was minted (2007) the PL dominated the latter stages of the Champions League but I didn't!

The current malaise is really a reflection of the managers failures rather than the league style - no one seems to know how to set up a side to win a tie over two legs, while its true that the margins for each side have been narrow -

Arsenal away goal, Chelsea away goal, City 2 goals (Liverpool two points at group stage)

- all the defeats were eminently avoidable with some tactical wit.

CSF

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Amazingly the Guardian ran an article which managed to conflate the new TV deal with failure in the CL. I could have pointed out to the author that when a previous deal was minted (2007) the PL dominated the latter stages of the Champions League but I didn't!

The current malaise is really a reflection of the managers failures rather than the league style - no one seems to know how to set up a side to win a tie over two legs, while its true that the margins for each side have been narrow -

Arsenal away goal, Chelsea away goal, City 2 goals (Liverpool two points at group stage)

- all the defeats were eminently avoidable with some tactical wit.

Who better than Mourinho though? Guardiola maybe but that's a cointoss IMO.

bucketybuck

Knex. wrote: »

Does anyone foresee an Italian football type decline for the PL over the next few years?

To quite a large extent that Italian decline was due to money, as in they didn't have any. This is not currently an issue for the PL clubs, just the opposite in fact.

The English teams are in a slump but they haven't gone away you know, and even now nobody really wants to face a team like Chelsea. The likes of United will spend the cash and return, while at some point City will stop wasting all those millions and start to have an impact.

If you told me that in 2/3 years time there would once again be 4 English teams in the 1/4 finals, or 3 in the semi finals I wouldn't be one bit surprised. Thats the nature of cup competition.

Harry Palmr

Mourinho simply underestimated PSG.

eagle eye

Its just a bad year for the EPL in Europe. The place most teams are lacking is CM/DM. I would love to see Southampton in Europe just because of this. They have that part of their team sorted with Schneiderlin and Wanyama and I think they would do very well because of that.

Chelsea have one man that can play that position in Matic but playing Fabregas beside him leaves holes there. Fabregas should be playing the central attacking role imo with another DM type beside Matic.

I'm in agreement with the thought that they are not able to set up to play knockout football in Europe.

Sanity_Saviour

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Mourinho simply underestimated PSG.

I would argue that Mourinho underestimated Chelsea

weldoninhio

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

I would argue that Mourinho underestimated Chelsea

I would argue that Mourinhio overestimated himself.

elefant

I think any club side in Spain would take David Silva in a heartbeat.

weldoninhio

elefant wrote: »

I think any club side in Spain would take David Silva in a heartbeat.

I can't see him fitting in to Barca or Madrid.

elefant

weldoninhio wrote: »

I can't see him fitting in to Barca or Madrid.

Silva wouldn't fit? He'd be perfect at Barca, just as he is for Spain. I'd argue he would actually start most games for either team, looking at their starting lineups over the past month.

Magico Gonzalez

elefant wrote: »

Silva wouldn't fit? He'd be perfect at Barca, just as he is for Spain. I'd argue he would actually start most games for either team, looking at their starting lineups over the past month.

Go on then, whose place at Barca does Silva take?

elefant

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

Go on then, whose place at Barca does Silva take?

Well, looking at their teams over the last while, he could well have played instead of (in my opinion):

Sergi Roberto
Xavi
Pedro
Rafinha
Rakitic

For Real, he could have played ahead of:
Lucas Silva (prosivo: haven't actually watched him play yet, so not sure if he has been playing the more defensive 'Kroos' role)
Isco
Illaramendi
Modric who has been injured
James

Winston Payne

The standard of defences in the Premier League is well down from where it was six or seven years ago. Teams are much more open now at the top of the league, and that gets exploited at the highest level. Defences aren't as good, and neither is the protection in front of them.

The standard of coaches is down too. We are all aware of Wenger's failings. I think Mourinho is looking a little figured out in Europe and there is, startlingly, a bit of mental fragility at Chelsea, something unimaginable from his first time there, and it's a complex that Mourinho has fed, rather than improved. Pellegrini is a decent manager at Champions League level, no more. It's hard to see him ever getting a knockout victory against Barcelona with the team he currently has, he doesn't look like he has it in him. Rodgers is inexperienced at the level. The decline is natural enough in my opinion.

NIMAN

I think if Mour allowed Chelsea players to express themselves and play a more expansive game then they would have been too good for PSG, but of course thats not his mindset.

As for Sterling, if Madrid ever spent silly money on that guy, it would turn out to be a total waste. Has the look of another Theo Walcott to me, vastly over-hyped.

weldoninhio

NIMAN wrote: »

I think if Mour allowed Chelsea players to express themselves and play a more expansive game then they would have been too good for PSG, but of course thats not his mindset.

As for Sterling, if Madrid ever spent silly money on that guy, it would turn out to be a total waste. Has the look of another Theo Walcott to me, vastly over-hyped.

100% agree on Sterling.

I think with the hype around the Premiership, where a loss, no matter how far ahead you are, is reported like a devastating thing. "Mind games" are hyped to breaking point. It breeds an atmosphere of fear of losing. So expressing yourself is sacrificed at the alter of not losing.

Sanity_Saviour

weldoninhio wrote: »

I would argue that Mourinhio overestimated himself.

in what way

weldoninhio

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

in what way

His build up was all about PSG being too physical. The pressure he put on the ref worked and Ibra was sent off harshly imo.

He thought, I've won this, got his team to sit back, thinking PSG were done. It backfired on him.

Fudge You

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

Go on then, whose place at Barca does Silva take?

Xavi.
He is 35, and does not start every game.

weldoninhio

Fudge You wrote: »

Xavi.
He is 35, and does not start every game.

He plays a completely different game to Xavi?!?

Fudge You

weldoninhio wrote: »

He plays a completely different game to Xavi?!?

I disagree. Get the ball, pass it to the forwards.

Do Rakitic or Rafinha play the same game as xavi??? Cause they seem to cover him when he is not playing this season.

And also, even if you disagree with me. Xavi cant play forever. And Silva is a top midfielder who would obviously fit into the barca.
Im sure you agree with the last sentence, and if you dont, well there is pretty much nothing I can do about it.

weldoninhio

Fudge You wrote: »

I disagree. Get the ball, pass it to the forwards.

Do Rakitic or Rafinha play the same game as xavi??? Cause they seem to cover him when he is not playing this season.

And also, even if you disagree with me. Xavi cant play forever. And Silva is a top midfielder who would obviously fit into the barca.
Im sure you agree with the last sentence, and if you dont, well there is pretty much nothing I can do about it.

If Iniesta was 34 and about to retire, I'd agree with you. But Silva and Xavi have different roles and different skill sets.

Sanity_Saviour

weldoninhio wrote: »

His build up was all about PSG being too physical. The pressure he put on the ref worked and Ibra was sent off harshly imo.

I hope you're not actually being serious here, he didn't kick Oscar

weldoninhio wrote: »

He thought, I've won this, got his team to sit back, thinking PSG were done. It backfired on him.

I'm not sure how effective your amateur mind-reading is!

What has this got to do with Mourinho overestimating himself?