Match Thread: Scotland v Ireland, Murrayfield, Sat 2.30pm **See Mod Warning Post #1**

Neil3030

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Every single one of those factors are out of our hands. Its only shifting the goalposts to bring them into the conversation.

Sexton has a history of struggling with his kicking in high-pressure matches. With a world cup coming up, that's a real worry. He's a great player who had a great competition, but that's not a reason to sweep everything under the carpet.

It's a worry but nothing can be done about it. Hopefully his hams will be in good nick at the WC because that apparently seems to be a factor in his kicking in these situations.

Clareman

P_1 wrote: »

Sorry but Ireland could have also lost the title due to any one of the following:

1) France scoring their late try against us

2) Italy folding against England

3) Scotland folding against England

4) France's many many missed kicks against England

My aunt could be my uncle if she had balls. There's so many ifs and buts in sports which is why we love it, no-one remembers how you win, just what's in the win column

Mahatma Geansai

mr. pleasant wrote: »

How is France scoring a try against Ireland out of Irelands hands though?

I didn't read the post properly. It is irrelevant to what happened today though. If you want to bring it into the conversation, you'll also have to question every single moment of every single game Ireland played in this 6 N.

P_1

Clareman wrote: »

My aunt could be my uncle if she had balls. There's so many ifs and buts in sports which is why we love it, no-one remembers how you win, just what's in the win column

Quite true, dare I suggest we enjoy the victory in that case and not torture ourselves with the potential reasons for us not getting said victory

.ak

gosplan wrote: »

Sexton really needs to stop bottling pressure kicks.

We left 9 simple points behind us today and if Ciprani hadn't been such a fool to run straight into touch, we would have seriously regretted them.

I love Jonny he's amazing but it'll cost us on te big days.

Except he didn't cost us on the big day. You do realise he missed two very difficult kicks right? He's an 80% kicker and filled his brief. You're just buying the populace brief.

.ak

tayto lover wrote: »

Hence the 2 easy penalty misses. You make his point.

There weren't easy.

How many difficult kicks did he miss, with a double dodgy hammer?

mr. pleasant

and also, we can safely assume he and the coaches will also have noticed the missed kicks.he'll work on it.

with regards to the "it does not matter if we would even be in the position to worry about the title without him" - how does this make any sense? he's a great player, top class without a doubt. he's miles and miles ahead of any other OH in Ireland.

what else could we do? play another OH because kicking is better? play another kicker in another position? mads at 12 of mcf on the wing? all not really great options.

looks like we'll just play our best OH and keep the fingers crossed for the important kicks.

tritriagain

I think after watching the games today with teams all chasing points bonus points have to be looked at. These were the best 3 games of the tournament by a mile. I know with bonus points a team could win the grand slam but not win championship but for the development of the game as a spectator sport I think it would be a fair trade off and would encourage the best teams to develop their attacking game as well as the defensive aspect of their play.

P_1

tritriagain wrote: »

I think after watching the games today with teams all chasing points bonus points have to be looked at. These were the best 3 games of the tournament by a mile. I know with bonus points a team could win the grand slam but not win championship but for the development of the game as a spectator sport I think it would be a fair trade off and would encourage the best teams to develop their attacking game as well as the defensive aspect of their play.

Have bonus points apply but switch to the old school table if a team in on for a GS?

Mahatma Geansai

.ak wrote: »

Except he didn't cost us on the big day. You do realise he missed two very difficult kicks right? He's an 80% kicker and filled his brief. You're just buying the populace brief.

They weren't difficult by any means; the first was very easy and the second was 40 m out but straight in front of the posts. I don't think its any coincidence that the two kicks he missed were two kicks which could have seen us best Wales' points difference.

Kickers will always miss kicks. My worry is that Sexton missed those kicks because of the pressure he was under.

mr. pleasant

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I didn't read the post properly. It is irrelevant to what happened today though. If you want to bring it into the conversation, you'll also have to question every single moment of every single game Ireland played in this 6 N.

well, exactly!

it's over, ireland won. why and how we can now look at single instances to debate where Ireland _could_ have lost is not clear to me.

Shandashey

Such a wonderful day for Irish Rugby. Fair play to the lads.

.ak

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

He struggled with the pressure with two kicks to put us ahead of Wales on points difference. He's a fantastic player, but the pressure on the biggest occasions still affects his kicking at times.

No it doesn't.


You can't use those kicks to flog him when he makes the pressure kicks to put us ahead. Real poor use of stats.

.ak

DDC1990 wrote: »

Sorry! He could have cost us the championship by missing two kicks that he normally would get as did Madigan.

That doesn't mean that he didn't do a hundred great things through the championship. It simply means that through nerves or whatever, he missed two pretty easy kicks.

We got away with it which is great.

Lets hope that's the last we see of it.

No sour grapes just fact. I'm as happy as anyone that we are 6N champs, but that doesn't put any of our players beyond criticism .

Are you hoping to unearth a 100% kicker? Good luck with that.

P_1

.ak wrote: »

Are you hoping to unearth a 100% kicker? Good luck with that.

I've heard great things about that young Kickamontron5000 from Lexlip :P

WoollyRedHat

If Johnny was missing easy kicks on a constant basis, some people here might have a point.

But his kicking is generally great and don't forget that one of his kicks richoetted ofg the post. People need to get a grip and let it go, it's petty, we won, enjoy it.

mr. pleasant

.ak wrote: »

Are you hoping to unearth a 100% kicker? Good luck with that.

not only a 100% kicker but one that also does all the other stuff that sexton does.

why did Joe not think of that?

Mahatma Geansai

.ak wrote: »

No it doesn't.


You can't use those kicks to flog him when he makes the pressure kicks to put us ahead. Real poor use of stats.

So, you're saying that its a complete coincidence that he only missed kicks when it would have put us ahead? Extremely convenient stance.

JoeTheMuss

I hope they celebrate in whatever manner makes them happiest. Would like to think we can move on from "a piss up" being the only way to celebrate.[/QUOTE]

Well maybe they should all sit around and have tea and cup cakes and talk about their feelings.
Jeez lad there all big boys and are entitled to a few gargles to celebrate, by the look of things they were all well on their way at the presentation anyway.

.ak

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

They weren't difficult by any means; the first was very easy and the second was 40 m out but straight in front of the posts. I don't think its any coincidence that the two kicks he missed were two kicks which could have seen us best Wales' points difference.

Kickers will always miss kicks. My worry is that Sexton missed those kicks because of the pressure he was under.

Try kicking them yourself and tell me they're not difficult.

The one near the halfway line was especially difficult. The other hit the post ffs!!!

This is the most beautiful day in rugby did Ireland and people are giving out about an 80% kicker missing 20% of his kicks...

The_Kew_Tour

Bit of a blow in here as I'm more interested in Footie and other sports but would just like to Congratulate the Irish team today.

What a outstanding day of rugby and hope you guys who love yer rugby have great night and party.

The team seem like such nice bunch and the Coach is a humble man.

aimee1

JoeTheMuss wrote: »

I hope they celebrate in whatever manner makes them happiest. Would like to think we can move on from "a piss up" being the only way to celebrate.

Well maybe they should all sit around and have tea and cup cakes and talk about their feelings.
Jeez lad there all big boys and are entitled to a few gargles to celebrate, by the look of things they were all well on their way at the presentation anyway.[/QUOTE]

@boringkearney is having miwadi while fixing up the pitch after the game

.ak

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

So, you're saying that its a complete coincidence that he only missed kicks when it would have put us ahead? Extremely convenient stance.

Are you missing the kicks and points that out us ahead in other high pressure games, like last year?

Like I said the other week, out halves are doomed, because all the good kicks are ignored and only the bad kicks are focused on.

tritriagain

P_1 wrote: »

Have bonus points apply but switch to the old school table if a team in on for a GS?

Good idea never thought of that .if a team wins grand slam the win champ no matter what. SORTED.

Mahatma Geansai

.ak wrote: »

Try kicking them yourself and tell me they're not difficult.

The one near the halfway line was especially difficult. The other hit the post ffs!!!

This is the most beautiful day in rugby did Ireland and people are giving out about an 80% kicker missing 20% of his kicks...

Christ, there is no chance having a discussion if you're going to go down that nonsensical route. Its much too an emotional subject, apparently.

Hippo

.ak wrote: »

Are you missing the kicks and points that out us ahead in other high pressure games, like last year?

Like I said the other week, out halves are doomed, because all the good kicks are ignored and only the bad kicks are focused on.

AK it's just the usual tiresome provincial nonsense. Ignore.

Buer

I didn't think today could be any better.

And then I see the usual whingers having to struggle with not being able to blame a loss on Sexton.

Delicious.

.ak

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Christ, there is no chance having a discussion if you're going to go down that nonsensical route. Its much too an emotional subject, apparently.

Well yeah, you're looking to dissect the performance of our greatest ever outhalf on the day of our greatest ever achievement in the professional era? I'm sorry but for you that comes across as sour grapes for some reason rather than reasoned analysis, as I said if sexton was such a poor kicker we wouldn't be back to back six nations champions.

Tobyglen

Great to win, POC, SOB, POM, Heaslip all excellent. Crazy day.

Moving onto the WC,

Our Game was crying out for some more speed in our backs, Earls should come back- Trimble, maybe Gilroy is he can up his game? Move Kearney out of fullback because his pace is wilting. I would like to see Fitz at 13 and Henshaw at 12- Payne at FB, Earls & Bowe on the wings

As an aside, Sexton continues with to struggle with pressure kicks, last year v France aswell, AB match. He needs to improve his consistency.

Tobyglen

.ak wrote: »

Well yeah, you're looking to dissect the performance of our greatest ever outhalf on the day of our greatest ever achievement in the professional era? I'm sorry but for you that comes across as sour grapes for some reason rather than reasoned analysis, as I said if sexton was such a poor kicker we wouldn't be back to back six nations champions.

He's got a fair point. Sexton's kicking under pressure has been very suspect in big games. Just look at his international career for example, no doubting his class but he needs more consistency in his goal kicking. Look at Halfpenney as the model.

.ak

Tobyglen wrote: »

He's got a fair point. Sexton's kicking under pressure has been very suspect in big games. Just look at his international career for example, no doubting his class but he needs more consistency in his goal kicking. Look at Halfpenney as the model.

It's only a point if you discount the pressure kicks he's made.

Quint2010

Think it's a coincidence and a very Irish thing that people assume Sexton missed those kicks because it would have put us top of the table. He ran the game in every other respect with his marvellous passing and game management. Ireland won the tournament because their control at half back.

Mahatma Geansai

Welp, I'm off out to celebrate the win. If I keep posting I'll get banned for replying in kind to the barbs from good posters and moderators above.

Peregrine

Neil3030 wrote: »

Out of interest, did Madigan go from most accurate kicker in the tournament (1/1: 100%) to least accurate (1/2: 50%) with that single miss today? :pac:

I think Madigan got 3/4.

Even if Madigan was 50%, Haimona would probably be lower or roughly the same :pac:

Tobyglen

.ak wrote: »

It's only a point if you discount the pressure kicks he's made.

He missed 1 sitter and one very decent chance (for international class kicker) when the pressure came on to go beyond the Welsh total. Same in French game last year when we got out of jail.

Anyway, it's an aside. Great day all around but the previous poster has a definite point but today probably isn't the day for discussing it.

Tobyglen

Quint2010 wrote: »

Think it's a coincidence and a very Irish thing that people assume Sexton missed those kicks because it would have put us top of the table. He ran the game in every other respect with his marvellous passing and game management. Ireland won the tournament because their control at half back.

No, they won because they were the smartest team from 1-15. Our star players were SOB, POC. Our forwards did the business today.

bilston

.ak wrote: »

There weren't easy.

Ah now the first one he missed was very easy!

Not that I care a jot right now. He, along with all the lads was fantastic today.

aimee1

tritriagain wrote: »

I think after watching the games today with teams all chasing points bonus points have to be looked at. These were the best 3 games of the tournament by a mile. I know with bonus points a team could win the grand slam but not win championship but for the development of the game as a spectator sport I think it would be a fair trade off and would encourage the best teams to develop their attacking game as well as the defensive aspect of their play.

only have try bonus points. No LBP.

Tox56

Tobyglen wrote: »

No, they won because they were the smartest team from 1-15. Our star players were SOB, POC. Our forwards did the business today.

You are insane if you don't think our halfbacks were at least among our most important players, the one game they weren't on top of their game was the one we lost

JoeTheMuss

Tobyglen wrote: »

He's got a fair point. Sexton's kicking under pressure has been very suspect in big games. Just look at his international career for example, no doubting his class but he needs more consistency in his goal kicking. Look at Halfpenney as the model.

Sexton is constantly putting his body on the line and making big tackles, he must be the bravest outhalf Ive seen bar wilkinson, teams do target him cause he's so important to us. so if he makes a big hit then has to take a difficult pressure kick I'd cut him a bit of slack, besides Halfpenny had to make a big tackle today and had to go off.

Tobyglen

Tox56 wrote: »

You are insane if you don't think our halfbacks were at least among our most important players, the one game they weren't on top of their game was the one we lost

They were no doubt our most important players in the tournament-along with POC. I'm referring to today's match which is clear in my post. See word today for clarity.
Our best players today were all in the forwards.

None of our HB were the best players in their positions in the tournament. Ford & Bigger were better than Sexton. (Ford was incredible today)
Young's was better than Murray

jack o shea

Pure scandal that we are the only country in the world who doesnt play its national anthem before games.

Tobyglen

JoeTheMuss wrote: »

Sexton is constantly putting his body on the line and making big tackles, he must be the bravest outhalf Ive seen bar wilkinson, teams do target him cause he's so important to us. so if he makes a big hit then has to take a difficult pressure kick I'd cut him a bit of slack, besides Halfpenny had to make a big tackle today and had to go off.

Great player but had an average tournament (English game was by far his best). I don't think he was anywhere near 100% with his hammy and coming back from concussion. World cup will hopefully see him back to his best

Wang King

jack o shea wrote: »

Pure scandal that we are the only country in the world who doesnt play its national anthem before games.

Anyone have Joe Duffy's number lads?.... Anyone?

RuggieBear

no moaning about the anthems

Flipper22

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

So, you're saying that its a complete coincidence that he only missed kicks when it would have put us ahead? Extremely convenient stance.

We can't know why he missed. In the end he did put us ahead of Wales with a penalty, would you not agree that that goes against your argument?

Most kickers miss a kick or two in most games. Jonny is approximately an 80% kicker; not as good as some, but as good or better than most in test rugby, and as good a goal kicker as we've had. Today he kicked approx 80%, with perhaps a dodgy hammy. In most close matches, if the losing teams kicker had not missed any kicks they'd have won. This applies to any team. Today we won the championship, and your still nitpicking at Jonny for not being an exceptional international goal kicker.

It's hard to escape the feeling that you're desperate to criticise him for any reason. This puts you in the same bracket as those who think Zebo can't defend, or Earls is useless, or Heaslip is a showpony/Houdini.

Wang King

Flipper22 wrote: »

We can't know why he missed. In the end he did put us ahead of Wales with a penalty, would you not agree that that goes against your argument?

Most kickers miss a kick or two in most games. Jonny is approximately an 80% kicker; not as good as some, but as good or better than most in test rugby, and as good a goal kicker as we've had. Today he kicked approx 80%, with perhaps a dodgy hammy. In most close matches, if the losing teams kicker had not missed any kicks they'd have won. This applies to any team. Today we won the championship, and your still nitpicking at Jonny for not being an exceptional international goal kicker.

It's hard to escape the feeling that you're desperate to criticise him for any reason. This puts you in the same bracket as those who think Zebo can't defend, or Earls is useless, or Heaslip is a showpony/Houdini.

Regardless of someones provincial leaning, Sexton had 2 kicks to put Ireland into a winning position re the Welsh result, and he knew it. I think even he will come out later and say that was in the back of his mind and maybe upset his normal rhythm

jack o shea

If rory best and his mates dont want the anthem they should fcuk off.

banned

Buer

Balls it was average. He was excellent against England, excellent and MOTM against France, poor against Wales and very good against Scotland.

He had a really good tournament overall and underlined his importance to the side. We lost the one game he played poorly in.

Wang King

jack o shea wrote: »

If rory best and his mates dont want the anthem they should fcuk off.

Jesus lads! Can someone not help me out and get Joe Duffys number, this poor guy is going to shït his pants