Match Thread: Scotland v Ireland, Murrayfield, Sat 2.30pm **See Mod Warning Post #1**

SaveOurLyric

errlloyd wrote: »

This is the most controversial thing I have ever said on this board.

Yesterday was a day of rugby that was so enjoyable I think it'll stick with me for the rest of my life, and I think it was pretty close to unique, I don't think we'll see another 6n finish like that for a long time. So I'm actually glad we lost to Wales. We only have 2 grand slams ever, and I know people looking at the record books in 50 years won't understand how remarkable yesterday was, but what an amazing few hours.

Do you not think there was something a bit fake about it though? A bit like a penalty shoot out - exciting, dramatic, solves a deadlock problem, yes, but fundamentally not the 'real' game ?

The results of all 3 games were not in doubt long before their ends. All were helter skelter points chases rather than genuine contests betwen each pair of teams. The tactics of the 3 teams in the hunt, were, correctly of course given the rules, not true game winning ones. But hibrid points difference ones where the opposition they were really playing were not really the team on the pitch with them.

Its an oddment. A curiosity. One that we will remember fondly for its excitement and positive outcome for us. All 3 teams in contention made fair efforts at the odd game they had to play, and had their roll of the dice. But they just fell in the favour of Ireland.

Tobyglen

Fireball07 wrote: »

I wasn't impressed with Kearney yesterday either. I'm normally a fairly big fan of his but he can be very frustrating at times. I think the way we were playing yesterday where we were running a lot of ball from deep would have suited someone like Payne better.

Kearney was our poorest player in the tournament. FB has more space that anyone and he offered no running threat and was a passenger at times. Payne should get a run there with Fitz moved to 13. Badly need more pace in the backline, Earls/Zebo/Trimble/Gilroy back should be considered

aimee1

Tobyglen wrote: »

Kearney was our poorest player in the tournament. FB has more space that anyone and he offered no running threat and was a passenger at times. Payne should get a run there with Fitz moved to 13. Badly need more pace in the backline, Earls/Zebo/Trimble/Gilroy back should be considered

Kearney was working to the gameplan. Every return he made was to the best support option so ireland retained possession and got back into position.

.ak

Thought Kearney had a great tournament. I just think people don't appreciate what he brings to the team as a whole.

Tobyglen

aimee1 wrote: »

Kearney was working to the gameplan. Every return he made was to the best support option so ireland retained possession and got back into position.

Gameplan that meant not beating any defenders? Full backs have the field in front of them and should be your deadliest counter attack player. Kearney is fine in a defensive game but when it comes to counter attacking this season he has been nowhere. Swap Liam Williams, Halfpenny, Payne, Brown, Speeding, Hogg, Goode and we would have serious threats. Poorest FB in competition from an attacking point of view and he had loads of ball yesterday.

Buer

.ak wrote: »

Yeah biggar is a vastly underrated 10. He was ignored by gatland when he was in super form for Ospreys for years, he only got into the side through injury.

But for me, and I am biased, sexton was head and shoulders above the rest. Wales game aside he had a great tournament, he utterly dominated England France and Scotland, considering the midfield require time to gel and the way our backline game revolves around them I think sexton had to do a lot of babysitting. He did tremendously well all things considered and was the driving force behind Ireland being crowned champions.

Fords a great player potentially but he's inexperience showed for a lot of the tournament. He was quite poor for a lot of the tournament and was dire vs Ireland.

I'm also biased and would go for Sexton with Biggar close behind....I may even have Biggar in front. The rule of who laughs last is at play, currently. Things are too fresh and raw for people to be objective about the tournament. In a month, we can look back and evaluate the tournament more accurately, I suspect.

Ford had a good tournament but showed some lack of maturity (completely understandable) at times. Yesterday was his best showing in a game that suited him. But he was still blocked down a couple of times (as he was against Wales) and there was one really odd moment on turnover ball with 7 minutes left where he hoofed it long. You could hear the groans from the crowd. He has the potential to be the best in the world but has to work on some very achievable targets.

Biggar was a very tidy pivot for his team. Nothing fussy, just really effective. He passed well, ran well and his kicking from hand was central. When he was called upon unexpectedly to kick at goal, he was excellent. He was consistent throughout the tournament.

Sexton's copy book is blotted with the Welsh game. He had an off day undoubtedly and was outperformed by Biggar. But his physicality throughout the tournament gets him the nod for me. Given that he was struggling with fitness for the most part and hadn't played since November, he had a really good tournament. Not at the standard of last season but still very strong and underlined his importance.

My team overall for the tournament would be:

Hogg - Tidy in all aspects and a real threat in attack. Halfpenny was good but didn't offer anything close to the threat that Hogg did.
Huget - In a poxy side, he consistently did well despite having scraps to work with. Not a vintage tournament for wings so he gets in
Joseph - Had to be really although Davies had a strong tournament too.
Henshaw - As above although again his Welsh counterpart was very good
Nowell - He wasn't introduced until the latter half of the tournament but made his presence felt immediately and was a huge weapon for England
Sexton - Talisman for the champions and steered the ship to the big win yesterday required. Impressive tournaments for both Biggar and Ford though made promising watching for future Lions tours
Youngs - Could have been him, Webb or Murray but Youngs was electric in the last couple of weeks to squeak through. He was the biggest threat to Ireland's 6N yesterday
Vunipola - Bit of a default selection. Quiet tournament from Faletau, Chouly was poor, Denton didn't impress nor Beattie before him and Parisse showed flashes but is on the wane, in my opinion and the most impressive 40 minutes from an Italian back row was their first half without Parisse yesterday. Heaslip only played in 3 games and didn't look fully up to speed at times despite that tackle which will be replayed again and again.
Warburton - As much as I'd like to say SOB, Warburton was excellent. He was phenomenal against ourselves and finished with another strong showing yesterday, capped with a great try.
POM - Again something of a default selection. If Robshaw, SOB and Warburton all put their hands up at 7, there's a real lack of options at 6. POM had a quiet tournament compared to last year but was a freak for 30 minutes yesterday. Haskell was in pole position a couple of weeks ago but faded and his yellow card yesterday was the nail in the coffin to me.
POC - Couldn't be anyone else, really. He started off quietly but grew in presence, delivering a huge game last week and not far off again yesterday. Lawes was impressive but too little too late given his injury absences.
AWJ - Same as his lock partner, couldn't be anyone else. A phenomenal player and best lock in the northern hemisphere, in my opinion. He was one of the top 3 players on the field in every game, I believe. Two man of the match awards and I think he's an early contender to get a nomination for the IRB award.
Cole - Pig of a player and gets through so much work. He is a good scrummager, an utter pain at the breakdown and gets to far more rucks than he has any right to.
Guirado - A solid tournament, showing his work rate around the park and his talent in attack yesterday in particular. For a smaller front row forward, he was never bested physically.
McGrath - Harshly dropped for the final game but understandably when the replacement is Healy. He had a huge work rate and scrummaged strongly.

SaveOurLyric

Tobyglen wrote: »

Gameplan that meant not beating any defenders? Kearney is fine in a defensive game but when it comes to counter attacking this season he has been nowhere. Swap Liam Williams, Halfpenny, Payne, Brown, Speeding, Hogg, Goode and we would have serious threats. Poorest FB in competition from an attacking point of view and he had loads of ball yesterday.

Yards made or defenders beaten are useless measures to gauge Kearneys effectiveness. They are not relevant to our game plan.
Fielding cleanly, returning the ball to the best supported/least defended position in the defensive line, and recycling securely are the aims. Gauge him on how effective he is at this and success rate doing so, and you will see that he is playing superbly.
Of course, you might think he should be trying to do something different. But that is a question for Joe. You can only judge Kearney himself on how well he implements his coaches tactic.

Buer

Tobyglen wrote: »

Gameplan that meant not beating any defenders? Full backs have the field in front of them and should be your deadliest counter attack player. Kearney is fine in a defensive game but when it comes to counter attacking this season he has been nowhere. Swap Liam Williams, Halfpenny, Payne, Brown, Speeding, Hogg, Goode and we would have serious threats. Poorest FB in competition from an attacking point of view and he had loads of ball yesterday.

That's clearly not how he is used though. He's not a great counter attacker at all but it's pretty obvious he's used to take it back to his pack and set up a clean recycle over the gain line for Murray and Sexton.

I would think Schmidt is smart enough to know that if he wants an elusive runner, he'll go with someone else but he's looking for other aspects.

aimee1

Tobyglen wrote: »

Gameplan that meant not beating any defenders? Full backs have the field in front of them and should be your deadliest counter attack player. Kearney is fine in a defensive game but when it comes to counter attacking this season he has been nowhere. Swap Liam Williams, Halfpenny, Payne, Brown, Speeding, Hogg, Goode and we would have serious threats. Poorest FB in competition from an attacking point of view and he had loads of ball yesterday.

Well he always looks up and heads for where the support is. To me it seems he is working to instruction. No risk strategy.

Swiwi.

Pretty much agree with your selection there buer. Can't say it was a brilliant tournament for any front row players. A clone combining hogg & halfpenny would give the complete FB. Hogg is the (much) better attacking player but for all round FB play and reliability id still go for HP. Finds of the tournament were Henshaw & Joseph. You're not tempted to go with Stephen Jones and choose the Italian 9

irishbucsfan

What I've always loved about Kearney is how he pretty much gives you automatic dominance in the territory battle (slight overstatement, but he's incredibly strong in that area of the game). He has the perfect blend of great positional sense, a huge range of consistent kicking, and he is one of the best in the world in the air.

If you are playing against Kearney and you kick the ball, you have to either be sure of making touch or you can't risk putting the ball into the 22, if Kearney gets the ball back there you're going to be faced with 1st phase in your own half, there's just no value in it at all.

I'm gonna rewatch this now with BBC commentary so that it feels slightly different

captbarnacles

Huge competition between Joseph and Manu Tulilagi for outside centre if both are fit. Wonder can either play 12 and have both?

matthew8

I'd have Eddy Ben Arous in my team of the tournament. I thought he was outstanding, a real bright spot for France and caused us a lot of problems.

irishbucsfan

captbarnacles wrote: »

Huge competition between Joseph and Manu Tulilagi for outside centre if both are fit. Wonder can either play 12 and have both?

Tuilagi can play 12, and I think we'll see England try that if both are fit.

Buer

captbarnacles wrote: »

Huge competition between Joseph and Manu Tulilagi for outside centre if both are fit. Wonder can either play 12 and have both?

Tuilagi has played there and is good there; he lined out inside BOD for the Lions and he had a cracker. Burrell out, Tuilagi at 12 and Joseph at 13 is what I'd like to see.

Buer

Swiwi. wrote: »

Pretty much agree with your selection there buer. Can't say it was a brilliant tournament for any front row players. A clone combining hogg & halfpenny would give the complete FB. Hogg is the (much) better attacking player but for all round FB play and reliability id still go for HP. Finds of the tournament were Henshaw & Joseph. You're not tempted to go with Stephen Jones and choose the Italian 9

I wrestled with that dilemma for a full nanosecond.

Buer

matthew8 wrote: »

I'd have Eddy Ben Arous in my team of the tournament. I thought he was outstanding, a real bright spot for France and caused us a lot of problems.

I was very close to putting him in but only starting 3 games cost him, for me. Still a strong case though and maybe I should have him in my side.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm gonna rewatch this now with BBC commentary so that it feels slightly different

That first restart when the ball bounced :eek::eek::eek:

I thought it was going to be a bad day at the office

Swiwi.

Buer wrote: »

I wrestled with that dilemma for a full nanosecond.

So you did think about it then?

(puts Buer onto ignore list)

Wang King

Wang King wrote: »

From sky

Wow. Serious sour grapes there and really bad form for saying it.

I was disappointed with Italy and I felt Scotland threw in the towel a little bit but if I was a player in Brown's situation i'd never say anything like that.

Tobyglen

Buer wrote: »

That's clearly not how he is used though. He's not a great counter attacker at all but it's pretty obvious he's used to take it back to his pack and set up a clean recycle over the gain line for Murray and Sexton.

I would think Schmidt is smart enough to know that if he wants an elusive runner, he'll go with someone else but he's looking for other aspects.

Game plan changed yesterday and he couldn't make any yards. Not true what you say either either because he has taken plenty of ball into contact in other games and has been unable to beat defenders. The per-requisite is to retain the ball but you would hope the FB will break the first line of defense when running the ball back and Kearney has failed to do this all tournament. If the gameplan changes from kick chase then Kearney will lose his place because from an attacking point of view he's doesn't have as much to offer as Payne and other potential options.

I would compare Kearney to Halfpenny, Halfpenny went off in the Italy game injured and Lee Williams moved into his spot and that changed their counter attack option immediately. Halfpenny is very solid in every department but lacks top end speed similar to Kearney which is key to playing an attacking game.

Wang King

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Wow. Serious sour grapes there and really bad form for saying it.

I was disappointed with Italy and I felt Scotland threw in the towel a little bit but if I was a player in Brown's situation i'd never say anything like that.

Another reason why the last round of games should be played at the same time, both Italy and Scotland's integrity are being called into question after those games from certain quarters.

aimee1

Tobyglen wrote: »

Game plan changed yesterday and he couldn't make any yards. Not exactly true what you say either either because he has taken plenty of ball into contact and has been unable to beat defenders. The pre-requisite is to retain the ball but you would hope the FB will break the first line of defence when running the ball back and Kearney has failed to do this all tournament.

Kearney did very well to set up the ruck for POCs try, and he ran a great decoy line when Payne scored.

Kearney is clearly running the ball back into traffic because he is under instruction to do so. Dont get isolated and risk giving the ball away, or a penalty. Sure we have not offloaded much in this tournament either. Low risk strategy.

aimee1

Wang King wrote: »

Another reason why the last round of games should be played at the same time, both Ital and Scotland's integrity are being called into question after those games from certain quarters.

france shipped 55 points and they turned up apparently.

Italy were 1 point behind at half time and have 2 men binned in 2nd half as wales run amok. They scored their 2nd highest total of the tournament and get accused of giving up. Ridiculous.

If england didnt concede 3 soft tries to Italy, or if they converted a few of the 17 line breaks against scotland they wouldnt have had to chase more then 10-12 point win.

rrpc

Tobyglen wrote: »

I would compare Kearney to Halfpenny, Halfpenny went off in the Italy game injured and Lee Williams moved into his spot and that changed their counter attack option immediately. Halfpenny is very solid in every department but lacks top end speed similar to Kearney which is key to playing an attacking game.

Liam Williams is a very good winger but he had plenty of space, what with playing against 14 men for twenty minutes.

Fireball07

Swiwi. wrote: »

So you did think about it then?

(puts Buer onto ignore list)

I actually think Botes was pretty decent tbh.


My team of the tournament would probably be very similar to Buer's, although I think he only picked 14 players...

On the wing, Huget was decent in a mixed French team but I think Watson & Nowell were impressive throughout, while Liam Williams had a very solid tournament in general. Tommy Seymour impressed me at times. And Sarto is an excellent player imo, although some of his defensive efforts were shocking.

I'm not sure about POM either, it wasn't a vintage year for 6s in general and a good few people were saying he should be dropped (I didn't exactly agree with them) and he had a quiet enough tournament. Now, who else would you pick? I think that the work rate of Minto is worth a mention... Italy weren't great but he really impressed me, I must say.

Full-back, out-half and scrum-half were all very close... I actually don't know who I'd pick at 9- Murray, Youngs and Webb were all very good.


I'd probably go:

15. Stuart Hogg
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jonathan Joseph
12. Robbie Henshaw
11. Jack Nowell
10. Jonathan Sexton
9. Rhys Webb
8. Billy Vunipola
7. Sam Warburton
6. Francesco Minto
5. Paul O'Connell
4. Alun Wyn Jones
3. Dan Cole
2. Guillaum Guirado
1. Jack McGrath

That has a representative from every country- 4 Irish, 5 English, 3 Welsh, 1 Scot, 1 Frenchman and an Italian.

And for a bonus, a bench of: Ghiraldini, Marler, Mas, Charteris, Robshaw, Youngs, Biggar, Williams



And Player of the Tournament would be the one and only Paul O'Connell.

Buer

You're right. I've put Nowell in. He was my first choice winger, completely forgot to type him in when thinking about who the other winger was!

irishbucsfan

Fireball07 wrote: »

I actually think Botes was pretty decent tbh.

Gori?

Swiwi's joke is that Stephen Jones picked him in his team of the tournament.

Fireball07

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Gori?

Swiwi's joke is that Stephen Jones picked him in his team of the tournament.

Oops yeah, that's the fella I meant.


I saw that but I just don't think it's as outrageous as Swiwi makes out. Admittedly, I only saw highlights of their game against France if he was particularly bad then. He's decent imo.

aimee1

Fireball07 wrote: »

And Player of the Tournament would be the one and only Paul O'Connell.

martyn williams and jonathon davies picked POC on scrum v this evening for player of the tournament. JD in particular was very complimentary towards ireland

kidneyfan

Murray cost us the slam (IMO) I know Reddan isn't Georgie Gregan but at least he can play scrum half.

Swiwi.

Fireball07 wrote: »

Oops yeah, that's the fella I meant.


I saw that but I just don't think it's as outrageous as Swiwi makes out. Admittedly, I only saw highlights of their game against France if he was particularly bad then. He's decent imo.

It's one thing to be decent, it's another to be apparently the best 9 of the competition. You'd swap Gori for Murray at Munster, would you?

Tobyglen

kidneyfan wrote: »

Murray cost us the slam (IMO) I know Reddan isn't Georgie Gregan but at least he can play scrum half.

I think you'll find Wales might have been the reason. Do keep up.

Tobyglen

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Gori?

Swiwi's joke is that Stephen Jones picked him in his team of the tournament.

Why people even quote that gob****e is beyond me. A WUM and a poor one at that.

Bridge93

Wales Online and Stephen Jones have both packed teams of the tournament with Welshies or Italians and few to little winners. We should get Neil Francis to wipe his arse with Jones team then name his with 10 Irish.

donfers

Bridge93 wrote: »

Wales Online and Stephen Jones have both packed teams of the tournament with Welshies or Italians and few to little winners. We should get Neil Francis to wipe his arse with Jones team then name his with 10 Irish.

yup - we must be an unbelievable side when most of our players are only average this year and we win the thing out

That and Wales playing like a minnow in a FA cup tie against a top 4 side, scraping the win after dodgy refereeing decisions and last-ditch defending and then the ecstatic celebrations - yes we're very very good

Brian017

Bridge93 wrote: »

Wales Online and Stephen Jones have both packed teams of the tournament with Welshies or Italians and few to little winners. We should get Neil Francis to wipe his arse with Jones team then name his with 10 Irish.

Any team of the tournament with a Italian in it given what they served up yesterday shouldn't be taken too seriously

shuffol

Surprised to see people picking Nowell, only played 3 games and didn't really feature much against us.

duckysauce

shuffol wrote: »

Surprised to see people picking Nowell, only played 3 games and didn't really feature much against us.

he is good if there is an empty pitch ahead of him

duckysauce

.ak wrote: »

Still getting over how good yesterday was. Spending the day in a pub in Killarney with absolutely beautiful weather, great pints, the place full of about 30 scots on tour, the bag pipes, the sheer craic, the first Italian try, then the lows of an awesome display of power from George North, quickly picked up by Sarto's try... The place went mad as if we won already, it just made the point difference feel so much different those 7 points.

Onto the next game, the scots playing flower of Scotland out on the road with the pipes. They were cheering on Scotland but told us they wanted us to win and sort of hoped we'd hammer them to deny Wales or England the win. They have gave a rendition of shoulder to shoulder on the pipes! The weather seemed to be replicated, the pub owner kept all the blinds up and windows open, it was a cracker out and it felt like a summers day and the pints were going down sweetly and Ireland were playing with pomp. Fitzgerald, Henshaw, O'Brien, OConnel, Sexton and Bowe were all putting in MoTM performances. A joy to watch. The innkeeper ringing the last orders bell for every score.

Then onto the absolute rollercoaster of a last game. The food almost in touch. The missed knock on. The too and fro score line. The innkeeper ringing the bell for every french score. The absolute madness at the end. I almost smashed a stool in my excitement, think I may have even gotten a wee bit emotional, my missus found that hilarious! Then Rte showing the presentation, it felt even sweeter than last year. The scots were delighted, the pub was in full swing now.

And then Rte showed Jurrassic Park.

There are few days you can really consider your best, but if I ever have kids or get married they'll do well to beat that!

:cool: what pub was it ?

duckysauce

kidneyfan wrote: »

Murray cost us the slam (IMO) I know Reddan isn't Georgie Gregan but at least he can play scrum half.

how did he do that ?

stephen_n

Buer wrote: »

Tuilagi has played there and is good there; he lined out inside BOD for the Lions and he had a cracker. Burrell out, Tuilagi at 12 and Joseph at 13 is what I'd like to see.

Not against us I hope! That would be a fairly dangerous combination of power and speed.

Fireball07

Swiwi. wrote: »

It's one thing to be decent, it's another to be apparently the best 9 of the competition. You'd swap Gori for Murray at Munster, would you?

Well obviously not, but I wouldn't swap Murray for everyone. But Murray wasn't at his top class game in all of the 5 games.

jm08

Rugby.net 's Top Players of 6Ns by a point system.

1. Joe Marler (1269 pts)* / Jack McGrath (1130)
2. Rory Best (830)*
3. Dan Cole (1259) / Mike Ross (1134)
4. AW Jones (1169 pts) / Devin Toner 1065
5. Paul O’Connell (1255)*
6. Peter O’Mahony (1226)
7. Chris Robshaw (1479)* / Sean O’Brien (1103)
8. Billy Vunipola (2050)* Heislip 588 / Jordi Murphy 830
9. Conor Murray (1392 pts)*
10. George Ford (2300 pts)* Sexton (1003)
11. Jack Nowell (1319)* / Zebo 566
12. Robbie Henshaw (1311)
13. Jonathan Joseph (1648)* / Jared Payne (1293)
14. Anthony Watson (1109) / Tommy Bowe (1010)
15. Stuart Hogg (1075) * / Rob Kearney (829)


*Means they topped their position over the tournament (for example, Chris Robshaw was best flanker) of the 6Ns (Both 6 & 7). I've included the points of Ireland for comparison with the best.



George Ford has an unbelievably good score. Hookers are not much use at the moment.



http://www.rugby.net/s/voE6Bk2R8MX#Fx:c=5162199223894016&l=5840195337322496

errlloyd

jm08 wrote: »

Rugby.net 's Top Players of 6Ns by a point system.

1. Joe Marler (1269 pts)* / Jack McGrath (1130)
2. Rory Best (830)*
3. Dan Cole (1259) / Mike Ross (1134)
4. AW Jones (1169 pts) / Devin Toner 1065
5. Paul O’Connell (1255)*
6. Peter O’Mahony (1226)
7. Chris Robshaw (1479)* / Sean O’Brien (1103)
8. Billy Vunipola (2050)* Heislip 588 / Jordi Murphy 830
9. Conor Murray (1392 pts)*
10. George Ford (2300 pts)* Sexton (1003)
11. Jack Nowell (1319)* / Zebo 566
12. Robbie Henshaw (1311)
13. Jonathan Joseph (1648)* / Jared Payne (1293)
14. Anthony Watson (1109) / Tommy Bowe (1010)
15. Stuart Hogg (1075) * / Rob Kearney (829)


*Means they topped their position over the tournament (for example, Chris Robshaw was best flanker) of the 6Ns (Both 6 & 7). I've included the points of Ireland for comparison with the best.



George Ford has an unbelievably good score. Hookers are not much use at the moment.



http://www.rugby.net/s/voE6Bk2R8MX#Fx:c=5162199223894016&l=5840195337322496

He was outstanding, and his goal kicking percentages were great. But it helps that he played all 5 games. Which is true of many of the names there.

jm08

errlloyd wrote: »

He was outstanding, and his goal kicking percentages were great. But it helps that he played all 5 games. Which is true of many of the names there.

Ford was very consistent. He has double the points of most of them who have also played all the games.

Bridge93

I would've thought naturally a 10 would pick up more points than other positions. They score more points and are in the game the most. Still a top effort from him

errlloyd

jm08 wrote: »

Ford was very consistent. He has double the points of most of them who have also played all the games.

Well the only other outhalf who played all 5 was Biggar, and he's not a goal kicker. Haimona played 4, and got injured early in one of those, Sexton played 4, Lopez played 4 and didn't always kick, and Russell played 4 and didn't always kick.

I mean he also got a bunch of tries and assists, he would have topped it anyway.

duckysauce

Ford bagged 2 trys aswell nippy little sod