Match Thread: Scotland v Ireland, Murrayfield, Sat 2.30pm **See Mod Warning Post #1**

duckysauce

Tualagi coming back and launch in the forwards will juice it up for England -- WC here we come

.ak

duckysauce wrote: »

:cool: what pub was it ?

The failte

Wasn't planning on going there but walked past it and stuck our head in and saw about 20 scots drinking a table full of Guiness at like 11:50 in the morning, and I said to the missus we'd be mad not go here!

rrpc

errlloyd wrote: »

He was outstanding, and his goal kicking percentages were great. But it helps that he played all 5 games. Which is true of many of the names there.

They actually weren't that great. His percentages for the tournament was 76% (26/34) whereas Sexton's was 84% (22/26).

He also scored a drop goal as well as the two tries.

.ak

The game on Saturday suited him, but he made a load of mistakes too; charge downs, kicking out on the full, etc.

TBH I think it'll be a few years before he's considered a top quality OH.

Buer

jm08 wrote: »

Rugby.net 's Top Players of 6Ns by a point system.

1. Joe Marler (1269 pts)* / Jack McGrath (1130)
2. Rory Best (830)*
3. Dan Cole (1259) / Mike Ross (1134)
4. AW Jones (1169 pts) / Devin Toner 1065
5. Paul O’Connell (1255)*
6. Peter O’Mahony (1226)
7. Chris Robshaw (1479)* / Sean O’Brien (1103)
8. Billy Vunipola (2050)* Heislip 588 / Jordi Murphy 830
9. Conor Murray (1392 pts)*
10. George Ford (2300 pts)* Sexton (1003)
11. Jack Nowell (1319)* / Zebo 566
12. Robbie Henshaw (1311)
13. Jonathan Joseph (1648)* / Jared Payne (1293)
14. Anthony Watson (1109) / Tommy Bowe (1010)
15. Stuart Hogg (1075) * / Rob Kearney (829)


*Means they topped their position over the tournament (for example, Chris Robshaw was best flanker) of the 6Ns (Both 6 & 7). I've included the points of Ireland for comparison with the best.



George Ford has an unbelievably good score. Hookers are not much use at the moment.



http://www.rugby.net/s/voE6Bk2R8MX#Fx:c=5162199223894016&l=5840195337322496

It's hard to put any stock in this sort of analysis, really. For example, in the Ireland vs Wales game, only 2 Irish players make the top 10 and neither are POC (Payne and SOB). POC was clearly the best in green on the pitch by a mile. AWJ, a deserved MOTM against Italy, was only 7th best against Italy according to these figures.

Our win against France, where Sexton was MOTM, doesn't even have him in the top 10. Devin Toner was the best player on the field, supposedly.

When we played England, George Ford was apparently the 4th best player on the field. He was probably the 30th best player and had his worst showing of the tournament by a distance.

Buer

.ak wrote: »

The game on Saturday suited him, but he made a load of mistakes too; charge downs, kicking out on the full, etc.

TBH I think it'll be a few years before he's considered a top quality OH.

Maybe a little harsh. For his debut 6N, he was excellent. Obviously he has some things to work on. He must have been charged down 5 or 6 times in the tournament. Either he needs to work on getting the ball away more quickly or needs to stand deeper for clearing kicks. But that's an adjustment to the increased speed of test rugby that's readily achievable.

I would say he's going to be an option for England for many years to come but I'll hold off on proclaiming him to be the messiah yet. The big test will be in the next 12 months. His card is marked now and teams will look to shackle him and target him. There was a near identical buzz around Owen Farrell who was even younger when he was nominated for the IRB award but his start has dimmed considerably.

jm08

Buer wrote: »

It's hard to put any stock in this sort of analysis, really. For example, in the Ireland vs Wales game, only 2 Irish players make the top 10 and neither are POC (Payne and SOB). POC was clearly the best in green on the pitch by a mile. AWJ, a deserved MOTM against Italy, was only 7th best against Italy according to these figures.

Our win against France, where Sexton was MOTM, doesn't even have him in the top 10. Devin Toner was the best player on the field, supposedly.

When we played England, George Ford was apparently the 4th best player on the field. He was probably the 30th best player and had his worst showing of the tournament by a distance.

I would have thought the poor showing of the Irish v Wales would indeed have reflected the poor performance of the team in attack. The Irish lineout was very poor against Wales, so that is where POC would have lost a lot of points.

Sexton got MOTM v France because he played reasonably well after a very long layoff. MOTM is one person's opinion - thats all.

George Ford is always a threat. v us he managed 2 clean breaks, and beat 4 defenders with 2 offloads. He also made 10 tackles (missing 3) and carried 11 times for 49 metres. His game management could have been better, but he is still very young.

TommyOM

jm08 wrote: »

I would have thought the poor showing of the Irish v Wales would indeed have reflected the poor performance of the team in attack. The Irish lineout was very poor against Wales, so that is where POC would have lost a lot of points.

Sexton got MOTM v France because he played reasonably well after a very long layoff. MOTM is one person's opinion - thats all.

George Ford is always a threat. v us he managed 2 clean breaks, and beat 4 defenders with 2 offloads. He also made 10 tackles (missing 3) and carried 11 times for 49 metres. His game management could have been better, but he is still very young.

You really are desperate to put down Sexton aren't you?

jm08

TommyOM wrote: »

You really are desperate to put down Sexton aren't you?

Anything but. He obviously wasn't fully fit for the tournament.

Synode

He didn't look 100% but he was still class

BoardsMember

TommyOM wrote: »

You really are desperate to put down Sexton aren't you?

jm08 wrote: »

Anything but. He obviously wasn't fully fit for the tournament.

I'd agree that he hasn't looked completely fit, he just didn't look quite right, particularly in the Scotland game. He looked fine against England and France. That said, he's still been one of our most important players.

Taco Corp

jm08 wrote: »

Anything but. He obviously wasn't fully fit for the tournament.

And was still the best option

rrpc

jm08 wrote: »

Sexton got MOTM v France because he played reasonably well after a very long layoff. MOTM is one person's opinion - thats all.

Against France he was 100% on place kicks and along with Murray ran the game impeccably. That's why he got MoTM.

TommyOM

rrpc wrote: »

Against France he was 100% on place kicks and along with Murray ran the game impeccably. That's why he got MoTM.

Added to that many people were calling Sexton MOTM and the French newspapers reacted similarly. So no jm08 it wasn't just 'one man's opinion' no matter how much you want it to be. The fact is that Sexton was the best player on the pitch that day and was the biggest reason that Ireland beat France.

Buer

jm08 wrote: »

I would have thought the poor showing of the Irish v Wales would indeed have reflected the poor performance of the team in attack. The Irish lineout was very poor against Wales, so that is where POC would have lost a lot of points.

Sexton got MOTM v France because he played reasonably well after a very long layoff. MOTM is one person's opinion - thats all.

George Ford is always a threat. v us he managed 2 clean breaks, and beat 4 defenders with 2 offloads. He also made 10 tackles (missing 3) and carried 11 times for 49 metres. His game management could have been better, but he is still very young.

That just completely underlines why this is flawed. A narrow band of statistics doesn't give close to an accurate picture of a performance. It has been widely acknowledged that Ford played poorly that day. If he made a clean break, beating 4 defenders and finished it with an offload, it would give him the bulk of those stats and he could sit in the stands for the remaining 75 minutes.

Under this rating system, ROG would be non-existent in the ratings for the majority of his games despite being a class act. It appears to go on tackles made, yards gained, tries/assists, line outs and clean breaks. Wingers and particularly front row players are way too underrated because of it.

Ardillaun

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Tuilagi can play 12, and I think we'll see England try that if both are fit.

That would be great to see. My only query on that line-up would be on defence.

Riskymove

.ak wrote: »

Still getting over how good yesterday was. ...........There are few days you can really consider your best, but if I ever have kids or get married they'll do well to beat that!

Late to this as only back home from Scotland last night

It was an amazing day and like someone else said probably even better that it ended the way it did rather than an Ireland Grand Slam win (which would have been great obviously...but this day was something else)

we stayed in Murrayfield and the atmosphere of 6 or 7 thousand fans watching the England Game won't be forgotten quickly followed by the trophy presentation and fireworks etc.

I've been at big games and the last day of a Ryder Cup etc. but this day certainly topped all.

......maybe the RWC Final to top it??? we can dream

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

I would have thought the poor showing of the Irish v Wales would indeed have reflected the poor performance of the team in attack. The Irish lineout was very poor against Wales, so that is where POC would have lost a lot of points.

Sexton got MOTM v France because he played reasonably well after a very long layoff. MOTM is one person's opinion - thats all.

George Ford is always a threat. v us he managed 2 clean breaks, and beat 4 defenders with 2 offloads. He also made 10 tackles (missing 3) and carried 11 times for 49 metres. His game management could have been better, but he is still very young.

MoM awards are a sponsors and media thing. Its an interview opportunity after the game with sponsors logos behind the player etc. They mean feck all really.

Ireland did a lot right against wales. It was 5/6/7 big errors coupled to a ref who was very erratic which cost us. We cut those errors out and we win that game comfortably.

shuffol

Can anybody tell me when was the last time POC scored for Ireland before Saturday.

SaveOurLyric

Riskymove wrote: »

......maybe the RWC Final to top it??? we can dream

No dream. Its an imminent reality.

SaveOurLyric

Buer wrote: »

That just completely underlines why this is flawed. A narrow band of statistics doesn't give close to an accurate picture of a performance. It has been widely acknowledged that Ford played poorly that day. If he made a clean break, beating 4 defenders and finished it with an offload, it would give him the bulk of those stats and he could sit in the stands for the remaining 75 minutes.

Under this rating system, ROG would be non-existent in the ratings for the majority of his games despite being a class act. It appears to go on tackles made, yards gained, tries/assists, line outs and clean breaks. Wingers and particularly front row players are way too underrated because of it.

These ratings are a nonsense. Only the coaching team can rate players correctly. To do so, you have to know exactly what each player has been asked to do, what the team strategy is, how many times they are involved in plays and to what extent. And so they can only be judged against how well they met those targets. Getting or not getting a try, making yards, etc are meaningless when comparing players who are not given the same targets. Which within a team, let alone between different teams, no two players are.

Buer

shuffol wrote: »

Can anybody tell me when was the last time POC scored for Ireland before Saturday.

He has scored 7 international tries:

- 3/2/2002 vs Wales (on his debut)
- 16/8/2003 vs Wales (twice)
- 12/2/2005 vs Scotland
- 17/6/2006 vs NZ
- 26/11/2006 vs Pacific Islands
- 21/3/2015 vs Scotland

errlloyd

Buer wrote: »

He has scored 7 international tries:

- 3/2/2002 vs Wales (on his debut)
- 16/8/2003 vs Wales (twice)
- 12/2/2005 vs Scotland
- 17/6/2006 vs NZ
- 26/11/2006 vs Pacific Islands
- 21/3/2015 vs Scotland

Interesting, his last try for Ireland was on Jamie Heaslip and Luke Fitzgerald's debut.

Mahatma Geansai

errlloyd wrote: »

Interesting, his last try for Ireland was on Jamie Heaslip and Luke Fitzgerald's debut.

Also interesting: when you round it to two decimal places, POC's tries per cap (0.07) is the same as Fitzgerald's (0.07).

The more you know :pac::D.

Teferi

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Also interesting: when you round it to two decimal places, POC's tries per cap (0.07) is the same as Fitzgerald's (0.07).

The more you know :pac::D.

You must be raging that Fitz had an absolute stormer on the weekend.

Mahatma Geansai

Teferi wrote: »

You must be raging that Fitz had an absolute stormer on the weekend.

Why?

He's a good player and he had a good game.

Teferi

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Why?

Because of your continuing attacks on Fitzgerald.

Obviously.

.ak

Nope... before it starts drop it both of you please.

Fireball07

I think he needs one more try to go level with Big Mal as the 2nd row with the most tries for Ireland.

rrpc

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Why?

He's a good player and he had a good game.

I was delighted to see him go well, especially in how he linked up with Henshaw and Payne. It wasn't perfect and there was a bit more room than in the previous matches, so I would like to see how he worked out in a tighter game.

We still need to get Earls on the pitch as well and probably one of Kearney, Trimble or Gilroy too before the RWC

.ak

Fitz had a few errors in the game, but I think they were expected due to his lay off, he wasn't even playing much club rugby around the campaign either, last game being the Scarlets which wasn't a great day for moving the ball..

But his game was extremely positive, his awareness of space is brilliant. His ability to step at speed is probably unmatched in the country, Gilroy possibly has the closest ability there, but for me it's his linking as you say rrpc. Joe likes his wingers to come infield and link up, we saw Bowe doing a great job of it in the last two games and Fitz had some brilliant moments too, my favourite was one of his breaks he gathers the ball, gets tackled, has the awareness to move his body in a position not to go into touch AND simultaneously gets the offload away to Henshaw. There's very few players in the country, let alone Europe, that has that sort of skillset. Such a pity we rarely get to see him green due to injury.

SaveOurLyric

rrpc wrote: »

I was delighted to see him go well, especially in how he linked up with Henshaw and Payne. It wasn't perfect and there was a bit more room than in the previous matches, so I would like to see how he worked out in a tighter game.

We still need to get Earls on the pitch as well and probably one of Kearney, Trimble or Gilroy too before the RWC

Trimble is the one we could use. Bowe, Trimble, Fitz, Zebo, is the pecking order bar injuries. Earls, Kearney, McFadden after that for the minnow games or injury blight.
Gilroy's day is done. Too small for the Joe game, and his tricky swerviness doesnt outweigh the all round package of any of those above.
Earls has more chance as a centre in an injury or minor game situation.

Digifriendly

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Trimble is the one we could use. Bowe, Trimble, Fitz, Zebo, is the pecking order bar injuries. Earls, Kearney, McFadden after that for the minnow games or injury blight.
Gilroy's day is done. Too small for the Joe game, and his tricky swerviness doesnt outweigh the all round package of any of those above.
Earls has more chance as a centre in an injury or minor game situation.

Don't disagree with your pecking order but I think there are a few Ulster supporters who might disagree with you re Gilroy. Remember he can play full back as well as wing.

molloyjh

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Trimble is the one we could use. Bowe, Trimble, Fitz, Zebo, is the pecking order bar injuries. Earls, Kearney, McFadden after that for the minnow games or injury blight.
Gilroy's day is done. Too small for the Joe game, and his tricky swerviness doesnt outweigh the all round package of any of those above.
Earls has more chance as a centre in an injury or minor game situation.

Zebo did has done a huge amount of work on his game and by and large impressed over the 6 Nations, but he's still behind Earls for me who is a top class international winger.

thomond2006

molloyjh wrote: »

Zebo did has done a huge amount of work on his game and by and large impressed over the 6 Nations, but he's still behind Earls for me who is a top class international winger.

Probably more for the team thread but Earls will almost certainly see out the season at 13.

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

Probably more for the team thread but Earls will almost certainly see out the season at 13.

As could Fitz. It'll be interesting to see what that means for both in the summer.

.ak

And indeed Payne could play the rest of his games at 15, and Henshaw at 13.

Kinda funny that. But just goes to show it makes no difference and Joe will play them where he sees them being the biggest strength to our team.

Big Nelly

In work I have the pleasure of dealing with some guys from the UK daily. Just off a call and it is the 6th time I have heard that it was a great win for Ireland but it is a pity that only France turned up for the last day and put up any sort of challenge....seems like Mike Browns little comment is now the answer to why England lost the 6 nations...

I just laugh at them and say it is great as back to back winners!!!

sydthebeat

Frances most structured and best performance, in my opinion, was against us !

matthew8

If showing up is conceding 55 points I'd hate to see them when they play bad. Some of the stuff was shambolic.

Pudsy33

Yeah the no showing up argument is completely ****e. France were shambolic and if England had defended semi-competently they would be champions.

Big Nelly

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Yeah the no showing up argument is completely ****e. France were shambolic and if England had defended semi-competently they would be champions.

100% agree, just a touch of sore losers off them.....

I did say to one of the guys that after 4 years of nearly men it is about time to start looking at themselves and not anyone else

Touched a bit of a raw nerve there

I also reminded one of the guys last year he said that France had not shown up for the Ireland match.....:P

BoardsMember

Ireland, England and Wales just playing each other still has Ireland winning. All won one, lost one. Ireland have a points diff of +3, Wales of +2 and England of -5.

.ak

BoardsMember wrote: »

Ireland, England and Wales just playing each other still has Ireland winning. All won one, lost one. Ireland have a points diff of +3, Wales of +2 and England of -5.

Interesting, that's close enough to the actual figures! Separating them on point differences no matter which way you spin it.

molloyjh

England lost the 6 Nations against Scotland. Scotland were there for the taking in Twickenham and England had 5 or 6 try scoring opportunities where they came away with nothing. The Scots were just as bad against us, we were just more clinical on the day than England had been. Had England run up the score they should have they would have been all but out of sight on the last day.

Of course that they conceded so much against France was a huge issue as well, but they were fighting a real uphill battle at that stage.

BoardsMember

.ak wrote: »

Interesting, that's close enough to the actual figures! Separating them on point differences no matter which way you spin it.

QED

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

England lost the 6 Nations against Scotland. Scotland were there for the taking in Twickenham and England had 5 or 6 try scoring opportunities where they came away with nothing. The Scots were just as bad against us, we were just more clinical on the day than England had been. Had England run up the score they should have they would have been all but out of sight on the last day.

Of course that they conceded so much against France was a huge issue as well, but they were fighting a real uphill battle at that stage.

Well the head to head is interesting for me - the advantages of being at home to Scotland and Italy can't be overlooked.

I don't really subscribe to the idea that England 'lost' the championship, but rather Ireland won it - by doing what they needed to do, scoring a load of points and defending whilst doing it, even when losing against Wales.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

Well the head to head is interesting for me - the advantages of being at home to Scotland and Italy can't be overlooked.

I don't really subscribe to the idea that England 'lost' the championship, but rather Ireland won it - by doing what they needed to do, scoring a load of points and defending whilst doing it, even when losing against Wales.

Yeah but had England put another 15-20 on Scotland (which they could and possibly should have done) we would have gone into the last weekend needing to make up 20-25 points just to nudge ourselves in front. And that would have ignored whatever margin England managed on France after that.

We won it in Round 5, but England lost it in Round 4. Had they done what they should have done then we'd have been fighting a massively uphill battle and they'd have had a far greater advantage playing last than they really did.

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

Yeah but had England put another 15-20 on Scotland (which they could and possibly should have done) we would have gone into the last weekend needing to make up 20-25 points just to nudge ourselves in front. And that would have ignored whatever margin England managed on France after that.

We won it in Round 5, but England lost it in Round 4. Had they done what they should have done then we'd have been fighting a massively uphill battle and they'd have had a far greater advantage playing last than they really did.

I still don't look it at like that if I'm being honest. It wasn't like the English were just tripping over their shoelaces, a lot of those tries were stopped because of very good Scottish scramble defence.

stephen_n

.ak wrote: »

I still don't look it at like that if I'm being honest. It wasn't like the English were just tripping over their shoelaces, a lot of those tries were stopped because of very good Scottish scramble defence.

With the acception of the first one Burrell butchered, that had nothing to do with good defense