Reputable places to get Puppy

JJJJNR

andreac wrote: »

Gael you would be better off saving for your pup for longer and go to a reputable breeder. 600 is cheap for a pedigree pup.

You will end up paying In the long run if you just get a cheap pup that's not coming from health tested parents. Trust me. I've seen first hand the affects on a dog who was from a back yard breeder and trust me it's not nice. It's always the dog that suffers whether it's through illnesses or hip dysplasia etc.
If you can't afford a pup from a good breeder then either save for longer or rescue but do not just buy a pup cheap.

what a load of psychobabble, do you have any evidence to backup your claims ? Seriously get off the internet.

DBB

JJJJNR wrote: »

what a load of psychobabble, do you have any evidence to backup your claims ? Seriously get off the internet.

Do not speak to other users of this forum in this manner, it is completely unacceptable.
Debate your point, or don't post.
Do not reply to this post on-thread.
Thanks,
DBB

andreac

JJJJNR wrote: »

what a load of psychobabble, do you have any evidence to backup your claims ? Seriously get off the internet.

Yes I do actually. Unfortunately my partners dog was bought from a back yard breeder who he met in a car park etc. All before he met me or it wouldn't have happened.

The poor dog is now so deformed and riddled with hip dysplasia that she more than likely will have to get put to sleep before the year is out and she's not even 4 years old.

So I have a huge issue with back yard breeders that breed for money and don't health test when it's the poor dogs that suffer because of it.
Far from psychobabble.

Nelson Muntz

I don't understand how people still manage to buy badly bred pups that end up with health issues.

If you are interested in a certain breed, how hard is it to Google "common health issues with X" & then ask the breeder what checks were done on the parents & ask to see proof.

There is also plenty of info here & on the internet about check-lists & questions to ask when viewing a puppy.

I would think doing this simple research along with picking a breed that suits your family lifestyle would be a no brainer before you outlay your cash & sign up to a 10 - 15 year commitment.

andreac

Nelson you would think people would do that, but unfortunately most don't. People want puppies now and don't want to wait for the right one so end up buying them cheap and from dodgy breeders.

muddypaws

Lemlin wrote: »

Whether you want to show or not is relevant to the price IMO. As a show person, would you not agree? A pet dog should not cost as much as one that is suitable for showing. My friend has had Irish champions and he certainly thinks so.

Apart from your friend, have you got any evidence or point us in the direction of any reputable articles or links to back that up? I can't understand why one dog would be worth less than another. Let me talk about one of my friends - he has a fabulous Alaskan Malamute that he got from a breeder that expects him to show her. He has no interest in showing, and hasn't been in the ring with her yet, and I doubt he ever will, however he works her in harness and she has working titles. She is still a pet dog, lives in his house etc etc, but at weekends, they go off in the van to rallies and treks together. Why would she be worth less than a dog that trots around a show ring?

JJJJNR wrote: »

what a load of psychobabble, do you have any evidence to backup your claims ? Seriously get off the internet.

Lots and lots of evidence, google is your friend

Nelson Muntz

andreac wrote: »

Nelson you would think people would do that, but unfortunately most don't. People want puppies now and don't want to wait for the right one so end up buying them cheap and from dodgy breeders.

Yep & unfortunately those are the puppies most likely to end up in rescue or the pound or just left outside 24 / 7.

boomerang

hardCopy wrote: »

I'm always hearing about people being refused dogs by rescues because both owners work. Where else are people to get a dog?

Dogs' lives are too short to spend most of their time waiting for their owners to come home. I certainly wouldn't put a dog in this situation. It's not always about what we want.

Toulouse

hardCopy wrote: »

I'm always hearing about people being refused dogs by rescues because both owners work. Where else are people to get a dog?

The pound perhaps?

Or there are some reputable rescues that will adopt a dog to a home what works providing that they have made provisions for the dog so that he/she is not left alone for 9+ hours a day, 5 days a week.

It's not difficult. I certainly would never buy a dog from any of the sites that have been mentioned on this thread. If I were a breeder I would not be advertising my dogs on them purely because of their contribution to the overpopulation and irresponsible purchasing of dogs in Ireland and as someone with a background in rescue I have told them where to go when they e-mailed asking if I would like to advertise my rescue dogs for free.

kylith

hardCopy wrote: »

I'm always hearing about people being refused dogs by rescues because both owners work. Where else are people to get a dog?

I got mine from a breed rescue which was happy to give me two as they would be company for each other during the day.

I know what you mean though; that some have a blanket ban on rehoming where there won't be someone home all done can be very off-putting. How do they think you're going to earn the money to look after the dog if not by going to work?

Although, as far as I know, the pound has no such prohibition. But getting a dog from there means it won't have been temperament assessed, neutered, or vaccinated.

shot2go

i have 5 dogs bought from different places, all pure bred ikc, breed specific tests done. 3 were bought from done deal. and one from recommended kennel club breeder out of all 5 she is the one with all the health problems top blood lines means nothing when i have a dog that is sick all the time that i paid huge money for.
People also think when they are getting a IKC reg dog with relevant tests and view the parents, the puppys home that all is ok, another of my dogs again fully tested good blood lines when i got his 3 generation cert it showed that his grandparents were brother and sister, When i rang the kennel club and asked them why the pups were registered even though they were in bred i was told that sometimes its done to improve lines. I had to unfortunately bring the pup back after advice from my vet.

The Bishop Basher

It's good to see the consensus being challenged here as I disagree with the manner in which many regular posters / breeders here completely write off Done Deal at every available opportunity.

Done Deal is not the enemy. Puppy Farmers are. We all agree that puppy farming should not be supported and that people should take reasonable steps to ensure they are buying from a "reputable breeder".

To make the giant leap that everyone selling pups on Done Deal is a puppy farmer is akin to stating that all Rottweilers are dangerous dogs. It's a nonsensical approach.

I've had many dogs from many different sources. Quite a few were bought on Done Deal. I've never had a problem. I have had a problem with a rescue dog and i've also watched my parents struggle with a couple of Spaniels, both bought from IKC registered and "reputable" breeders over the last few years.

I think it's very important to educate people when they decide to buy a pup, on what to look out for when visiting the home, research the breed etc. But armed with that knowledge, there's absolutely no reason why they can't get themselves a fantastic dog on Done Deal.

There are so many dogs out there that need homes. Only a fraction of them end up in Rescue centers. If everyone stopped using Done Deal tomorrow, what do you think would happen to the numerous happy and healthy pups and dogs needing a home ?

A bit of balance is required.

Evac101

A few points which are made purely as observations and not intended to ruffle peoples feathers....

Donedeal dogs
Not all Donedeal advertisers are back yard breeders/puppy mills, not all 'accidental' litters turn into cash grabs for the owners, not all dogs obtained from Donedeal (or similar) will be unhealthy or come from a ethically unsound source. What proportion? No idea - not my point, just saying that it's a very inaccurate view to espouse that all DD sellers are evul or that all DD dogs are trouble down the line.

Pure bred dogs
Not to offend any of the breeders who frequent this forum but I think we're all aware that not all breeders are solely (or even primarily) interested in the welfare of their dogs. There's plenty of evidence in the UK (which I would be more familiar with in this regard) of systemic abuse of safeguards intended by breed clubs to protect animal welfare by individuals or groups of breeders whose main goal seemed to be to win competitions, breed pups and reap profits. Make no mistake that while there are costs involved in ethical breeding (vet checks, vaccinations, etc), there also seems to be segment of the scene who are interested in profit and, to a certain extent, the prestige. Equally some breeders do raise good pups, health checked, parents checked for breed issues, etc, but once they get their price for a pup, seem to have no real interest in where that dog is going. TLDR, most breeders are responsible and ethical, some are not, some are heartless pr*cks.

Rescues
As others have pointed out, in a working household it can be difficult to find a rescue which will allow adoptions, which always bothered me, but that's their decision, their doing good work, etc. However, there's no intrinsic difference in terms of health prospects between DD and a rescue in many cases - there can't be because many of the dogs in our rescues were originally obtained via DD. Ethically it's perhaps (given past reveals regarding rescues) a sounder choice but that's it.

As many of us have said in the past here, arranging or initiating a sale of a pet via the internet is no different than via a classified ad in a 'fanciers' magazine back in the day. Where the real problem lies is not in the method of sale but in the regulation of "production" which is where our country is very sadly lacking in legislation or, in the case of the upcoming legislation, lacking in any meaningful 'bite' for offenders.

There seems to be a lot of polemic views on this thread (in an Animal forum on the internets? no wai!) - hopefully what I'm posting in a more measured view of the situation, although it admittedly does nothing to answer the OP's query.

cocker5

Evac101 wrote: »

A few points which are made purely as observations and not intended to ruffle peoples feathers....

Donedeal dogs
Not all Donedeal advertisers are back yard breeders/puppy mills, not all 'accidental' litters turn into cash grabs for the owners, not all dogs obtained from Donedeal (or similar) will be unhealthy or come from a ethically unsound source. What proportion? No idea - not my point, just saying that it's a very inaccurate view to espouse that all DD sellers are evul or that all DD dogs are trouble down the line.

Pure bred dogs
Not to offend any of the breeders who frequent this forum but I think we're all aware that not all breeders are solely (or even primarily) interested in the welfare of their dogs. There's plenty of evidence in the UK (which I would be more familiar with in this regard) of systemic abuse of safeguards intended by breed clubs to protect animal welfare by individuals or groups of breeders whose main goal seemed to be to win competitions, breed pups and reap profits. Make no mistake that while there are costs involved in ethical breeding (vet checks, vaccinations, etc), there also seems to be segment of the scene who are interested in profit and, to a certain extent, the prestige. Equally some breeders do raise good pups, health checked, parents checked for breed issues, etc, but once they get their price for a pup, seem to have no real interest in where that dog is going. TLDR, most breeders are responsible and ethical, some are not, some are heartless pr*cks.

Rescues
As others have pointed out, in a working household it can be difficult to find a rescue which will allow adoptions, which always bothered me, but that's their decision, their doing good work, etc. However, there's no intrinsic difference in terms of health prospects between DD and a rescue in many cases - there can't be because many of the dogs in our rescues were originally obtained via DD. Ethically it's perhaps (given past reveals regarding rescues) a sounder choice but that's it.

As many of us have said in the past here, arranging or initiating a sale of a pet via the internet is no different than via a classified ad in a 'fanciers' magazine back in the day. Where the real problem lies is not in the method of sale but in the regulation of "production" which is where our country is very sadly lacking in legislation or, in the case of the upcoming legislation, lacking in any meaningful 'bite' for offenders.

There seems to be a lot of polemic views on this thread (in an Animal forum on the internets? no wai!) - hopefully what I'm posting in a more measured view of the situation, although it admittedly does nothing to answer the OP's query.

While I 100% agree with your post above from my understanding most posters on here don't agree with adverts.ie and donedeal for dogs... not mainly for the health of the pup (although this is a serious issue) it because its one of the main off loading websites for puppy mills and back yard breeders... its 99% fuels this industry... which in turn has rescue centres full the brim and pounds bursting... its a vicious circle...

cheap pups... disposable when owners get bored...

there are all linked - IMO this is why soooo many posters are dead against them (i am one of them)... plus the health of the pup etc

Evac101

In some circumstances I can understand people going to DD or similar, because they may not have other avenues due to "reasons". Given how much our pets have given us, I'm very wary of dismissing any means of someone bringing that into their lives.

On the puppy mill front - while Donedeal can be castigated perhaps for enabling the puppy mills to sell their produce, we (imo) would be better off harassing politicians to introduce meaningful legislation, with a provision for enforcement and significant penalties, to dismantle the existing mass producers of pets and to dissuade future entrepreneurs from even thinking of it as a business opportunity. The latest legislation, while a significant improvement, was specifically "de-fanged" to ensure that it had a minimal impact on these businesses. Another case of the bribe money being worth more then the potential lost votes I feel.

borderlinemeath

Swanner wrote: »

It's good to see the consensus being challenged here as I disagree with the manner in which many regular posters / breeders here completely write off Done Deal at every available opportunity.

I'm not a breeder, nor do I show dogs, I do however, deal with all sorts of dogs every day. The amount of badly bred/lame/suffering with various skin/digestive or behavioural problems of "pure bred" (ie I have 2 dogs of the same breed and I'm going to breed them) and cross breeds of everything imaginable given a stupid name that I see would make you cringe. Out of all the various dogs I have seen, only one was a pup from health tested parents and he ended up with hip dysplasia. I always ask the background of every dog I meet, ie where did you get him/her? And the answer is inevitably Donedeal.

Done Deal is not the enemy. Puppy Farmers are. We all agree that puppy farming should not be supported and that people should take reasonable steps to ensure they are buying from a "reputable breeder".

What about the people who indiscriminately breed their dog because they want a puppy so find somebody down the road or that they meet on their walks to sire the pups - without the slightest bit of knowledge whether they come from the same lines or have the same inherited diseases - that incidentally probably haven't reared their head yet because their dog is barely out of puppyhood herself.

To make the giant leap that everyone selling pups on Done Deal is a puppy farmer is akin to stating that all Rottweilers are dangerous dogs. It's a nonsensical approach.

Nobody has made "the giant leap". But posters that don't agree with pups being sold on donedeal know there's a massive proportion of back yard breeders who haven't a clue what they're doing and will put 2 dogs together and hope for the best.

I've had many dogs from many different sources. Quite a few were bought on Done Deal. I've never had a problem. I have had a problem with a rescue dog and i've also watched my parents struggle with a couple of Spaniels, both bought from IKC registered and "reputable" breeders over the last few years.

I have one puppy from a breeder who we rang through contacts and 2 dogs rescued, one from a rescue after he was dumped and left for dead and another because the owners didn't really want a dog, they would have preferred a mute robot that didn't chew or dig. As a puppy that dog was bought from a breeder on Donedeal, I actually went onto the breeders facebook page and there was all the ads they had placed on donedeal for the past few years, including one of their own dogs that was surplus to requirements, because they had "too many" ie 3 breeding bitches was too many, even though the dog was "a much loved pet" :mad:.

I think it's very important to educate people when they decide to buy a pup, on what to look out for when visiting the home, research the breed etc. But armed with that knowledge, there's absolutely no reason why they can't get themselves a fantastic dog on Done Deal.

People don't want education, they want the puppy they talked about getting yesterday. It's an era of instant gratification, that's why donedeal works so well for people who want an instant fix. The ads are instant and unvetted, the buyers are lacking info and don't use their head over heart when it comes to a purchase like a wonderfully cute pup, and the losers are the dogs that are used as breeders without a second thought to their welfare. Why do you think so many dogs are "pure bred but unregistered" on DD? Because the bitch used to breed them is being overbred for profit, without a though for her welfare. Just search here for all the threads of people who were promised that the papers would be posted on to them - they were conned for profit.

There are so many dogs out there that need homes. Only a fraction of them end up in Rescue centers. If everyone stopped using Done Deal tomorrow, what do you think would happen to the numerous happy and healthy pups and dogs needing a home ?

A bit of balance is required.

If there wasn't an unvetted, easy and cheap outlet to sell living creatures then they wouldn't be bred, simple as. It makes it so easy for people to sell on what they have bred, if there was more work and less or no profit involved, it wouldn't happen.

You only have to look at the first few pages of dogs on the likes of DD to see that there is barely an ad that even mentions the lineage of the dogs and that is usually if they're hunting dogs. Everything else is badly bred. We can't link to the ads but some of the most ridiculous crosses I've ever heard are on the first few pages.

The Bishop Basher

borderlinemeath wrote: »

What about the people who indiscriminately breed their dog because they want a puppy so find somebody down the road or that they meet on their walks to sire the pups - without the slightest bit of knowledge whether they come from the same lines or have the same inherited diseases - that incidentally probably haven't reared their head yet because their dog is barely out of puppyhood herself.

Agreed. You'll certainly find these people on there. Along with the many responsible dog owners / lovers and breeders selling happy and healthy pups and dogs. It's all about balance of which your statement above shows none.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Nobody has made "the giant leap". But posters that don't agree with pups being sold on donedeal know there's a massive proportion of back yard breeders who haven't a clue what they're doing and will put 2 dogs together and hope for the best.

I beg to differ....

MrWalsh wrote: »

Sorry guys, but anyone who buys a dog on Done Deal is contributing to puppy farming at worst and back yard breeding at best.

No legitimate breeder is selling a dog on Done Deal.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

As a puppy that dog was bought from a breeder on Donedeal, I actually went onto the breeders facebook page and there was all the ads they had placed on donedeal for the past few years, including one of their own dogs that was surplus to requirements, because they had "too many" ie 3 breeding bitches was too many, even though the dog was "a much loved pet" :mad:.

That's awful and nobody condones this behavior. I'm not sure what your point is though. As stated earlier in the thread, not all "reputable breeders" have the dogs interest as a priority either. Point is, buyer beware.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

If there wasn't an unvetted, easy and cheap outlet to sell living creatures then they wouldn't be bred, simple as. It makes it so easy for people to sell on what they have bred, if there was more work and less or no profit involved, it wouldn't happen.

But there is. And there will always be unscrupulous people looking to make a fast buck. Being registered with the IKC doesn't magically make everything OK. In fact it's regularly used to give a sheen of respectability. Once again, buyer beware.

I think most people are broadly in agreement here. I would love to see proper legislation to allow prosecution of those found involved in puppy farming. Mandatory health testing would also be beneficial although I would be interested to see some data around the success of this as it doesn't in any way guarantee a healthy animal. I'm amazed that the pet insurance companies don't already demand it. Maybe they know more then we do. Regardless we all want what's best for the dogs.

I just don't agree with the often expressed militant view on here that Done Deal = Puppy Farm. A little more balance to the discussion would allow people make a more informed decision. There are plenty of great pups for sale on Done Deal. I have 2 fully grown, happy and healthy examples looking at me as I type this.

Knine

If they don't have the dogs best interests at heart then they are not a reputable breeder.

ShaShaBear

Most of us here know that DoneDeal is not literally for back-yard breeders. However, if people come here asking for advice on puppies, and indicate through text that they are unfamiliar with procedure, cost, health testing etc, we usually advise against it as they would likely not notice that they were buying off a dodgy person. One very reputable user of this forum suggested that I include Adverts and such in my search for a young dog after Shadow died, because they knew I would not be duped by "meeting halfway" or "puppies that have only being taken inside for the sale" or "mammy is just protecting her young, she isn't aggressive" or "sure theres daddy there in that field 4 miles away up yonder" or "yeah all the pups were tested at the vets and they're grand sure" and "dads a purebred cockapoo and mams a purebred lab so the pups are sold at 200 cause they are purebred cockalabradoodles".
They knew I would suss out the owner, the home, the parent (if any), the vet work and corresponding documentation for said vet work, and that I would make a fair choice for all involved.

However, someone who has been out of the game for 15 years might not be so clued in, and we can type what you should do when meeting DoneDeal breeders until the cows come home - most of these people, who will appear to listen to the advice, will end up meeting a breeder and puppy and just be put in too awkward a position to leave without it, unwilling to admit they have contributed to the greater evil that CAN be found on DoneDeal and similar.

If we could be totally sure that everyone we spoke to would fully heed our advice on how to proceed on DoneDeal, we would be more likely to recommend it as there are plenty of pups, young and older dogs that are in genuine need of a good home and who would make a great addition to the family. The problem is, back-yard breeders know this song very well and will sing it to naive and innocent people to make them think they are one of the good guys.

Evac101

Good points, well made ShaShaBear. I don't wholly agree with your viewpoint but it's the most reasonably expressed explanation I've seen for your stance and I thank you for it.

Gael23

ShaShaBear wrote: »

.
However, someone who has been out of the game for 15 years might not be so clued in, and we can type what you should do when meeting DoneDeal breeders until the cows come home - most of these people, who will appear to listen to the advice, will end up meeting a breeder and puppy and just be put in too awkward a position to leave without it, unwilling to admit they have contributed to the greater evil that CAN be found on DoneDeal and similar. .

Thats exactly the position we fond ourselves in. A lot has changed in the game in the past 15 years. When I started this I really felt ready to go ahead and get one but since then someone sent me a PM from adverts, which is a place I never thought of looking,and the Dog in it looks scarily like the one we recently lost which made me think again, although I know they will have totally different traits and so on.

tk123

If you are buying online check the other ads or indeed classified sites as well as google images for the same photo. I've noticed that on DD a few times that they're plucking images from other ads or sites.

If you're going either route get the names of the dam and sire (they should be only too happy for you to know the names) you can have a google and see what comes up Eg Lucy's dad is from a well known retriever kennel so I was able to see the hip scores and show results of her dad, grandparents, great grandparents other etc They also used stud dogs from a kennel in the uk so I was able to have a nosey at them too etc etc Also google the breeder and their phone number for other ads

ShaShaBear

Gael23 wrote: »

Thats exactly the position we fond ourselves in. A lot has changed in the game in the past 15 years. When I started this I really felt ready to go ahead and get one but since then someone sent me a PM from adverts, which is a place I never thought of looking,and the Dog in it looks scarily like the one we recently lost which made me think again, although I know they will have totally different traits and so on.

The only thing I can say on that front is be careful. We adopted a badly abused border collie (after losing an elderly border collie to cancer) and we found ourselves imposing a lot of Shadow's traits on the new pup, which caused quite a bit of frustration and upset. Opie is an entirely different dog. Different likes, different dislikes, he operates differently, feeds differently, learns differently, even barks differently. My partner struggled severely to bond with him at all because he was so used to what Shadow did that he forgot that this similar-looking dog was not in fact the same one Although he loves him to bits now and wouldn't be without him, I know in my heart of hearts that a different breed, sex or at least colour/coat length would have made a huge difference in how Opie was received in this house. Just my 2c!

Lemlin

muddypaws wrote: »

Apart from your friend, have you got any evidence or point us in the direction of any reputable articles or links to back that up? I can't understand why one dog would be worth less than another. Let me talk about one of my friends - he has a fabulous Alaskan Malamute that he got from a breeder that expects him to show her. He has no interest in showing, and hasn't been in the ring with her yet, and I doubt he ever will, however he works her in harness and she has working titles. She is still a pet dog, lives in his house etc etc, but at weekends, they go off in the van to rallies and treks together. Why would she be worth less than a dog that trots around a show ring?

In relation to "I can't understand why one dog would be worth less than another" - Why would I need a link to prove this? A dog won Crufts last week. How much is it going to be worth? Of course it is easy for one dog to be worth more than another. There are a number of factors that come into consideration in terms of the value of dogs - breed, defects, temperament, lineage to name but a few.

As I've said, my friend is keeping three of the pups (the best 3 in his opinion) for six months. At that stage, he will make his decision based on a number of factors for that particular breed - I'm not a person who attends shows and don't claim to be so I wouldn't know what these factors are. In his opinion, he then can't expect people to pay as much for the pups he does not keep as ones that were ordered, the ones he sold when they were 8 weeks old or the ones he is keeping. He has kept them and warranted them not fit for the purpose of showing. He did tell me his children often ask how he does it (having spent sometimes 3 hours a day with these pups until they are six months) but, in his words, after twenty years of showing he sees dogs as a commodity.

In relation to your story about the Alaskan Malamute, why would your friend's dog be worth less - Because she has no show titles. If one of her sister's wins a number of shows, which set of pups would be worth more? If both dogs were sold in the morning, would your friends "pet" garner a higher price or a dog that "trots around a show ring"? I'd imagine even having the dog trained to trot around a show ring has some monetary value as it is a form of training.

Interesting that you ask for articles and links. I see very few others providing articles and links for any points they have made. You've made a huge number of points yourself above without links to back them up so I'm surprised you request same from others. You've used anecdotal evidence and I have also.

Lemlin

Swanner wrote: »

But there is. And there will always be unscrupulous people looking to make a fast buck. Being registered with the IKC doesn't magically make everything OK. In fact it's regularly used to give a sheen of respectability. Once again, buyer beware.

I think most people are broadly in agreement here. I would love to see proper legislation to allow prosecution of those found involved in puppy farming. Mandatory health testing would also be beneficial although I would be interested to see some data around the success of this as it doesn't in any way guarantee a healthy animal. I'm amazed that the pet insurance companies don't already demand it. Maybe they know more then we do. Regardless we all want what's best for the dogs.

I just don't agree with the often expressed militant view on here that Done Deal = Puppy Farm. A little more balance to the discussion would allow people make a more informed decision. There are plenty of great pups for sale on Done Deal. I have 2 fully grown, happy and healthy examples looking at me as I type this.

Fantastic post I have to say and good to see some others bringing a bit of balance to the debate. The fact is it can't be argued that every single dog sold from Donedeal results in a horror story, just like it can't be argued that every single pup recommended by a breed club will be a glowing picture of health for its entire life.

Knine wrote: »

Same old argument which you seem to have an issue with Lemlin. It costs the same amount of money to produce a high quality pet puppy as it does to produce a Champion puppy. I'm not going into those costs yet again. You get what you pay for & finding a breeder with healthy tested puppies & full aftersales backup - Dogs come back to me for grooming & any help required. I handstrip to show standard which you seldom get in a dog groomers. My pet homes are as equally delighted with their puppies as the show owners. Afterall they are all family pets. A puppy is also never sold here for showing. They are sold with show potential.

I'd agree about the argument re costs. I have illustrated in the past that profit can be quite easily made from a litter of pups even by reputable breeders who have high and unexpected costs.

There's no doubting the quality after sales service you provide but not all breeders recommended by breed clubs would provide that and I think you'd agree with same. Yes, it does cost the same amount of money to produce a high quality pet puppy as a Champion one but, if you've kept a pup for six months and warranted it to not be worth showing (like my friend does), why should you expect someone to pay the same amount for that as the puppy that you believe is worth showing? To me, my friend is being realistic and ethical. It would be unethical to charge the same price for a puppy which he does not see as fit for showing. He obviously feels that pup is not as good a quality as the one he is keeping.

Re the "show potential", I'm not a show person so I'm not going to have the terminology down to the specifics but you seem to be able to comprehend my point nonetheless.

Knine

I often see people mentioning that they have contacted Breed Clubs & rang breeders & don't seem to be getting anywhere, well I can say that many people won't actually be considered for one of mine. I have puppies on the way & last week I got a phone call from someone looking for a puppy. Their previous two dogs had met tragic ends through sheer negligence on their part. I won't go into too many details but think sheep worrying. Another caller wanted one purely for breeding. A third wanted one so it could keep their other terrier company while wandering.

These people all thought they were fantastic dog owners

Lemlin

Knine wrote: »

I often see people mentioning that they have contacted Breed Clubs & rang breeders & don't seem to be getting anywhere, well I can say that many people won't actually be considered for one of mine. I have puppies on the way & last week I got a phone call from someone looking for a puppy. Their previous two dogs had met tragic ends through sheer negligence on their part. I won't go into too many details but think sheep worrying. Another caller wanted one purely for breeding. A third wanted one so it could keep their other terrier company while wandering.

These people all thought they were fantastic dog owners

May I ask in that case what you tell them or how the call is ended? I'm just wondering why the caller would assume they should expect a call back or to get somewhere which was your initial point.

Knine

Lemlin wrote: »

May I ask in that case what you tell them or how the call is ended? I'm just wondering why the caller would assume they should expect a call back or to get somewhere which was your initial point.

I told them that I only allow puppies to go to homes where they will be fully supervised & that I did not consider their circumstances suitable. The death of both dogs was 2 separate instances.

The second caller was told that my dogs were not sold for breeding but as family pets.

Show potential means that a puppy is sold showing excellent breed qualities but it is potential rather then guaranteed. All puppies are sold at the same price.

Lemlin

Knine wrote: »

I told them that I only allow puppies to go to homes where they will be fully supervised & that I did not consider their circumstances suitable. The death of both dogs was 2 separate instances.

The second caller was told that my dogs were not sold for breeding but as family pets.

Show potential means that a puppy is sold showing excellent breed qualities but it is potential rather then guaranteed. All puppies are sold at the same price.

But your point was that "I often see people mentioning that they have contacted Breed Clubs & rang breeders & don't seem to be getting anywhere". Nobody here has come on and said that they were told they were unsuitable for a dog by a breed club. I'm just wondering what your point is in relation to?

If you've told these people they are not suitable owners, they aren't going to expect to be "getting anywhere" as you put it. Your point just seems like a strange one to suddenly throw into the mix from nowhere.

Knine

My point is that not all people looking for puppies are going to be considered suitable owners. They then say they contacted Clubs etc with no luck. The whole thread is about getting a puppy? No?

These wannabe owners feel like they are getting nowhere because they think think they are great owners

223vmax

MrWalsh wrote: »

Sorry guys, but anyone who buys a dog on Done Deal is contributing to puppy farming at worst and back yard breeding at best.

No legitimate breeder is selling a dog on Done Deal.

Complete nonsense. I had a lovely Labrador a few years ago. She was approx 7 years old with excellent temperament. I bred her to keep a pup for myself. The rest of the pups I sold on done deal. The pups were kept in excellent conditions and every one of them vet checked, wormed etc.

What is wrong with selling pups this way?

Knine

223vmax wrote: »

Complete nonsense. I had a lovely Labrador a few years ago. She was approx 7 years old with excellent temperament. I bred her to keep a pup for myself. The rest of the pups I sold on done deal. The pups were kept in excellent conditions and every one of them vet checked, wormed etc.

What is wrong with selling pups this way?

What was the parents hip scores?

Toulouse

You bred a 7 year old bitch?

Lemlin

Knine wrote: »

My point is that not all people looking for puppies are going to be considered suitable owners. They then say they contacted Clubs etc with no luck. The whole thread is about getting a puppy? No?

These wannabe owners feel like they are getting nowhere because they think think they are great owners

Nobody here though has mentioned contacting a club "with no luck". The thread is about the OP looking for where to start to source a pup. She hasn't contacted anyone yet.

No "wannabe owners" have stated they are "getting nowhere" on this thread.

Sorry to pick at your point but it seems totally out of place in the context of the discussion.

Lemlin

Toulouse wrote: »

You bred a 7 year old bitch?

Sorry to jump in but had this from a previous thread, IKC guidelines previously posted on here:

Ok, the Irish Kennel club guidelines for stud dogs:
Minimum age to start breeding: 18 months
Maximum age to breed: 12 years
Males must mate a MAXIMUM of one bitch per fortnight.
If these rules are ignored, i.e. the male is bred earlier than one year, the kennel club reserve the right to refuse to register any pups born. Male dogs are, however, quite capable of siring a litter far earlier than this(puberty at 6months?), so you must be aware of these rules before you put your dog to stud with the intention of having IKC reg'd pups.
Out of interest for anyone with a bitch, recommended age: at least 18-24 months, must be no older than 8 years and definitely no younger than one year, and must not exceed a maximum of 6 litters in a lifetime.

Knine

The usual crap out of you Lemlin. I am free to give my opinion. The whole thread is about buying puppies. I'm explaining why people sometimes don't have any luck.

BTW reputable breeders don't breed 7 year old bitches for the first time. I don't know if this is the case until the OP explains it.

andreac

Lemlin wrote: »

Sorry to jump in but had this from a previous thread, IKC guidelines previously posted on here:

Ok, the Irish Kennel club guidelines for stud dogs:
Minimum age to start breeding: 18 months
Maximum age to breed: 12 years
Males must mate a MAXIMUM of one bitch per fortnight.
If these rules are ignored, i.e. the male is bred earlier than one year, the kennel club reserve the right to refuse to register any pups born. Male dogs are, however, quite capable of siring a litter far earlier than this(puberty at 6months?), so you must be aware of these rules before you put your dog to stud with the intention of having IKC reg'd pups.
Out of interest for anyone with a bitch, recommended age: at least 18-24 months, must be no older than 8 years and definitely no younger than one year, and must not exceed a maximum of 6 litters in a lifetime.

Yes, they are only guidelines. Its very very risky to breed a bitch for the first time at 7 years of age and is not recommended at all.

MrWalsh

223vmax wrote: »

Complete nonsense. I had a lovely Labrador a few years ago. She was approx 7 years old with excellent temperament. I bred her to keep a pup for myself. The rest of the pups I sold on done deal. The pups were kept in excellent conditions and every one of them vet checked, wormed etc.

What is wrong with selling pups this way?

Everything about this post illustrates why people shouldnt use DoneDeal to buy a puppy. Thank you for supporting my point so well.

DBB

Folks,
Will you please keep it respectful?
Telling people they're talking crap (knine) or scathing one-liners (MrWalsh) are extremely unhelpful and cause serious bad feeling.
There are valid points being raised from different viewpoints, and whether everyone agrees with each other or not, everyone still needs to be respectful.
I'm on my last nerve with this thread. Any more bickering and sniping will result in cards being issued.
Thanks,
DBB

fiounnalbe

Done deal fills me with rage.

You might get lucky and get a well looked after and well reared puppy, but you have to question why are they selling this pup on done deal??

A once off accidental breeding, while irresponsible, mistakes happen and I can deal with these dogs being sold for no profit and hope the owners learn from it. These seem to be few and far between on dd though...

Otherwise its just a handy outlet for the idiots who purposely breed cocakpoos, cavachons etc. i.e MONGRELS, how can anyone breed and sell these when there are so many puppies in pounds and shelters all over Ireland?? We dont need them and anyone partaking in this careless breeding and the people buying such dogs need to take a long hard look at themselves. Its 2015, so much information is available at the click of a button these days there is no excuse even for the people who play ignorance in this regard.

Then theres the purebreds for sale. If they are really good purebreds, with all their healthchecks from good lines, they wouldnt need to advertise on dd as the IKC would have them on the lists and puppies would easily sell that way from people enthusiastic about the breed. So theyre obviously not really good purebreds which leads me once again to the conclusion of - ireland doesnt need them, so please dont breed them.

Id love if Ireland brought in a ban on breeding dogs unless the Owners were on the IKC approved breeders lists. It would really answer alot of problems with dog over population that we have. And would get rid of that fake club canine ireland or whatever it is.

The Bishop Basher

fiounnalbe wrote: »

So theyre obviously not really good purebreds which leads me once again to the conclusion of - ireland doesnt need them, so please dont breed them.

Not everyone wants purebreds and all the problems associated with them.

fiounnalbe wrote: »

Id love if Ireland brought in a ban on breeding dogs unless the Owners were on the IKC approved breeders lists. It would really answer alot of problems with dog over population that we have. And would get rid of that fake club canine ireland or whatever it is.

Are you on the IKC approved breeders list by any chance ? And how do you ban dogs from breeding ? Tongue in cheek I know but seriously, it's not something you can just ban. It will happen regardless. I'm not condoning it but lets work with reality.

borderlinemeath

Swanner wrote: »

Agreed. You'll certainly find these people on there. Along with the many responsible dog owners / lovers and breeders selling happy and healthy pups and dogs. It's all about balance of which your statement above shows none.

Why show balance when I have never encountered it?

That's awful and nobody condones this behavior. I'm not sure what your point is though. As stated earlier in the thread, not all "reputable breeders" have the dogs interest as a priority either. Point is, buyer beware.

I gave my experience of Donedeal in reply to yours where your anecdotal evidence is that your dogs are healthy and happy yet came through DD.

But there is. And there will always be unscrupulous people looking to make a fast buck. Being registered with the IKC doesn't magically make everything OK. In fact it's regularly used to give a sheen of respectability. Once again, buyer beware.

It's a safeguard, that many, many users on the likes of DD don't use, or claim that the pups will be registered and never do. Advertising the pup as "will make great pets" and when the interested parties come to view the pups they play down the registration as not needed if the dogs won't be shown. But it does open the door for overbreeding as the IKC will not allow multiple registrations from the same bitch in more than a year.

I think most people are broadly in agreement here. I would love to see proper legislation to allow prosecution of those found involved in puppy farming. Mandatory health testing would also be beneficial although I would be interested to see some data around the success of this as it doesn't in any way guarantee a healthy animal. I'm amazed that the pet insurance companies don't already demand it. Maybe they know more then we do. Regardless we all want what's best for the dogs.

I just don't agree with the often expressed militant view on here that Done Deal = Puppy Farm. A little more balance to the discussion would allow people make a more informed decision. There are plenty of great pups for sale on Done Deal. I have 2 fully grown, happy and healthy examples looking at me as I type this.

I haven't expressed that view, I agree that it's one avenue for puppy farmers, but mainly for back yard breeders who haven't got the first clue of what they're doing. Like I said previously, two dogs of the same breed does not necessarily make a happy healthy litter. If they both carry the same genetic health problems and/or undesirable behavioural problems then these will be most likely passed on to their offspring. Back yard breeders don't offer back up to new owners, and many try and offload their pups at 5/6 weeks because they don't know any better, or they don't want to have the puppy food outlay eat into their profit. I think the majority of ads on DD are the bybs and people think that's ok because it's not a run down dirty shed full of breeding bitches and their litters, so they walk away confident that they haven't been to a puppy farm but the resultant pups can be just as unhealthy because the research or the money wasn't put into the bitch and the sire.

It's great that your dogs are happy and healthy. But from my point of view, I meet so many that are not, I meet many dogs that have behavioural issues and/or health issues. I sometimes recognise the symptoms and their owners don't even know it (eg skin or digestive issues), they may have spotted the symptoms but didn't even know they were problems.

muddypaws

Lemlin wrote: »

In relation to "I can't understand why one dog would be worth less than another" - Why would I need a link to prove this? A dog won Crufts last week. How much is it going to be worth? Of course it is easy for one dog to be worth more than another. There are a number of factors that come into consideration in terms of the value of dogs - breed, defects, temperament, lineage to name but a few.

hehe, you've just proved your own point is wrong. The dog that won Crufts will undoubtedly now be worth more than a dog that was also shown at Crufts but didn't win

Lemlin wrote: »

As I've said, my friend is keeping three of the pups (the best 3 in his opinion) for six months. At that stage, he will make his decision based on a number of factors for that particular breed - I'm not a person who attends shows and don't claim to be so I wouldn't know what these factors are. In his opinion, he then can't expect people to pay as much for the pups he does not keep as ones that were ordered, the ones he sold when they were 8 weeks old or the ones he is keeping. He has kept them and warranted them not fit for the purpose of showing. He did tell me his children often ask how he does it (having spent sometimes 3 hours a day with these pups until they are six months) but, in his words, after twenty years of showing he sees dogs as a commodity.

In relation to your story about the Alaskan Malamute, why would your friend's dog be worth less - Because she has no show titles. If one of her sister's wins a number of shows, which set of pups would be worth more? If both dogs were sold in the morning, would your friends "pet" garner a higher price or a dog that "trots around a show ring"? I'd imagine even having the dog trained to trot around a show ring has some monetary value as it is a form of training.

Wrong. A lot of people would pay more for a dog from a working breed having working titles, rather than show ones. Which is why alaskan huskies can cost more than siberian huskies.

Lemlin wrote: »

Interesting that you ask for articles and links. I see very few others providing articles and links for any points they have made. You've made a huge number of points yourself above without links to back them up so I'm surprised you request same from others. You've used anecdotal evidence and I have also.

I used anecdotal evidence because you did, see, its easy isn't it, just because your friend does or says something, doesn't mean its true. Your friend sounds like a really nice person.

ETA: We aren't allowed to post links to selling sites, but if you go and have a look for cavachons, goldendoodles, labradoodles, you will find they cost more than most IKC registered dogs which can be shown, and even those that have show champions in their bloodlines that are for sale. Yet none of those dogs can be shown.

Knine

Actually dogs with Show Titles are very difficult to buy. Most people won't sell them. It costs a hell of a lot of money to Show Title a dog.

Alaskan Malamutes are a different breed to a Siberian Husky hence different prices. It costs more to breed them too as they are a bigger breed. Unless you mean the working non recognised type of sled dog?

fiounnalbe

Swanner wrote: »

Not everyone wants purebreds and all the problems associated with them.



Are you on the IKC approved breeders list by any chance ? And how do you ban dogs from breeding ? Tongue in cheek I know but seriously, it's not something you can just ban. It will happen regardless. I'm not condoning it but lets work with reality.

If you dont want a purebred, go to a pound and pick a mongrel. If you want a purebred but one with less chance of problems get a registered breeder one.

No I am not on the list. I own 5 beautiful mongrels all from pounds and shelters. I have never bred a bitch in my life nor will I ever as I do not want to contribute to our alarming overpopulation of dogs. Personally im not into purebred dogs and will never buy one, but I do think its a shame if some good lines and breeds died out which is why I never have any problem with responsible breeding of dogs nor with people who love a certain breed and buy one responsibly.

Other countries have put bans on breeding in the past I believe, so I think it can be done, however there is so much else wrong with Ireland I doubt its top priority.

223vmax

Knine wrote: »

What was the parents hip scores?

Dam...Score 5 both sides. Score 0 on elbows. I can PM a photocopy of the cert if you please?

Sire Score 3 & 2. Score 0 for elbows.

cruizer101

andreac wrote: »

Back yard breeder so. These people are not reputable breeders. No reputable breeder breeds mongrels.
But she would have made a profit by breeding a litter of pups this way as no health checks etc would have been in place.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this, I havn't read through the whole thread so maybe it has been discussed, and maybe it is really a topic for another thread.

But the fact of the matter is dog breeds are something created by humans by inbreeding dogs with certain traits. This has gone to the extreme of kings charles having skulls to small for their brains, german shepherds being bred to have unnatural hips, bulldogs having to be delivered by caesarian the majority of the time.

Yes these are extremes, and breed clubs do their best to encourage breeding of only healthy individuals but that doesn't mean you can get away from the fact that the genetic manipulation of dogs by humans has led to dogs that are far less healthy.

Mongrels on the other hand are far more natural have a mix of a wide variety of genes leading to far healthier dogs. I would much rather a well bred mongrel than a purebred. Now I am in no way condoning every Tom Dick and Harry breeding their dogs but what is wrong with two healthy dogs of different breeds producing healthy offspring other than the vanity of humans trying to pigeonhole dogs into specific breeds.

borderlinemeath

cruizer101 wrote: »

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this, I havn't read through the whole thread so maybe it has been discussed, and maybe it is really a topic for another thread.

But the fact of the matter is dog breeds are something created by humans by inbreeding dogs with certain traits. This has gone to the extreme of kings charles having skulls to small for their brains, german shepherds being bred to have unnatural hips, bulldogs having to be delivered by caesarian the majority of the time.

Yes these are extremes, and breed clubs do their best to encourage breeding of only healthy individuals but that doesn't mean you can get away from the fact that the genetic manipulation of dogs by humans has led to dogs that are far less healthy.

Mongrels on the other hand are far more natural have a mix of a wide variety of genes leading to far healthier dogs. I would much rather a well bred mongrel than a purebred. Now I am in no way condoning every Tom Dick and Harry breeding their dogs but what is wrong with two healthy dogs of different breeds producing healthy offspring other than the vanity of humans trying to pigeonhole dogs into specific breeds.

The assumption that a mongrel or a cross breed is healthier is a myth. It all depends on parentage. Be that pure bred or cross. The parents can be just as unhealthy if not unhealthier, as they are allowed to breed randomly and without any health on genetic checks.

That said, I'm absolutely against certain breeds that have been mutated from their original purpose, any brachycephalic breed such as the boxer or bulldog or pug need to be managed - the fact that dogs are bred with flat faces and little or no nose is disgusting in my opinion. Every mammal needs air to breathe and these breeds are struggling with the most fundamental need to live. It's not just the breeders that are to blame, the people who want to own these breeds and are popularising them are just as bad. One of my neighbours used to own boxers and it was heartbreaking for them, they couldn't cope with the short lifespan and the health issues, now they have a doberman and can't believe that they barely have to visit the vet for a yearly check up as they were the vets best customers for years previously with heart and skin complaints with their boxers.

Edit: Just on cross breeds and the problems that can occur - "cavachons" , "puggles" and "labradoodles" are some of the most popular mongrels sold on Donedeal. There is no thought for the health and welfare of these crosses, cavs as you've mentioned have multiple issues, from syringomyelia to heart issues to joint issues, and they are bred with bichons, rife with digestive and skin issues. As for the puggle - crossing a dog like a pug with breathing issues with a dog that has the drive of the beagle is insane, and EVERY light skinned labradoodle I've met has skin or digestive issues, it's rife within them. Donedeal facilitates this type of indiscriminate cross breeding and normalises it so the lay person does not know the difference. It's sickening tbh.

Lemlin

muddypaws wrote: »

hehe, you've just proved your own point is wrong. The dog that won Crufts will undoubtedly now be worth more than a dog that was also shown at Crufts but didn't win

I think you're getting confused here. Your original point was "I can't understand why one dog would be worth less than another". My point was that of course some dogs are worth more or less than others. I don't see how you could think I have proven my point wrong by me stating that a dog from Crufts is worth more than others? If anything, you have just proved that your own point is wrong - you've just illustrated yourself why one dog would be worth less than another so what is there for you not to understand?

muddypaws wrote: »

Wrong. A lot of people would pay more for a dog from a working breed having working titles, rather than show ones. Which is why alaskan huskies can cost more than siberian huskies.

Apologies, I didn't read your point correctly. Of course your friend's dog is worth a lot as it has working titles. Any dog with showing or working titles is worth more than a "common pet". My point is that dogs with titles, be they showing or working, are worth more than a common pet so you are agreeing with my point.

muddypaws wrote: »

I used anecdotal evidence because you did, see, its easy isn't it, just because your friend does or says something, doesn't mean its true. Your friend sounds like a really nice person.

ETA: We aren't allowed to post links to selling sites, but if you go and have a look for cavachons, goldendoodles, labradoodles, you will find they cost more than most IKC registered dogs which can be shown, and even those that have show champions in their bloodlines that are for sale. Yet none of those dogs can be shown.

I have no problem with you using anecdotal evidence. What I was pointing to is that when I used anecdotal evidence you asked for links and articles - I find it amusing that someone would be blinkered enough to assume they can use anecdotal evidence themselves yet request links and evidence from others. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, in other words.

Re Donedeal and the crossbreds, I've just gone to DD and used the search function. Cavachons range in price from €180 to €300. There are no goldendoodles and its not even a crossbreed I have ever heard of. Labradoodles range in price from €65 to €500. The ones at €500 seem to be at an extreme price. These dogs are priced because there is a market for them. Its simple supply and demand to be honest. I know two well educated and articulate young ladies that were given all the information in the world regarding dogs and research yet drove from Meath to Laois and bought two Cavachons, paying €300 each. While it wouldn't be my thing and I and others tried to change their minds, the dogs are now five years old and neither have had any health issues. In fact, one of the girls has bought a second Cavachon as a companion through DD and, again, has had no problems. Of course, I have plenty of horror stories from DD also but its not all the Nightmare on Elm Street-scenario that can be painted by some. I also know a girl that bought a purebred pup with both parents fully health tested etc. and she has ended up paying over £2000 in various vet fees. I know of another person that got a dog through a breed club recommended breeder and the pup isn't even 18 months and has had hip problems and surgery. The father was hip tested but the mother was not so, I'd ask the question, why were that breed club giving out this breeder's details? That person paid €650 for this pup.

There are horror stories from both sides of the fence and that is why some balance is needed. I also have one good story regarding crossbreds. I know of a mother who looked for over 12 months for a Pug for her daughter. It was the dog her daughter wanted and she had been told they were fantastic with kids. However, the price for one even on Donedeal at the time was about €800. She contacted various rescues and animal homes and a Pug could not be sourced, or even an adequate crossbreed. She looked at some jugs on both DD and in homes but they were too Jack Russell in appearance and traits for her liking and, as many would say, her daughter was only 8 so she did not want a terrier-type pup that may end up nippy with kids. Eventually she found a Pug cross on DD. It cost her €300 which was the fraction of the cost of a Pug. I have seen this dog and it is a Pug in all but its colour as it is spotted. It is a fantastic dog with her child so, as I said, these crossbreds pups are there because there is a market and I would state that most cost less than a purebreed IKC registered dog would.

MrWalsh

Lemlin wrote: »

There are horror stories from both sides of the fence and that is why some balance is needed.

But there are far far more horror stories from the DD side of the fence than from the legitimate breeder side of the fence.

The risk of ending up with a puppy farmed dog and thus contributing to the industry is still the biggest issue.

So what if someone gets a dog from Done Deal that doesnt have health issues - the fact is that they have supported a site that facilitates the sale of puppy farmed and back yard bred dogs. As long as people support this method of getting a dog then these practices find it easier to continue.