Reputable places to get Puppy

sillysmiles

As an opinion - I think some posters are missing the point. (or my understanding of it)

Then there is the rescue option, plenty of pups that way too if people cant afford a pedigree dog.

Some people want a purebred dog so that they can be sure of temperament etc. A suitable pup may not always be available also e.g. my friend who wanted a Pug-type.

Surely the point is - if the health check of the parents haven't been done and the breeder hasn't paid attention to the genealogy of the sire and dam then neither the temperament nor the health can be guaranteed and the fact that it is pure breed means diddly squat.

I say this as someone who has no interest in breeding and has only ever rescued.

My personal opinion is I don't understand the desire to buy a pup when so many are available for rescue/adoption.

Lemlin

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Right, say for example you charge the same as the back yard breeder 10 miles up the road. You meet with the prospective buyers and they want the pup for Christmas. But it's something that you don't agree with as it's not beneficial for the pup, but the byb up the road has no such qualms letting a pup go because he doesn't care. Who does the customer buy from?

ie if you vet your customers because you care for your stock and they aren't necessarily what you would consider to be responsible owners (maybe they live in the country and want to put an ecollar on the dog and they're surrounded by sheep) but the byb doesn't vet them he just wants to shift his stock for profit - the customer is still going to buy from the byb because he can, or at least can do it without the interview or the wait.

I'm talking here about people being pushed to DD because the high prices that some reputable breeders charge, which in my opinion is set to make profit, makes a dog of that type unaffordable for them.

It also depends on the customer to be honest. You'd have to hope someone would be wise enough to go with the breeder even if the pup won't be available for Xmas but then I am regularly surprised how irrationale people can be when it comes to dogs e.g. The tale of the two girls getting the Cavchons earlier.

Interesting though to hear one poster refer to it earlier as a "business model" for breeders. That is exactly what I would see it as.

sillysmiles

I should add - that's not directed at the OP - more a general comment on buying.

borderlinemeath

Lemlin wrote: »

I'm talking here about people being pushed to DD because the high prices that some reputable breeders charge, which in my opinion is set to make profit, makes a dog of that type unaffordable for them.

It also depends on the customer to be honest. You'd have to hope someone would be wise enough to go with the breeder even if the pup won't be available for Xmas but then I am regularly surprised how irrationale people can be when it comes to dogs e.g. The tale of the two girls getting the Cavchons earlier.

Interesting though to hear one poster refer to it earlier as a "business model" for breeders. That is exactly what I would see it as.

Lemlin you have often spoke of your own "business model" which doesn't involve IKC registration and your "leave her at it" approach to your bitch in the early stages of the pups life. The fact that your local vet is so much cheaper than those that live in Dublin. I remember debating on the very thread that went down a slippery slope. You debated that the prices of ferries shouldn't be included as a "cost" even though it was to do with winning show titles for the bitch. You queried where a poster had to take their holidays around whelping and then pay somebody to check on their pups when they did have to return to work. You queried EVERY little cost, even when Knine told you her bitch had to be sectioned and that her bitch was AI'd as the sire was the best mate and that cost money. And yet you STILL make out that these posters are in it for profit when they have stated they do far more when breeding and have far more incidental costs that you do. It's the same argument time and again, "they're profiteering" when they state that they have significant costs. While you might be targeting breed club breeders in general, it's still targeted at the breeders replying to you on this thread.

It was only a matter of time before you got your own way and brought the argument down to this level again:(

kylith

Lemlin wrote: »

I'm talking here about people being pushed to DD because the high prices that some reputable breeders charge, which in my opinion is set to make profit, makes a dog of that type unaffordable for them.

It also depends on the customer to be honest. You'd have to hope someone would be wise enough to go with the breeder even if the pup won't be available for Xmas but then I am regularly surprised how irrationale people can be when it comes to dogs e.g. The tale of the two girls getting the Cavchons earlier.

Interesting though to hear one poster refer to it earlier as a "business model" for breeders. That is exactly what I would see it as.

I think there's also the fact that they are trying to price unsuitable owners out of the market. No breeder who has health tested, given the greatest of veterinary care, supplied the best food, etc. is going to be happy to sell a pup to someone who is going to stick the dog in the garden for the rest of its life and not interact with it, and such owners are likely to be put off by a hefty price tag. And where do these owners get pedigree puppies from when turned down by responsible breeders? Backyard breeders and puppy farms. And where do they find them? Advertising websites.

cruizer101

borderlinemeath wrote: »

The assumption that a mongrel or a cross breed is healthier is a myth. It all depends on parentage. Be that pure bred or cross. The parents can be just as unhealthy if not unhealthier, as they are allowed to breed randomly and without any health on genetic checks.
...

As for the puggle - crossing a dog like a pug with breathing issues with a dog that has the drive of the beagle is insane, and EVERY light skinned labradoodle I've met has skin or digestive issues, it's rife within them. Donedeal facilitates this type of indiscriminate cross breeding and normalises it so the lay person does not know the difference. It's sickening tbh.

Just to say I don't disagree with what you are saying. I don't approve of breeding of unhealthy dogs be they purebred or mongrel. and some mongrels may be unhealthier than some purebreeds. There should be far more regulation on dog breeding, and it should only be healthy dogs that are bred, but I don't think breed should come into it.

However in general it is the desire of humans to have specific breeds that leads to a lot of these genetic defects, and this is accentuated by breeds getting more and more specific. Ideally if there are to be breeds I think they should be quite broad: small terrier, large terrier, retriever, sighthound, scenthound etc..

Regarding the issue originally raised, I think the selling of dogs on donedeal is bad, I know there are genuine sellers but it does encourage the puppyfarm trade. Regarding designer mongrels such as puggle etc, this is a sad fact of reality that humans will breed dogs to get specific looks and without education of the fact that this is harmful to dogs it will continue to happen even if donedeal were to stop selling dogs. It is not donedeal specifically that is the problem it is vanity of humans.

sillysmiles

Lemlin wrote: »

Interesting though to hear one poster refer to it earlier as a "business model" for breeders. That is exactly what I would see it as.

Lemlin, I think it is OK to say it is a business model. But there is also a business model for the cheaper (IKC - not health checked pups) that people can buy, but the consumer must recognise to produce a cheaper product corners have to be cut (ie no health check*, not ensuring the best sire and just going with the dog of the same breed up the road).

(*by health checks I don't mind vaccinations etc, I mean proper health scoring of the parents as a predictive marker of the pups health)


Any of the breeders I've heard talk on here, breed occasionally to produce an animal for showing/working. They select one pup to keep and sell the remainder of the litter. If they make money out of it or cover cost - fair enough.

For the cheaper model - the animals are breed for the sake of producing pups to make money. Or there is a liter of pups because someone didn't bother spaying their bitch and now they need to sell/get rid of the pups. They make a few quid on it, not a lot - but then they didn't put a lot of money into it. They have covered their costs and aren't in any way disenfranchised and in no way feel need to spay the bitch - "cos well sure it's it grand"

To me that is the key difference - the ethics and the welfare of the animals first not the desires of the owner/potential buyer.

Lemlin

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Lemlin you have often spoke of your own "business model" which doesn't involve IKC registration and your "leave her at it" approach to your bitch in the early stages of the pups life. The fact that your local vet is so much cheaper than those that live in Dublin. I remember debating on the very thread that went down a slippery slope. You debated that the prices of ferries shouldn't be included as a "cost" even though it was to do with winning show titles for the bitch. You queried where a poster had to take their holidays around whelping and then pay somebody to check on their pups when they did have to return to work. You queried EVERY little cost, even when Knine told you her bitch had to be sectioned and that her bitch was AI'd as the sire was the best mate and that cost money. And yet you STILL make out that these posters are in it for profit when they have stated they do far more when breeding and have far more incidental costs that you do. It's the same argument time and again, "they're profiteering" when they state that they have significant costs. While you might be targeting breed club breeders in general, it's still targeted at the breeders replying to you on this thread.

It was only a matter of time before you got your own way and brought the argument down to this level again:(

Where did I make accusations against any posters here? As I've said, a bit of balance is needed. I'm not making accusations against any posters. I've already said that posters like Knine and Andreac go to a huge effort but I wouldn't believe that every breeder registered with a breed club does the same.

I've asked a simple question - why don't the breed clubs come together to look at lowering prices so that DD is not the easier option for people? I'm sorry if people feel this is aimed at posters but it’s an honest question.

I also don't see the need for the personal attack and dragging up old threads. I'll leave it here because it appears that posters can't look past my previous posts and answer a legitimate question I feel I am asking.

Evac101

Honestly, this thread has flown along since the tracker decided not to keep me updated. Lot's of comments pro and con BYB/Pure bred/mongrel/rescue/etc. Lot's of people negatively commenting on DD. I'm observing this from a distance to a certain extent and honestly, I can't understand why.

While some responsibility is DD's undoubtedly, the majority of the fault is unscrupulous or ignorant breeding in conjunction with a lack of strong legislation. People here are expressing some very negative opinions regarding DD, and obviously they're entitled to their own opinions, but if DD closed it's pets section tomorrow does anyone think this would resolve the issue. While they may be the most visible part of the equation they're neither the cause, nor part of the solution, unless the other two factors are addressed.

Puppy farms need to be regulated, fined and restricted out of existence, animal owners (not just dog owners) need to be educated regarding responsible breeding and subsidised neutering (and education regarding the benefits of neutering) need to be propagated more widely. DD pet's section is a symptom of the underlying problems - it's regrettable that it exists but if they're not selling them, someone else will, until the base issues are resolved. Once that has occurred places like the DD pets section can evolve to be a useful tool for breeders and prospective owners to make initial contact (followed by wooing, wining and dining).

borderlinemeath

Lemlin wrote: »

Where did I make accusations against any posters here? As I've said, a bit of balance is needed. I'm not making accusations against any posters. I've already said that posters like Knine and Andreac go to a huge effort but I wouldn't believe that every breeder registered with a breed club does the same.

I've asked a simple question - why don't the breed clubs come together to look at lowering prices so that DD is not the easier option for people? I'm sorry if people feel this is aimed at posters but it’s an honest question.

I also don't see the need for the personal attack and dragging up old threads. I'll leave it here because it appears that posters can't look past my previous posts and answer a legitimate question I feel I am asking.

Because you keep asking the same questions time and time again. Whatever the thread. If they're charging what you consider to be too much your take it as "profiteering". Honestly, I don't breed and I'm sick of seeing the same old rehash every time!

AryaStark

223vmax wrote: »

Same principle applies to second hand car market. So why don't we ban the sale of second hand cars?

We are talking about puppies here not metal! Big difference, I am sure the second hand cars are not being mistreated or breed without any thoughts on the consequences!

ACD

I was really hesitating to post here, since it seems to be going in circles, but I'll try anyway. Some people here talk about how reputable breeders are profiteering etc, selling pups for x amount of money and how should they lower their prices. I think those people really have no idea how much it all costs. The expenses doesn't occur only when you have a litter, it starts with purchasing the foundation bitch. A good quality bitch after health tested and titled parents can cost you at least in my breed around 1000 Euro, plus she usually isn't living next door so plus travel expenses.

Then you have general expenses like vaccination worming etc. so let's say a 100E and food + supplements cca 400-500E. Then you have shows (or field trials, obedience or anything else you do to prove your bitch is worthy of breeding). I show, so will use showing as an example. On average you attend 10 shows a year, usually the cost is around 100E (entry fee + travel cost). Now that's only the first year. Before people say that I shouldn't count food- you're counting all breeders profits, so let's count all expenses and good quality food for breeding bitches isn't cheap.

The second year you have again vet care and food, shows, plus health tests for the bitch. Hip and elbow scores costs around 350E, DNA tests for PRA+PLL cca 100E.

Third year you decide the bitch is worthy and start looking for a stud dog. Stud fees in my breed are 800+, and again good quality stud may not live up the road so let's add 200E travel costs.
The bitch still needs her care so vet+ food for the year. If I do the total here, I'm around 6000E in already.

Now the bitch has been mated and you go for a scan to confirm pregnancy- cca 40E. Some people do X-rays to get a pup count so another 60E. Extra food for mum while pregnant and when she's nursing can be up to 4 times her normal amount so add that. Little things for pups like extra vet bed, heat pads etc anywhere between 100-200E. Food for pups from weaning till 8 weeks old cca 100E.
Microchips + vaccination 45 per pup (we had 8 so 460E.) Worming for litter and mum cca 60E. Registration+ endorsements 30 per pup (so 240E)
So again total here- slightly over 7000 Euro. Divided by 8 pups- 875Euro per pup. So this would be the price to just break even.

I'd say most reputable breeders don't breed the bitch more than 2-3 times and they provide for her for a good few years after she's retired from showing and breeding, so I can't honestly see how they could justify selling pups for DD prices.

I know some will say that you don't have to show, or don't have to do this and that, but in my opinion any breeding stock should be proven worthy in some field, be it shows, sports or anything else.

Lemlin

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Because you keep asking the same questions time and time again. Whatever the thread. If they're charging what you consider to be too much your take it as "profiteering". Honestly, I don't breed and I'm sick of seeing the same old rehash every time!

Show me a thread where I have previously asked why breeders do not lower prices to combat DD.

Lemlin

ACD wrote: »

I was really hesitating to post here, since it seems to be going in circles, but I'll try anyway. Some people here talk about how reputable breeders are profiteering etc, selling pups for x amount of money and how should they lower their prices. I think those people really have no idea how much it all costs. The expenses doesn't occur only when you have a litter, it starts with purchasing the foundation bitch. A good quality bitch after health tested and titled parents can cost you at least in my breed around 1000 Euro, plus she usually isn't living next door so plus travel expenses.

Then you have general expenses like vaccination worming etc. so let's say a 100E and food + supplements cca 400-500E. Then you have shows (or field trials, obedience or anything else you do to prove your bitch is worthy of breeding). I show, so will use showing as an example. On average you attend 10 shows a year, usually the cost is around 100E (entry fee + travel cost). Now that's only the first year. Before people say that I shouldn't count food- you're counting all breeders profits, so let's count all expenses and good quality food for breeding bitches isn't cheap.

The second year you have again vet care and food, shows, plus health tests for the bitch. Hip and elbow scores costs around 350E, DNA tests for PRA+PLL cca 100E.

Third year you decide the bitch is worthy and start looking for a stud dog. Stud fees in my breed are 800+, and again good quality stud may not live up the road so let's add 200E travel costs.
The bitch still needs her care so vet+ food for the year. If I do the total here, I'm around 6000E in already.

Now the bitch has been mated and you go for a scan to confirm pregnancy- cca 40E. Some people do X-rays to get a pup count so another 60E. Extra food for mum while pregnant and when she's nursing can be up to 4 times her normal amount so add that. Little things for pups like extra vet bed, heat pads etc anywhere between 100-200E. Food for pups from weaning till 8 weeks old cca 100E.
Microchips + vaccination 45 per pup (we had 8 so 460E.) Worming for litter and mum cca 60E. Registration+ endorsements 30 per pup (so 240E)
So again total here- slightly over 7000 Euro. Divided by 8 pups- 875Euro per pup. So this would be the price to just break even.

I'd say most reputable breeders don't breed the bitch more than 2-3 times and they provide for her for a good few years after she's retired from showing and breeding, so I can't honestly see how they could justify selling pups for DD prices.

I know some will say that you don't have to show, or don't have to do this and that, but in my opinion any breeding stock should be proven worthy in some field, be it shows, sports or anything else.

How many of these costs do you actually incur because you breed pups though and how many of them would you have incurred in the course of your hobby of showing dogs? My opinion is that, included in the cost of a litter, should only be costs directly related to that litter. A number of the costs above you would have incurred anyway in the course of your hobby, regardless of whether you breed or not. It is therefore incorrect to list them as costs of breeding.

If a man breeds his hunting dog, should he include the cost of every shortgun cartridge and his shotgun as a breeding expense?

I'll leave it there as this thread is way off topic. That was not my intention regardless of what accusations others make.

borderlinemeath

Don't try to sidestep, I'm saying you always bring the topic back to "profiteering"

These are your posts on this thread - same old, same old

I'm talking here about people being pushed to DD because the high prices that some reputable breeders charge, which in my opinion is set to make profit, makes a dog of that type unaffordable for them.

But why charge the high price if they aren't trying to make a profit?

As I've said, I fail to see how some breeders can claim they aren't making a profit from the pups they are selling.

As I've said, I can't see how someone with 7-8 Labrador pups that is charging €600 a pup is not making a profit.

ACD

Lemlin wrote: »

How many of these costs do you actually incur because you breed pups though and how many of them would you have incurred in the course of your hobby of showing dogs? My opinion is that, included in the cost of a litter, should only be costs directly related to that litter. A number of the costs above you would have incurred anyway in the course of your hobby, regardless of whether you breed or not. It is therefore incorrect to list them as costs of breeding.

If a man breeds his hunting dog, should he include the cost of every shortgun cartridge and his shotgun as a breeding expense?

I'll leave it there as this thread is way off topic. That was not my intention regardless of what accusations others make.

Showing is not only a hobby, originally dog shows were meant for evaluation of breeding stock. As I said, the dog/bitch should prove that they are worthy of breeding, shows are to evaluate conformation. If you own working breed, you can do working trials to prove that the dog is worthy. And yes, you should include the cost of the trials in the breeding costs, since they are related to it -you're trying to prove that your dog is worthy of breeding. If you don't show or work your dog in some way how else are you going to find out if they have anything to offer to better the breed?

Lemlin

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Don't try to sidestep, I'm saying you always bring the topic back to "profiteering"

These are your posts on this thread - same old, same old

No sidestepping. That post you have quoted was in relation to me asking why prices could not be lowered, you're the one pulling one part of my argument out of context.

ACD wrote: »

Showing is not only a hobby, originally dog shows were meant for evaluation of breeding stock. As I said, the dog/bitch should prove that they are worthy of breeding, shows are to evaluate conformation. If you own working breed, you can do working trials to prove that the dog is worthy. And yes, you should include the cost of the trials in the breeding costs, since they are related to it -you're trying to prove that your dog is worthy of breeding. If you don't show or work your dog in some way how else are you going to find out if they have anything to offer to better the breed?

So dog shows are for the sole purpose of confirming that dogs are worthy of breeding? I'd still stand by that alot of the costs listed are not direct costs of breeding. They are cost of having a dog and showing it. The same way as man who hunts will have the costs of his gun and cartridges but wouldn't include them as breeding costs when selling pups for hunting yet it is the hunting which is the skill that people buy the pups for.

borderlinemeath

Lemlin wrote: »

No sidestepping. That post you have quoted was in relation to me asking why prices could not be lowered, you're the one pulling one part of my argument out of context.

I'm absolutely not. I've said in my last few posts that you always bring these threads back to profiteering by reputable breeders that don't cut corners. I'm not going to go back through every thread but it's a common theme, I've been in some of the debates.

And I haven't quoted "a post" - there's 4 posts there, I just didn't wrap them in single quotes. They're all from this thread alone where you try and bring the topic once more back to breeders profiteering. You wrote the posts, I didn't. Your argument always comes back to this context - no matter how disconnected the original topic might be, this was about where to source a reputable puppy, to which the OP was warned about DD, yet you brought it around to breeding and breeders charging too much as a reason for people to purchase from DD.

fiounnalbe

What is the problem with reputable breeders making some profit? They should be rewarded for the hard work they do.

its not cheap getting proper hip scoring,elbow scoring, cerf and baer tests - whatever is needed for that breed. Its not cheap taking really good care of the bitch - high quality food, suitable nesting area etc. Its not cheap to microchip vaccinate feed (high quality puppy feed) worm and flea treat properly puppies. Never mind the pricelessness of socialising the pups from a really young age so that they grow up stable dogs....its a big effort, so that when people buy the pups they get the best possible example of that breed they can and so that the breed lines continue healthly.

A few hundred euro extra for all this is well worth it.

People breeding willy nilly with no health checks but ikc registered, well you might hit lucky and get a healthy pup, or you might pay 300 euro for one riddled with the most common breed diseases cos no one bothered checking. Its not worth the risk in my opinion. Buying dogs from people who dont bother with health checks is also fueling them to breed like this again, if they have a genetic problem theyre passing on, think of all those future poor dogs suffering from these diseases, needless pain that all could have been avoided.

DBB

Thread closed pending mod review.
Thanks.
DBB

DBB

Okay folks,
Having had a chance to read through this thread, I am reopening it on one condition:
that the posts go back on topic, and that the OP's original question is addressed, and no more.

There has been some unbelievable soap-boxing in this thread, repeating the same old arguments, and bringing yet another thread on the topic of pups/breeding off-topic, which I will address by PM as if I write what I'd like to in public, I'd get myself banned.

So, from now on, there is to be NO MORE DISCUSSION of Donedeal, or anything related to it.
By all means, advise the OP about what to look out for when choosing a breeder, and later, a pup, but the debate about Donedeal ends here because I'm not alone in having had enough of the same old bloody chestnuts being thrown up YET AGAIN, and another thread being thrown off-course YET AGAIN.

Let there be no confusion: if there is one more post discussing Donedeal and related topics, I WILL NOT bother issuing cards, I will issue bans.

Thanks,
DBB

My advice is , if you can rescue a dog go for that. Chances are if you go to a responsible breeder you will pay huge costs. If your dog gets sick. They say that they will take it back. But lets face it, your not going to return your dog like a faulty TV.

Inexile

I have never brought a pup but if I was I would be looking for the relevant health checks if it was a pedigree. After that regardless if was a pedigree or a cross bred I would be looking for a pup that has been well socialised. Which means I would be looking for pups coming for a home that doesn't have multiple litters, have access to the house, look comfortable in a house and if it is to be a child's pet have been handled by children already.

I would also contact my local vets as they often have notices re pups available and they may, though they may not wish to, be able to give some guidance on the pups or the breeder/owner.

DerTierarzt

Knine wrote: »

Same old argument which you seem to have an issue with Lemlin. It costs the same amount of money to produce a high quality pet puppy as it does to produce a Champion puppy. I'm not going into those costs yet again. You get what you pay for & finding a breeder with healthy tested puppies & full aftersales backup

OP, to be fair, considering that puppy is being sold probably (I'm guessing from previous posts) at 3 months' of age, the costs should actually be the same if cared for correctly, whether the puppy is purebred or a crossbreed, no?

Hip scoring for the British Veterinary Association or Kennel Club scheme for instance only is valid once greater than one year of age. Unless certain breeders are using genetic tests (OP if considering a specific breed demand your breeder supply you with independent certification of testing for said diseases). The only other costs would be related to reproduction (stud fees, travel, artificial insemination etc.) which would account for the discrepancy in price between a purebred and crossbred puppy.

What should be consistent for all puppies is preventative medicine (vaccinations, antiparasitics), and good husbandry.

muddypaws

DerTierarzt wrote: »

To be fair, considering that puppy is being sold probably (I'm guessing from previous posts) at 3 months' of age, the costs should actually be the same if cared for correctly, whether the puppy is purebred or a crossbreed, no?

Hip scoring for the British Veterinary Association or Kennel Club scheme for instance only is valid once greater than one year of age. Unless certain breeders are using genetic tests. The only other costs would be related to reproduction (stud fees, travel, artificial insemination etc.).

What should be consistent for all puppies is preventative medicine (vaccinations, antiparasitics), and good husbandry.

No, the puppy isn't the one that is hip scored/eye tested or any other genetic tests that need to be done. It is the parents that have those tests done, and breeders of crossbreeds will most definitely not be doing those tests before breeding, so won't be incurring the costs. And if the tests show that the adult dog isn't suitable for breeding, then the breeder won't use them.

Knine

If I said what I wanted to say I would probably get a ban so I will say nothing.

Gael23

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/new-rules-on-selling-pets-to-come-into-force-671814.html
Related story to this topic

lampylady

if not DD where can you go to find breeders? is there a separate website?

sillysmiles

See post #2

andreac wrote: »

If you are looking for a certain breed then contact the specific breed club and get Information on breeders through there.

Just ensure your breeder health tests both parents and do not go near a breeder that doesn't.

The Ikc will also give you information and contacts.