Greg Dyke outlines new reforms to protect English talent

Godot.

- Upping the homegrown quota from a 25 man squad from 8 to 12

- Lowering the homegrown age rules to training with an English club 3 years before their 18th birthday rather than 3 before their 21st birthday (current rules), so players like Fabregas can't be counted

- Tightening Non-EU player rules so those getting into the Premier League who haven't got X amount of international caps can't get through on appeal

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/mar/23/greg-dyke-fa-overseas-player-quotas

Mars Bar

When does this come in to effect?

England are not long focusing on developing technical players so that crop of players won't be visible for another five years at least. I'd expect English football to struggle for a while, probably lose a Champions League slot before seeing an uprise with these rules.

Edit: I see it's 2016/2017.

brianregan09

The premier league will never pass this

KingdomYid

Hopefully this will happen.

Liam O

Could see Sky Sports being fairly peeved at this.

Billy86

If it passes, the Premier League will suffer for it; a truly cowardly response to competition.

Jelle1880

So instead of mediocre foreigners there will be more mediocre English players.

As long as England keeps lagging behind Germany, Italy and Spain when it comes to coaching nothing will change. These countries have respectively 35.000, 30.000 and 25.000 Uefa A, B and Pro Licence coaches.

England have less than 6000.

Harry Palmr

Liverpool are fairly comfortable with any changes.

Seniors (players who are also registered with U21s listed separately) English 9 (of 25)
U21s English 16 (including players on loans) (of 26)
U18s English 18 (of 23)

~Rebel~

Jelle1880 wrote: »

So instead of mediocre foreigners there will be more mediocre English players.

As long as England keeps lagging behind Germany, Italy and Spain when it comes to coaching nothing will change. These countries have respectively 35.000, 30.000 and 25.000 Uefa A, B and Pro Licence coaches.

England have less than 6000.

This should help that though...If clubs will have to rely on local talent more, there's a greater motivation to develop coaching at younger ages to form your own talent, rather than buying pre-formed technical players cheap from abroad.

Giggsy11

This rule might have significant impact on PL brand. It might help England NT in the long run but can't see it helping league quality at all.

Also with the rule, Tightening Non-EU player rules so those getting into the Premier League who haven't got X amount of international caps can't get through on appeal, does it mean PL teams can't sign any 18 year old Non EU players? as more often than not they don't play the required quota of games.

Lovely Bloke

International Football is fighting a losing battle.

8-10

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Liverpool are fairly comfortable with any changes.

Seniors (players who are also registered with U21s listed separately) English 9 (of 25)
U21s English 16 (including players on loans) (of 26)
U18s English 18 (of 23)

Need to get Hendo and Sterling to sign those contracts though.

Won't the lowering of the age hamper Irish players now? They can't go over before they're 15 and now if they do go at 16 they won't be homegrown so will be harder to compete.

Maximus Alexander

Can this be imposed on the PL if they don't agree to it? Because I can't imagine why they'd agree to it.

MagicIRL

Does this not go against EU employment law?

Lovely Bloke

8-10 wrote: »

Need to get Hendo and Sterling to sign those contracts though.

Won't the lowering of the age hamper Irish players now? They can't go over before they're 15 and now if they do go at 16 they won't be homegrown so will be harder to compete.

Oh boo hoo, we don't have the English System to develop our kids any more.

Maybe the FAI will step up to the mark.

Oh wait.

CSF

MagicIRL wrote: »

Does this not go against EU employment law?

No more than the rules already in place.

As for the competition issue, in Russia a non-EU restricted country, the rules to safeguard the national team are much tighter. 4 Russians on the pitch for all teams at all times.

Unless Football Manager 2015 is lying to me and screwing over my Dinamo Moscow save.

Maximus Alexander

MagicIRL wrote: »

Does this not go against EU employment law?

I think they get away with it because they technically avoid the issue of nationality - it's not about where you're from, but where you trained.

rob316

The PL will piss from a height on this.

grumpymunster

As Jelle1880 says it is coaching that is needed not more daft rules.

England did not qualify for the World Cup in 1974, 1978 and 1994 when the old first division and fledgling premier league was stocked mainly by English players. It is indeed quality not quantity that counts but if the coaches are there then the numbers will follow. Rather ironic that Dyke is so upset about things now seen as he helped create the monster that is the PL, karma is a bitch.

Dozen Wicked Words

The same FA pitching this idea to encourage English talent that hired Aidy Boothroyd as coach of Under 20s.

MR NINE

I find it funny that the fa will go to these lengths to try and help the national teams prospects and yet have no qualms appointing roy hodgson as manager.

Pro. F

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

The same FA pitching this idea to encourage English talent that hired Aidy Boothroyd as coach of Under 20s.

I was listening to a podcast interview with him the other week. I was determined to go in with an open mind and see if he had reformed. He was putting the effort in to sound like he wasn't a caveman, but it still shone through in the end. The highlight was him saying that all players at the top of the game are tall.

Harry Palmr

Just looking through the current player lists - all players 21 or under who have an U21s number are including in the U21 list even if they also have a senior number.

Liverpool - Seniors 9 (including loans) U21s 16 (including loans) of 26 U18s 18 of 23

Man Utd - Seniors 11 (including loans) U21s 10 (including loans) of 16 U18s 13 of 19

Man City - Seniors 6 (including loans) U21s 16 (including loans) of 29, U18s 16 of 28

Chelsea - Seniors 3 (including loans) U21s 19 (including loans) of 25 U18s 19 of 29

Arsenal - Seniors 9 (including loans) U21s 19 (including loans) of 26 U18s 16 of 22

Spurs - Seniors 7 (including loans) of 30 U21s 16 (including loans) of 23 U18s 17 of 23

greendom

It's a bit like an import tax to make home made products cheaper. It's not going to make the home made stuff any better, so will have little impact on the quality of the England team

Ferris_Bueller

From an English football point of view I would say it's a good thing, but from the Premier Leagues point of view it is a bad thing. It will surely make the elite clubs focus on developing their own players more and invest more money into youth structures, coaching, facilities etc. which you would think will have a knock on effect too, but for the PL I can see it meaning losing their 4th CL spot even if it is just temporarily, the quality will surely be lowered until (if they get there!) England starts producing world class players.

grumpymunster

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

From an English football point of view I would say it's a good thing, but from the Premier Leagues point of view it is a bad thing. It will surely make the elite clubs focus on developing their own players more and invest more money into youth structures, coaching, facilities etc. which you would think will have a knock on effect too, but for the PL I can see it meaning losing their 4th CL spot even if it is just temporarily, the quality will surely be lowered until (if they get there!) England starts producing world class players.

Not really as most PL clubs have players in the academies from all over the world and that will not change. Most PL clubs have excellent facilities as it stands for youths so this rule wont change that neither.

doncarlos

8-10 wrote: »

Won't the lowering of the age hamper Irish players now? They can't go over before they're 15 and now if they do go at 16 they won't be homegrown so will be harder to compete.

Hamper??? Are you kidding me? It will help Irish players as they can stay at home and finish their education instead of being treated like a commodity that will be disposed of at the earliest opportunity.

8-10

doncarlos wrote: »

Hamper??? Are you kidding me? It will help Irish players as they can stay at home and finish their education instead of being treated like a commodity that will be disposed of at the earliest opportunity.

They're still educated in the UK

tastyt

Jeez if we thought English players are ridiculously overpriced already it's going to be comical after this.

CSF

8-10 wrote: »

They're still educated in the UK

To minimum requirements usually based on what I've heard from lads who've failed over there and been spat out.

Gringo180

Slightly off topic but is it just me or does very few English players actually go abroad to play? Suppose there price tags would put off potential buyers on the continent.

Dempsey

The chickens are coming home to roost. A 5bn contract and very little appetite by PL clubs to develop their own players and stick by them during the transition phase between youth and first team football. With the money at stake for clubs, short term gains outweight the risks of long term development.

It will take more than these changes to change attitudes of club owners

Harry Palmr

Gringo180 wrote: »

Slightly off topic but is it just me or does very few English players actually go abroad to play? Suppose there price tags would put off potential buyers on the continent.

Back when the big money was in Italy, Spain and Germany (and Monaco) players did leave but now the boots on the other foot.

dfx-

Listening to his interview on 5 live last night, it seemed like a lot of hot air that depended on consensus from the Premier League.

The FA can't fix the problem of homegrown players at the highest level, it'll take a financial crisis/punctured TV deal to force the Premier League teams to downsize. The FA are on the outside and it came very much across from the interview.

The lower sides in La Liga are giving all sorts of opportunities to youth players because it's the way to compete. The need is then put upon good coaching to produce the players, there is no such pressure in multimillion euro academies like at City or Chelsea.-

Giggsy11

City are one of the club that would need some persuading to buy into the proposals. The Blues currently have six home grown players in their Premier League squad of 25.

Of those, Frank Lampard is off to New York City in summer while James Milner is also expected to leave; Dedryck Boyata and Gael Clichy would not count as home grown under Dyke's new thinking; and Richard Wright, who turns 38 in November.

Joe Hart would then be the only home grown (but not club trained) player currently in the first team squad, with 11 more places expected to be filled.

The Blues have a number of academy prospects, although a number of their leading starlets would fall foul of the proposed home grown rules, having only joined the club when regulations allowed them to, aged 16 at the earliest.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/how-greg-dykes-harry-kane-8908891

Only 1 home grown player as per new regulations and they have to buy 11 more and comply with FFP.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Giggsy11 wrote: »

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/how-greg-dykes-harry-kane-8908891

Only 1 home grown player as per new regulations and they have to buy 11 more and comply with FFP.

They have 4 more years to get up to the 12 eligible players.

Giggsy11

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

They have 4 more years to get up to the 12 eligible players.

Read it wrong, thought it was from 2016-17 season.

bucketybuck

Why does the FA need to focus on the premier league? I know its the highest level but they could still do a lot of good by directing their efforts at the leagues they do have some clout in, namely those below the Premier league.

If they help develop good young players in the lower leagues you will inevitably see more of those players make their way to the highest levels in the usual fashion, by the biggest clubs buying them. If there is a wealth of talent playing in the championship you think the biggest clubs wouldn't be looking at them?

CSF

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why does the FA need to focus on the premier league? I know its the highest level but they could still do a lot of good by directing their efforts at the leagues they do have some clout in, namely those below the Premier league.

If they help develop good young players in the lower leagues you will inevitably see more of those players make their way to the highest levels in the usual fashion, by the biggest clubs buying them. If there is a wealth of talent playing in the championship you think the biggest clubs wouldn't be looking at them?

How would you go about doing that?

bucketybuck

CSF wrote: »

How would you go about doing that?

My first step would be to apply for Greg Dykes job.

Nalz

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

The same FA pitching this idea to encourage English talent that hired Aidy Boothroyd as coach of Under 20s.

Pardon my ignorance here, can someone explain this to me?

Mars Bar

CSF wrote: »

How would you go about doing that?

Coach the coaches.

Beefy78

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why does the FA need to focus on the premier league? I know its the highest level but they could still do a lot of good by directing their efforts at the leagues they do have some clout in, namely those below the Premier league.

If they help develop good young players in the lower leagues you will inevitably see more of those players make their way to the highest levels in the usual fashion, by the biggest clubs buying them. If there is a wealth of talent playing in the championship you think the biggest clubs wouldn't be looking at them?

Because of EPPP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Player_Performance_Plan

Essentially the FA have already created a situation where the best youth players are pretty much free to move to clubs with better coaches and facilities (which obviously tend to be the Premier League clubs). therefore any significant progress in terms of increasing the quality of player being produced has to be concentrated at Premier League level.

I think EPPP has actually got a lot of merit to it but even as a supporter of it I recognise that it has discouraged a number of smaller clubs from making any real investment into youth football because they run the risk of losing any players they develope for next to no upfront fee.

CSF

Mars Bar wrote: »

Coach the coaches.

That helps everyone equally though. No particular focus on the lower divisions like the guy was suggesting.

CSF

bucketybuck wrote: »

My first step would be to apply for Greg Dykes job.

Ok, and what steps after that, assuming you were successful?

Cantona's Collars

Great read here.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2402889-premier-league-clubs-need-to-stop-whining-and-get-back-to-basics?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming-UK

"What caused the demise of English clubs in Europe this season?

I asked Manuel Pellegrini after Manchester City became the last Premier League club to bid farewell to the Champions League, and while admitting they were soundly beaten by a much superior Barcelona side, he was also swift to bemoan a punishing winter schedule, tiring pitches and financial fair play regulations, which he claims have inhibited the strengthening of his squad.

The problem is that not all the facts back him up.

The Manchester City boss told me that a punishing schedule in December and January was inevitably going to take its toll. His side, he claimed, played nine games in both December and January. If true, that would certainly be a punishing programme.

Unfortunately, it isn’t; he is mistaken. In December 2014, City played seven games, six in the Premier League and against Roma in the Champions League. In January, they played six times, four in the PL and twice in the FA Cup.

Meanwhile, Barcelona, despite having a short break over Christmas—more on that later—still managed to fit in six games in December (three in La Liga, two in the Copa del Rey and one in the Champions League) before closing down on December 20 after having thumped five past Cordoba.

January saw them play eight games (four in La Liga and four in Copa del Rey)—two more than Manchester City.

So maybe the difference is that players in the Spanish league return from the Christmas break revitalised, reinvigorated, with a spring in their step and a sparkle in their eye.

Once again, however, the facts don’t quite bear that out. The Barcelona players, Messi apart, returned to training on December 30, which means their break was effectively just over a week. Messi, incidentally, returned on January 2.

There is also another school of thought that while Premier League players do not get a Christmas break, the third round of the FA Cup is very often used by clubs as a chance to give their stars a rest and rotate their line-ups.

In truth, I don’t think the lack of a break, the hardness of the pitches or any manner of other excuses are why English clubs are falling short on the European stage.

I have always maintained that the top clubs in England are all suffering from what I like to call a "full belly," by which I mean a tendency to try to buy your way out of trouble rather than concentrate on tactics, technique or the details and minutiae that can make the difference.

Indeed, when you’ve got loadsamoney, why would you bother looking for a fiver you might have dropped down the sofa when you can just go to the cashpoint?

Don’t just take my word for it. Gary Neville has said precisely the same thing. Teams are not spending enough time and effort on preparing themselves correctly, preferring instead to go shopping for talent. The less affluent clubs can’t do this, so they have to concentrate more on preparation, detail and the collective team effort.

“It’s incredible," Neville told Sky Sports. "We’re going to have to have a good long look at ourselves.

"And I have to say we’re getting embarrassed year in, year out at the moment."

The moneyed sides look more to the individual efforts of their stars to dig them out of a hole.

Nor are foreign coaches immune to it. While at Villarreal, Pellegrini turned a small-town side into an awesome team, and he did it with an offensive ethic based on the work of the collective. When Juan Roman Riquelme declined to join the party, as great a player as he undoubtedly was, he was ejected.

Many of Pellegrini’s ideas while he was at Villarreal were in fact copied by Pep Guardiola when he took charge at Barcelona, and the Bayern Munich manager has frequently declared himself an admirer of the Chilean coach.

And while you can still see some signs of it in Pellegrini’s line-up, such as a defensive line high up on the edge of the penalty spot rather than closer to the six-yard box, when you hear him bemoaning that FFP rules have prevented him from strengthening his squad, you feel that he too has, to a large extent, fallen into the same trap.

Little by little, the plans and tactics many foreign coaches bring to clubs fall by the wayside as they give way to chequebook coaching.

But that isn’t all. Many of the players are drawn into a world where physicality, strength and stamina, rather than guile and technique, are the order of the day. That is what most fans want, so who is there to blame if you want to play the blame game?

Arsenal and Manchester City are a case in point. In the case of Chelsea, it’s more about a side with a European way of playing so ingrained in them that they find themselves unable to switch to a new system when faced with having to find the most effective way to play against 10 men.

The fact is that Jose Mourinho is, by nature, defensive. When required to look to the offensive, he finds himself looking toward individual brilliance rather than the collective team effort.

Rotation, or rather the lack of it, is something that clubs in England need to address more closely, and Chelsea in particular need to look at using their full squad more efficiently.

Finally, clubs need to get away from the excuse-ridden culture that permeates English football, in that it’s always someone else’s fault, be it the referee, the pitch, the fact that it’s a Mickey Mouse tournament or anything else given as a reason to excuse failing to come up to the mark.

Then, and only then, we might see English football return to the top table in Europe."

Beefy78

This is a seperate issue. I think too much is being made of performance in a cup competition. The English clubs should have done better but does anyone actually believe that PSG and Monaco are better sides than Chelsea and Arsenal? The right side with the right tactics won both games but if they were replayed the two English sides could have gone through.

The winter break issue I think factors in more towards the end of the season but it is a nice easy excuse for managers to use if they underperform in Europe. If there was a break in England then it would be something else's fault.

I think the bigger problem for the top English sides is the rising standard of some of the mid-table Clubs due to their increase financial strength. Barcelona may have played the same number of games as City over the previous couple of months but I watched a fair few of those games and they were strolls with 70% possession where Barca barely had to get out of second gear. City don't have that luxury when they play West Ham or Southampton or Stoke because those sides will beat them if they're not playing at their best.

Harry Palmr

Pelligrini is an idiot looking for an easy excuse, its also why his City side look destined to be in trouble (though not just because of his lack of tactical nouse) in the CL for years to come or as long as the current mentality is what decides player and coaching policy.

No one said ELP clubs won the CL several times despite the lack of a winter break or the rush of games that happen over Christmas in tough conditions.

They won because they were sides managed by coaches who understood how to play a two-legged European tie and of course had the slices of good luck required to reach any final.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Beefy78 wrote: »

This is a seperate issue. I think too much is being made of performance in a cup competition. The English clubs should have done better but does anyone actually believe that PSG and Monaco are better sides than Chelsea and Arsenal? The right side with the right tactics won both games but if they were replayed the two English sides could have gone through.

The winter break issue I think factors in more towards the end of the season but it is a nice easy excuse for managers to use if they underperform in Europe. If there was a break in England then it would be something else's fault.

I think the bigger problem for the top English sides is the rising standard of some of the mid-table Clubs due to their increase financial strength. Barcelona may have played the same number of games as City over the previous couple of months but I watched a fair few of those games and they were strolls with 70% possession where Barca barely had to get out of second gear. City don't have that luxury when they play West Ham or Southampton or Stoke because those sides will beat them if they're not playing at their best.

I'd say Barcelona's games seem relatively easy because they are so good.They had a bit of stroll agaisnt City over the 2 legs aswell.The weaker a team you are the more difficult games you will play.


The top 2 teams in Spain have lost 10 out of 56 league games this season.The top 2 teams in England have lost 7 out of 59 league games this season which indicates to me that the Spanish league is good deal more difficult than people would think based on the media's perceptions in the UK and Ireland.

sky88

I think the problem in England and Ireland are the coaches are just not good enough at youth level overall.

Mars Bar

CSF wrote: »

That helps everyone equally though. No particular focus on the lower divisions like the guy was suggesting.

Financial allowances to lower league clubs with academies to train and educate their coaches. Unfortunately, developing technical players isn't covered to a huge degree in many of those coaching courses so it might be a fruitless task.

Talent identification courses might actually be more useful. It would help coaches at the lower level of the game to look for the technical ability of players so they aren't always fancying the tall and athletic players who can't play ball. You can have tall and athletic technical players and small and athletic technical players. Identifying the players who master the ball would go a long way and then it's about educating the coach to develop those players to their best ability.